Q Now, when the children were set aside for euthanasia did you then
A Please?
Q When you decided that children should be subjected to euthanasia to relieve them from their suffering, did you then notify the parents or guardian of the children concerned?
A Yes, they were told ahead of time by my departmental physician.
Q They were told before you applied the euthanasia?
A Oh, yes. We told the relatives that it would be expedient to visit the child because the child was sick and the relatives did come. In the beginning of luminal treatment the child wakes up from time to time until the final cumutative effect of luminal sets in.
Q Did you instruct the parents and guardian that you were going to administer luminal treatment to the child?
A No, no, that was a top secret matter.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions to the witness, Your Honor.
DR. PELKMANN: Mr. President, before this session is recessed may I request that Dr. Schaeffer be excused from attending the session this afternoon, and tomorrow morning, since he is not concerned in the matter now under discussion, for the preparation of his case.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, you are attorney for defendant Schaeffer and you desire to consult with him this afternoon concerning the preparation of his case?
DR. PELKMANN: And tomorrow also, please.
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant Schaeffer's case will soon be called for trial. Upon request of his counsel defendant Schaeffer will be excused from attendance before the Tribunal this afternoon and tomorrow morning, in order that his counsel may consult with him for the preparation of his case.
Before proceeding with the further examination of this witness I would ask counsel for defendant Brack if he desires to examine this witness any further?
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, I had intended to conduct a rather extensive redirect examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Before opening the redirect the Tribunal will take a noon recess, and will recess until 1:30.
(Thereupon the noon recess was taken.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal reconvened at 1330 hours, 12 May 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for the defendant may re-examine the witness.
HERMANN PFANNMUELLER - Resumed REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. FROESCHMANN (Counsel for the Defendant Brack):
Q Witness, in the cross-examination by the prosecutor you essentially repeated, all the statements that you had made during the direct examination, only in a few points could your answer perhaps be clarified to avoid any errors, and it is these points upon which I should like to question you now. First of all, a personal question Doctor, you, yourself, are a neurologist.
A Yes.
Q And consequently, know the term "prison psychosis" from science. Is it true that you, witness, found yourself in such a state in Frankfurt on the Main?
A No, I did not have a prison psychosis any longer in Frankfurt, as far as I remember, it was the beginning of October until almost a year ago now. This prison psychosis was terrible, and I wouldn't want my worst enemy to go through what I experienced.
Q Doctor, I do not want to know the condition, I simply want to know when you had this prison psychosis. It seems to have been 1945-46.
A There were the acute symptoms hallucinations and illusions, condition of mental clarity, but not complete, and then I was in a transition positive personality, and in Frankfort it became worse again.
Q Doctor, I am interested in this connection in only one further question. Does this prison psychosis still have an effect on you now, particularly in regards to dates?
A My memory has become considerably weakened since I was ill, and perhaps even before that time, because of all the conditions of arrest and removal from my work.
I don't know; but there are many things that I can't remember at all and many things that I can only remember partly.
Q Doctor, I ask this question only because the prosecutor at the beginning of his cross-examination, submitted various things to you that you had said in Frankfort to the American interrogator or the German investigating official, and because the impartial observer must gain the impression that what you said in Frankfort does not agree with what you said during your direct examination.
A During the interrogation here, before I went into Franfort, I was in worse condition. Suddenly being locked up was a terrible experience for me, and I believe I can say that I had signs of hallucinations. I was not aware of any difference.
Q Doctor, it is my impression that you made visible efforts to speak the absolute truth?
A I think I can say that.
Q And did so in all the questions that the prosecutor asked you. Let me now turn to the matters that I should like to discuss with you myself. The first subject is the following. You spoke of the how Top Secret matters were treated. Do you know that it was a general rule in Germany that administrative officers, Wehrmacht officers, etc., had specific orders, according to which the so-called top secret matters were to be handled only by people who were specifically authorized to.
A Yes, that was the case even before the war when my personnel were drafted into the army. I myself was obligated. I put the papers into the safe myself.
Q Can you also say that on the basis of this order authorized people were obligated by a handshake and were informed of the previsions of German law, that if they failed to maintain secrecy they would be subject to severe penalty and to the death during wartime.
A Yes, I know that when the mobilization orders came out I myself was obligated to secrecy by a handshake by my superior authority, and I was told that there were severe penalties and perhaps even the death penalty.
Q. Then this obligation to was a general secrecy measure in the interest of the security of the German Reich?
A. I assume so, as the oath of office of the civil servant is the basis of his function.
Q. Now, the second subject I should like to breach. The Prosecutor has charged you on the basis of Document No. 1313 in Document Book 17, page 6 of the English Document Book. This is the letter that Dr. Hoelzel sent to you?
