AAs I judge Himmler today I consider that possible.
Q Then would that not lead us to the conclusion that Himmler committed the crime against humanity since he took the idea of euthanasia about which one might have different opinions on the idealogical point of view, distorted it for reasons of hatred or bigotry, and used it for the murder of Jews?
A Yes, that is doubtless possible, because the idea of euthanasia was mis-used by the commission of all of these crimes. What was done here has nothing to do with euthanasia as a benefit to the person who is living a life unworthy of living. I don't want to say a great deal here about the ethical basis of euthanasia, but by way of introduction to this subject, I should like to say that my whole attitude was based on religious up-bringing. Only my helpfulness toward everyone and especially towards the sick made me an advocate of the idea of euthanasia.
Q Now, witness, I asked you at the beginning to speak about Mennecke's testimony. You thought it right to give briefly your ethical attitude toward euthanasia; how, how about Mennecke's testimony?
AAccording to the documents it is true that in 1941, according to 1151 PS, Exhibit 411, the Document Book 16, page 14 of the German, 12 in the English, it was on the 12th of November 1941 that Himmler sent medical commissions to the concentration camp to select the prisoners. I can say with a clear conscience that up to this trial I had heard nothing of the order of Himmler. The file note 14F 13 was completely -- foreign to me as a concept, up to this trial. I cannot recall that I ever heard these numbers 14 and 13, or read them in this connection, but if that should have been the case then I certainly didn't think anything about it, but read it over just like any other file note that one gets when one gets thousands of letters a day. These file notes were always copied automatically from the incoming to the outgoing letter. But by admitting this possibility I do not mean to imply that I have even the slightest recollection of this 14F 13, but I can say very definitely that up to the beginning of this trial I did not know that these numbers indicated any particular action and certainly not this particular one.
If I had known the nature of the project which was concerned under this sign, 14 F 13, not only would I have not consciously participated in such a project, but I would have removed any possibility of supporting such a project in any form.
Q Now, witness, what was the situation?
A The witness Hielscher, on the 16th of April 1947, said that the prisoners in concentration camps, a small number of whom I became acquainted with made a terrible impression. He said that most of them were spiritual wrecks. He said that the majority of them remained sick for the rest of their lives, that their mentality and I might say vitality, were broken. This condition of the prisoners might have been known to Himmler from reports of the concentration camps. To what extent Hielscher's assertion is correct that Himmler expressly through his system broke the spirit and health of most of these prisoners I cannot judge. In this connection I should like to recall the conversation which I had with Himmler in January of 1941. I also saw flaws then when he spoke of his intentions of sterilizing the Jews. I had certain doubts then whether the impression I had of Himmler up to that time was quite correct, but these thoughts were somehow dissipated because I heard nothing more about it, and I thought Himmler had given up his intentions against the Jews. I considered it as a confirmation of this opinion of mine that Himmler had become more humane that in the summer of 1941 I was told by Houhler that Himmler intended to have the most seriously ill persons in the concentration camps examined for their physical and mental condition. Himmler asked Bouhler to give him neutral doctors, since he did not have enough confidence in the ability of the camp doctors. Bouhler asked me to get in touch with the T-4 and inquire, or rather ask that experienced psychiatrists be assigned to examine the prisoners in the concentration camps. I did so. Whether I passed the request on to Nietzsche and Heyde, I really can't say.
Q Witness, you just said something rather incidental when speaking of the personality of Himmler, you said you had the impression that Himmler had become more humane again in the summer of 1941, that Bouhler said to you that Himmler had asked him, Bouhler, to send doctors to the concentration camps to examine the people whom Hielscher has described; that might give the impression that you didn't think this thing is very important at the moment, but it seems to me that that was a very important assignment, a very important request that Himmler gave to Bouhler. Didn't you think that the thing was as important then as it may appear today?
AAt the time I thought the request was quite a secondary matter. I have to come back now to what I said day before yesterday.
