Q Were non-German prisoners used for such experiments?
A I have already said that the orders from Berlin said that only prisoners, criminals and persons in preventive custody were to be used in these experiments.
Q I now put to you Document NO-1063. This is the file for the office for the locating of war crimes in Amsterdam. According to page 14 of the German translation, a Dutchman by the name of Von Nenvarden stated that he was infected with typhus by Dr. Hoven. What can you say about that?
A I never knew of a Dutch citizen being accommodated in Block 46 because in the camp we had a Dutch painter by the name of Harry Pieck who had an enormous influence on Dr. Hoven. This Dutch politician certainly would never have permitted a Dutch comrade of his getting to Block 46. I can, however, state with certainty that a group of 80 Dutch prisoners was given injections that were perfectly harmless in another block of the camp. These men had no work to do, were given double rations and the only regulation they had to submit to was that their temperature was taken three times a day. These injections were entirely harmless. None of these persons could have fallen ill of these injections or could have suffered any physical injury.
Q Please turn one page back, to page 13 of the Document NO1063. According to this Vondelink states that Dr. Hoven is responsible for the medical experiments carried out on prisoners in Block 46. I ask you, did Vondelink have the necessary knowledge and information in order to judge who was responsible for the experiments in Block 46?
A I must say first of all that I do not know this Vondelink. A prisoner who was not employed in the prison camp knew nothing whatsoever of what took place in the prison hospital and in block 46 because the prisoners could enter the camp hospital only with permission of the camp commandant and they could not enter any wards at all. Vondelink probably heard this as a rumor in the camp and repeated that rumor in good faith.
I believe that if I myself had not been employed in the hospital and if I were asked today who was responsible for the conditions there I also probably would have said the camp doctor on duty.
Q Can you answer the question whether Vondelink was employed in the hospital?
A He certainly was not employed there. Otherwise I should know him.
Q Do you know of the action 14-F-13?
A Yes.
Q How many transports left the camp under this action 14-F-14?
A One, namely, at the end of 1941.
Q Where did it go to?
A The prisoners and probably also Dr. Hoven did not know what the real destination of this transport was. However, after some time the property and clothing of these prisoners were sent back and this allowed us to conclude that this transport had gone to Bernburg. The prisoners must have been liquidated there, otherwise their personal effects would not have been sent back to Buchenwald, and curiously enough it was at this moment that the numbers 14-F-13 became current among us prisoners.
Q For what reasons were no further transports sent out within the framework of action 14-F-13?
AAs far as I know all Jewish inmates of the camp were to be removed from the camp in the subsequent transports. The illegal camp management immediately took measures and all the Jews there were thenceforth listed as mason apprentices under the leadership of one Robert Seibert from Dresden, who treated these Jews very well.
Q Who prevented these further transports?
A The illegal camp management in collaboration with Dr. Hoven, because the second transport that was set up was declared by Dr. Hoven to be in no condition to move and was thus recalled.
Q Can you give the Tribunal information regarding further measures that Dr. Hoven took in order to prevent the carrying out of action 14-F-13?
A I can only say that Dr. Hoven, whenever transports were to leave, always conferred with the illegal camp management and with all the prisoners in the camp who were of any consequence and who occupied any illegal office and approved and brought about the necessary counter measures.
Q Is it true that the defendant Hoven, only in order to prevent such transports, undertook the so-called anthropological measurements of prisoners?
A Yes, I know about that, there was an SS Oberarszt in the camp who was interested in this sort of measurement, and these measurements were consequently undertaken. If the SS camp management had know that these measurements were really protecting many very interesting Jewish types, anthropologically speaking, then they would have been stopped, because many Jewish patients had been hidden in the camp for years.
Q Is it correct that the defendant Hoven accommodated in Block 46 and 50, persons who were threatened by the action 14-F-13, particularly Jews?
