If on the other hand he had a very visible injury, as a result of the war, supposing one of his arms was missing or one of his finders was missing, or supposing a severe physical condition has resulted because of the war, as tuberculosis, I can assure you that these people were not considered positive.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, I have no further questions to the witness.
JUDGE SEBRING: Witness, the Tribunal has one or two questions it would like to ask.
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q. As I recollect your testimony you said that at the meeting of the Reich Committee in Berlin where the euthanasia problem was considered it was there determined that Jews were not to be included in the euthanasia program; did I understand you correctly?
A. I am afraid I wasn't in a position to follow your question exactly.
Q. State whether or not Jews were to be included in the euthanasia program?
A. I didn't know that Jews were to be included. I never heard of that.
Q. Then you don't know whether they were to the included or excluded?
A. That I really don't know. The cases in my institutions were treated equally. I made no difference at all.
Q. Then so far as you know in expertizing these various cases a person would be expertized and a decision made from a psychiatric and mental point of view with at the slightest consideration being made to whether he was a Jew or non-Jew, is that correct?
A. Well, I never made any difference when dealing with these cases, bat none of them were transferred.
Q. None of whom?
A. None of the Jews, none of the jews were transferred. None of the Jews were sent to the euthanasia transport as far as I know.
Q. Why?
A. As I already said initially, the Jews were sent to a Jewish Institute through a collective transport on the basis of an order by the Bavarian ministry of the Interior.
Q. And do you know whether or not at that Jewish Institution selections were made for mercy deaths?
A. No, I don't know that. I had nothing to do with that.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, may I state that the witness is somewhat deaf, and that is why I ask that the interpreter speak a little louder when speaking in German to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Has defense counsel any further questions to this witness? There being none the Prosecution may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Dr. Pannmueller, have you been interrogated by Mr. Rodell?
A. Yes, I only learned his name a little later.
Q. And you have been interrogated by Dr. Hochwald, the Czecho Slovakian attorney working for the Prosecution here in Nurnberg?
A. Yes, there was another gentleman there. I don't know whether that was Mr. Hochwald or not. I later learned a certain Mr. Hochwald was there.
Q. Have you been interrogated by the Prosecutor of the German Court in Frankfurt?
A. Yes, I was interrogated by a number of investigating judges, three or four of them.
Q. When you were interrogated by Mr. Rodell and Mr. Hochwald were you under oath?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you under oath when you were interrogated by the German Prosecutor?
A. No.
Q. Then you realize, of course, you are under oath here?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. Will you kindly tell the Tribunal in your opinion why the euthanasia program was instituted in Germany?
A. I don't know that. I am not informed about that and I, therefore, cannot tell you that. Only at a later date I had. occasion to see the Reichsleiter Bouhler, where he showed me a letter, according to which a decree had been issued by the Fuehrer which constituted the basis for the execution of the euthanasia program. Bouhler showed me that personally upon my request. I don't know whether at that time I already knew about euthanasia or whether the question was just pending then. At any rate I assumed that euthanasia may come into question.
Q. Did Bouhler show you a letter from the Fuehrer?
A. Yes, I thought that this was the original. I saw the photostatic copy in Frankfurt. I can no longer remember that exactly but I do know that in the letter which Bouhler showed to me -
Q. We have the letter. I just merely want to ask you a few questions about it. Can you tell us the date on the letter, was it 1 September 1939?
A. I didn't write any letter.
Q. I am asking you about the Fuehrer letter that Bouhler exhibited to you?
A. Oh, the Fuehrer decree, yes. Would you please repeat your question?
Q. What was the date on the letter?
A. I no longer know that. I think in Frankfurt I saw that it was 1 September 1939, that is, the photostatic copy which was shown to me in Frankfurt. That was the first of September 1939. May I add that I already stated in Frankfurt that I can no longer say with certainty whether that was the document. I had always thought that on the left lower corner there was a remark: "Reich Ministry of the Interior" or something like that. At any rate I can't remember that document exactly. I also believe on the document shown to me there was "Reichsleiter Bouhler and Brandt."
Q. We have the document. You don't need to explain the document. I merely asked you the date. Now you pay attention and answer the questions I am asking you. Now Doctor, in the course of your direct examination here did you have notes written out. Do you have notes there before you?
A. Here, no.
Q. You don't have any papers there with notes written thereon. You were reading from a paper this morning. Do you have notes written on the paper, any pencil notes or notes supplied to you by defense counsel? What do you have there before you?
A. Before me I have excerpts from the document books. Yes, I made some notes on the pages of those documents.
Q. Now, doctor, you noted on the photostatic copy of the Fuehrer letter the date 1 September 1939, do you recall the date that the Germans invaded Poland?
