Q. Nor would it be right to say that these experiments were planned scientifically and medically, is that correct?
A. Absolutely so.
Q. Could they have been planned differently?
A. I couldn't imagine how.
Q. Were these experiments in the interest of an active warfare, or in the interest of the care of ship-wrecked sailors or soldiers?
A. The latter.
Q. In other words for aviators and sailors who were ship-wrecked or would be ship-wrecked?
A. Towards the end of the war there was an increase in the cases of pilots who had been shot down as well as the cases of shipwrecked personnel, and it was therefore the duty of the hygiene department concerned to consider the question of how one could deal best with such cases of ship-wrecked personnel, that was the reason how this conference came about. Previously Schaefer, as we heard yesterday, had recommended not to drink anything. When together with I.G. he succeeded in eliminating salt and bitter salt from sea water through Wolfatit the problem was really solved scientifically. There were, however, considerable technical difficulties and it isn't exactly simple to equip each flier with so much Wolfatit in addition to everything else he has to carry in order to protect him against the danger of ship-wreck. That is no doubt why Eppinger and Huebner were in favor of the experiment, and it was unfortunate that Mr. Berka appeared with Berkatit at the same time, and impressed the technicians, because his method was more simple and cheaper.
Q. Professor, was there any reason to expect later symptoms of damage which might appear later than 10 days, after the end of the experiment?
A. It was entirely out of the question, even after the seventh day. Later **age is out of the question, because the duration of the experiments is too short.
Q. To what do you attribute the loss of weight during such experiments?
A. That is almost entirely the loss of water. As I have already told you the excess salt supply in the body deprived the body of water. The body must have a supply of water if it is to supply salt. In other words, if the body is not receiving any other water than sea water the attack against the water held by the body must take place, and therefore a loss of weight is bound to happen, which, however, can be caught up with instantly.
Q. What would you say to be expected in the way of the loss of substance of the body and how much loss of water?
A. I would say the bulk is the loss of water, but to split this up is something I consider impossible to do with certainty. You might possibly compare just how much was lost during the time applied by Schaefer when there was considerable hunger and how much was lost in the case of water.
Q. Does the speed play an important part with which the loss of water takes place?
A. Yes, of course, a tremendous part. The colored nostras is a well-known example during which disease, the must tremendous loss of water and salt takes place during 24 hours. I knew a case where 10 liters of water and 150 grams of salt had to be added intravenously through the venes, the skin and through the stomach in order to save that particular life of a person suffering from such an acute loss of water.
If on the other hand this is spread out over a period of days and if you do not have to expect such a dangerous loss of the salt, then the body can stand up to it for a much longer period. I might perhaps add that the loss of salt is just as dangerous as excess quantities of salt, and also in the event of the loss of salt which is always connected with water considerable losses of weight are suffered. It is well-known that an expedition on the mountain Monte Rose lost 5 kilograms, and the loss of salt and water, and that the weight could not be replaced in spite of the addition of water when salt was also added.
Q. Professor, according to the documents at your disposal were these experiments sufficiently well prepared?
A. It was my impression that they were extremely well prepared, and I was particularly impressed by the fact that Beiglboeck had sufficiently examined the participants carefully and had considered the use of them to be unsuitable since he found a defect of the lungs.
Q. I also want to deal with such preparations--
MR. McHANEY: I do not think by any stretch of the imagination can this witness testify from the records that Beigelboeck conducted an examination or rejected three experimental subjects. In my opinion it does not appear from the records, and he can only testify what Beigelboeck told him. Unless he can say it does appear in the records I think it should be stricken.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel has an opportunity of crossexamining the witness at the close of his testimony.
Q. Professor, would you not say that preparation for these experiments also means that certain experiments, such as experiments on oneself and animal experiments, printed preparations, if you like, must have been in existance or was that true of this case?
A. Yes, a report from Beigelboeck about an experiment carried out upon himself is in existence which describes the condition most efficiently, in which he found himself during a sea water experiment, and this description tallies to the highest possible degree with what my volunteers have described who have submitted themselves to these experiments. I might deal with that later.
Q. What opinion do you have regarding the experiments which were carried out by Sirany in Vienna?
A. There appeared to lack a critical attitude to me. I think Schaefer had the same impression yesterday.
Q. Are symptoms recognizable regarding the planning of these experiments which would go beyond the absolutely essential practical purposes and which would lead to considerable pains or painful feelings or might have lead to that?