A Yes, I am in a position to give you a few names. For example, the Jewish prisoner August Cohn, whom I met recently in Kassel, where he was the Public Prosecutor in the Denazification court; also of the nurse Jellineck, also a prisoner named Kurt Glaeser, and then in Block 50 there was a prisoner named Hoegster. I believe there was quite a number of Jewish prisoners who were removed from the action in this way.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal how many Jews there were in Buchenwald when you left in September 1943 were still there?
A. Precise figures I cannot give you, of course, but I believe I am not overestimating if I say there were 1800 to 2000.
Q. Did the defendant Dr. Hoven ever examine prisoners intended for transport to Bernburg?
D. No, because these transports were not judged on a medical basis. I know that the first transport that left was arranged for from Berlin and that Leclair simply put his OK on it. These prisoners were not taken to the camp hospital before they were put on the transport.
Q. I now put to you Roemhild's testimony. This is page 1634 of the German transcript. Roemhild said that the two camp doctors, including Dr. Hoven, examined Jews with reference to their ability to work, that lists were drawn up of those who could not work and those were sent to Bernburg. Now, what do you have to say about that?
A. I can only say that there were very frequent examinations on all the Jewish prisoners because the Jewish prisoners received only half the rations that we received. For this reason Berlin, or perhaps the camp commander, was particularly interested to know just what the physical condition of these people on half rations was. But, these examinations had nothing to do with the transports because as it happens for more than a year I had to be present during these examinations, or rather during the assembly of the transports and consequently I was always informed by Dr. Hoven where the transports were going and who was on them.
Q. These examinations with reference to the prisoners' ability to work, were they carried out by the camp doctor?
A. No, usually by inmate nurses.
Q. You spoke of half rations that the Jewish prisoners received. Is it true that the illegal camp management with Dr. Hoven's support illegally supplied these Jews with food contrary to explicit orders?
A. I do know that the Jewish blocks were supported to a very large extent from the camp hospital.
Q. Do you know Roemhild?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How long have you known him?
A. I have known Roemhild from that moment on when I was employed in the camp hospital.
Q. What did he do there?
A. From 1940 to '43 Roemhild was the so-called treasurer of the camp hospital. That is to say he took care of the prisoners' money there and in 1943 -- and this took place very shortly before Dr. Hoven's arrest, Roemhild was used as a clerk for the doctors.
Q. Was Roemhild as hospital treasurer present at examinations?
A. No, never.
Q. Consequently, does Roemhild have the necessary knowledge in order to be able to make statements regarding events of this sort in 1943?
A. No, he does not because before Roemhild was camp hospital treasurer he was for most of the time absent from the hospital in the finance office or at the quartermasters and only at very short intervals he was in the hospital itself.
Q. What do you know about the killing of informers in the camp?
A. I know that in Buchenwaldprisoners, who did not obey the rules set up by the illegal camp management and who worked with the SS denouncing other prisoners and thus brought about their deaths, were liquidated by Dr. Hoven in collaboration with the illegal camp management. The case I am speaking of now concerns a former White Russian General by the name of Kustiner Kuschnarev, a racial German by the name of Bulla, and three German professional criminals. These men had human lives on their conscience. Life in the camp was very rugged and the prisoners were very bitter toward these traitors. Consequently, they had to disappear from among the living.
Q. Tell the Tribunal what the illegal camp management's tasks and activities were?
A. The illegal camp management was an institution set up by the prisoners themselves for their own protection. In the course of time it developed to a strong illegal organization which saw to it that measures taken by the SS camp commander were sabotaged in every possible way and the camp was kept free of traitors and informers.