I was overworked in the Chancellery of the Fuehrer. What work I did for the euthanasia organization was really only on the side, and at this time in 1941 was limited merely to passing on instructions from Bouhler, and the questions and requests of T-4. During that time I had much more work at the Chancellery of the Fuehrer. I mention this assignment merely because this made me think that Himmler had some good intention here, consequently I didn't have any very exact recollection to whom I passed it on, to one of the men in Tiergarten Strasse 4, and I don't know what became of this assignment. It is possible that the result of these examinations was given to T-4, and then either to the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps or to Himmler, but at the time I was not able to count on the possibility that Himmler, on the basis of these results, intended to exterminate prisoners, whom, according to my feeling at the time he was having examined for humane considerations. I could not assume that.
Q You accepted this assignment from Bouhler in the framework of all the other assignments you were given at the time; you were glad that Himmler wanted to give a psychiatric examination to these poor people, but that you had no reason to think that this result might be used for such an action as the witness Mennecke described, is that true?
A Yes.
Q Now, witness, when you passed this assignment on you knew that it would be dealt with by Tiergartenstrasse 4; did the personality of the Doctors working at Tiergartenstrasse 4 offer you any certainty that these Doctors would carry out the assignment from a purely medical point of view?
A Neither from Chief Expert Prof. Heyde nor Chief Expert Nietzsche was I ever able to observe that there was ever any inhuman or brutal treatment, but in addition, as far as a lyaman can judge, I had the impression that these two were outstanding Doctors. There were many other good psychiatrists who were called on to help them out in their work. I thought that this assignment was in the best hands.
Q Now did you know that after this assignment was passed on in the summer of 1941 there was any influence at work, whether from Himmler, the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps or anyone else, in dictating a criminal intent ultimately; did you know that?
AAll of a sudden I did not have the time to take any interest in the organization at Tiergartenstrasse 4. At the end of 1939 or beginning of 1940, by the order of Reichsleiter Bouhler, I took an interest in the organization of this new matter, but later that stepped. I hardly ever went to Tiergartenstrasse 4 myself. The office was under Bohne at first and later under Allers and it worked quite independently. My own office was on Vosstrasse and the Euthanasia office was at Tiergartenstrasse 4. I was therefore unable to observe the relations of Tiergartenstrasse 4 to other agencies and, of course, I was unable to observe whether in the meantime without my knowledge or Bouhler's knowledge, other influences had asserted themselves there. I can only assume that today; I consider it quite possible, however, that on the basis of the events, in the spring or summer of 1941, when Bouhler asked for the examinations, closer connections developed between Tiergartenstrasse 4 and the Inspector of the Concentration Camps or some other agencies, of which I know nothing and that suggestions came directly from there to Tiergartenstrasse 4 to have new examinations carried out in the concentrations camps, which would then fall under the Action 14-F-13.
Q Witness, let us go back for a year for a moment. Witness Mennecks alleged that in the spring or summer, not of 1941, but of 1940, he received instructions from Nietzsche, Professor Heyde or yourself to visit the concentration camps and to fill out questionnaires there about prisoners, who were selected by the camp physicians; can you remember this testimony?
A Yes, but I remember that in the Cross Examination, Mennecke changed this statement and he said he could not say with certainty that he talked to me at all about his work in the concentration camps. Mennecke's assertion that with the people whom he mentioned he visited the concentration camps in 1940, it seems to me, is doubtless an error in his memory. In the spring of 1940, Euthanasia was just beginning in the Euthanasia Institutes, the B-Institutes, etc., and at that time there was definitely not enough time to send Doctors to concentration camps on special assignments. I can only assume that the Witness Mennecke confused the year of 1940 with 1941 here. It is possible that he participated in this first examination and the whole physical and mental examination of the condition of the patients in concentration camps, which was ordered by Bouhler. These were perfectly legitimate examinations, as is shown by the names of the other Doctors whom Mennecke mentioned, Dr. Falkelhauser, Dr. Steinmeycr and Dr. Nietzsche. These are all serious older psychiatrists, who would certainly never have permitted themselves to be used for any non-medical action for political motives.
