It was pointed out to me expressly that Sirany's experiments were inadequate for the reasons which I have already mentioned in part and that they were of the opinion that they were in no way sufficient to prove the practical suitability of the Berka method. Above all this was so for the reason that Sirany only carried on the experiment for four days and the Luftwaffe wanted to have a method which could be used and would be found valuable, especially if sea distress lasted for a longer period.
For that reason only such a method could be introduced, could be considered for introduction. At that time, 12 days were requested as the minimum requirement to prove the value of such a method for the reason that at that time several cases of sea distress became known who were saved after 12 days. So that I shall not be misunderstood, the requirement was that the method to be introduced could be taken for 12 consecutive days without harming, damaging, the health of the person. The conditions of the experiment were, as far as possible, to be made the same as those existing in sea distress, but only in respect to the amount of water and food; on the other hand, everything else that is at a disadvantage during sea distress, that is the influence of the climate, cold, heat, changes in the weather, etc., the wind which lets the salt of sea water, affect the person by forming a crust on the skin; the inability to sleep in the rescue boat, all these conditions of course were to prevail during the experiments. I have discussed these questions with Becker-Freyseng, these questions which wore of importance for my experiments. We also discussed the theoretical basis. He called to my attention specifically the statement of -Schaefer which were given in some kind of a report, which was available in a typewritten copy, and also he pointed out to me that Schaefer had made calculations about a certain amount of sea water that could be tolerated for 12 days, but, of course, not without causing changes in the water balance. The question was not whether smaller amount of sea water could be given for a longer period of time, and whether with about 500 cubic centimeters of sea water, one could live for a certain period of time. Our aviators, at that time, were provided with a very small amount of water supply which lasted for only two days. If now, one of them was out for eight or ten days more, drinking small amounts of sea water against his thirst, he had then, of course, the advantage not to endanger his health seriously, and he could survive at sea. The assumption, of course, was also at that time that the Schaefer Preparations would not be introduced.
Well, he told me that this maximum limit of 12 days was a desirable aim in some form or another, but it should not be forced and in the different experimental groups I should try to approach that aim to the extent as I could take the responsibility from the medical point of view examining the persons. We then discussed the question where the danger limit to the loss of water begins, where normally this borderline is, and where one could normally assume that life was endangered. The period between the dangerous border and the border endangering life compared to tho former loss of water only the following conditions change originally, only the free water is eliminated, while during the period between ten or twelve per cent and about 22 per cent, the water from the body cells too, is eliminated. In other words, the intracellular water supply is affected. At the very beginning of the discussion I emphasized that under no conditions would 1 carry out experiments which would mean damage to the health or would endanger the lift of a subject; that I would refuse to do something like that. And, BeckerFreyseng replied immediately that that was also in accordance with his views, and, that, of course, death should have to be avoided in any case, and that the limit should be set where no damage to the health of the subject had to be feared. But, anyhow, the experiments would have to be carried on so far that thirst reactions were noticeable and without any doubt would make it possible to make a comparison between the two groups. As far as I could take the responsibility for that from tho medical point of view, under the given circumstances, that is by preventing any damage to the health of subjects, I was supposed to proceed that far. I also discussed with him, discussed with him, that, of course, we would have been quite clearly in our minds that thirst experiment is not a pleasure, and that it asks very much from the will power of experimental subjects if they arc required to thirst for several days. And from that point of view, of course, one would have to regard these experiments as connected with some unpleasantness for the experimental subjects, and as a consequence the experimental subject had to be volunteers.