A. It is on page 4.
Q. Yes, page 4. It is dated 28 August 1940. I am now interested only in the date. I would like to discuss this letter with you briefly. Do you have the book before you now?
A. No, I handed it in.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor, Defense Counsel has stated erroneously that the Prosecution has charged this witness with some activities. I don't know what he is referring to, in connection with this document. I merely put the document to the witness for an explanation, I haven't charged the witness with anything, to my knowledge, and I wish that to be clarified.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, I quite agree with the Prosecution, but I do believe it will help the Tribunal if I did ask one question regarding this letter.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may propound the question.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. In this letter on page 4 I shall hand you the document. "What has endered to me the worn in the Children's House was not the scientific interest, but the physician's urge, amidst our often fruitless labor, to help and at least to improve many of our cases here. The psychological evaluation, and the curative and pedagogic influence were always much closer to my heart than anatomical curiosities, no matter how interesting they were.
And so it comes about that, although I am sure that I can preserve my full objectivity in giving expert opinions, I feel myself somehow tied emotionally to the children as their medical guardian."
Doctor, my question to you is, it can be seen from this letter of Hoelzel that at that time you wanted to commission him with the direction of this children's home, so that he could apply new therapeutical methods there?
A. I cannot deny that possibility, but it is also possible that at the time the first questionnaires were given out for the registration of these children, I don't remember.
Q. Thank you. The third question. At the conclusion of your testimony, it was said that you, witness, did not ask the consent of the parents of the children who were to be subjected to Euthanasia?
A. No, that was not done.
Q. Now my question is, do you know that the consent of the parents for admission to the Children's Home and thus to the possibility of Euthanasia had to be given to the Amtsarzt?
A. I know that the Amtsarzt could send the children to the institution on the basis of the questionnaire. I also know that the children could be accepted only with the consent of the parents. The child simply came to me, I did not ask the parent's consent either. They were sent by the Amtsarzt or by the family; but I don't know what the parents were told about the treatment given to the Children.
Q. This morning you said, in answer to a question by the Prosecutor which had to do with the collection of Jewish mental patients in your institution and their later transfer to Poland; do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. I put to you now Document No. 1135, an excerpt of which is contained in Document Book 14, Page 25. This is the collection of the transport lists, which had to be shown to the director of the mental institute by the transport company whenever there was a transport and the patients who were listed were compared with the list given the institution. Now please take a look at this list and tell me what you know about the accompanying letters from the transport company, how does it begin?
A. "In accordance with the decision of the state ministry of the Interior, I have upon order of the Reich Association of mental Institutions, Reichsarbeitsgemeinschaft, and as responsible chief of the General Patients Transport Company G.m.b.H., taken charge of the transfer of the patients enumerated in the list below to a Reich institution." I don't know the letter.
Q. You do know this letter, don't you?
A. No, I never saw it.
Q. Your administrative officer saw it, is that what you mean?
A. No, we did not fill that out, we never saw it.
Q. You don't understand my question. If a transport train reached your institution and fetched away patients, you had previously received some sort of a notice to prepare for the transport a certain number of patients; isn't that so?
A. No, the method was a little different. I was given transport lists; these lists said that the patients were to be picked up on such and such a day by the General Patient Transport Company.
Q. And then the leader of this transport filled out this certification that you just read?
A. I don't know, I merely had him give me a confirmation that he had taken such and such patients.
Q. And it says here, "In accordance with the decision of the State Ministry of the Interior, I have, upon order of the Reich Association of Mental Institutions."
A. I don't see that. No, this is signed by the commissioner.
Q. But in the confirmation itself, it says, "In accordance with the decision of the State Ministry of the Interior and upon order of the Reich Association of Mental Institutions;" I lay particular weight upon those two words. Now, if you will turn a few pages over where I stuck the little slip of paper, this is a list of the Jewish patients who were taken away on 10 September 1940, is there an accompanying letter?
A. No, there is no accompanying letter, no, no.
Q. Please examine the document carefully.
A. Oh, yes, here it is; on page 13, you mean.
Q. Now, when adult incurably insane persons were fetched was there not a printed form that was used?
A. No, this paper -- the patients were taken by me today, leader of the transport, Eglfing-Haar and the date --- that is by me, because I told the man I wanted a receipt for the patients, otherwise he would not have given me any.
Q. Now, from this document please note; that regarding all other incurably insane persons there were form lists of transports which were printed; you find transport lists six, seven, eight, etc.