Q. Describe the activities of the informers and traitors on the community in the camp.
A. Let me first take up the case of Kuschnir Kuschnarev, the White Russian General, because that was probably the most prodigious drama of treason that ever took place in Buchenwald. When Kuschnier Kuschnarev was in Buchenwald large numbers of Russian Prisoners of War were turned over to the camp Buchenwald. The assignment that Kuschnarev had from the SS camp commander was to associate with these Russian Prisoners of War and to pump them regarding their opinions and to find out if there were any Red Army officers among them and, if so, to inform the camp commander, also information on all prisoners who worked in connection with these Russian prisoners or who naturally sympathized with the Russian prisoners on the basis of their Communistic past. The prisoners whom Kuschner Kuschnarev denounced were taken by the Oberscharfuehrer Beier, Tanfratshofer, Commander of the Laundry Schaefer, Kitchen Chief Schmidt, Serno Leclair, or either they were shot in the stable or hanged in the crematorium. I can assert here that it was an incredibly large number of persons whose death Kuschnier Kuschnarev caused.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, counsel, the Tribunal is about to take its recess. The witness may complete his story after the recess.
JUDGE TOMS: If the Tribunal will permit me to interrupt just a moment, This is Judge Toms, presiding in Tribunal II. One of the defendants in this case has been authorized as a witness in Case IV now being tried in Tribunal II and, if convenient, I would request that this defendant be excused at this time and the Marshal be directed to conduct him to Tribunal II for the purpose of testifying for the defense.
THE PRESIDENT: Who is the defendant before this Tribunal?
JUDGE TOMS: The witness is Rudolf Brandt.
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Robert M. Toms, presiding judge of Tribunal II now in session, having requested that the defendant Rudolf Brandt be excused from attendance before this Tribunal for a short time in order to testify before Tribunal II, the Marshal will see that the defendant Rudolf is conducted to Tribunal II to testify as a witness before that Tribunal, to be returned to this Tribunal when his testimony is finished.
JUDGE TOMS: Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess for a few minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. The Secretary General will note for the record the absence from the Tribunal of defendant Rudolf Brandt who has been excused to testify before Tribunal No. 2 which is now in session. He was excused and his absence from the Tribunal will in no way prejudice his case.
Counsel may proceed.
Q. Witness, did the activity of stool pigeons consist particularly of accusing prisoners wrongly?
A. It has happened repeatedly that people because of intrigue by these traitors with the SS Camp administrators were reported and due to this type of treason were severely punished and lost their lives.
Q. Could you tell the Tribunal an example of that type what about the special company of prisoners?
A. In 1942 some criminal prisoners wanted to get the camp administration over to their side and they went to the camp leader and told him that political prisoners in the camp had a radio station and were thus listing to enemy stations. The camp administration reacted immediately and relieved all political prisoners who had influential positions, such as capos and block leaders, and prisoners in the hospital such as vice-capo and many male nurses and they formed a special company. It was the task of this special company to work in the garden, under Sturmfuehrer Dombeck and cart soil all day long, and all this work had to be done running.
Q. Did this killing save the lives of numerous decent prisoners?
A. I can say that in the case of Kusehnier Kuscharew, yes, because Kusehnier Kuscharew during that time of 1941 until the end of 1941 quite certainly was responsible for the death of one thousand 1200 Russian prisoners and German political prisoners.
In the case of other killings of which I know for certain, the situation is exactly the same. I believe that if Kuschnier Kuscharew had lived to experience the end of the Buchenwald camp he probably would have achieved a record figure four to five times as big.
Q. In what manner did the illegal camp administrator ascertain who the informers and stool pigeons were?
A. The illegal camp administration really only consisted of prominent political prisoners. This illegal camp administration saw that every position, be it commando, leader of the camp, or the camp physician, in other words every position where interesting things might be learned, was held by their confidence men and everything they managed to find out, be it orders from the SS, be it work of the traitors and informers, whom I have mentioned, was immediately reported to their own men. I would like to add that the seat of the illegal camp administration always was in the sick-bay as long as I knew Buchenwald. Dr. Hoven was perfectly well informed about what was going on inside the camp and without reserve approved of the measures adopted by the detainees. I can well say that Dr. Hoven has always been the beck-bone of the illegal camp administration.
