Q Then summing up all these considerations which we have just elicited in individual questions, what do you have to say to the assumption of the Prosecutor that you had a personal interest in the execution of the Dachau experiments, would you reject that assumption?
A Yes, completely. In this connection I should like to remind the Tribunal of Exhibit 37, the testimony of the Witness Pohl where Pohl says that no mention was ever made of the introduction of a Wolfatit series of experiments. I should like to say that if I had had the slightest interest in this I would have taken an active interest in the experiments, and how they were arranged. Professor Eppinger had been involved by Berkatit. He was in charge of experiments for Sirany. The experiments showed what the method of the execution of the experiments, what significance it has and the objectivity of results can improve on the method of experimentation.
Q On the 19th of May you opposed Berkatit, you also objected to undertaking experiments?
A Yes.
Q But experiments on prisoners had not been mentioned yet?
A Yes, that is right.
Q For what reasons did you object to experiments on the 19th of May?
A Because I considered them superfluous.
Q Did you have any reason to refuse to obey the order to attend on the 20th of May?
A No, there was no reason to do so.
Q Was there any reason you had to know that experiments would be performed or would at least be discussed, experiments on concentration camp inmates?
A No, I did not know that.
Q If you did not particularly want to go to this meeting on 20 May why was that?
A I was annoyed because the other people refused to understand.
Q You thought the whole thing was superfluous, the discussions of experiments?
A Yes.
Q Then on the 20 of May as Becker-Freyseng and yourself have testified, the idea of experiments on prisoners was brought up for the first time?
A Yes.
Q What feeling did you have then aside from your consciousness that the experiments were superfluous?
A I felt that it was unpleasant to carry out experiments on prisoners.
Q Did your antipathy extend only to performing experiments on concentration camp inmates or were you then are you now convinced that experiments on prisoners should not be performed at all, either on concentration camp prisoners, or prison inmates, prison inmates in Germany or America or any place else in the World?
A Yes, that was my conviction then and it is my conviction now.
Q Now, after the 20th of May did you do anything toward expressing once more your deviating opinion?
A Yes.
Q What did you do?
A I talked to Becker-Freyseng about it.
Q You telephoned to him?
A Yes.
Q And was your telephone conversation included in the affidavit Exhibit 19 of Mrs. Koenig of which I have submitted, and is it described correctly?
A Yes, it is described correctly?
Q What caused you to attend the conference of May 25th, first externally there was a military order, second what considerations what inner attitude did you have at that time?
A The experts were to consult with each other. Professor Eppinger, Professor Huebner and Professor Netter were to decide whether experiments were necessary at all.
Q Your medical opinion was settled?
A Yes, and I assumed for sure that these three gentlemen would realize that Berkatit was completely useless.
Q And then in the meeting at least so far as you were present, until you were separated from the others because of the air raid, you were seriously disappointed in this opinion?
A Yes, I was quite bitter and I lost my faith in -- I will have to speak generally, -- my faith in scientific judgment.
Q Do you think that these gentlemen gave their opinion against their better knowledge?
A No, no, why should they do that.
Q The reason I ask is that the Prosecutor has stated that Professor Eppinger committed suicide, and as the Prosecution said apparently because he was aware of his guilt; therefore, I ask you do you know whether all the other gentlemen are still alive?
A Yes, the others are still alive, and are still working as professors in their fields.
Q They have not committed suicide?
A No, they have not committed suicide.
Q So apparently they are not suffering from a guilty conscience?
A No, apparently not.
Q If experiments were performed with Wolfatit was your permission required to perform experiments with Wolfatit?
A No, one could get the Wolfatit from the I.G.
Q Can you imagine that the permission of a Unterarzt would have to be obtained?
A No, that is quite fantastic.
Q Can you imagine that the experiments with Wolfatit were performed to see what effect Wolfatit or rather the sea water treated with Wolfatit had?
A No, there was nothing to be seen.
Q Mr. Hardy asked you about what Professor Biegelboeck reported concerning the experiments in Dachau; I assume it escaped your attention that Mr. Hardy always asked did Professor Biegelboeck ask you and you answered repeating a great deal of what Professor Biegelboeck reported about the experiments; did you mean to say that Professor Berkatit told you all that personally or that he told that in his lecture?