A. I don't believe I filled them out, I don't know.
Q. I don't believe you did either. I simply want to ask you, and this is the point of my whole series of questions; in the transport of 20 September, 1940, in this document I have shown you, this list of the Jewish patients; was this list also contained in the printed form or was it made up especially by you?
A. I am sorry, I did not understand your question.
Q. In the document I have just out to you, the list of the Jewish patients, of 20 September 1940....?
A. The 23rd you mean?
Q. No, the 20th.
A. The 20th? On page 18 it says 23.
Q. Well, never mind the date, at least its September 1940. Let's go on. Now, I will ask you again. Is this list on a printed form list for transports, or is this list of the Jewish patients something that you yourself prepared on a special paper?
A. No, that is the list which I was given, it is a transport list giving the names and their dates of birth.
Q. And who wrote this transport list?
A. I received it from the transport company as far as I know. I don't know exactly how it was in the transfer of the Jews, but in any case the transport company brought the list. It probably came from the ministry in Munich; I don't know.
Q. If I understand you correctly, you said five minutes ago that you saw to it that you got such a list so you would have something in your hands by way of a receipt?
A No, no, that is a misunderstanding. I got a receipt, a certificate on a copy of the transport list. The man in charge of the transport had a list, and I had earlier received a list of the patients who were going to be picked up, and on the list which I had received, on the carbon copy of it, I had the man give me a certificate that he had taken these patients. That is how it happened.
Q Then this morning you said also that you were told that these patients were taken to Poland?
A The man in charge of the transport told me that, I believe.
Q Am I wrong in saying that on Friday morning you said that these Jewish mental patients were to be sent to a Bavarian Jewish institution?
A I can't remember saying that they went to a Bavarian institution, but a Jewish Institution, an institute for Jewish insane patients, but I don't remember exactly.
Q Do you know, Doctor, that one of the Jewish women named on this list died in Schelm, according to your own report?
A No. When I got a book or a collection of documents, from you, I found something in there about death notice in Schelm. I can't remember the name? Schelm.
Q Now, another question. When was the second meeting in Berlin in which you took part?
A The meeting of experts?
Q The second meeting.
A I don't know Doctor. With the best intentions, I can't remember. I have said so repeatedly, but it was about I think, a few months, perhaps three months, later. I don't know exactly.
Q In connections with this meeting, you were then asked to take up your activities that is how it was.
Q Doctor, you have repeatedly said, that it was in your ideas at the first meeting that this was to be a total registration of all insane persons for the purpose of transferring them separate mental institutions; is that so?
A Yes.
Q Now, in the course of the second meeting, was there any mention of any measures, without using the word "euthanasia," which did, however refer to euthanasia?
A Doctor, this question is very difficult to answer. I cannot deny the possibility. I cannot remember anything in detail in this connection, but I really must admit the possibility that euthanasia or measures for eliminating such patients were discussed, but I repeatedly said in Frankfurt, too, that after all these years and in view of my condition in cannot remember details.
Q Consequently, you will also admit the possibility that when carrying on your activity as an expert you knew, if not in detail, then at any rate in general, that the purpose of this expert activity was to separate the curable from the incurable mental patients?
A Yes, of course.
Q Now, one last question Doctor: You were specifically instructed by the Tribunal to refuse to answer questions that might serve to incriminate you. You have made no use of that right, and particularly in answer to the question of the Prosecutor, as to how many children there were whose lives you shortened in your institution by the use of luminal you answered in a most credible way that you gave a mercy death to 100 or 120 of these wretched creatures.
A I don't remember the numbers exactly.
Q I am not so much interested in the actual numbers as in the fact. You further replied, with no regard for your personal safety, that you had been known as an advocate of euthanasia for more than twenty-five years. Is that true?
A Yes.
Q You also said explicitly that in cases of malformed or feebleminded children you felt justified, in view of the ministerial decision and of what was said in this expert conference in granting these children euthanasia after you had received previous authorization to do so, is that true?
A Yes.
Q Finally, you admitted and said that the manner of administering death that you chose was the method that could put these poor children out of their misery with the least pain to themselves, is that so? Is that true?
A Yes.
Q In other words, you acted with complete conviction of the legality of what you did?
A Yes.
Q Now, my colleague Servatius, has called one final question to my attention, which I should, like to discuss with you briefly. Doctor at the beginning of my direct examination, you said that you had about 2900 insane patients in your institution in 1939 and 1940, approximately.
Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Now, when you received these questionnaires, regarding roughly how many people did you fill out questionnaires?
A I did not understand your question.
Q When you received the questionnaires regarding the incurable mental cases, you had to fill them out?
A Yes.