Q Witness,the court does not know Falkelhauser, Steinmeyer and Nietzsche and I do not know them either, so that I could not judge. We are depending on your judgment, but I ask you are these men, Dr. Falkelhauser, Dr. Steinmeyer and Dr. Nietzsche, where they men like Dr. Pfannmueller?
A Well, in particular they were older than Dr. Pfannmueller, I think they were all older. In any case, they seemed to me to be nature, worthy, highly decent human beings. I cannot give any other impression because they made a very out-standing impression.
Q I was about to ask you whether those men were equally decent in their thinking, to say nothing of their action, at least as Dr. Pfannmueller showed himself to think here?
A Doubtless, yes.
Q Now, I have another question; Witness Mennecke said that in 1941 he received a summons to select Jews and foreigners orally from Heyde and Nietzsche and, as far as he could remember, from you, but as far as you were concerned, he later admitted he could not remember that definitely; what do you say about this? This was 1941, when could this assignment have been given?
AAccording to his own letters, which were submitted by the Prosecution, this assignment must have been in October or November of 1941. At this time Heyde was not working at Tiergartenstrasse 4 anymore. He left in August or July of 1941, I don't know if it was July or August. To this extent it is definitely an error of memory on Mennecke's part, moreover, I consider it entirely impossible that Heyde, with all his decent personality, would have given such an assignment and this seems true of the old and serious Professor Nietzsche.
Q And did you yourself in November or at any other time in 1941 give Mennecke such an assignment to examine prisoners in a concentration camp; in a superficial way ignoring the medical point of view as Menneck asserts?
A I must deny that emphatically. I did not give Mennecke such an assignment and I never talked to him about such an assignment. That would have been against my whole moral, attitude. I believe I have already proved how intensely I worked for years against the institution of concentration camps. I would have had to be as two-faced as Himmler presumably was because this assignment was to be carried out in an irresponsible way, as Mennecke said and as the letters to his wife indicate. I would not have been willing to participate in that.
Q Witness, in this connection I am interested in another statement of Mennecke, which is in contradiction to what you just said. The Witness Mennecke said that you had objected because in his judgment of the questionnaires; he took too strict an attitude, do you remember that?
A Yes.
Q What do you have to say about that?
A I deny this too, according to contents at least it is untrue and possibly the fact that I discussed such a thing with him at all is untrue. I am not a Doctor and I could not criticize an expert any way concerning his medical work on his questionnaires concerning Euthanasia. But, I admit the possibility that at the requests of Professors Heyde and Nietzsche, I asked Mennecke in some other connection to be more careful, that is in filling out the questionnaires in his trips to the mental institutes, because if the questionnaires were not filled out carefully enough, as the Witness Pfannmueller testified here when he saw a questionnaire not completely filled out, then the psychiatrist does not have the material for judging the case and then the work has become senseless and there are no results. Since Mennecke, as his letters indicate, was striving to establish records, there is the possibility that he worked a little hastily, but I cannot remember that I talked to Mennecke at all on such a subject.
Q Witness, then how do you explain this testimony of the witness Mennecke, the assertion whether it was in the summer of 1940-1941, and whether it was because of you Nietzsche or Heyde that he got an assignment to carry out action 14-F-13?
A When Mennecke appeared here on the witness stand he was in a very bad or unfortunate situation. He had been condemned to death by another Court. Therefore, this testimony to the extent that it does not correspond to the truth, I can explain only from an effort in his difficult situation to shift the responsibility from himself to others, in this case to me, so that he could reduce his own responsibility and perhaps obtain clemency. It is quite possible that Mennecke received suggestions for what he did from Landesrat Bernotat and his associates. I have been able to learn now that the Hesse agent Bernotat was obviously a radical advocate of euthanasia and had a circle of such radical advocates of euthanasia. I also believe that Mennecke through Bernotat was recommended to Heyde or some one else as an expert.