A No, I meant to say that he said that in his lecture, at least most of it.
Q Professor Biegelbock spoke to you only briefly?
A Yes, only briefly.
DR. PELCKMANN: I have no further questions.
BY DR. MARX (Defense counsel for Professors Schroeder and Becker-Freyseng.)
Q Dr. Schaefer, you said in your cross examination that Professor Anthony had given you orders to go to Vienna and look at Sirany' experiments; do you know exactly whether Professor Anthony gave you this order on his own authority or whether he passed this order to you an behalf of the department chief?
A I assume that he gave it to me on behalf of the department chief.
Q Can you remember who signed the travel order and the military ticket for this trip?
A No, I cannot recall that.
Q You said that you warned Prof. Schroeder and Dr. BeckerFreyseng that Berkatit was dangerous; now did you warn them about the danger of Berkatit in practice of sea distress or the danger in experiments?
A This warning referred of course to cases of distress at sea.
Q Then I should like to ask you something else, the Prosecutor asked you whether in the meeting when it was decided to perform the experiments in concentration camps, these are the words of the Prosecutor, "whether you were offered to supervise these experiments or to carry them out yourself"; in the three meetings on the 19th, 20th and 25th of May was it decided to carry out experiments in concentration camps - the emphasis on the word "decided"?
A No, that was not decided.
Q On 19 May 1944 was it mentioned at all that experiments were to be performed on prisoners?
A No.
Q On 20 May 1944 at the meeting, what was said; was a decision reached at this meeting?
A No, the suggestion was made, i.e. the possibility was brought up.
Q On the 25th of May, 1944, were prisoners mentioned at all or was not everything else to be tried first to carry out the experiments; for example in the Luftwaffe agencies, in the Military Medical Academy, etc.; were not all other possibilities to be exhausted first?
A I was present at only a part of this meeting on the 25th, as long as I was there nothing was said about prisoners, that is shown by a few affidavits, too. The possibility of carrying out the experiments in Brunswick seemed to be the predominant idea.
Q You can remember that Brunswick was discussed, the Luftwaffe hospital in Brunswick?
A Yes, that is right.
Q Do you remember any other agency; perhaps the Military Medical Academy of the Luftwaffe?
A Yes, I remember the Military Medical Academy.
Q You remember that too?
A Yes.
Q It was not then said that the carrying out of experiments in camps was the primary idea?
A No, no.
Q No further questions.
DR. STEINBAUER: (Counsel for the Defendant Beiglboeck).
Q Witness, the Prosecutor examined you as an expert, I ask you, have you worked on the effect of sea-water on human beings or have you only concerned yourself with the question of removing the salt?
A I worked primarily on the removal of salt.
Q Then you have no practical experience?
A No.
Q Your statements about the loss of water with 500 cbcm and 1000 cbcm with various kidney concentrations are then purely an as sumption from your part?
A That is my personal opinion gained from literature, reports and theoretical opinions of my own.
Q Then you cannot say that this opinion of yours is absolutely scientific and accurate?
A No, of course I cannot ascertain that 100%.
Q No further questions.
MR. HARDY:
Q I have two further questions, Your Honor, if there are no further questions by defense counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: Does defense counsel desire to propound any further questions to the witness?
DR. PELCKMANN: At the end, I have a remark to make. I have no further questions to the witness.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:Q When did you learn for the first time, Dr. Schaefer, that sea water treated by your method was to be employed in Dr. Beiglboeck's experiments?
A As far as I know now that was in October.
Q In other words, you did not know about it until after the experiments had been completed?
Q No one told me anything about it.
A They employed your method and never informed you?
A It was not necessary. I did not have the material and it was not generally known that I was connected with this method. The I.G. Farben industry was in contact with the technical office and with the Navy; whether the gentlemen knew, I don't believe they did.
Q Did you develop this Schaefer method of rendering sea water potable in your capacity as an Unterarzt in the Luftwaffe or in your capacity as an employee of the I. G. Farben?
A In my capacity as Unterarzt in the Luftwaffe.
Q Have you ever had any clinical training, Doctor?
A Yes, after I took my state examination, I was for about one year an interne and then I was an assistant for one year and in 1938 I had to leave the clinic.