Q. To whet extent did Dr. Hoven participate in these killings?
A. I did not understand that question, would you mind repeating it?
Q. To what extent did Dr. Hoven participate in these killings?
A. I know for certain of five killings and they are those which I have already mentioned. These killings took place in the presence of Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Ding and a man unknown to me, whom I think was a doctor.
Q. Where did these killings take place?
A. In the Hospital Theater No. 2
Q. Where do you derive you knowledge from?
A. I would like to tell this Tribunal that I am possibly the only prisoner of Buchenwald who without the knowledge was observing all killing of Dr. Hoven and the camp administration. I spent a long time in Ward No. 6 where Dr. Hoven placed me as a nurse.
Everytime a SS man entered the camp I knew it. I of course, did watch out from my window by climbing on my bed or by taking a high stool, I could from the latrine look directly into the operational theater from the top window. Consequently, I could see every move in the operational theater. I could see the inside of the operational theater, I could see the operating surgeon and ascertain accurately what was going on in the operational theater.
Q. Did you see that apart from the high informers and traitors you mentioned Dr. Hoven killed other people?
A. That I never saw.
Q. Would you have seen it if it had happened?
A. I would have because I have already mentioned that everytime a member of the SS, be it a Doctor or anyone else, entered, I immediately went upon my observation post.
Q. For what period can you testify to this?
A. I was appointed in March of 1941 and went from Buchenwald to Auschwitz a few days after the arrest of Dr. Hoven, that is to say that during the period from 1941 to 20 September 1943 I was there.
Q. During this period were you always present in ward 6?
A. Yes, I was always in ward 6.
Q. What about the nights?
A. During the night I slept in the ante-room of operating theater 2. In other words, everyone who had to enter operating theater 2 had to pass through my bed room and thus I could really see everyone who had any business in operating theater 2. During the night no one could enter the operating theater from the back since I had orders to lock the back door of the operating theater every night after the end of treatments and to hand the key to the chief nurse.
Q. Could it have happened that these killings were carried out in another operational theater?
A. No.
Q. Can you give any detailed reasons?
A. Operational theater No. 1 was worked in exclusively by Dr. Horn, the Czecho Slovakian prisoner doctor, who carried out all operations and also the Czech prisoner, Dr. Matnschek and I believe with certainty if anything happened in that operating theater that Horn would have opposed it and would have informed all of us immediately. Apart from that Operational theater no. 1 is a room where only operations of an internal nature are carried out and for that reason had to be kept completely sterile. For instance, if I wanted to enter operational theater 1, I had to undergo complete disinfection before and I cannot imagine that any other personnel could have entered operational theater 1 at all.
Q. What do you know about Room No. 11?
A. I know that Room No. 11 until 1941 was a hospital ward in the T.B.C., the so called Alm.
Q. And what do you know about Room No. 11 after 1941?
A. At the end of 1941 new furniture was put in and it was made a recreational and dining room for the nurses working in the T.B.C. station, since the camp physician had strictly prohibited that rooms where T.B.C. patients were confined should be used for eating.
Q. What do you know about the reputation of this Room No. 11?
A. The reputation of Room No. 11 was the worst in the whole camp of Buchenwald, because at the time when Dr. Eisele still acted as camp physician, he collected all the patients who no longer had any home for recovery in Room No. 11.
I hardly think that any of these patients left tee room alive. It was said that Dr. Eisele was liquidating incurable patients there.
Q. Up to what time would it have been possible, therefore, that killings went on in Room No. 11?
A. Actually only until the end of 1941, as long as Room No. 11 was a ward and hardly after that time.
Q. Who was chief camp physician until the end of 1941?
A. Dr. Blanke since Dr. Hoven only became camp physician in 1942.
Q. Let me put Doctor Horn's testimony to you, it is page 5396 of the German record. Dr. Horn only worked in the sick bay after the beginning of 1942 and he testified he had to sign a certificate that he could not enter Room No. 11; how can you explain that if according to your statement he was there as early as 1941 and Room No. 11 had become a recreational room for nurses?
