A. Not as much as ten percent under any circumstances. If it had been possible from the very beginning to treat the captured Russians in the camp hospital, then in many cases death could have been avoided, but there were strict orders from Berlin that the concentration camp and prisoner of war camp, although the prisoner of war camp was within the barbed wire, were to be kept segregated from one another. For instance, a large number of German prisoners were punished because they threw bread over the fence to the Russians. Because of the fact that sick Russians could not be taken into the main hospital, a little special hospital was set up inside the Russian camp. The drugs--
Q. Doctor, just a moment. Can you kindly tell me whether or not the death rate was over five percent, under five percent, ten percent? Do you know? You have made a statement here in direct examination that in 1942 and 1943 the death rate dropped. Now, what was the death rate in 1941?
A. If I spoke of the decrease in the death rate, then I was talking about ordinary prisoners, but now at this moment I am talking about Russian prisoners of war for whom no aid measures had yet been taken.
Q. Well, let's forget the Russian prisoners of war for a moment and talk about ordinary prisoners, inasmuch as you have based your testimony on that. How many prisoners were there in 1941, still 5000, or was that reduced because there had been so many deaths each month? Were there 3800 or how many ordinary prisoners?
A. New arrivals of Germans took place all the time because the campaign against Russia started. All politically unreliable persons were arrested then as "actionists".
Q. How many ordinary prisoners were in the camp in 1941?
A. Approximately 8000.
Q. What was the death rate?
A. I would estimate that compared to the previous year it certainly didn't increase.
Q. It did not increase?
A. No.
Q. That would be two percent again, namely, about 160 people a month?
A. Yes.
Q. How many ordinary inmates were there in the camp in 1942?
A. I would expect that new arrivals amounted to 5000 people.
Q. Five thousand?
A. Yes.
Q. So there was a total of 5000 in 1942 or ordinary prisoners, or is that 13,000 - eight plus five?
A. Quite right - 13,000.
Q. Thirteen thousand. What was the death rate in those 13,000?
A. I believe that it would not exceed the two percent.
Q. Well, now, it dropped, didn't it? You said that when Hoven took over as camp doctor - and he took over in 1942 - the death rate dropped considerably. Now, did it drop one percent or one-half percent? In 1942 it was two percent and now we have a considerable drop because of the efficiency of Hoven. Did that drop lower than two percent now, or didn't it drop?
A. The death rate certainly did not increase.
Q. Did not increase? Did it decrease?
A. Yes, I assume so.
Q. Well, would you say that it would be rather exorbitant to state that 300 inmates died each month in 1942?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, the more the camp was crowded the worse the checks and controls in the camp became. Where one man used to live previously when there were 6,000 inmates there had to be two or possibly three later on. The larger the number of inmates became the worse the living conditions became, possibly not so much from the point of view of food but from the point of view of space.
Q. Well, now, didn't the camp doctor each month submit a report on the number of deaths that occurred during that particular month?
A. I have no information on that subject.
Q. Then you don't know what the death rate actually was, do you?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I am here under oath. I have to think about every word.
Q. Well, now, did you see or didn't you see the death rate report that was signed by Dr. Hoven and was signed by the camp doctor before him? You had access to these records kept by Roemhild and Busse, Now, did you see these death reports?
A. Yes, they were always requested from Berlin concerning the number of inmates in the camp, and how many sick, how many capable of working, how many sent to other camps by transport, and how many dead.
Q. And you saw them?
A. I saw them often.
Q. Well, how many deaths did they allege a month, in round figures, in these reports that you saw in the year 1940?
A. I will take an average figure. It varied from 100 to 120.
Q. 1941? The year 1941 what was the figure?
A. This was in 1941.
Q. I asked you first what the figure in 1940 was and I want the figure now for 1941 and then I want the figure for 1942 and then I want the figure until you left in September 1943, bearing in mind, of course, that you saw these records.