And, experiments on volunteers who made themselves available for these thirst experiments would, of course, make it possible to put these high requirements on them. In order to protect the experimental subjects in other ways, they had to stay in bed. There were two other reasons for this: First, the aviator who is in sea distress is also forced to lie down in the rescue boat; and second, every movement that is by walking around, increases the elimination of water by the lungs. So, that a lack of movement, the quiet lying in bed retains the water of the body somewhat more. In other words, the external conditions wore kept in such a way that is, with the exception of hunger and thirst, as far as possible no unpleasantness and no hunger would result for the experimental subjects. The aim of the experiment was to achieve absolute clarity about the following question: First, whether thirsting or the drinking of sea water would be better? whether the abstinence from water or the drinking of sea water would be better, drinking of a small amount of sea water? secondly, whether the Berka preparation contrary to expectations would bring about an improvement of the tolerability of sea water? thirdly, whether the Schaefer preparation could be tolerated for 12 days without any damage to the body. And, this group of experiments was supposed to be carried out for 12 consecutive days if the obvious conclusions resulted, i.e. that the preparation proved to be harmless. On the occasion the metabolism of those suffering from thirst and those who drank sea water was to be studied for one might obtain clues whether any changes take place within the body, and one would perhaps obtain hints for the treatment of persons rescued from sea distress. As I have said, this program of experiments was laid down in the meeting of 23 May, I received the respective record and asked whether any one of the Navy, or of the airforce, Luftwaffe, had found any papers on research work about sea water which Becker-Freyseng denied. In medical literature there existed nothing but very nebulous reports and opinions, to the effect, in general, that sea water is dangerous. Nobody concerned himself with the question of why it was dangerous in detail, and it was strange that nobody ever asked whether this was not conditioned by the amount.
I also have to add that in all the reports about cases of sea distress, it becomes apparent again and again that usually one only starts to drink sea water only after one has suffered thirst already for several days. In other words one expects an organism to tolerate sea water, an organism which is under quite different conditions than a healthy organism. Now it is as follows: That a person who has been suffering from thirst already for a few days has already reduced his elimination of water to a minimum; if such a person is now expected to drunk about one or two liters of sea water per day, that is a quart of sea water per day, then this dehydrated body is forced to eliminate a multiplicity of the amount of water which he would have lost if he had continued to suffer from thirst.
June S-A-19-1-HD-Meehan-Wartenberg.
Since a person who is suffering from thirst and sea distress usually drinks a large amount of water, among the seafarrers the danger of the sea water is known as a dogma and all reports about sea distress which I have found so far, with very small exceptions, indicate that the taking of sea water occurs in an uncontrolled manner and this practical experience in particular was apparently the reason why in the English and American papers on the subject studies were made predominantly on what the effect of sea water is on a body which has been dehydrated already, while we asked ourselves how developments were when from the very beginning one drinks sea water. Speaking from a medical point of view, there is a difference in principle.
Q. Witness, who had to decide when the experiments were to be interrupted?
A. This decision was of course up to my medical expert judgment and I can assure you here that I discontinued the experiments in such a way that the critical limit was not exceeded in any experiment. As far as the subjective elements were considered, I also took them into consideration, but that could take place according to the nature of the experiment only to a certain extent, because the thirst was in those experiments a "Conditio sine qua non," condition without which it could not be carried on. Such an experiment could not have been carried out without waving the experimental subject suffer from thirst. I certainly can understand how it feels to suffer from thirst and I had made sure what the sensations which are caused by this thirst.
Q. With reference to this experiment on yourself, I have already mentioned the animal experiments and I shall refer to them later; but now I want to ask you, witness, did you carry out the experiments yourself alone or did you have medical or other collaborators?
A. It would of course have been absolutely impossible for mo to carry out these experiments, which were propounded here, all alone; that would have been impossible. Therefore, three physicians of the Luftwaffe, medical chemists, who were otherwise working in large University institutes and laboratories, helped me carry out the laboratory work. On this occasion, I also want to state that these three physicians carried on the laboratory work and they arc only responsible for what they found in the urine and in the blood. In other words, they made analysis of the body fluids I sent to them, but they are not responsible for the experiments in themselves nor for the manner of the execution of the experiments. For that I alone am responsible.
Q. In addition to the medical personnel, did you have any other collaborators?
A. I also had three medical officers of the Luftwaffe, who in part were also working in the laboratory; in addition I received too male nurses who were prisoners to help me and three French medical students, who also helped me to carry out the examination and in the care of the experimental subjects. Furthermore, I consulted specialists from Dachau. They were exclusively prisoner physicians who helped me with the examinations in the specialist's field, and in the reports, which I still have in my possession. Although I made the greatest effort, I did not succeed in procuring one of the French assistants so that here he could testify as a witness about the execution of the experiments.