A. Of course it isn't fun to be thirsty, and that is the major complaint in these cases. These people are increasingly thirsty, and they are disappointed to find that the administering of sea water doesn't decrease it, but increases their thirst, and towards the end of the experiments are disturbances of the muscles and the mood doesn't exactly improve. It is the same in the salt water experiments where there are cramps of the calf, because of the lack of water, but the characteristics of that are these symptoms disappear instantaneously at the very moment when the first glass of water is drank.
Q. Would you consider it possible that disturbances of the nerve end might appear, - temperature?
A. Temperature doesn't happen at all, and I can't imagine there are disturbances of the nervous system at all.
Q. How about rage?
A. In the case of insane people there may appear insane rages, maybe, but not in the case of normal human beings.
Q. If you yourself had been placed in this condition would you consider your attitude toward medical ethics, do you have objections to carrying out the same type of experiment as was carried out here, if healthy strong young men had been at your disposal?
A. I actually did it. Since I was interested in connection with sea-water experiments. I called for volunteers among my young doctors, and five of them volunterred, amongst them my youngest son, and they drank the synthetic sea water, having the exact amount content of sea water to the extent of drinking 500 ccm; they got a little food, because they were to continue on duty during the experiment. The loss of weight varied and was around one kilogram a day. At the end of the experiment my son got pretty thin, but after having a cup of tea was fine. Two days later he had regained it fully. All five participants described the experiment in the same way as Beigelboeck described the experiment carried out on himself. Four of these subjects interrupted the experiment after five days. One carried it out for six days, and outside of the present thirst he had no complaints. Any serious disturbance or damage is out of the question, and the extraordinary fact was the speed with which all symptoms of thirst disappeared after water had been administered.
Q. Would it have been possible at all to carry out such experiments if experimental subjects had not cooperated willingly?
A. No, you can only carry out such experiments with volunteers because that collaboration is indispensable, but that does not exclude that they might treat the man in charge of such experiments, such as many educated persons will try to deceive the medical expert during such cases and they will probably eat a beafsteak during such a hunger cure or drink something during thirst treatment. In this case then there were some failures and some did get a hold of drinking water secretly.
Q. Professor, you said that the cooperative attitude of the experimental subjects is indispensable; might I ask you just why it is indispensable?
A. Because thirst, as I have told you, is not a pleasant symptom over a lengthly period. It is quite unpleasant to be able to think of water alone and dream of water and to have a dry mouth and a dry throat. Thus, you have to have a certain amount of power of resistance. I can well imagine that uneducated and weak individuals might lose their willingness to collaborate after that.
Q. But it is not right to say that for the same reason it is indispensable if the observing doctor is depending of the statements made by the experimental subjects if he cannot control and check everything that goes on in the man's mind.
A. That is correct, but the analysis later on would show that the man had something to drink during the findings.
Q. Did you see any photographs of the experimental subjects?
A. I saw the pictures, the naked bodies, and I saw they were strong, well fed and well-conditioned people.
Q. Do you know, Professor, to what extent and in what direction fliers and sailors of other nations had been equipped in order to survive the ship-wrecks?
A. There were a great variety of experiments, but I don't think that is important because they were made with water catching sails, etc., but at any rate they did not have that excellent drug Wolfatite.
MR. HARDY: The witness has just testified as to the condition of subjects used in the experiments as he saw in pictures. Inasmuch as the witness has testified to that effect, the Prosecution desires to see the pictures which the witness and defense counsel has mentioned. They are in the hands of the defense counsel for Professor Beiglboeck and the prosecution thinks it is only fair that they be turned over to the prosecution at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: On cross-examination the prosecution may request to see the pictures. Counsel for defendant may exhibit the pictures to the prosecution; they have no objections.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, it would be rather late for us to study the pictures between now and during the time of cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: If the pictures are available, I think the defense counsel should submit them to the prosecution for examination.
DR. MARX: Mr. President, I myself do not have these photographs and I would think that later on during Prof. Beiglboeck's testimony or during Dr. Steinbauer's examination with the witness of Professor Vollhardt, the opportunity will arise to show the photographs.
BY DR. MARX:
Q. Now, Professor, the experiments we were talking about; did they have a practical valuable aim and did they show a corresponding result?
A. Yes, that is correct. For instance an important observation was made which Eppinger had expected and desired to carry out to see if the kidneys did concentrate salt under such extreme conditions to an even higher extent than one expected previously. One thought that it would be something like 2.0% but 2.6 or 2.7% and record figures of 3.0, 3.5, 3.6 and 4% are shown so that the fortunate man who is in a position to concentrate 3.6 % or 4% of salt would be able to live on sea-water for quite a long period.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, after a question is propounded to you by your counsel, would you pause a moment before giving your answer so that the question may be translated and conveyed and when you begin to make your answer, would you speak a little more slowly?