Q. Mr. Prosecutor, with regard to the year 1940 I can't form an opinion or pass judgment because I didn't arrive there until 20 December 1940. As far as 1941 is concerned, I am giving you the figure 100 to 120.
Q. How many in 1942?
A. I would like to stress that quite often large transports arrived in Buchenwald, for instance, from Dachau, from Auschwitz. These people were very poorly fed on their way and had often been severely exposed to weather conditions that they died on the transport. They were unloaded at Buchenwald and immediately increased the death rate in that manner.
Q. How many people did you see Hoven kill?
A. I know definitely that Dr. Hoven killed five people, the names of which I gave you this morning in this court.
Q. Would you repeat those names again, please?
A. Firstly, Kushnir-Kushnarew, a White Russian former general.
Q. Yes, and the other one?
A. Secondly, Bulla, a German national who came, I think, from Litznannstadt, and then there were three German professional criminals whose names I can no longer give you.
Q. Where did this killing take place?
A. In operating theater No. 2.
Q. Dr. Ding was present?
A. Yes.
Q. What did they kill them with?
A. With an injection.
Q. Phenol?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did anybody else assist the two doctors?
A. There were two prisoners with them.
Q. Who were they?
A. One of them came from Upper Silesia and I cannot give you the name any longer.
Q. You don't know of any other killings by Dr. Hoven?
A. No.
Q. You know that Dr. Hoven states in his affidavit that he participated indirectly or directly in the killing of 60?
A. I will admit that Dr. Hoven knew of killings carried out by the illegal camp administration.
Q. Now, these killings wherein so-called traitors were killed - Dr. Hoven tells me some of them were killed by inmates, is that right?
A. Yes. I can give you a very large number of cases when these people were handed over to the penal company and their fate was then definitely worse than those of Hoven killings, because the people were thrown out of a second story window of the block so that their skulls were crushed and trodden on with feet until finally dead.
Q. I see. Do you know whether or not camp commandant Koch ever requested that Dr. Hoven execute inmates?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I believe if Commandant Koch had made such a demand to Hoven that Hoven would have refused unconditionally.
Q. Do you know whether or not Hoven ever offered himself to Koch for that purpose?
A. No.
Q. Do you know the name Goldstein?
A. No. I do know the name Goldstein from Auschwitz.
Q. Do you know the Goldstein that was killed in Buchenwald?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever hear the name Schiltemeyer, S-C-H-I-L-T-EM-E-Y-E-R?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether he was killed or not at Buchenwald?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever hear the name C-O-L-L-I-N-E-T, Collinet?
A. Jupp Collinet, yes.
Q. Who killed him?
A.- I know Jupp Collinet for a long time. Jupp Collinet very probably was killed by Hauptscharfuehrer Leclair.
Q.- He wasn't killed by Hoven ?
A.- No, he wasn't killed by Hoven, no.
Q.- You know that for sure ?
A.- That I know for sure.
Q.- Did you ever hear the name Titz - T I T Z ?
A.- No.
Q.- Do you know who killed him ?
A.- No. I don't know the name.
Q.- Did you ever hear the name Freudemann - F R E U D E M A N N ?
A.- I know the name Freudemann.
Q.- You know that name ?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Who killed him ?
A.- That I don't know ; at any rate, not Dr. Hoven. Freudmann had played a vile role in that camp.
Q.- How about May - M A Y ?
A.- The name May is also known to me.
Q.- Who killed him ?
A.- May was killed by Hauptscharfuehrer Wilhelm.
Q.- Did you ever hear the name Motz - M O T Z ?
A.- I was together with the prisoner Motz at Dachau, but I didn't meet him again in Buchenwald.
Q.- Did you ever hear whether or not Dr. Hoven was corrupt ?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, if you want to understand under the expression "corrupt" that Hoven had a pair of boots made or had a part of his uniform made, then I wouldn't deny that he did, but, or the other hand, I know that these articles which were manufactured in the illegal work shop were only used in order to satisfy Camp Leaders Gust, Schobert and others in order to have them close their eyes to prisoners on some other occa sion.