A. No, I don't know that.
Q. Wasn't that 1 September 1939?
A. Well that may be but I don't know that exactly. I wasn't active militarily with the exception of having been conscripted to the home guard a.t the end, but otherwise I wasn't in any military service. The war started on the 1st of September, 1939. I do know that.
Q. You have answered my question. Now do you recall in your interrogation of 21 September 1946 when asked the same question that I asked you here today as to what was your opinion as to why the euthanasia program was instituted and at that time you said that you thought it was a military measure for hospital purposes. Do you recall answering that in your interrogation in September?
A. No.
Q. Remember you are under oath here, doctor.
A. I don't remember details any more. I may say one thing. I was interrogated so rapidly at that time that I hardly had any possibility to think, and one more thing - it is possible that I said that hospital measures were taken into consideration for the purpose of the army. I still say today it is possible that wounded people were discussed but I can no longer remember exactly. I don't want to say anything which is untrue.
Q. Well now when did you receive your invitation from Bouhler to participate in the euthanasia program?
A. Well, I just mentioned that there was no talk of euthanasia when I was with Bouhler. At that time I had not yet seen the decree. During the Bouhler conference there was only talk about transfer into the county care institutions. As far as I know this was a measure to separate cases for care and cases for treatment.
Q. Well now when did you receive your invitation from Bouhler? What date in the summer of 1940?
A. I repeatedly stated that I can no longer remember the dates.
Q. You remember, witness -- You remembered it very well in Frankfurt.
A. I repeatedly said in Frankfurt that I cannot remember the dates which were mentioned. I don't know whether it was in the spring of 1940 or in the fall of 1939. I really can't remember that and I repeatedly said so.
Q. Well now, doctor, we fortunately have records of your previous interrogations. Now, doctor, during the course of your examination in Frankfurt you stated that when you went to the Fuehrer Chancellery in the summer of 1940 that Bouhler gave you as a reason for the execution of the euthanasia program that it was necessary to get more space for the purpose of the armed forces, and in addition to that you stated that it was also a program wherein you would get rid of inmates who were not fit for work. Now don't you recall telling that in an examination in Frankfurt?
A. In Frankfurt? I am sure I didn't say it there. I really don't remember it.
Q. You don't remember that you stated that one of the insane asylums, the name was Gabersee, spelled G-a-b-e-r-s-e-e-, was handed over to the euthanasia program?
A. I beg your pardon. Gabersee was the sister institution of mine, located in upper Bavaria. Gabersee was then vacated. I already said in Frankfurt I no longer know to which of these institutions but a number of patients were sent to my institute from Gabersee and I already stated in Frankfurt so far as I remember that patients had already been sent away a little while after they had come. I did not participate in the vacation of Gabersee. I said that in Frankfurt the vacation of the Gabersee institution was carried out without my assistance. On the contrary--
Q. I didn't ask you that, doctor. I asked you whether or not you stated that in connection with the euthanasia program at Gabersee
A. Yes.
Q. Kindly answer my questions, doctor, and wait until I complete my questions before you start answering. My questions will be brief and your answers like wise may be brief.
Now who took charge of the insane asylum Gabersee at that time?
A The Mental Institution at Gabersee was taken over by the DAF, the German Labor Front, so far as I know.
Q That is the German Labor Front, isn't it? The DAF?
A Yes.
Q Thank you.
A Yes. Without my presence, of course.
Q Now, when you entered the euthanasia program, did you take an oath?
A Well, I think that at any rate I was obliged to keep matters a secret. I think that that happened in Berlin at one time. At any rate, during the first conference it was said at the end that the entire conference fell within the designation, Secret Reich Hatters, Top Secret.
Q I ask you again, did you take an oath?
A No, I was told that I was to say nothing about these negotiations, and that under the circumstances, a death sentence would be carried out.
Q Who told you that?
A - - if that was violated.
Q Who told you that?
A I don't know exactly who told me that. At any rate I can not remember it. At any rate I was obliged to keep the secret in a sense.
Q At the time the individual told you that, did he also shake hands with you to indicate by his handshake that it was agreed that you were admitted?
A Yes.
Q And who was it?
A That was not a ceremony, there was no ceremony with that. If it were otherwise I would have remembered that instance, but really it was an obligation in the sense of secrecy, and in the sense of my task which was given to me in the Reich Ministry of the Interior, in my capacity as an expert.
Q Doctor, who else did that. Did someone else ask you to keep these matters a secret?
A I beg your pardon.