Q My question is: Regarding how many mental cases, approximately, did you fill out these questionnaires?
A I don't remember. I think it was less than 1000.
Q Less than 1000?
A Yes about a third.
Q Were foreigners among them?
A I can't remember any foreigners. I don't know exactly. I had a few.
Q How many mental patients were taken away, transferred, from your institution?
A Do you mean patients form my own institution?
Q I mean only your own incurable ones.
A Certainly many loss than the number if questionnaires.
Q I want to ask you how many approximately.
A Well, approximately, may be 500 to 600, I estimate. It was like this: These transports generally affected the people in transit.
Q I simply wanted to know roughly how many of the people covered by questionnaires were in the course of time transferred elsewhere.
A I can't give figures exactly, of course, but certainly not as many as were recorded in the questionnaires.
Q And these questionnaires which were made out by you, they were expertized by other experts?
A Yes, of course. They were done by other people.
Q Now, if they were expertized with a plus sign, were they pretty much in the same proportion as the questionnaires which you yourself expertized? Were there more or were there less?
A Quite a number of cases which I had judge positively were not picked up.
Q In other words to the best of your knowledge, the patients whom you designated as positive were apparently declared by other experts to be ready for euthanasia?
A I cannot teel you the reason why they were not picked up, Doctor, There might have been some other reason, but the transfer cases sent to my institution from idiot institutions were considered more urgent for transfer than my own cases, and for that reason perhaps my own cases were put aside. I cannot say, because the project did not go on.
I don't know the reasons.
Q Doctor, this morning the Prosecution brought to your attention the number of questionnaires that you had expertized. Do you remember that?
A Yes.
Q At the last moment I got hold of one of the questionnaires of the original type.
I cannot of course, put this questionnaire in as a document because the time available is too short, but, with the permission of the Tribunal and the Prosecution, I should like to show such a questionnaire form to the witness and ask him to tell the Tribunal briefly, if possible, whether the contents of such a questionnaire, if it sets down the condition very briefly of the patient, whether it could be put aside by you as positive, en masse, so to speak, or whether or not it couldn't be seen right from the beginning that hundreds of the questionnaires were filled out incorrectly and so were just put aside.
How was that?
A. In many cases in filling out questionnaires I saw from the very beginning that this was not a case for transfer. In other cases, however, I was able to see immediately, if it w s filled out right - that is an old idiot, that is congenital idiocy , that is an old case of schizophrenic deterioration, where on can judge only positively.
MR. HARDY: Prosecution has no objection to use of this document, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
Q. Witness, please take a look at this questionnaire. Now, from what you see there can you say whether this man is plus or minus, or just what is he?
A. Am I supposed to form a judgment on the patient on this form?
Q. The entry there.
A. It seems to me that it is not filled out completely. It says here -- First of all, it is not clear....
MR. HARDY: Just a moment, witness. May it please your honor, apparently I misunderstood the import of Defense Counsel's question. I though he merely wanted to use the questionnaire as a form to put to the witness. There are some pencil notations on this form, however, it doesn't appear from my quick perusal and my lack of German knowledge that this purports to be an application or a questionnaire completely filled out in said manner that he would have received such a questionnaire when he was acting in his capacity as an expert. If that is what Defense Counsel desires to do here, I suggest that he outline a hypothetical question in far more detail than he has done on that questionnaire and explain to the Tribunal his purpose.
Thus far I can't ascertain his purpose, what is on the questionnaire, and obviously the witness can't either.
DR. FROESCHMANN: In showing this questionnaire to the witness in its German original I wanted to give the witness the opportunity to read the contents of the questionnaire and tell the Tribunal what he has to say about what the entries in this questionnaire, so that the Tribunal can see whether a irreproachable evaluation of this patient could be undertaken. That was the purpose of my question.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I feel certain the Tribunal will be as interested as I will to hear the answer of the witness. However, this questionnaire has not been filled out, and if the questionnaire is not filled out I don't see now the witness can answer the question asked.
THE PRESIDENT: Submit the document to the Tribunal.
JUDGE SEBRING: Counsel, in this form that you have submitted to the witness there appears to be a considerable number of questions to be answered if the form is to be complete. However, in some of the vacant spaces after questions appears handwriting by someone. Those handwriting is that?
DR. FROESCHMANN: That I cannot tell you at the mement, because during the noon recess I recess I received this questionnaire, and a doctor wrote what is on that form in, as an sample, so to speak. Now, I wanted to hear whether, if the witness had received such a questionnaire, he should have been in a position to say right off "I can characterize this as plus or minus," or would he have to say "I would have to return this questionnaire as incomplete".