Apart from that, everything in the camp of Buchenwald was "corrupt", every human being wanting to live in the camp and wanting to live better than thousands of others had to be corrupt. Of course, not corrupt to the extent that others might perish in the process.
Q.- Did you ever see people give Hoven rings, fountain pens, silk underwear, gold teeth, etc. ?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, I believe that the defendant Hoven didn't need to have presents given to him by a prisoner.
Q.- Are you familiar with this book written on Buchenwald ?
(Shows book to witness)
A.- Yes, I know it. I know all the literature published about Buchenwald.
Q.- Will you kindly read from page 67 the paragraph I have marked ? I don't have it translated, Your Honor, I merely want these paragraph read.
DR. GAWLIK (Interrupting) : I object, Mr. President, I object to the presentation of this book. It has not been introduced as a document. It is not a piece of evidence.
MR. HARDY : Your Honor, I will give it a number. I do not have my numbers. But I will give it a number and offer it formally later. I do not want to use it as a document now. I merely want to refresh the memory of the witness and if he can state whether the facts elicited in this book are true or false.
THE PRESIDENT : Exhibit the book to the Tribunal.
DR. GAWLIK : Apart from that, I deny the probative value of this book. It isn't in any way known by whom this book is written, he is not under oath, and the person by whom it is written should be brought to this court if it is to be presented. At this moment, particularly, so many books are being written containing the most exorbitant inaccuracies. In a trial like this one here, such a book can't possibly be called evidence. In that case, the person who wrote the book ought to be brought here and must be examined and like every witness, must submit to my cross examination.
MR. HARDY : I submit, Your Honor, that in the passages I wish to use in this book the writer there devotes one page to Dr. Hoven. He says that Dr. Hoven was camp physician in Buchenwald in 1940 and 1941 and worked out a racket with a prisoner named Motz whereby inmates of the penal company, for example, - prisoners who were treated somewhat worse than others in that penal company - would be admitted to the hospital for a few days if they would turn over their valuables like rings, fountain pens, silk underwear, gold teeth to this inmate , Motz. Then Motz, in turn, delivered the valuables to Hoven. Then if somebody didn't have valuables to offer, then they would be admitted to the hospital and done away with by injections. Now, I want to know if this witness is familiar with that particular episode.
THE PRESIDENT : The objection is overruled. The question is entirely proper. The book is not being offered in evidence, but the witness may be questioned as to statements appearing in the book.
WITNESS : In order to elucidate on this point that in Buchenwald no inmate.....
DR. GAWLIK (Interrupting) : Mr. President, I want to, at least, have an opportunity to see the book before the witness makes a statement on it. As far as I have just been informed, it deals with the year 1940 and, at that time, Dr. Hoven was not even camp physician.
MR. HARDY : It deals with the years 1940 and 1941. I shall ask the witness to read the passage in the book which states that Dr. Hoven was the assistant camp doctor and that he was at the Buchenwald concentration camp serving in the hospital barracks.
THE PRESIDENT : What is your question to the witness ? You asked the witness to read the passage referred to ?
MR. HARDY : If your Honor desires. I would prefer rather have him read the passages .......
THE PRESIDENT : The objection is overruled. The witness may road the passages and, then be questioned by counsel.
MR. HARDY : But for the Tribunal, inasmuch as I do not have this translated, if the witness would read the two paragraphs aloud then the Tribunal could fallow my question.
THE PRESIDENT : Very well. The witness will road the two paragraphs aloud.
DR. GAWLIK : Mr. President, may I ask you to check your decision once again. By having those two paragraphs read they will go into the record and become evidence.
THE PRESIDENT : Counsel, the paragraphs will become part of the record but they are not evidence in the case at all. The purpose of reading them into the record is to enlighten the Tribunal as to what the witness is being questioned about, but reading them into the record does not make them evidence.