Please ask me another question.
Q. How did the experiments begin after the experimental subjects had arrived?
A. When the experimental subjects had been handed over to me, first I explained to them very extensively what was at stake in these experiments and what they were about. For me that was natural from the medical point of view. Never in my life did I require a patient or an experimental subject to do something that they did not know anything about, but if I am not believed then I must say that for practical reasons alone it was absolutely necessary to toll the experimental subjects what course matters would take, because an experiment of such a nature cannot be undertaken at all without having the experimental subjects know what they have to do. Such an experiment depends exclusively upon the experimental subject and I did not keep it from the experimental subjects in any way, that the thirst was very unpleasant and that what we were requiring of them would be very difficult for them. I still remember quite exactly that one of them thereupon told me, "Oh, well, a few days of hunger and thirst." I then told him he should not underestimate this at all, how thirst will feel. I then requested them to support me in this experiment and told them also, that with these unpleasant things they would now suffer they might be able to contribute to saving or prolonging the lives of a large number of people later on, and I told the group who were supposed to suffer hunger and thirst in particular and the group who were supposed to drink 1,000 cc of sea water that the were by far in the worst position. For that reason, I selected the strangest ones for these two groups, and contrary to the original orders I had received I kept specifically those groups down to the smallest number of people. That the group that received 1,000 cc of sea water later became larger is not due to the fact that I enjoyed inflicting this torture on another large number of experimental subjects again, but it is by the fact that of this group in particular during all the first experimental series none of them, not one of them, carried out the experiments without in addition to sea water drink a large amount of fresh water.
I also told the experimental subjects I would always be near them and I also kept that promise. Furthermore, I promised them they could have absolute confidence in me that nothing would happen to them, and thirdly I promised them that with the influence I had, due to the nature of things, I would use all of it to see to it that the promised advantages wore given to them. I then asked them whether they would agree to submit to the experiments under those conditions and they said yes, they would.
Q. You mentioned before that before the beginning of the experiment you carried out an experiment on yourself; would you please describe that to us briefly?
A. The experiment on myself did not consist in my tasting from the water when it was being administered to the experimental subject or when it was given to them in order to make fun of them, bat this experiment on myself was carried out by myself before the beginning of the other experiments and that was at the time when the experimental subjects were not even there yet. I did that for the reason that I wanted to find out first whether Berka's opinion that his preparation quenched thirst was correct, and secondly I wanted to suffer thirst myself, because the director of such experiments would be at a disadvantage if he had no idea what the experimental subjects were feeling when they were undergoing his requirements. Perhaps for an experiment, of another nature, under certain conditions, that might be possible.
For an experiment, however, in which the subjective symptoms of the experimental subjects are predominantly Important it is necessary that the person carrying out experiments know how it feels. For that reason, I carried out the experiment on myself to orient myself and to inform myself. I am not very proud of this at all and I am ready at any time to repeat it. But actually this was an experiment on my own person, which was executed in the regular fashion and I believe I know how thirst feels.
Q. Did you carry out this experiment on yourself without any injury to your health?
A. I carried on the experiment for four days and nights, the experiments with seawater. I drank five hundred cubic centimeters a day. Of course, I was thirsty; in fact, I was very thirsty; especially on the third day my thirst was extraordinarily great. I also observed that from the fourth day on I got somewhat drowsy, that my sleep was disturbed by the thirst, that from the moment when the muscles began to lose their water there was a certain lassitude in the muscles and even a weakness of the muscles, a certain heaviness in my limbs, and a great need for rest. I then discontinued the experiment by beginning to drink water and, even though I had lost more than four and a half kilograms -- that is more than nine pounds -- after two days I was able to make a trip to Vienna from Munich without any complaints.