Q I have no further questions, Your Honor.
DR. PELCKMANN: At the end of my opening statement many weeks ago I made application that the defendant Schaeffer be released from custody and not subjected to the trial. I am of the opinion that this is a case where according to the practice of American and English Courts, the Court is able now to accede to such a request, and I make the same application once more.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider the motion by counsel for defendant Schaeffer for a discharge at this time. The Court will take the motion under advisement and announce its ruling on it in due time.
The Tribunal will now be in recess until nine-thirty o'clock in the morning.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, the Tribunal had ordered that tomorrow the defendant Hoven may remain away. I made this application on the assumption that the witness Dorn would be examined only Friday, but since the witness Dorn is being examined tomorrow, I would like to cancel application and have the defendant Hoven present tomorrow.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, counsel.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until ninethirty in the morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 9:30 5 June 1947).
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 5 June 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain if the defendants are all present in Court?
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all defendants are present in Court with the exception of the defendant Gebhardt, absent because of illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of the defendants in Court, save the defendant Gebhardt, who will be excused from attendance today pursuant to certificate of the Captain of the Medical Department in charge of the prisoners, as to the illness of defendant Gebhardt. The Secretary General will file the certificate for the record.
Counsel may proceed.
DR. GAWLIK: (Counsel for Hoven): With the permission of the Tribunal I would like to call the witness Paul Friederich Dorn to the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you please repeat? I did not have the earphones on.
DR. GAWLIK: With the permission of the Tribunal I would like to call the witness Paul Friedrich Dorn to the witness stand.
THE PRESIDENT: Pursuant to agreement between counsel approved by the Tribunal, the Marshal will call the witness Paul Friedrich Dorn a witness for defendant Hoven.
The Tribunal will take under advisement for further consideration the motion made by counsel for defendant Schaefer to dismiss the charges against him. Ruling on that motion will be passed until the conclusion of the testimony, at least.
PAUL FRIEDRICH DORN, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows;
THE PRESIDENT: Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please. Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated. Counsel may proceed to examine the witness DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Witness, your name is Paul Friedrich Dorn, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. The 16th of February 1916, in Winzheim.
Q. You are a German national, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Please, what is your present address?
A. Eschwege, An den Anlagen, 14 a.
Q. What is your present profession?
A. Taxi service and renting of Motor cars.
Q. For what reason were you put into the concentration camp?
A. Before the war I was the proprietor of a small transport business. In 1940 my truck was requisitioned by the German Wehrmacht and I was instructed to work as a workman in an armaments factory.
In August of 1940 I refused to do this work and was arrested by the Gestapo of Leipzig. The judicial proceedings against me for refusing to work were squashed, and I was turned over to the concentration camp of Dachau.
Q. How long were you there?
A. From September 1940 to to 20th of December, 1940.
Q. Where did you go on the 20th of December 1940?
A. To the concentration camp of Buchenwald near Weimar.
Q. What commando were you in in the Buchenwald concentration camp?
A. First of all I was employed in the quarry.
Q. How long were you employed there?
A. Until 15 January 1941.
Q. What happened then?
A. Then because I was sick I was sent to the Prisoners Hospital where a necessary gland operation was carried out on me.
Q. And what happened then?
A. For 8 days I was an out-patient and then I went back to the hospital for a second operation.
Q. And what happened after the operation?
A. After the operation I at first received an easier job and was employed in the prisoner's kitchen for light work.
Q. How long were you there?
A. Until March 1941.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. I was put into the prisoner's hospital and since March 1941 I was used there as a clean-up man.
Q. How long did you do this cleaning work?
A. Roughly one year.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I was a male nurse.
Q. How long were you a male nurse?
Q. Until 20 September 1943.
Q. What happened then?
A. After Dr. Hoven was arrested and I lost the support I had had in Buchenwald, I was transferred to Auschwitz.
Q. Then, witness, it is correct that from March of 1941 until 20 September 1943, you were in the prisoner's hospital of the concentration camp of Buchenwald?