BY MR. HARDY :
Q.- Would you kindly reading the passages which are marked, Mr. Dorn ?
A.- Certainly :
"In 1940 and 1941 a new doctor arrived in Buchenwald, His name was Waldemar Hoven, SS-Obersturmfuehrer, always kind and nice. He said about himself when he received the War Cross of Merit "You are no hero, but a -man who pleases." Hoven was promoted to SS*Hauptsturmfuehrer and became camp physician. With that began his actual career. He had many irons in the fire. One of his sources of supplies was a prisoner named Motz. He had room service to do in the penal company and it was up to him to produce the sick and weak prisoners from the penal company called the "Mouslemen" in the sick ward. The granting of a few days decent treatment in the hospital and easy work, granted through the doctor, or admission to the hospital depended upon what the individual delivered to Motz, fountain pens, rings, silk underwear, golden teeth, etc.
Parcels with laundry could be sent to every one, at the time, from home. Motz handed: the major share over to Hoven. For this he received a free ticket for all his perpetrations which he committed against prisoners in the penal Company. Anyone who didn't give presents or pay to Motz was taken into the hospital and injected by Hoven. At the end Motz became a megalomaniac. He no longer had any feeling for proper measures applied to his master and fell into disfavor and one day was finished off within two hours : he was injected. Motz was only one of many sources of supplies for Hoven. He got furniture, carpets and radios for Obersturmfuehrer Voelker from the Building Brigade #3 from Cologne, one of our out side Kommandos. Prisoners who were working there were giving aid to bombed-out cities in cleaning-up operations."
Q.* Did you ever hear of this?
A.- Mr. Prosecutor, let me tell you, that I'd like to see the prisoner who still had a silk shirt in Buchenwald or a ring. I think I said this morning on one occasion how our wedding rings were pulled off our fingers when we were admitted. Valuables were taken over by the administration office and they were kept in the safe, and I can't give you the name of any prisoner who was walking about in the camp with a gold fountain pen in his pocket. Likewise, the entire affair Motz - you can believe me that - such an unscrupulous man as described here couldn't have survived five days of Buchenwald under such a system. By order of the illegal camp administration our comarades would probably have thrown him into the barbed wire fence. Such excesses in Buchenwald had become impossible in 1940. If you had said in Auschwitz then I am the first to get up here and say "yes", but for Buchenwald, since 1940, perfectly orderly conditions existed.
Q.- Did you know Dr. Horn?
A.- I knew Dr. Horn very well.
Q.- Did Dr. Horn perform most of the operations in the hospital barracks?
A.- He had to whether he wanted to or not, because Dr. Hoven certainly wasn't a good surgeon.
Q.- Was Dr. Hoven studying under Dr. Horn?
A.- Well, I always felt as if Horn was the man who was having to teach Hoven even the smallest type of operation.
Q.- I see. Did you know Piek?
A.- Do you mean the Dutch painter, Piek?
Q.-Yes.
A.- I know him very well, indeed.
Q.- What was Piek's profession?
A.- Piek was a painter by profession.
Q.- Did he ever paint any portraits for Hoven?
A.- I think not only for Hoven but for every SS leader in the camp. I know for certain, for instance, that he painted Dr. Ding as Wallenstein with a flying cloak.
Q.- Did he paint portraits of Hoven's children?
A.- That I couldn't possibly tell you here with certainty.
Q.- Now, you say in block 46 Hoven only went to visit the tailor and shoemaker because he had set them up in business there where they would be free from bother by the SS. How often did he visit the shoemaker and tailor? Did he go over there two, three, four times a week; or how often?
A Yes, you can say that Dr. Hoven visited the work shop generally frequently.
Q How often would that be?
A Every second day, quite frequently.
Q When did they set up this tailor shop and shoe shop in Block 46, was it installed and equipped at the beginning or during the middle of 1941?