Q. Witness, after the experiment you carried out on yourself, later on did you occasionally also still drink seawater?
A. Well, not only I myself but also the medical students, the Frenchmen, for instance; and also my assistants occasionally tasted some of the Berka water and, as a rule before the water was handed out to the experimental subjects I drank some of it. I did that especially so that the experimental subjects would not think that in this Berka preparation some kind of a magic was hidden -- God knows what kind of a magic --and that it could disagree with them. That was the reason I drank in front of them, not in order to make fun of them.
Q. Well, let us return now to the experimental subjects. You received them. You told them what it was all about, and what did you do yourself?
A. Of course, when the experimental subjects arrived, I understood a very detailed medical examination of each of them, all of them. Originally I had altogether sixty. Of those I immediately eliminated those whose condition cf nourishment seemed unsuitable to me. The rest I kept and gave an internal and X-ray examination.
On this occasion, in two or three, I found an infection of the lung. These cases, of course, I turned over to the hospital and I also saw to it that they were received there. Naturally, not a single person was included in the experiment who was not absolutely healthy. Aside from the fact that two or three had some akin disease on the legs, which was quite superficial and healed quite soon.
During the period before these experiments, during the preparatory period, one of the experimental persons fell ill with an acute infection. He got a fever and apparently had bronchial pneumonia. This prisoner -- that is, this experimental subject -- when he began to run a temperature, I also turned over to the hospital for treatment. I am speaking of the experimental subject who in my record of the experiments has the record number 9, and that is the group that was originally intended to receive Schaefer water. I also want to emphasize again that this happened before the actual experiment began -- that is, at the time when the experimental subjects were receiving the food that amounted to about 4,000 calories per day. Thus it was certainly not a consequence of my experiments. But from this one single transfer arose the rumors of the transfer of those who were dealthy ill and of those who were allowed to die in other departments.
Moreover, this man had a brother, and I know that he frequently visited this brother -- I know that he did not die, hut kept on living, and , as I said, often visited his brother. Nor did I transfer anyone later on because I might have considered it necessary due to my experiments to camouflage the dying of the experimental subjects. Besides, I would not have dared to compete with the physicians of the camp hospital.
Q What happened with the rest of the experimental subjects? How did they enter into the experiment?
A First, I received two substitutes for those who as I told you were already eliminated after the first examination, that is, after the xray. These came from the Dachau camp itself, while the other experimental subjects, the gypsies, came from the Buchenwald camp. These two substitutes from Dachau were German gypsies and one of them had escaped from the camp once. Later he was again taken into custody and again brought to the camp. He had a so-called escape insignia. That was the first time I found out that this insignia existed and this escape insignia meant that the prisoner was more strictly guarded. In order to remove that escape insignia the gypsy and a friend of his had volunteered for the experiments, they and a few other prisoners. The prisoner nurse who was at my office at the time and whom I told that I needed two substitutes now, looked for two people on his own initiative and brought these two prisoners to me; and more than anybody he requested that I include those two in particular in the experiment in order to give them, or at least one of them, the opportunity to remove that escape insignia. The witness Viehweg testified here that the male nurse himself was half gypsy, that is the nurse Max, and for that reason he apparently helped those two gypsies. I thus included these two gypsies in the experiment, after the camp officer had given the approval for it, and I know of those two that they were not under any pressure of any kind on my part or on the part of the camp administration but they did this in order to achieve an advantage for themselves. After the conclusion of the experiments I also achieved that the escape insignia was removed.
Q How was the room in which the experiments were carried out?
A The room for the experiments was a large room in the principal hospital where the experimental subjects were quite comfortable and for the most part were in individual beds. These beds were kept neatly and had neat and clean linen on them. I was given this large room for the experiments only after I had intervened because originally I had been assigned a smaller room in Dr. Bloedner's station, of whom there is mention in Exhibit 137, the letter by Dr. Sievers.
I refused to take that room because it was too small for the lodging of all the experimental persons, and then I was assigned this larger ward in the prison hospital, and I thought that was part of the hospital. Only from the testimony of the witness Viehweg did I find out this was part of Schillings' experimental station.
Q Mr. President, I believe that we can continue on Monday.