A. The way I can explain it is that in 1942 and 1943 it was strictly prohibited that this department where T.B.C. patients were was to be entered by anyone. I, too, had been instructed by the camp physician and even by Capos to the effect that I had no business in the room for infectious wards for T.B.C. patients and I never tried to get there either.
Q . What do you know about the number of people killed by Dr. Hoven?
A. I have already said before that from 1941 to 1943 I was an eye witness to all killings. I can only testify in this court room that I have seen for myself how Dr. Hoven killed the five prisoners whom I mentioned. I would like to add at this point that after the second killing, Dr. Ding took the syrings away from him and accosted him.
Just what Dr. Ding said to Hoven I could not read from his lips, possibly he was not satisfied with Hoven's work.
Q. I shall now put Roemhild's testimony to you, according to the German Transcript Page No. 1639, he gave a figure of a thousand.
A. I can only reply to you by restating the fact that I was actually an eye witness to these killings. Roemhild, who did not work in the sickbay wards and had no opportunity either to watch the killings or to be actually present, cannot possibly know who carried out these killings. Naturally, it was assumed in the camp that the camp doctor was carrying out these deeds.
Q. Did you ever see that the Defendant Hoven killed people who did not act as stool-pigeons or informers for the camp administration?
A. I have certainly no knowledge of such a case.
Q. Will you please tell this Tribunal just in what manner it was ascertained in the case of these five people, whom you have talked about, if they were informers or stool-pigeons for certain?
A. The case of Kuschnir Kuschnarev was quite definitely a sensation in the entire camp. I don't believe there was a single prisoner who was so hated as this man, but I do know that Dr. Hoven nevertheless made absolutely certain just who Kuschnir Kuschnarev was. I am quite certain that during those two days when Kuschnir Kuschnarev was in the hospital, Dr. Hoven interrogated one hundred witnesses for certain to find out whether Kuschnir Kuschnarev was really the traitor whom he had been told about.
Q.- Did the defendant. Dr. Hoven, kill prisoners who were unable to live any longer ?
A.- No.
Q.- Did the defendant. Dr. Hoven, kill prisoners who reported to him for treatment ?
A.- No, I have never seen Dr. Hoven send a prisoner away who went to him for treatment or blame him or hit him as so many other damp doctors did.
Q.- If any other persons carried out similar killings, would not Dr. Hoven have had to hear of such acts ?
A.- I really couldn't give you an explanation just how Dr. Hoven would have gained such knowledge because if people were killed then it was always done at the exact moment when Dr. Hoven wasn't in the camp.
I would like to give you a brief explanation on this point. At the entrance to the sick bay there was a doorkeeper's hut and in that hut a political prisoner sat whose name was Franz Blass. In this shed there was a bell and when Dr. Hoven came down the camp street which was clearly visible from this doorkeeper's shed then Blass had orders to ring this bell twice. If anything illegal was going on in the sick bay by prisoners or by the SS and this bell rang twice, then all activities ceased. Consequently, Dr. Hoven could never surprise anyone who was doing anything or trying to do anything without his knowledge or had possibly done some such thing.
Q.- Wasn't it essential that Dr. Hoven had to gain knowledge of these killings because of the fatality or casualty reports in the camp ?
A.- To my knowledge, that was impossible. The ordinary normal death figure at the camp Buchenwald at that time was very low. Up to now I have read every publication and checked everything that was written about Buchenwald and I have devoted myself intensely to the study of these articles but they all concurred that the normal death rate in the camp at Buchenwald did not exceed 2%. It was, therefore, quite certainly not difficult to smuggle in a few dead, particularly since Dr. Hoven didn't sign all the death certificates; but since this was purely a matter for prisoners and in cases where the bodies were dissected the death certificate was issued together with the findings of the dissection, signed by a prisoner in the sick bay, and then passed on to the Buchenwald Registrar.