A Well, I think the block hadn't been in existence for four weeks when the work shops had also been equipped. The situation at the beginning was that Block 46 could not be entered by anybody not a member of the SS, even with permission, and I believe Dr. Hoven was also affected by the prohibition, consequently the work shop would only have been constructed four to six weeks, or 6 weeks later.
Q How long did the shoemaker and tailor stay in the shop in Block 46, for two years 1942 and 1943, or for how long were they there?
QQuite decidedly until Hoven's arrest, because I don't remember that the matter was best opened in any other way previously.
A And Dr. Hoven only went to Block 46 to visit the tailor and shoemaker in the workshops, he didn't go there for the purposes of the experiments?
A Mr. Prosecutor, if Dr. Hoven left Block 46 with a parcel under his arm or a pair of boots or a uniform jacket, I can't possibly and really imagine he got those from the sick ward. He probably got those from the work shop.
Q I see. He went over there about every other day?
A Every second day.
Q Did Dr. Hoven nave about 500 suits and 300 pairs of shoes he went there every other day for over two years?
A Yes, that would be so, if Dr. Hoven hadn't been passing on these other things to other people, for instance Gust, Schobert and Biester, they all walked about with shoes soled in Block 46.
Q In other words, Dr. Hoven, a man who was a concentration camp doctor where you had some 15,000 inmates and you had about 260 dying each month had time to go see the shoe man and tailor every other day?
A Mr. Prosecutor, the facts are that the medical work, in fact that the doctors' work in Buchenwald was in the hands of prison doctors in a very considerable extent, for instance you only have to think of the systematic training of nurses. We had an evening school for two or three hours every evening given by Dr. Matuschek and Dr. Horn.
Q Do you know who wrote Dr. Hoven's thesis, did he write it himself or was his thesis to become a doctor written by Dr. Wegerer of Vienna?
A Mr. Prosecutor, all I can tell you is what I happened to read a few days ago in a book. It says there that Dr. Hoven's thesis had been written by a certain Dr. Wegerer from Vienna. This man is supposed to be a doctor or professor of chemistry. I read that a few days ago. I can't give you any certain information on that subject.
Q In the hospital barracks how often did you see Hoven, did you see him continually each day?
A I saw him daily.
Q You saw him also administer injections to five persons, that is all?
A That killing I observed.
Q And you state that Dr. Hoven is correct in his figure of 60 killings either by inmates or by himself?
A I can't answer that.
Q And these inmates, according to Dr. Hoven's affidavit, 60 persons were killed and others were beaten; of those 60 persons he states that some of them were killed by inmates, is that right?
(No response.)
Do you have a copy of Dr. Hoven's affidavit, please?
This is paragraph 12, Document Book 12, Document NO 429 on page 5 of the German, paragraph 12; will you kindly read that, Mr. Dorn, an affidavit by the defendant Waldemar Hoven?
Q "The total number of killed traitors was approximately 150, 60 of which were killed by phenol injections either by myself or under my direction, and the rest were killed by various methods such as beatings by the inmates."
Q Well now, he states that there were killings either by himself or under his direction, is that right?
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President I wish to object to the submission of this affidavit. The affidavit hasn't yet been admitted in evidence. It is an affidavit that has not yet been admitted. Its admission has been retarded until defendant Hoven is put on the stand.
MR. HARDY: I was not aware of that, your Honor. It bears an exhibit number. It isn't a fact that it is not admitted in evidence. This is something new today. We have been using it throughout our cross-examination continually. It certainly has been admitted into evidence. If it hasn't been admitted which is something I can't imagine, then it has been overlooked by the Prosecution in the presentation of its case in chief, and we submit it at this time. The document is in order, it contains a jurat, is sworn to and signed by the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: The first question is to determine whether the document has been admitted in evidence. I will ask the Secretary General to produce the original document and determine how it is marked.