DR. GAWLIK: For the defendant Hoven. Mr. President, I ask you that the defendant Hoven be excused from the session on Monday in order to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Hoven's counsel having requested that the defendant Hoven be excused from attendance before the Tribunal next Monday in order that he may prepare his defense, the request is granted and. the defendant Hoven will be excused from attendance before the Tribunal next Monday.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until nine-thirty o'clock Monday morning.
THE, MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until nine-thirty o'clock Monday morning.
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 9 June 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I. Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal, There will be order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, have you ascertained if the defendants are all present in the court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all defendants are present in court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court. Defendant Beigelboeck, the witness, is reminded that he is still under oath.
Counsel may proceed.
THE MARSHAL: Your Honor, defendant Hoven is absent this morning having been excused by the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the absence of defendant Hoven from the courtroom having been excused by the Tribunal in order that he may consult with his counsel.
Counsel may proceed.
WILHELM BEIGIBOECK - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. STEINBAUER (Attorney for defendant, Professor Dr. Beiglboeck):Q Witness, yesterday we stopped with the description of the rooms where the experiments were carried out and now I am asking you where was the court yard about which witness Vichweg was talking.
A The court yard about which the witness Vichweg was speaking was immediately connected with the barrack in which there was the experimental room. I have made a sketch from which the situation can be seen and this sketch is in my document book No. 2, document No. 31.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, in that connection I submit document No. 31 from document book No. 1, an affidavit of Walter Massion of 24 March 1947. Attached to this affidavit which I shall not read now is an original sketch. I have photostatic copies made of this and a translation. Therefore, I cannot submit it to you now. Excuse me, I shall give the Exhibit number 12 to this document and this sketch. The experimental room is included.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. Counsel, the Tribunal has the English translation. It has the document both in German and in English.
DR. STEINBAUER: I had the sketch made here. You have it, too, Mr. Hardy, don't you? This sketch is added to the Massion affidavit in its original form. I had photostats made of it in addition. I had a translation made for the Judges which I could submit to you only at this moment.
THE PRESIDENT: We have the document, both in German and in English now?
DR. STEINBAUER: The original of the sketch is included in the document of the Massion affidavit in the back, toward the back, the last page. The original is included in the Massion affidavit. Photostats and English translations were made so that the expressions will be understood.
Mr. Secretary General, would you please be so kind as to hand the original to the Judges?
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, I understood you to say the original transition had not been prepared but we have it.
DR. STEINBAUER: No, it is included here. It is attached.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, I must have misunderstood you. The document appears to be complete.
MR. HARDY: May I inquire, your Honor, whether or not the affidavit purports to contain a certificate therein certifying that the chart is a true representation of the conditions existing in Dachau?
DR. STEINBAUER: The signature -- Dr. Servatius submitted the original to the witness in Cologne. Dr. Massion certified that it was correct in the presence of Dr. Servatius. This is apparent in the affidavit. On the original you see the signature of Walter Massion.
THE PRESIDENT: I find no certification by Dr. Servatius.
MR. HARDY: Only on the affidavit, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the affidavit refer to the chart? I haven't had time to read it yet.
HR. HARDY: It obviously docs not, Your Honor, inasmuch as the chart is dated 24 April and the affidavit is dated 24 March. I will not object to its submission in evidence but I want him to clarify this certification, and, if possible, have it certified before the close of the case.
DR. STEINBAUER: We shall ask Dr. Servatius. I did not speak to the witness myself because the trip was too inconvenient but Dr. Servatius spoke to Massion and submitted it to him. I shall ask Dr. Servatius for a certification and shall hand it in afterward, also a certification of the sketch.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Would you please continue now, witness?
A In this sketch the room in which my experimental persons were lodged is marked by a broken line. Next to this room is a smaller room in which the medical students were living. These were the French medical students whom I had taken out of their working companies and put into the hospital where they had better living conditions and could get bettor food. Through this room where the medical students were living one could go into the court yard about which the witness Viehweg testified. The door is marked by an arrow. A second way to get into the court yard was through another door of the experimental room via the main corridor of the hospital. Since not all of the experimental subjects were included in the experiment at one given time but in two divisions which alternated, they could always take walks in the court yard if they happened to be off and when the weather was good they also ate in the court yard. Thus the witness Vichweg had ample opportunity during the entire length of the experiments to talk to the experimental subjects. I never prevented him from carrying on such a conversation. His statements that only during the first days of the experiments he could talk to them is not correct.