A. Yes.
Q. During this time who was camp doctor?
A. Until 1942 Dr. Blanke as far as I know and later in 1942 Dr. Hoven was appointed camp doctor.
Q. Do you know when Dr. Hoven was arrested?
A. I know that very well, on 12 September 1943.
Q. Do you you recognize Dr. Hoven among those in the dock?
A. Yes.
Q. Please state which of these persons is the former camp doctor, Dr. Hoven.
A. In the last row, the third man from the left.
Q. Perhaps the witness might be allowed to step forward and point to Dr. Hoven.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may stop to the dock and examine the defendants and identify the Defendant Hoven if he can.
THE WITNESS: Very well.
(THE WITNESS STEPS TO THE DOCK AND POINTS TO DEFENDANT HOVEN.)
THE WITNESS: Here.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will show that the witness when stepping in front of the defendant's dock has correctly identified the defendant Hoven.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Then you know very well what the conditions were in the camp hospital in the time during which Dr. Hoven was the camp doctor?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Are Blacks 44 and 49 or Block 46 known to you?
A. Yes.
Q. How is it that you know of them?
A. When Block 46 was being used as an experimental station I was there a few times and had to take drugs and medicine from the main hospital to this block. However, at Block 46 I had no tasks to perform.
Q. What happened in Block 46?
A. I know that typhus experiments were performed there.
Q. Who was the chief of Block 46?
Q. The then Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Ding.
Q. What functions did Dr. Hoven perform in Block 46?
A. Dr. Hoven had no medical functions whatsoever at Block 46.
Q. Did the defendant Dr. Hoven carry out any experiments in Block 46?
A. So far as I know Dr. Hoven did not have the right to do that since the experiments were conducted on orders from Berlin and during the first experimental series even SS members were strictly forbidden to enter that Block.
Q. Who did carry out these experiments in Block 46?
A. So far as I know only Dr. Ding.
Q. How do you know that?
A. I had a friend who was a Jewish fellow and a nurse and I talked to him daily about what was going on in Block 46.
Q. Who was this Jewish nurse?
A. I can only remember his family name - Jellineck.
Q. Do you believe that this man is worthy of credence?
A. I knew Jellineck as a very good friend and a very honest person.
Q. What do you know about the experiments that were carried out with lice?
A. I know that at the end of 1942 cages of lice, infected lice, arrived in Buchenwald for the first time. Dr. Hoven conferred with the most important prison nurses of Block 45 and afterwards these lice were destroyed since the danger of epidemic was too great for the whole camp.
Q. What do you know about the second shipment of lice that arrived at Buchenwald?
A. I know that this second shipment was brought to Buchenwald by a higher Wehrmacht officer. In the presence of this Wehrmacht officer these lice were to be put on the prisoners immediately. This would have constituted a great danger not only for the prisoners in the camp, but also for the SS members in the camp. Therefore one was very eager to remove this Wehrmacht officer from Block 46 as quickly as possible. Also this second shipment of lice was destroyed in the presence of the camp doctor.
Q. What do you know about the way in which this Wehrmacht officer was removed from the camp?
A. From a telephone conversation that took place between Block 46 and the prisoner's hospital, I know that Dr. Hoven used a trick and told this officer that if he did not go back to Weimar with the truck that was then made available to him, he would have walk that distance in the evening, since there were no other means of transportation between Weimar and Buchenwald.
Q. Was the experiment discontinued immediately after the Wehrmacht officer left Block 46?
A. Yes, according to what I learn from Jellineck and a nurse from Block B who was accommodated there the lice were destroyed as soon as the Wehrmacht officer had left.
Q. Who was this nurse; what was this nurse's name from Block B Buchenwald whom you just mentioned?
A. I cannot give you his name, as I had very little to do with him.
Q. What do you know about Dr. Hoven's visits in Block 46?
A. I know that Dr. Hoven did not visit Block 46 for medical reasons, but I know very well that Dr. Hoven had set up in this isolated block a tailor shop and a shoe shop and he did so since it was already very difficult at that time to have shoes and uniforms repaired or to get new ones. For this reason Dr. Hoven had this work done illegally at this Block because the patients were accommodated there for this purpose. They were not running the danger of being surprised by any SS officer and punished.
Q. What can you tell the court about the prisoners who were working in these shops?
A. The prisoners who were employed there by Dr. Hoven with the understanding of the illegal camp management, who were hidden here in these shops and they were people who had drawn the attention of the SS camp management in some way and were therefore to be removed from the camp on very poor transports or were to be liquidated.