He countersigned it and then sent the certificate to the relatives of the dead person. I, for instance, would never have had the courage if I had know about the killings to go to Dr. Hoven and say, "This and that man has killed," because the capos would have immediately taken my life for it.
Q What can you say about the extent of the entire goings on in the sick bay? Was it, pretty big?
A The sick bay at Buchenwald was actually very large, indeed. There was a large barracks for internal diseases, two barracks for surgeons' patients, and then across the park there were two further barracks. There were altogether approximately eight rooms and I think that it was just as impossible for Dr. Hoven as it was for myself to control all those eight barracks and supervise them simultaneously.
Q Was it for those reasons that defendant Hoven couldn't concern himself with all details in the sick bay?
A I would almost like to say that the sick bay of a. prison camp isn't a private clinic and that Dr. Hoven didn't know most of the patients who were there personally at all and, therefore, he didn't discover if one or the other prisoner wasn't in the sick bay any more. The following day if he had really made inquiries on any occasion then he would have gotten the answer that the prisoner had been released back into the camp.
Q What, was Dr. Hoven's attitude regarding prisoners and, particularly, sick prisoners.
A That question I can only answer "excellent," if I draw a comparison between other camp doctors and during my detention I met 20 or 25 camp doctors.
For instance, I remember one certain doctor by the name of Eisele who took special pleasure in accosting elderly Jews in the camp and asking them if they were hungry and telling them if they would go straight to the sick bay he would give them something to eat ; and then, instead of giving them food there or any type of assistance, Dr. Eisele took his hypodermic syringe from his pocket and took two such poor wretches and gave them doses so that the victims usually suffered terrible cramps and, for Dr. Eisele's amusement and in front of prisoners who might like to see that sort of thing, were rolling about in front of the barracks or might start screaming and raging. In comparison to all that, I must say that Dr. Hoven did a great deal for prisoners, particularly for recently operated prisoners.
You might think it somewhat funny if I tell you here that in a concentration camp people who have just been operated receive an additional ration of good butter, milk, white bread and fruit or that the treatment of convalescent people actually included the construction of a wonderful garden ordered by Dr. Hoven and that they managed to get deck-chairs in their garden so that recuperating patients could lie in the sun in deck chairs during their stay. During my prison term I got to know three camp doctors and I never saw any other doctor doing anything like that.
Apart from that I would like to add that all prisoners in the camp liked Dr. Hoven very much and that every prisoner who had any troubles, be that he be sentenced to flogging or anything like that, whenever he went to see Dr. Hoven he always found a willing ear. I can certainly put sufficient cases to you here where prisoners had been sentenced to 25 lashes and when Dr. Hoven managed to carry out some sort of manipulations in order to save people from this type of punishment.
Q.- Did the defendant, Dr. Hoven, make efforts to give sick patients every conceivable medical attention ?
A.- I can certainly say that to the best of my conscience.
Q.- Can you give examples to this Tribunal ?
A.- First of all, I would like to describe the case of a 17 year-old Jewish prisoner. This prisoner, named Kurt Glaeser, used to carry soil for the head gardener an Unterscharfuehrer, Dombeck. Some how, on one or so occasions, this man took a dislike to him and he tried to hit him and hit him so unfortunately with his boot that Glaeser dropped to the ground. Dombeck jumped upon this young man with both feet and this inflicted a complicated double fracture of the thigh. That was somewhat unpleasant for Dombeck. The prisoner was taken to the sick bay and there he was supposed to be liquidated.
When this prisoner was admitted Dr. Hoven was present in my ward and allocated a bed in my ward to this Jew. I can say that this young man would never have survived in that camp if Dr. Hoven hadn't left him in my ward for a year and a half. I have experienced frequently during that period that Dr. Hoven came along and asked him if he had any wishes and I know that this prisoner was operated probably nine or ten time within that period without knowledge of the Kommandant's office.