Q You mean that Mennecke through a third person or perhaps on his own initiative had a very superficial and peculiar activity without orders from Heyde or Nietzsche or you?
A No, he was not even encouraged.
Q Now, Mr. Brack, it has been established that the euthanasia institutions, I remember the unfortunate name Bernburg, opened their doors to these transports of invalids so that those unfortunate people who were not sick could be gassed there, a fact from which every decent human being must turn away in horror? Then in your opinion how could such a thing happen?
A I learned that here during the trial. It is completely inexplicable to me. I knew nothing about it at the time. I can explain it only by influence from outside, from some other source, on T-4; perhaps the inspectorate of concentration camps, perhaps Grawitz, perhaps through Linden, who was Reich Deputy for mental institutions, I don't know.
Bouhler, if he had any idea of it would have immediately forbidden it and so would I.
Q Witness, you have testified to your knowledge about the action 14-F-13, you admit that in the summer of 1941 through Bouhler you were authorized to pass on an assignment to T-4, to have doctors available for psychiatric examinations of prisoners, but you deny having anything to do with action 14-F-13, as the witness Mennecke described on the basis of the order of 20 November, 1941, is that correct?
A Yes.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, then I have finished the charge of the Prosecution concerning the action 14-F-13, and now I come to euthanasia, Should I begin that now or does the Court wish to recess?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30.
(The Tribunal adjourned for the noon recess)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 14 May 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
VIKTOR BRACK - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. FROESCHMANN (Counsel for the Defendant Brack ):
Q. Witness, I remind you that you are still under oath.
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, dealing with the final chapter of euthanasia, I shall have to give you an opportunity to explain your affidavit 426, in the English Document Book Volume 14, page 10, and speak about it with reference to the point which deals with euthanasia. You have already mentioned the circumstances under which you made this statement, and you told us about the fact that you considered all the assertions by the prosecution as being justified, and you didn't offer any criticism. Would you please find out where the statements that you are making now deviate from the statements as were given by you then?
A. I never spoke of any euthanasia program, the interrogators used that word for the first time. I don't know whether I objected to that word, but, in effect, a program cannot be talked of - when speaking about a program I understand a project which is limited by time and which is planned carefully, and where success is expected at the end. In order to make the examination a little easier, I shall continue to use the word "program", although the expression itself is not correct.
The prosecution on the 10th of January 1947 said that this program was carried out from September 1939 until April 1945. That is not correct. It was stopped in August of 1941. The euthanasia program during that period of time dealt only with incurable mental patients. What happened up to August 1941 was not the execution of the program, an is asserted by the prosecution, - which had as its aim the systematic murder or execution of hundreds of thousands of human beings, the murder of insane persons, deformed children and people suffering of incurable diseases, as General Taylor said in his opening statement on 21 November 1946, on page 4 of the transcript - but it was rather an attempt to solve a problem which is as old as the history of humanity itself.
What happened after the stoppage of that program in 1941 has nothing at all to do with the execution of euthanasia, with perhaps a few singular exceptions.
Q. Witness, the prosecution has submitted the affidavit of a certain Leusser. This is prosecution document number 3864PS, Exhibit 367, English Document Book No. 14, page 251; German document Book Volume 14, part 3, page 170. Have you that document book before you? Document Volume 14, part 3, page 251? In this document Doctor Leusser says that the transports extended from 1940 to 1941, up until 1944. What have you to say about that?
A. In paragraph 2 of that document Dr. Leusser says and I quote: "My knowledge about the occurences in the lunatic asylum at Ansbach during the war are based on information, which I received in the first place mostly from Dr. Schuch, but also from Frau Dr. asam, one Dr. Priesmann, who was working at the asylum, but was removed on account of his membership to the party, and from the nursing personnel."
In other words, Leusser does not speak from his own knowledge but is speaking on the basis of knowledge he received from third parties. These third parties are, however, make entirely different statements. One of the nurses, as well as asam and Schuch, places the time of the transfers up to the beginning of 1942. That is not quite correct in view of the clear period of time when Euthanasia stopped which can clearly be proved. It was august 1941. I remind you hare of the testimony of the witnesses Mennecke and Schmidt.