THE WITNESS: Finally, one unsuspected fact occurred which may be connected with this and that is the result that the drinking of small quantities of sea-water up to 500 cc given over a lengthy period turned out to be better than pure thirst.
BY DR. MARX:
Q. What do you think of Wofatit generally?
A. It is a wonderful think.
Q. Is it correct to say that sea-water really assumes the character of drinking water through it?
A. Yes, the only difficulty would appear to be to obtain the drug in sufficiently large quantities for a man who is sea-wrecked and did not have his luggage; but it is a wonderful discovery.
Q. So, you think that the result of these experiments does not only have importance in the case of a war, but is of importance for the problems of sea-faring nations?
A. Quite right, it is a wonderful thing for all seafaring nations.
Q. So that both the experiments with Wofatit, as well as the experiments made regarding the symptoms when such a drink was not available, were important to display, such for instance as the consumption of sea-water in certain given doses.
A. That is quite correct.
Q. That was only discovered by use of these experiments?
A. Quite correct.
Q. Mr. President, I have no further questions to the Witness Vollhard at this point.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other defense counsel have any questions to be propounded to this witness?
BY DR. STEINBAUER: (Defense counsel for Defendant Prof. Dr. Beiglboeck.)
Q. Witness, first of all may I put a formal question to you. The Prosecutors, are, as a rule, the most suspicious people. It is quite possible that these Prosecutors might state that the documents which I have submitted are collosal forgeries by Professor Beiglboeck. Let me ask you then, as a scientist, would you consider it possible that these documents which I have given you for your expert opinion are original documents or if they are forged?
A. I consider that the latter is out of the question.
Q. Thank you. You also have had an opportunity to look at the weight tables which I submitted already in document book 2; would you consider that the figures regarding weights and loss of water contained therein are correct?
A. Yes.
Q. One further question; Do you believe as a scientist that one could not have saved oneself the trouble of these experiments and satisfied themselves by animal experiments?
A. In the case of problems of water and salt metabolism that is not to be assumed for the simple reason that rabbits and dogs react differently, that is the difference between vegetable and meat eating beings. The dogs, our most important experimental animal, has no perspiration glands, and can concentrate water much more efficiently than the human beings.
Q. Let me come back to the question of diarrheas once again; Do you consider diarrheas occurring a fortnight or two later after the conclusion of the experiments as being connected with sea-water experiments?
A. I consider that out of the question because seawater experiments lead to constipation and how one may suffer from diarrhea afterwards is a mystery to me.
Q. Is it correct that during lack of water the body restrains the perspiration intersiviles and the goving off of perspiration through the pores?
A. That is correct.
Q. Would it be right to assume that the consumption of fresh water by the experimental subject would reduce the subjective and objective symptoms considerably?
A. Yes, you have to assume that. It is extraordinary how much the subjective symptoms are decreased by small quantities of drinking water.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the Tribunal is about to go into recess. I see no possible reason why counsel for the defendant should not submit these photographs to counsel for the Prosecution. I feel compelled to direct that counsel show these photographs to the Prosecution. I see no reason that they should not.
The Tribunal now will be in recess for a few moments.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Professor, before the recess we said that the ingestion of even small quantities of fresh water influences the subjective and objective condition of the subject. Now, the question - from the tables of weights that have been presented, can it be ascertained whether the subjects have drunk fresh water?
A That is certainly possible, since the loss of weight must occur with a redundance of sodium nitrate and the weight is not lost if fresh water is drunk.
Q Ignoring the question of the state of the blood, the content of nitrogen, etc. A witness here mentioned a certain incident that occurred, a screaming spasm, a tetanic spasm; do you regard that incident as dangerous?
A No.
Q Why not?
A Screaming spasms occur in cases of hysterical persons. This was not tetanus. This was a tetanoid condition which occurs like the cramps in cholera, and the increase in muscle irritability in the sea-water experiments. This is entirely unimportant. That it was not true tetanus can be seen from the fact that the most important symptoms of tetanus were missing.
Q Then, summing up, I should like to ask you, is it correct when I say that the experiments made very high demands especially on the will-power of the experimental subjects?
A Yes, you can say that.
Q. In carrying out the same experiment in a hospital, would it also have been necessary to keep the experimental subjects segregated and under strict control?
A. It would have been even more necessary. It takes a great strength of will to subject oneself to thirst.
Q. Was it medically justified for Beiglboeck to continue the experiment after it was discovered by analysis that the person had secretly drunk water?