Q You had testified in a previous interrogation that the entire group of individuals took this oath who directed the work of euthanasia program, and that the oath was taken in the form of a handshake, and you said you must keep this a secret, and now I want to tell this Tribunal who that was, just what was said, and all the incidental conversations that accompanied it. You know just what I am referring to, I believe?
A I no longer know. When this Reich Committee was created, I was obliged to secrecy anyway, and I can no longer state that in exactitude who the agency was, that obliged me thus.
Q When were you interrogated? When were you interrogated by the prosecution in Frankfurt, the German prosecution?
A I have not got the date here. I think it was in January or February.
Q It is not five years ago?
A It can be in April.
Q It is not five years ago, Doctor. It is a matter of months?
A Yes, but at the time also in Frankfurt I stated that I no longer know who that was. I don't know whether it was Munich Ministry of the Interior, or whether it was in Berlin. I really don't know that exactly.
Q Who conducted the meeting in Munich of the Ministry of the Interior?
A The meeting at the Ministry of the Interior was headed by Ministerial Director Schulze.
Q That is right?
A That is right.
Q You don't recall telling any one within the past few months that it was Victor Brack who shook hands with you when he swore you to secrecy?
A I certainly was not sworn in in any way. There was no swearing, and I really would have remembered it had such a thing taken place. I was only obliged to keep the matter a top secret, but it is possible Victor Brack would have to know that himself. I no longer know that. I would not exclude the possibility.
Q Did you ever have such a meeting with Victor Brack wherein you shook hands with him at the time, considering the secrecy of the euthanasia program?
A Well, however, we are coming back to the same thing again. I no longer know of these things, and I can not state them exactly. These things are so many years back, gentlemen, that I can not no longer recall all these details; all these dates are mixed up in my mind, and I could only reconstruct them truly on the basis of the document.
Q Then I shall try to help you, doctor. I will not ask you to go back three or four or five years. I will ask you to recall your interrogation of the past few months. Do you recall telling just that to an interrogator, either to my staff, or the staff of the General Prosecutor in Frankfurt, that is not very difficult to remember, two or three months back?
A What do you want me to remember. I don't quite know what you want.
Q One of these interrogators had asked you if Victor Brack shook hands with you and told you the things must be kept a secret concerning the euthanasia program. Did you or did you not tell the interrogator that in Frankfurt, yes or no?
A I really don't know that any more. I did not receive any copy of my interrogation, therefore, I can not tell you that.
Q You have stated that they had a conference in Berlin in the summer of 1940, who attended that conference?
A Well, I don't know what conference you are talking about. Would that be the expert conference? Was it the expert conference?
Q How many conferences did you have in the summer of 1940?
A I no longer know that. Sometimes I took the questionnaires up there, and delivered them to some agency, and then briefly spoke to these people. I only had two conferences in Berlin, so far as I remember. One of these conferences was the first conference to which I was invited by Bouhler, and the second conference was the expert conference in Berlin, about which we have been speaking today, wherein we received all our principles.
Q Now let's take the first conference. You were invited to the first conference by Bouhler. Was that the first time you had heard about the institution of euthanasia program of the German Reich?
A That was the first time I was over in Berlin. I had never been to Berlin before that, and I had nothing to do with it before that.
Q Doctor, you will answer the questions briefly. Now you could have answered the last question, yes or no. Now, kindly try to do that, and we will proceed much more rapidly. Then this was the first time you ever heard of the euthanasia program when you were invited to a meeting or conference in Berlin in the Summer of 1940. That is the first conference you attended where Bouhler invited you. Now as Bouhler present?
A Yes. Yes, Bouhler was there.
Q And who else was there?
A So far as I can remember, Conti was present, Linden was present, Professor Heide was there, and Hetze. I think Dr. Brandt was there.
Q Yes.
A Brandt and Brack, and I think I can still remember these.
Q Now you say Dr. Brandt was there. Was that Dr. Karl Brandt?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was Professor Nietzsche there?
A So far as I can remember, Doctor Karl Brandt was there.
Q Was Professor Nietsche there?
A I don't believe so.
Q Was Warburg there?
A Warburg? I don't know him.
Q Was Hevelmann there? Do you know that man?
A Heffermann?
Q Hevelmann, yes?
A I can not remember Hevelmann. I can not remember he was present during the conference.
Q Was Blankenburg there?
A Blankenburg? Yes. I made his acquaintance later, but I can not remember whether he was there.
Q Was Dr. Schuhmann there?
A No.
Q Was Dr. Falkhauser there?
A No.
Q Was Professor Brack there?