JUDGE SEBRING: Will it not be necessary that you ask certain preliminary questions before you get to that question? One, to the witness, "What is the paper I now hand you" "Do you recognize the form?" If he should say, "Yes, it is a form often used by us in our clinical work in determining the diagnosis and prognosis of a disease of a certain person," then, "state whether or not the hypothetical clinical finding that I have written in this familiar or compares with any clinical findings you have ever seen, or is it similar to the one that was used?" Then, "Can you say from that type of clinical finding whet would nave been your result, plus or minus?"
DR. FROESCHMANN: Then may I ask that I be given the form again? The questionnaires are in Document book 14 II.
MR. HARDY: May it please your honor, would it be possible for the benefit of the Prosecution that Defense Counsel outline the hypothetical question set forth in this questionnaire before it is put to the witness for an answer?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, the Tribunal see no objection to that.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, in the clinical description in this questionnaire the following is said: "Schizophrenia - 2 relapses - last one 1917 - since 1915 final condition reached - very restless - several attempts at suicide." It says further, "Scnizophrenia New case? No. - Final condition? -- Yes. Cure? - No." Furthermore "Therapy twice. - Permanent results? - NO. Those are the entries.
MR. HARDY: Might I further inquire, Your Honor, what the note is on the too of the questionnaire?
DR. FROESCHMANN: I didn't read that.
MR. HARDY: Then I assume that the witness is to ignore the note on the top of the questionnaire?
DR. FROESCHMANN: No.
JUDGE SEBRING: Dr. Froeschmann, I suppose that from the statement of facts that you have now propounded to the witness, you want him to say whether or not merely from a cursory examination he would recommend this man for the privilege of a mercy death. Is that the point?
DR. FROESCHMANN: Yes, that is right.
Witness, did you hear the judges' explanation?
A. Whether I would judge this case positively or not. Gentlemen, this questionnaire is useless. You can see that in this minute I was not able to reach any decision. The Tribunal could see that, I wanted to make a similar note before. It says 2 relapses 1917. At the bottom it says, since 1915 final condition. That is a lie. That questionnaire is inaccurate. If that man was in a final condition in 1915 he can't have relapses in 1917. I say that case can't be dealt with.
DR. FROESCHMANN: That suffices. Thank you.
DR. PFANNMUELLER: Besides, it says nothing about therapy.
DR. FROESCHMANN: That quite suffices. Mr. President
DR. PFANNMUELLER: Such questionnaires would never have been sent out by my institution, thanks to my doctors and the intelligence of my nursing personnel.
DR. FROESCHMANN: But, you as an expert did see such questionnaires?
A. Oh, yes, I got very inadequate ones.
Q. And dues that explain your statement this morning that you could take whole piles of these questionnaires and say they were completely useless?
A. Yes, I put a red line through such things and that was that.
Q. No further questions, your Honor.
DR. SERVATIUS FOR THE DEFENDANT KARL BRANDT:
Q. Mr. President, please permit me one question regarding the number of foreigners in the institution at the beginning of the war, in 1939? Witness, how many foreigners in the institution when the war started?
A. Doctor, it is impossible for me to answer that question. Just consider, that was 7-8 years ago or something like that. I don't know.
Q. Witness, you must have some sort of impression?
A. No, I nave no impression at all. I had so few foreigners - I don't think more than 5 or 6.
Q. In other words, you are able to answer the question - 5 or 6.
A. But I don't know exactly, doctor. I can't remember any more foreigners at that time.
Q. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further questions in behalf of Defense Counsel? There being none, has the Prosecution any further questions?
MR. Hardy: The Prosecution has no further questions to put to this witness, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness PFannmeuller is excused from the witness stand.
74l2
DR. FROESCHMANN (For Defendant Viktor Brack): Mr. President, with the permission of the Tribunal, I should like to call the Defendant Viktor Brack as a witness at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: At the request of his counsel, the Defendant Viktor Brack will take the witness stand.
JUDGE SEBRING: You will raise your right hand and take the oath, repeating after me.
I swear by God, the almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SEBRING: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Mr. Brack, please state your full name.
A Viktor Hermann Brack.
Q When were you born?
A 9 November, 1904.
Q Your father was a doctor, a general practitioner in Wachenhein?
A Yes.
Q And then in Bad Duorkhein your father opened a children's sanatorium?
A Correct, yes.
Q Your mother was a German of foreign birth?
A Yes.
Q What was the consequence?
A In my youth I was sent to my relatives abroad, and got to know the Baltic States and Russia.
Q How were you brought up in your own home?
A We were all very strictly brought up. My mother was a very strict Catholic.