A. The experiment should really have been begun again.
Q. Now, to exclude any possibility of doubt, your answer applied to people who have carried out the experiment the way they should and have drunk only sea water?
A. Yes, that is so.
Q. Now, does this experiment involve special pain or torture for the subject?
A. That would be an exaggerated statement, but thirst is a torment. I draw your attention to the ancient myths of Tantalus and Sisyphus. Of course, it is a torment not to be able to drink and to dream about drinking, but my men said it wasn't really so bad that it could be called torture.
Q. Now. let me ask you, to sum up, what about fatalities in these experiments? Are they impossible or not?
A. They are entirely impossible.
Q. Do you consider a lasting injury to health possible or impossible?
A. That is just as impossible as fatalities.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, will you instruct the witness not to answer your question until the interpreters have fully completed interpreting your question?
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. Professor, I ask you to answer in such a way as to permit the interpreters to have finished translating the question.
Now, I have one last question to put to you.
If fatalities and serious injury to health are assumed as a hypothetical possibility, then I want to ask you whether you, as a physician, embrace the point of view that arranging and executing such experiments are offenses against humanity.
A. If I did, I would not have carried out the experiments on my own son and on my students. There can be no question herein of inhumanity or of brutality, as little as in the case of therapeutic hunger and thirst cures, which I like to carry out. In view of the good food given to the experimental subjects, I should like to mention that one of the women whom I treated in this way had the pitiful weight of 51.7 kilograms and lost three kilograms during the experiment.
DR. STEINBAUER: Mr. President, during the recess I gave the prosecutor photostats and photographs of the experimental subjects so far as I have them. I shall show these, if the Tribunal wishes, to the Tribunal, but I should prefer to submit the originals, at least, to the Tribunal in the course of my case, which has suffered anyhow because the expert came first and not last. At that time I shall give them exhibit numbers.
THE PRESIDENT: The photographs may be submitted to the Tribunal later in the course of the examination.
DR. STEINBAUER: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any questions to be propounded to this witness by any other defense counsel?
DR. FLEMMING (Defense counsel for the defendant Mrugowsky): Mr. President, I ask permission to ask the expert witness four questions regarding the circulation of the blood.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel then desires to make this witness his own witness for this purpose?
DR. FLEMMING: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, proceed.
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q. Is it true that after typhus there is frequently a weakening in the circulation of the blood?
A. Yes.
Q. Can blood-letting in such a case have a good therapeutic effect?
A. One can't answer that in general. It depends on the specific case. In general, if the circulation is weak, one avoids blood-letting.
Q. In the case of convalescence after typhus, do you consider that blood-letting to an extent of 400 cc in order to make typhus serum do you consider that is permissible?
A. Yes, we do that to get serum, because that blood can later be replaced, either by transfusion or by some liquid or by food. In general, the body can well stand such blood-letting.
Q. And a last question. So far as you know and assume, can bloodletting to the extent of 400 cc in a person convalescing from typhus, who is in an average good state of health, bring about death?
A. I cannot imagine that it could.
Q. Thank you. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other questions to propound to the witness by any other defense counsel?
There being none, the prosecution may cross-examine.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q. Professor, you are prepared to testify to this Tribunal, as an expert, that the withdrawal of 400 cc of blood from a person convalescing from typhus and who, we shall assume, is in a weakened condition is perfectly permissible and would be recommended by you?
A. I consider that permissible for the purpose of getting serum if one is in a position to compensate for the loss.
Q. And suppose there was no compensation by way of blood transfusion?
A. In that case sufficient additional nourishment and liquid or even an injection of sodium nitrate solution will suffice.
At any rate, there would always be some way of compensating for a rather unimportant blood-letting of 400 cc.
Q. Would you, as an expert, recommend the withdrawal of 400 cc of blood from a typhus patient, without compensation?
A. That depends on just what sort of food he requires.
Q. Well, let's suppose he is a concentration camp inmate and he is receiving 1500 calories a day. Would you recommend that 400 cc of blood be withdrawn from that patient, suffering from typhus, without any compensation by way of food or otherwise?
A. I do not believe that would do him much harm.
Q. Would you recommend it?
A. No, I can't say that I would.
Q. Do you think that with 1500 calories per day and with no compensation by way of injections or blood transfusions the withdrawal of 400 cc of blood would not weaken that patient?
A. Of course it would weaken him, but he would recover from it.
Q. How do you know he would recover?
A. We have so many blood donors who do not receive more calories than that. Previously, it was customary that the person who donated blood received some compensation, but later this compensation became smaller and smaller, and the number of calories which they actually received - not just on paper - also became smaller and smaller. Consequently, it happens very frequently that they donate blood without being thereby injured.