A I beg your pardon.
Q Was Professor Brack there?
A Brunck?
Q Victor Brack?
A Victor Brack, yes, I believe he was there?
Q You say at that meeting a letter from the Fuehrer charged Dr. Karl Brandt and Reichsleiter Bouhler with the authority to give permission to other men to conduct the euthanasia program was exhibited to you for the first time?
A No, I never said that. No letter was shown to me during that conference. This so-called decree of which I saw a photostatic copy was shown to me by Bouhler much, much later when he was at this very institution.
He did that upon my request. I wanted to know whether there was to be a transfer of patients, which had something to do with this question.
Q That is correct, that this outline of the letter of the Fuehrer was not exhibited, is that correct?
A No. I did not know anything about the euthanasia program.
Q What was the purpose of the meeting?
A The transfer of patients who were to be treated and to be separated to other institutions, and, persons who were to be taken care of, to be sent to other institutions, the separation of these two cases of patients.
Q All right.
A That is how I understood it.
Q Then when was the first time that the inmates were to be exterminated?
A I never heard anything about extermination. Pardon no if I say so, but I didn't know the expression "exterminated". I no longer know exactly when the thought arose that this was to be an euthanasia measure. I think it must have a happened when I visited Berlin or perhaps when I was in Munich. I no longer know that. I repeatedly said so. I can't toll you that now. At any rate, at the beginning of the action I was fully conscious that those people were to be sent to welfare institutions, probably for the purpose of euthanasia, but when exactly euthanasia was to start I did not know.
Q May I ask you one question, Doctor, along these lines? Was there over any one, to your knowledge, killed under the euthanasia program. That is, accorded a mercy death, or helped along so that they could die without any further suffering. To your knowledge, do you know that?
A No, I hoard about that for the first time in Frankfurt One of the interrogators told me in Frankfurt that the action had continued after it was supposed to be stopped. I didn't know anything about that.
Q Then you know about the commencement of that action? When did this begin so far as you knew?
A Well, I don't know that either. I don't know when the action started. I never said that I did know it. I don't know it. I was never asked to participate in any discussions regarding that.
Q How many children did you accord a mercy death in your asylum?
A I can't tell you that either exactly because I no longer know the number
Q You applied....
A (Interrupting) No, on the basis of the authorization I had those children fall asleep.
Q What do you call that?
A The children received luminal. In the case of those children a very little dose was sufficient in order to relieve the suffering of these pitiful little beings.
Q How many children did you do that too? Two, three, two hundred, five hundred, one thousand, or eighty thousand?
A For God's sake! I really don't know how many there were. I don't know whether there were a hundred cases or over a hundred cases. The cases who were purely put into a slumber must number around one hundred twenty. However, I can't toll you that with certainty. I am under oath here, you know.
Q I realize that, Doctor. Do you know when the last child was accorded a mercy death in your institution?
A No, I don't know that exactly but Dr. Rodell - I think, Dr. Rondell - said that in Frankfurt that shortly before the Americans arrived children wore still treated with euthanasia. He mentioned one child - but I am not quite sure. At that time I was very excited as a result of these questions.
Q Well, how long did you carry out euthanasia of children in your institution? From 1940 to what date?
A In 1939 I had no euthanasia, I am quite sure that is wrong. I am quite certain it is wrong. I already mentioned a document today.....
Q (Interrupting) I didn't mention the date of 1939 to my knowledge. I said 1940. Maybe we got an incorrect translation. 1940 I said.
A I think you said 1939.
Q Well now, toll me, from 1940 on you were ....
A (Interrupting) Do you want to know when it started?
Q I want to know when it started, yes.
A Well, I really can't tell you that exactly. I said the same thing in Frankfurt. You can't expect from me that I remember all these single dates after so many years have passed. With the best of my will I can not tell you that. This is the question again and again.
Q When did it stop?
A What stopped? What do you moan?
Q The killing of these children.
A The killing of these children? The killing of these children was never stopped.
Q The according of a mercy death to these children.
A The authorization was never stopped, not until the very end. I never received any such stopping. The action regarding the grownups was stopped, and after that, grown up people were no longer subjected to euthanasia in my institution and were no longer transferred. There must be some mix up here.
Q How many grownups were accorded a mercy death in your institution?
A Well, these are the very same questions which have been put here before. Also in Frankfurt. I can no longer Q (Interrupting) Just a moment, Doctor.
Just a moment. I will ask the questions and you answer them. If you do not choose to answer the question will you kindly say "I refuse to answer the question." Either answer the question or don't answer the question. I don't want to hear any more quibbling from you.