Then there is another case I would Like to tell you about. It was forbidden as a matter of principle that Jewish prisoners should be admitted to the sick bay or treated there. Dr. Eisele certainly observed that instruction most strictly ; but, once Dr. Hoven gained a certain amount of influence in the camp, he found illegal ways and means for establishing a small ward for Jews only and he forbad expressly that we, nurses should draw Jewish marks upon the patient's history and favor chart. If there were visitors or if the camp Kommandant went through, Dr. Hoven always described these patients as being non-Jewish. I am firmly convinced that many a Jew that was doctored there is still alive today but otherwise that he would probably have died in 1942.
Q Will you please describe to the Tribunal Dr. Hoven's attitude toward you when you were sick?
AAt that time I was working in the quarry and I contracted a swelling of the glands. I was operated on by the prisoner Walter Kraemer and then was discharged from the sick bay and got eight days of light duty, but unfortunately a few days later the same trouble occurred again, Glandula inguinalis, a swelling on the left side, and I returned to the sick bay and reported sick and my reception wasn't exactly glorious, because first of all Kraemer described me as an asocial element, and that these were penitentiary methods, and I had inflicted this trouble upon myself, and I had done something to cause my second hernia gland to swell, and he ordered me to wait until the out-patients had been dealt with, and I didn't know at the time what this meant, but I learned later that this waiting would have meant my death, since after the other prisoners had left the operating station, I would have been transported elsewhere, you know where - and then Dr. Hoven came along and asked me what I was suffering from and took an obvious interest in me, and I can't tell you. why today, I don't know, but at any rate Dr. Hoven made an incision with his own hands, and after I was discharged from the sick bay he managed to got me a job in the prisoners' kitchen, and now I would like your permission to describe just how I got into the sick bay. A political prisoner who was suffering from a very serious infection underwent the amputation of an arm. This prisoner's life depended upon whether he could be given fresh blood or not and thus the loud speaker of the camp announced that if there was a prisoner in the camp who had once given blood, then he should immediately report to the sick bay. Some time previously I had given blood in a University clinic and I knew I had blood group "0" and was therefore universal, and so due to the loud speaker's announcement I went to the sick bay and gave 300 cubic centimeters of my blood to him and I was about to leave the sick bay at the moment and Dr. Hoven said: "You will stay here first of all and relax properly, and you will refresh your food situation," and I stayed in bed for about three or four days, and after that I got up, and Dr. Hoven gave me instructions to report to the food store of the SS, which was under the care of Hauptscharfuehrer Barsch, and Dr. Hoven wrote down for me that Hauptscharfuchrer Barsch should give me very large quantities of rations, and this special ration at that time consisted of approximately two pounds of butter, 5 litres of milk, several pounds of good sausage, white bread and grapes, and then I received glucose in addition to that, and I was about to leave the sick bay about four weeks later, when Dr. Hoven came along quite suddenly and told me:
"You don't have to work in the camp. You can stay right here in the sick bay. You can be employed here as a nurse." And then I was a cleaner for about a year and after that I was employed as a nurse.
Q The story you have just told me, was that the defendant Hoven's attitude toward all prisoners or was that his attitude toward you because you were an acquaintance of Dr. Hoven?
A Let me say before that that I hardly knew Dr. Hoven at all. In fact I only saw him once before when he operated on me. During the period of my blood transfusion, I didn't see Dr. Hoven at all since it was carried out by a nurse, and I don't think he was even a doctor, and I can certainly say it was only when I was about to leave the sick bay that Dr. Hoven took a renewed interest in me. I feel almost ashamed because some of my former comrades may be sitting in the audience and I would find it rather awkward if I would say I am the only one he preferred in this way.
Q Would it be right to say that up to the moment you entered the sick bay you were one of many of the unknowns prisoners to Dr. Hoven?
A I would like to add to that that any man who can see me sitting here today and who might have seen me at the time would probably not have given five coAts for my life, because I had spent months in the penal company at Dachau and my physical condition was miserable.
Q Would the defendant, Dr. Hoven, gain any advantages from you?