Q. Well, but these blood donors were not suffering from typhus, were they, doctor?
A. No, but we also like to take blood from persons sick with typhus because we want that for serum. This we do not do at the moment because we have no typhus today. However, when we did have it, we did take blood from persons convalescing from typhus.
Q. Did you ever have any typhus patients under your care?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Did you ever withdraw any blood from them as they were convalescing to make serum with?
A. Not I, but my assistants did.
Q. Under what conditions was that done? How much did you withdraw?
A. I can't tell you that today. It was also 400 cc, I believe.
Q. And how many calories were they receiving?
A. I can't tell you. At least, in the hospital it was more than outside. Taking blood from persons isn't looked on by us as so tragic a matter.
Q. What stage of recovery was this patient in from whom you directed that blood be withdrawn? Had he recovered completely from typhus?
A. I can't say that, because all that was done by my assistants. The wouldn't have chosen for this anyone who had suffered particularly serious case of typhus.
Q. In other words, a person who had a very severe case of typhus would not be used for the withdrawal of blood, is that right?
A. That is a medical instinct.
Q. Did you compensate these patients from whom you directed that blood be withdrawn by blood transfusions or by further feeding?
A. I can't tell you that now whether we did that. That was too long ago.
Q. But you would have recommended that as good practice, would you?
A. Yes, I would have told my assistants that, of course-
Q. Do you regard the defendant Schaefer as an expert on seawater problems?
A. I believe he knows enough about that problem.
Q. Are you familiar with the name Professor A. C. Ivy?
A. Yes, I believe he has concerned himself with these problems, too.
Q. Well, have you read any papers by him, or are you acquainted with his reputation in medical circles?
A. Not very well, nor can I remember whether among the many things I have read on sea-water there was a paper by Ivy.
Q. Can you testify whether Dr. Ivy is regarded as an expert on sea-water questions?
A. I know nothing about that.
Q. On what precisely is your testimony with respect to the experiments by Biegelboeck based?
A. On the records and the descriptions that Biegelbock made of the experiments.
Q. Precisely what records have you seen on these experiments?
A. The records that the defense counsel had yesterday or today in his hand.
Q. Doctor, I will have passed up to you a set of records which are numbered from one to 44 in red pencil, and I ask you, did you have those records before you and did you make a study of them?
A. Yes, I had these records, and I asked one of my collaborators who took part in these experiments to read through these records and to make excerpts from them. He happens to be here also.
Q. Who was this collaborator?
A. On of my assistants by the name of Werner. He is at the time among the audience.
Q. You said something about his having participated in experiments; you don't mean the Dachau experiments, do you?
A. No. In experiments that I carried out with my students.
Q. Did you personally examine these records at all?
A. I saw them, but I didn't study every one of them. I left that up to the young man.
Q. And what did the young man do?
A. He gave me a very exhaustive report on them.
Q. In what form was his report; what did he have to tell you?
A. I should prefer to show you the report itself.
Q. Do you have it with you?
A. Not at the moment, but I do have it in my belongings. During noon recess I could fetch it for you.
Q. Your testimony, then, is based upon a summary made by your assistant, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is so.
Q. Now what other records were made available to you upon which your testimony is based here?
A. The charts that were filled out in pencil with figures.
Q. I'll have passed up to you a paper-bound book with the name "Schuster" written in pencil on the front of it, and down below in indelible pencil two words which I cannot decipher; I will ask you to read them into the record when the booklet is passed to you; was that booklet made available to you?
A. No, at least I have not studied it.
Q. You have never seen that book before?
A. I don't believe so. Perhaps it was given to me at the same time, but there are too many statistics and figures in here. I haven't looked through them all. This is a laboratory book. The two words on the book are "gastric juice, milimeter paper", and this is no doubt a record used in compiling the original report. It is a so-called laboratory book.
Q. But whether or not the book was given to you, at least you are clear that you made no study of the book, is that right?
A. Yes, that is so.
Q. And you don't know whether it was turned over to your assistant?
A. That I don't know.
Q. In any event, he presented you no digest of facts based upon that book, did he?
A. No.
Q. I pass you now Beigelboeck Exhibit No. 36, which has not yet been offered. This is in fact an English summary, but I think perhaps the witness might be able to testify about whether or not this was made available to him.
A. Yes, this I have seen.
Q. Did you personally make any study of that?
A. Yes, I looked at that personally.
Q. What does that record purport to show?
A. This shows the changes that took place in the body weight. It is broken down into loss of water, loss of body weight, percentage of the body loss, and so forth.