Q How was the execution of the experiments themselves?
A As it had been laid down in the program of the experiment which was given to me, all of the experimental persons were first given the food that the aviators received, that is, about 3,500 calories per day, and in addition the so-called heavy labor food, so that they received about 4,000 calories per day.
Q Were there additions to these calories?
A The additions were tho food for heavy labor. That was, as far as I remember, eggs, butter, grade A milk, etc.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, in that connection I want to submit two documents, first document No. 26, in my document book No. 2, on page 103. I would like to give it Exhibit No. 13. This is an original document of the military district medical supply depot No. 17, about the food that was given to the experimental subjects.
On page 103, document book 2, this next document I would like to submit
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, counsel.
MR. HARDY: May I inquire again if this document - does this purport to be a list of the food permitted to Beiglboeck for use at Dachau?
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, this document has to be regarded in connection with the next one which I want to submit, from which it can be seen quite exactly what quantities were given to the experimental subjects for the so-called staff feeding. The first document is a result of the experimental station regarding the food Beiglboeck is to have for the carrying out of the experiments in a very scientific and exact manner, and with everything I have now I can oven submit the weather chart for every single day but that is of no great interest to us. This is only so that I can meet the objection that the people did not get anything to eat. They got excellent food. If you will look at the list - 2090 canned meat -- and that is how it goes on, white bread, butter, cheese, jam, Roesta biscuits, chicken eggs, sugar, semolina, raw potatoes, and in the second document which I now wont to submit as Exhibit No. 14, it is the following document on page 103, it says at the top, if you will look at that document: "Re: Experiments to render sea water potable. Delivery of food supplies for experiments." It is addressed to Oberarzt Prof. Beiglboeck, SS Entomological Institute at Dachau. It reads:
"Please receive herewith from this station food for the experiments in the following quantities: We should be obliged for a receipt as deduction voucher for the kitchen housekeeping book. For 32 men for 7 days (experimental group I)
1.) Beef in tins 9,350 kg - 11 tins each containing 850 grs.
2.) Fat (margarine) 3,200 Kg.
3.) Jam 9,600 Kg.
4.) Potatoes 27,000 Kg.
5.) Army bread 112,000 Kg.
6.) White bread 44,800 Kg.
7.) Gravy Powder 11,200 Kg.
8.) Cooking Fat (Marg.) 480 Kg.
9.) Sugar 8,960 Kg.
Coffee Substitutes 2,016 Kg.
10) Cottage cheese 8,000 Kg."
Then the so-called starting rations:
11) Full cream milk 112 ltr.
12) Eggs 224 13) Butter 5,600 Kg.14) Semolina 5,600 Kg.15) Roesta biscuits 24 packets 16) Cigarettes - 6 for each person per day" That is all together 1344 cigarettes, and then the signature of the Stabszahlmeister.
MR. HARDY: I must inquire your Honor what is the purpose of introducing document No. 26, which is Exhibit No. 13. From what I see the food is the same as that Professor Beiglboeck in Exhibit No. 14, dated the 11th August 1944, Exhibit No. 13, which is dated 19 August 1944, and obviously pertains to the same subject, one is the Examination of the food at the Vienna Branch of the Technical College Biochemistry Institute of the Technical Department. I don't see the connection between the two documents.
DR. STEINBAUER: It is very easy to clarify this. The second document only pertains to the delivery and it is dated the 11th of August, and in order now to get a scientific basis for his experiments Professor Beiglboeck in regard to these foods sent samples to Vienna in order to determine the amount of salt and the amount of water contained in it, and the food office made records of this in order to find out what the basic values were. For example, canned meat, sodium chloride, 1.5, per-cent 73, that is 73 per-cent water, is that right?
A The reason why I still have this receipt is because I had to have the analysis. I had to know how much salt they received in the food.