Q. Mr. President, with respect to the witness Ganzer I may refer to Prosecution Document 3867-PS, Exhibit 369, English Document Book 14, page 256. German Document Book 14, part 3, page 176.
A. The statement with which we are concerned can be found in his last paragraph and I quote:
"I estimate that in all five transports of this kind were sent out from the Heil-und Pflege Anstalt, Ansbach, between the years 1940 and. the beginning of 1942."
Q. Now, would you please speak about NO-246.
A. During these transfers - I don't know the wording of the decree of the 1 September 1939 which was issued by Hitler, which erroneously was designated as secret.
Q. Mr. President, the decree which is just mentioned by the witness can be found in Document 630PS, Exhibit 330, English Document Book Volume 14, page 3, and German Document Book Volume 14, part 1, page 1.
A. It says in my affidavit this decree entrusted Bouhler and Brandt with the responsibility of killing people who were not capable of life. This does not correspond with the fact but it says in the decree Dr. Brandt and Reichsleiter Bouhler are charged with the responsibility of enlarging the authority of certain physicians to be designated by name in such a manner that person who, according to human judgment, are incurable can, upon most careful diagnosis of their condition of sickness, be accorded a mercy death."
Q. Now in your affidavit Paragraph 12 you also dealt with the purpose of the so-called Euthanasia Program and here some of your statements need also be elucidated.
A. In that connection I can only say that this entire paragraph, the same as paragraph 15 of my affidavit, does not originate from me but was drafted by the interrogating officer. At first I objected to that paragraph because I never really learned the true reasons of Hitler. I also stated that when Euthanasia was ordered and executed I did not represent the opinion that is contained in that paragraph. However, in view of everything I have realized since I actually held the point of view at the time of my interrogation that these could have been the true motives which moved Hitler. That is why I could be persuaded to sigh my name to that paragraph the contents of which don't originate from me. That refers to paragraph 12 of my affidavit.
Q. This is to be found in Document Volume 14 and it is paragraph 12 of Brack's affidavit. I quote:
"Hitler's ultimate reason for the establishment of the Euthanasia Program in Germany was to eliminate those people confined to insane asylums and similar institutions who could no longer be of any use to the Reich. They were considered useless eaters and Hitler felt that by exterminating these so-called useless eaters, it would be possible to relieve more doctors, male and female, nurses, and other personnel, hospital beds and other facilities for use of the Armed Forces."
That is the paragraph?
A. Yes that is correct. During the interrogations I emphasized that on our part any position, any attitude as it is stated here regarding useless eaters was actually never taken. If, on the other hand, any such reasons of expediency were introduced into the debate by third parties they wore almost rigidly rejected. I have already pointed out that I really need not have to resort to draw any such conclusions. I just recognized them.
Q. Now, witness, we need not revert to what the witness Lammers has said here because this really would be an argument which could only be included in the final plea. But is it not true that if Hitler had had the intention to designate these insane people as useless caters he would have used this expression in some manner towards Lammers, too?
A. I assume with certainty that some such expression would have been used during negotiations with Lammers if any such intentions had existed at that time. I would like to point out, however, that it would have been utterly senseless to perform Euthanasia for reasons of expediency at a time when there was a sufficient stock of nourishment and then to stop Euthanasia at a time when the events of the war required stricter measures and when lack of nourishment came about - and it is exactly in that year when Euthanasia was stopped.
Q. In that connection I submit Brack Exhibit 34 into evidence which will be Document No. 30 which is to be found in my Document Book No. 2 on page 9. This is the affidavit of Dr. Walter Schultze who was born 1 January 1894 in Hersbruck, former Ministerial Director in the Bavarian Ministry of the Interior. This is an affidavit made on 11 April 1947.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you once more give me the exhibit number that you assigned to that document?