Q. Was Dr. Hoven interested in the typhus experiments in Block 46?
A. I must honestly state here that I never considered Dr. Hoven to be a good doctor and I did not believe he ever had any medical interest or any interest in experiments.
Q. Who choose the experimental subjects for Block 46?
A. The general instructions for the selection of these persons came from the R.S.H.A. in Berlin. These people were selected from the so-called political department by two Hauptscharfuehrers on special detail, namely Serno and Leclair.
Q Did Dr. Hoven participate in this selection?
A Dr. Hoven took part in this selection only when he wished to protect a prisoner known to him from being sent to this block; or, if political prisoners were there who were of great importance to the camp, then in that case the capo of the dispensary appeared before Dr. Hoven and asked that these important persons should not be sent to Block 46 but that they should be replaced by valueless criminal elements.
Q Did Dr. Hoven work in conjunction with the so-called illegal camp management?
A I believe Dr. Hoven was the first SS member to whom the illegal camp management dared to come and could dare to take into their full confidence with no fear of being denounced to the camp commander in an instant.
Q To clarify that point please tell the Tribunal now what the political department was, that selected the prisoners.
A The political department was a special Kommando within the Kommandantur of the concentration camp. It consisted of Hauptscharfuehrer Serno and the Unter or Obersturmfuehrer Leclair.
Q Were these members of the Gestapo?
A Yes, they did not wear the regular SS uniform but had other designations of rank.
Q I shall now put to you the testimony of Roemhild. This is the transcript of 14 January 1947, morning session, page 1632 of the German record. May my secretary carry the transcript to the witness?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
Q Please read. The prosecutor addressed the following question to the witness Roemhild: "Did Dr. Hoven participate in the selection of the patients who were subjected to the typhus experiments?" Roemhild answered this question in the affirmative. Further, the witness Roemhild stated: "If an experimental series was in prospect a certain number of prisoners was demanded.
This selection was made on the basis of the card index file that we had in the office." What do you have to say about that?
A I should like to answer the second question first. Roemhild is probably referring here to the exchanges that Dr. Hoven frequently made, accepting substitutions he frequently made, because Dr. Hoven did not take part in the actual selection; and now I should like to ask counsel to read that first question to me again.
Q The first question reads: "Did Dr. Hoven participate in the selection of prisoners who were subjected to the typhus experiments?"
A No, he did not.
Q Do you know whether the illegal camp management drew up lists for the substitution of political prisoners for inferior prisoners.
A Of course, all the prisoners employed in the hospital knew when the next experimental series was to begin. The illegal camp management already had ready for substitution all the persons in the camp who had behaved wrongly in some way or who had been guilty of any sort of betrayal or anything of that sort.
Q Did Dr. Hoven concern himself about these substitutions or did he leave that up to the illegal camp management?
A In every respect Dr. Hoven was given great confidence by the illegal camp management and vice versa and, in general, paid very little attention to what the illegal camp management did.
Q You, witness, are referring to the illegal camp management now, are you not? You mean the illegal carrys management of the prisoners themselves?
A Yes.
Q Did Dr. Hoven carry out the charts of the persons to be used in the Typhus experiments on the explicit wish of the illegal camp management or, rather, did he supervise this selection for that reason?
A I know of no case in which Dr. Hoven, without the knowledge of the illegal camp management, undertook anything which could do harm to any prisoner and which could lead to his being brought to Block 46.
Q Did Dr. Hoven take on this supervisory activity in order to prevent persons other than BV's and SV's from being used -- namely, professional criminals?
A The basic orders from Berlin stated that only German professional criminals and persons in preventative custody were to be used for these experiments. However, the SS camp management of the camp always tried to have political prisoners who had been in the camp for a long time also included among these persons to be used in these experiments in block 46 and it was only because of the alertness of Dr. Hoven in collaboration with the illegal camp management that these political prisoners I just mentioned had managed to survive their stay at the camp.
Q How is it that you know this?
A I occupied a pretty confidential position at Buchenwald and consequently numbered among my friends the members of the illegal camp management and in this way I found out many things which other inmates could not find out and never did.