HR. HARDY: Do you have the prosecution exhibit number? Your Honor, I don't know the exhibit number off-hand.
THE PRESIDENT: It is document No. NO 4200.
MR. HARDY: Do you have the Prosecution exhibit number marked in your document book, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: I cannot tell from this book. There is a symbol after that, but what it is I --
HR. HARDY: Mr. Travis will have it in his file of the prosec ution numbers.
If he will call my office phone, 61212 and ask for Dr. Hochwald to give him the prosecution exhibit number of that document, he will be able to secure it.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, I had placed an objection to the admissibility of this document, it has once been submitted and then its submission was put back until Dr. Hoven has been examined. I haven't got the record of that before me. I will have to wait until tomorrow, but I could submit the record of it.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I submit if that is true then all the other documents admitted in evidence were admitted incorrectly by this Tribunal. This document here is no different from any other affidavit we have submitted. I am sure it was admitted and there is prosecution exhibit number, and I would like to finish up my examination and I only have three or four more questions and clear them from his affidavit.
DR. GAWLIK: I have given detailed reasons for my objection. The document was submitted to Dr. Hoven at that time in the English language and not in German, and Dr. Hoven has not sufficient control of the English language for the knowledge of examining on it. No interpreter was present at that time. That was the cause of the objection and the Tribunal decided that admission would be put back until after the examination of Dr. Hoven. For that reason, I will object to today's use of the document.
MR. HARDY: I proceed to another question or two, Your Honor, while we are waiting for the document.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q Mr. Dorn, do you know for what reason Dr. Hoven was arrested by the SS?
A I can only repeat my explanation which I gave this morning. As far as I an informed Dr. Hoven was arrested because the suspicion existed against him he was cooperating with prisoners, cooperating with them extremely closely and as time progressed the suspicion increased.
Professor, Dr. Hoven is supposed to have been arrested because of the case with Hauptscharfuehrer Koehler. Just how this affair developed is something I am not informed about. I only know that it was 12 September 1943 Hoven was arrested on leaving the camp.
Q Do you know whether or not any other officers of the camp were arrested at the same time?
A I know that the commandant Koch was arrested, but I can't tell you with certainty today whether Koch was arrested earlier or later than Hoven, and I know at that time Oberscharfuehrer Sommer was arrested. I don't know what connections there were.
Q You don't know whether Koch was also arrested for collaboration with the inmates?
A Koch? I think he was the biggest devil we prisoners ever clamped eyes upon.
Q Do you know whether or not Hoven was indicted after being arrested?
A That I do not know, because on the 20th of September 1943 I left Buchenwald and then never again established contact with Buchenwald.
Q Do you know whether or not the camp commandant Koch and Hoven were indicted in the same indictment?
A No, I don't know.
Q Do you know that Camp Commandant Koch and Dr. Hoven were charged with fraudulent conversion of Reichs' funds, of frauds on concentration camp inmates for their own benefits, and condoning and festering corruption in the camps.
A Mr. Prosecutor, I know that Koch and his brother-in-law, Hauptscharfuehrer Michael were arrested for corrupt actions in the camp.
Q You know that Hoven was arrested in the same case along with Koch?
A No. My information is to the effect that it was because of the case of Hauptscharfuehrer Koehler that Koch was arrested.
Q Who? Hauptscharfuehrer who?
A Hauptscharfuehrer Koehler.
Q Was he a witness against Koch?
A I can't tell you that. If I had remained in Buchenwald then I would certainly have had the exact details the fortnight after Hoven was arrested.
Q. Well, what was the reason why the Hauptscharfuehrer was connected with the arrest of Hoven?
A. Well, the Hauptscharfuehrer Kuehler was imprisoned by the commandant's office at the time.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, this affidavit of Hoven has been admitted into evidence as Prosecution Exhibit No. 281.