DR. FROESCHMANN: I offer that document, Mr. President as Exhibit No. 34. This document bears the date of 11 April 1947 and was signed by Dr. Schultze. It was certified by me in the proper manner. I shall only read the following short sentences from the document. The witness says I quote: "At the end of 1939 or early in 1940 the former Bavarian Minister of the Interior and Gauleiter Adolf Wagner received an official visit by the Reichsleiter Bouhler.
"As the Chief Medical Officer of Bavaria I was asked to attend this discussion. On this occasion Bouhler officially informed Wagner of a secret ordinance of the Fuehrer. Bouhler showed Wagner the original document which had in to top left corner the swastika and the name Adolf Hitler in gold print".
I go on reading from paragraph 3:
"3. I recall the following details of this discussion:
"e) We also discussed the motives for these measures and felt certain that this Fuehrer ordinance would be welcomed as a measure dictated by purely ethical reasons as explained by Bouhler.
The above mentioned procedure ensured that any misuse and human error was eliminated.
"4. On the strength of this discussion I was convinced and had this conviction confirmed by Wagner after Bouhlers departure, that the intentions were entirely clean and highly ethical."
"6) The expression "useless eaters" I never heard mentioned by either Bouhler or Brack, nor have I heard it elsewhere.
"Brack once asked me how it might be possible to re-employ the monies which would be saved as a result of the application of euthanasia for the benefit of curable cases of mental deficiency. I was very pleased at this question as it proved to me that it was intended to utilize such money for the benefit of the suffering community and not for other purposes in the National budget. However, I pointed out to Brack at the time that it was more important in my opinion to provide more beds for TB victims as TB was rapidly increasing to epidemic proportions and as there were exceptionally few TB Sanatoria in Germany."
"7) Had I possibly had any doubts in this matter, Bouhlers personality would have reassured me that this sound and serious matter had been placed in good and proper hands, for I had known Bouhler for many years as an exceptionally fine, highly intellectual almost holy person."
I shall ask the Tribunal to take notice of the rest of the document. Witness, would you please continue with the discussion of your affidavit NO-426 as far as you think that you can raise any more objections that refer to Euthanasia
A I would only shortly like to point to the question of the Reich Comittee. From the very beginning I pointed out that this matter was dealt with in the Reich Ministry of the Interior by Dr. Linden and that I could only give very inexact information about that matter. What I can say today is essentially the result of conferences between my defense counsel and persons who had knowledge about these matters, as well as my own study of the files in this trial. According to this result, the Reich Committee for the Collection of People Suffering from Hereditary Diseases was not one of the tasks of the euthanasia program.
Q Witness; this brings you to the conclusion of your attitude regarding the deviating points in your affidavit.
Mr. President; I think that it is expedient and advisable that; at this moment, I submit to the High Tribunal the chart which had been drawn by the defendant Brack and it refers to the organization of euthanasia. It forms a part of the affidavit which Brack had made in the course of the evidence on the part of the defendant Karl Brandt; when this statement of Brack was made on the 27th of January 1947 and I incorporated it in my document book #2 as Document 28, on page 5. I offer it as Brack Exhibit #35, I have had charts made for the benefit of the prosecution and for the benefit of the Tribunal which, according to their contents; exactly correspond with the chart to be found on the wall. I ask you to use this chart when following the evidence.
Witness, in the course of the evidence concerning euthanasia we can be much briefer than we originally intended because, on the one hand, the witness Hederich and mainly; the witness Pfannmueller, have spoken about the details at great length. I think that this would be in compliance with the wishes of the Tribunal and that they would desire us to proceed in a manner where I would ask you whether you have any additional statements to make to the statements which were already made by the witnesses. Let us be as brief as possible in order not to take up too much time of the Tribunal.