Now, let's continue. How many grownups - that is, adults - did you accord a mercy death in your institution
A The mercy death, in my institution - I didn't grant that to any adult. I just transferred the patients.
Q Well now, this first conference in Berlin - the first one, the one that Bouhler invited you to - that concerned the transfer of inmates from one institution to another? Was that its purpose?
A The purpose of that conference was the transfer of patients, who could no longer be treated, into care institutions. These were county care institutions, and that was tho expression I heard there for tho first time.
Q Then what happened immediately after that conference? Did you then go back to your institution and start to transfer the inmates affected, or then did you wait a while and have another meeting in Berlin, or did you have to attend another conference before the program got underway, or just what did happen?
A I returned to Munich.
Q You returned to Munich. Now did you then immediately start to transfer inmates?
A No, I transferred the patients as soon as the first transport was demanded from me. That is quite impossible what you are saying.
Q When was the first transport... I'm not saying anything. I'm questioning you. Now, let's not have this hostile attitude.
A I beg your pardon. It hurts mo because these are matters which I do not understand. It excites mo.
A Well, all right now, after your meeting in tho summer of 1940, you returned to your institution. Now, when did you receive tho first order to send patients away from your institution?
AAs far as I remember, I received that order during the same year, and I think that was probably in the late fall of 1940.
Q Now, in the same summer, that is, the summer of 1940, did you attend another meeting or conference in Berlin.
A Yes, the export conference. I already said that.
Q Now, will you toll me about the export conference? Was Brack there?
A I believe he was there, yes.
Q Was Bouhler there?
A I don't know that any more. It may be that he looked in, but I really don't know that exactly.
Q Well, just about two hours ago, on direct examination you stated that at this conference of exports in Berlin, Brack was there but Bouhler was not. Is that what you said then?
A I said that I believed that Bouhler was not there, but I can't remember these personalities now. I don't believe Bouhler was there. However, I can't exclude the possibility, if you are speaking of possibilities, I can hardly say "no".
Q Was Brack introduced to the members of this conference?
A I don't know. I can't toll you that. I don't know that.
Q Who presided over the conference?
AAs far as I remember, the conference was presided over by Mr. Brack. As far as I remember, Professor Nietzsche spoke from the physicians. I also spoke. All the other physicians spoke. This was a general discussion.
Q This is a good breaking point, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: At this point the Tribunal will be in recess until 9:30 o'clock Monday morning.
(A recess was taken until 0930 hours, 12 May 1948)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany on 12 May 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.
Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you ascertain if the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all the defendants are present in court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.
Counsel may proceed.
HERMANN PFANNMUELLER - Resumed
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HARDY:
Q Dr. Pfannmueller, at the close of the session on Friday we were discussing the organization of the euthanasia program and I an interested in having you explain to the Tribunal in more detail the activities and events of the various conferences in the summer of 1940. I want to go back now, for the moment, to the first conference wherein you were invited by Bouhler to attend the conference, that is the first conference in the summer of 1940. Do you understand me?
A Yes.
Q Now, this first conference, after you arrived and the assembly was called to order, who was the presiding officer at the conference?
A Reichsleiter Bouhler.
Q Now, what was the subject of the conference?
A The discussion was about dealing with incurably insane persons in institutions and their transferring to care institutions. I never had any, other idea of tho purpose of this meeting.
Q Now, after tho incurably ill patients were transferred to care institutions was it decided at this conference what would be the final disposition of those particular patients?
AAt this meeting nothing was said about that. The word euthanasia was not mentioned at all. It was never mentioned.
Q I see. Now, did Bouhler refer to any state order that this transfer must take place?
A No.
Q Then the discussion merely included the transfer of incurables from various institutions, such as your own, to those so-called care institutions, is that correct?
A Yes, in my opinion. That is tho impression I had.
Q I see. You have attempted, for tho benefit of the Tribunal, to recollect those in attendance at that meeting. I am fully aware of the fact that this meeting took place 7 years ago and it is with considerable difficulty that you are attempting to recollect those present. Could you toll us how many were there, that is, were there 20 people there, or thirty people, or fifty people? Do you recall that, doctor?
A I believe there were not over twenty, rather, less. I can't say exactly.
Q Did anyone else other than Bouhler participate and have anything to say at tho meeting?
A Yes.
Q Who was that, do you remember?
A Yes, I believe I can remember that there was Brack. I believe I can remember Professor Heyde, I can't remember with absolute certainty but I believe he was there. I believe I can remember Professor Heinze, I think, but I don't know for sure, that Linden was there from the Reichs Ministry of the Interior.