THE PRESIDENT: Submit the document to the Tribunal. Submit the document to the defense counsel. Apparently it has been in evidence as a prosecution exhibit.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, this exhibit, the affidavit, as far as I remember, was given the number when it was submitted and I raised the objection. Following that, the Tribunal's decision was made to my recollection. I can only now recall from memory but I will submit the statement to the Tribunal when I can read the record and all of the defense counsel are willing to concur in the fact that the admission of the document was put back.
MR. HARDY: Then your honor, I submit this document has been admitted into evidence, if it had not been admitted into evidence it would not now be in the hands of the Secretary General but it would still be in the hands of the prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly, if appears that the document has been admitted in evidence, it has been assigned a number. It is almost time for a recess until tomorrow morning and after the Tribunal recesses this evening, the entire matter can be studied, the record can be read and the testimony at the time can be examined.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I have only one or two questions on this document. If it is necessary I will offer it now and give it another exhibit number. It is in good order, it has a jurat on it, it is signed by the affiant and dated. It is perfectly admissible.
THE PRESIDENT: That would be saving no time and it would probably take longer than until the recess time.
I well remember in connection with at least one of these affidavits by one of the defendants, either by this one -- although I believe it was another defendant that a question was raised as to an affidavit and the Tribunal admitted the affidavit but ruled that when the defendant took the witness stand he could be asked concerning the circumstances under which the affidavit was made and at that time its probative value before the Tribunal would be considered, but the mere fact that an affidavit has been admitted in evidence does not establish its probative value as the Tribunal may consider it because circumstances may be shown when the affiant takes the witness stand that would defy the affidavit and if so more or less weight might or might not be the case.
Are there any other questions you can propound to the witness without using the affidavit now?
MR. HARDY: After looking it over, Your Honor, I can propound the same questions without using the affidavit.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Was Dr. Hoven assisted by inmates when he performed these killings in the hospital barracks of the Buchenwald concentration camp?
A. I did not understand your question correctly, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. Was Dr. Hoven assisted by inmates when he performed these killings in the Buchenwald concentration camp?
A. Yes, there were two prisoners who were present.
Q. Did other inmates ever kill the so-called traitor inmates in the concentration camp?
A. Did other prisoners kill the so-called traitors in the concentration camp; was that your question?
Q. Yes, were other traitor prisoners killed in the concentration camp by inmates.
A. Very often.
Q. Was that done under the supervision of Dr. Hoven?
A. No.
Q. Did he know about it?
A. He could not know because death reports always were made to appear that it was a normal death.
Q. What did the inmates kill the so-called traitor inmates with; did they kill them by injections?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I have already told you once before what the scene looked like in thepenal company, they were thrown out of the second floor window and it really happened that prisoners used the socalled injection syringe, but these were few and far between.
Q. How many inmate assistants did Dr. Hoven have in his capacity as camp doctor?
A. Do you mean those who worked with Dr. Hoven all the time?
Q. Yes.
A. It was generally Dr. Horn and Dr. Matuschek in OP 1 -Internal Operations in the Medical wing. OP 2 there was a certain Hellmuth Diemann and another man and I can no longer remember his name, I do know that the man came from Upper Silesia and I can see him with my own eyes but I cannot remember the name. He had a Polish name which it is difficult for me to pronounce.
Q. How many nurses did he have; men in your capacity?
A. Altogether possibly 90 men, possible more than that.
Q. Now, realizing you are under oath, can you tell this Tribunal how many men you assisted in the killing of with Dr. Hoven?
A. To that I can answer with a calm conscience that I did not assist with a single killing, nor assist in any manner, nor was I present at any time.
Q. How many men did you kill when Dr. Hoven was not present?
A. I have never killed a human being.
Q. You had access to the drugs, didn't you?
A. No, but to the phenol drugs no one had access.
Q. Then you know they used phenol in killings in Buchenwald?
A. I think everybody who ever worked in the sick bay knew that.
Q. I have no further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, how much time will your re-examination of this witness consume?