Witness, you are the very man who, together with Bouhler, and by order of Bouhler, from the very beginning, has been active within euthanasia. You are the man who executed Bouhler's orders. Is it correct that, in the course of the year of 1939 - and that was already stated by the defendant Brandt - repeated applications arrived at your institute emanating from parents who asked that a mercy death should be granted to their deformed children through medical interference? Is that right?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Furthermore, is it correct that Hitler found out about that through his Adjutant's office?
A Yes.
Q Now, what do you know about the further development of things to the extent as it was not already clarified by Pfannmueller or Hederich? I emphasize now that we are, at first, concerned with the registration of the deformed children which really the pre-history to euthanasia as it concerned insane people.
A Conti had called a committee through whom he tried to ascertain, and that as I heard from Bouhler by order of Hitler, how a basical solution could be arrived at concerning these applications. This small circle of people was called the Reich Committee for the Registration of Patients Suffering from Diseases Caused by Hereditary or Predisposition.
Q You were just saying that Conti had received the order from Hitler to call together a committee in order to bring about a basical solution of that question. Was that quite correct? Was it not rather that, at the beginning, only the known cases were to be considered and, as a result of the known cases, some medical judgment was to be formed?
DR. HOCHWALD: If the Tribunal please, I would ask Dr. Froeschmann not to put a question in such a leading way.
DR. FROESCHMANN: I am not conscious of having put a leading question.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed. The witness may explain.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
A Mr. Bouhler stated clearly that Conti had received the order to search a basical solution to that problem. These cases went to various agencies and Hitler only, by accident, learned about one or another case whenever the Adjutant's office got to know about it. Conti, however, informed him that such applications arrived at various offices and, as a result, Conti received the order to search for some opportunity to register all these cases in order to enable a medical opinion to be made.
Q Witness, the witness Pfannmueller and the witness Hoderich have repeatedly mentioned the name of Dr. Linden in that connection. This Dr. Linden, as far as I can overlook the matter, seems to have played a considerable part within the framework of euthanasia. It would be expedient for you to speak somewhat about Dr. Linden and his official position because he appears in the chart in the organization of euthanasia as the Reich Plenipotentiary for Mental Institutions. May I point the Tribunal's attention to the box which can be found on the loft hand side of the chart.
A This Dr. Linden was a member of the Health Department of the Reich Ministry of the Interior which was headed by Conti. I only drew him in this plan, mentioning his strictly official capacity - namely the Reich Plenipotentiary for Mental Institutions. In addition, Linden also headed the Reich Committee for the Registration of Patients with Severe Diseases Caused by Hereditary or Predisposition. This, however, was no state position; his state position was the position of Reich Plenipotentiary for Mental Institutions and as such he was drawn under the block of Conti. He was a physician. According to my recollection, he was even a psychiatrist. What his medical political aims wore, I cannot say. At any rate, he had had a considerable experience in medical administration. Before having come to the Ministry of Interior he had already been active in medical administration. He, at first, was subordinate to Frick and after 1943 was subordinated to Himmler.
Hat his other fields of work within the Ministry of the Interior, except the Reich Plenipotentiary for Mental Institutions, I don't know. In the course of the development of the performance of euthanasia, Linden took an increasingly stronger influence in that execution. I personally knew nothing about the medical problem. I was only Bouhler's assistant. It was, however, reassuring for me to know that the Reich Ministry of the Interior had collaborated in a task which concerned it to that extent. Of course, I didn't know a number of matters which I could only find out on the basis of the documents which are available to me. If Linden was only participating in the expert questions and if he was only participating in the arrangements of the transfers, a connection between his office and the office of Tiergartenstrasse has resulted. This was possible because Bouhler was in no way opposed to his aspirations for independence and the two officials Bohne and Allers were officials of the Reich Ministry of the Interior. These two officials have been entered upon this chart and can be found under the square "Organization for the Execution of Euthanasia" -- beneath that, "Public Foundations for Institutional Care Bohne and Allers." In view of the arrangements regarding the allocations of beds considering the air situation, Linden, on his own initiative, determined when and to what institutions they were to be transferred. This is something that Bouhler originally directed, but it was then taken over by Linden.