A. No, no details.
JUDGE SEBRING: Thank you very much.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I have another question or two, if the Court permits me, to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: I desire to ask a few questions, then you may. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. When was it, Witness, that it began to occur to you that Germany had lost or would lose the War?
A. That the War was lost seemed to me very probable from the moment it began.
Q. When did you become convinced that the war was lost?
A. That is hard to say. I should like to say it was after the 20th of July.
Q. Are you familiar with German criminal processes before the War?
A. No.
Q. Have you any idea, if a German national was convicted of murder or some crime which carried the death sentence, how long it would be after the sentence was imposed before the man would be executed?
A. I must rectify my answer that I gave before. I was a Jurist, and I studied law and I went through all tho positions before I left the service, but I know nothing about the period between the sentence and execution, at least I don't recall knowing it.
Q. Did you serve in the German Army?
A. At the time I served as a Silesian, I was in the Free Corps, in 1919, against the Poles, and this was taken over by the Reichswehr. The Free Corps unit there wanted to take part in the Kapp-Putsch, and since I didn't approve of this I left, I left.
Q. In a German Army occupying foreign territory, and if certain of those foreign nationals were charged and convicted of the crime of sabotage against the German Army, and condemned to death by military or other German Court, in that foreign country, have you any idea how long it would be before that sentence would be executed?
A. Do you mean in the National Socialist Army?
Q. I don't understand you, Witness
A. Do you mean the National Socialist Army in the second World War?
Q. Yes.
A. I know nothing about that in general. I only know that it was very quickly carried out.
Q. Do you have any idea, that foreign nationals who were so convicted would be sent back to Germany to be executed?
A. I know of shootings, even without a sentence, and I don't know what was done if such quick justice was not carried out.
Q. Do you think it probable that such foreign nationals, tried and convicted before a German Military or Occupational Court in a foreign country, and sentenced to death, would then be sent back to Germany, persons under that sentence of death so imposed.
A. I don't know of any such case.
THE PRESIDENT: Has counsel for the Prosecution any inquiry?
MR. HARDY: I just have one or two questions, your Honor.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Regarding these letters written by Sievers that you say you admired the way in which sievers wrote because of his position; did you see those letters prior to your appearance here in Nurnberg?
A. No, I did not see the letters before they appeared here. What I give credit for is the authentic national socialist tone.
Q. Did you ever see any letters wherein Sievers wrote to members of the Party, or concerning Party activities, such as these letters which are in evidence before this Tribunal; did you ever see any of these letters prior to your appearance here in Nurnberg, of any description?
A. Unless they were sent to members of my own organization and were camouflaged letters, no.
Q. Did Sievers ever tell you about the way ho conducted himself concerning some of these various criminal activities of the Nazis?
A. You mean in connection with the experiments, or what do you mean?
Q. Yes, in connection with the experiments?
A. Sievers told me, that was at the beginning when we had this fundamental discussion which lasted some time, he said he would try to carry out sabotage wherever he could as General Secretary, and as always, I left him a completely free hand to carry this out, as I did with all my people.
Q. Now then, when this process started, that is, I will go further back, when tho International Military Tribunal served the indictment on Goering, et al, did you at that time volunteer the information you possessed to any investigating authority concerned with these trials here in Nurnberg?
A. Since 1945, since Professor Heiler made me acquainted with the American Military Government in Harburg, I described to this M G, as well as the English Military Government in Goettingen and Hamburg our resistance group. Is that what you mean?
Q. I mean, did you ever tell any Military Government directly concerned with Military Tribunals, for instance, did you over write to Mr Hardy, carw of I.M.T., and tell him you had information concerning medical experiments. During tho past two years, since the end of the war did you write to anyone and inform them that you could enlighten them as to some of the activities regarding the medical experiments?
A. I did not write to Mr. Hardy.
Q. Did you write to anyone?
A. I went to severed agencies, and I was always given the name of a different office, and they always said they were not competent. Since 1945 I have been offering my help, and have been saying I could give information about Sievers, and all his actions. I was never able to give this testimony, because as I have said everyone sent me on to someone else, and everyone said he was not competent. This continued until I finally found Mr. Weisgerber, and this trial, was finally opened to our joy.
MR. HARDY: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions of the witness of any defense counsel?
DR. NELTE: Dr. Nelte, counsel for Handloser.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, how long will you examination of the witness take.
DR. NELTE: Perhaps 20 minutes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(Thereupon Court adjourned until 9:30 a.m. April 16, 1947) Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the-matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 16 April 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I. Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this hon orable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all defendants are present in court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.
Counsel may proceed with examination of the witness.
FRIEDRICH HIELSCHER - Resumed RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is reminded that he is still under oath.
BY DR. NELTE (Counsel for the defendant Handloser):
Q. Yesterday, witness, the Tribunal asked you a few questions, that witnesses and defendants have declared on the witness stand under oath that the terrible things which happened behind the barbed wire had been unknown to them. You will understand that people who have not lived in our environment, as they look back after all the atrocities have been revealed, cannot understand how this could be possible. Yesterday, if my notes are correct, you said, "The existence of concentration camps was known in Germany but nobody knew what happened there," is that right?
A. I didn't say nobody. I meant nobody who was not politically active against the Nazis.
Q. We shall see. The question is: Did the general public, the German people as a whole, or did only a few people know, or did certain groups know about these things? Now he asked you yesterday spoke of the Fuehrer Order No. 1. Then you know about it.
Would you agree with me if I were to say that this Fuehrer Order No. 1 was the typical expression of Hitler's principle, divide et impera, divisions of the various spheres of work and strictest secrecy? Would you agree with me?
A. Yes, I would. I believe, in addition, the actual significance of the Fuehrer's order becomes understandable only if one considers the pressure under which the whole nation was living; that is, the knowledge that if I say anything carelessly I'll disappear and I don't know what will happen to me.
Q. You say that was the prerequisite for the effect and it was the consequence of this order, and it was the intention, because in the last analysis the whole nation was not behind the system to achieve by division what could be achieved with a minority. Were the concentration camps under the SS as early as 1933?
A. I know that concentration camps were guarded by SA and that there was a struggle about the control of concentration camps among the higher party agencies. The example that I gave yesterday where people were thrown into water at 80 degrees Centigrade and then their skin was taken off, that was done by the SA.
ing Q. This Hitler order sett/up the basic principle of secrecy was now expanded and completed in the SS. Are you aware that aside from this Hitler order there was a general order from Himmler for the SS which provided severe penalties, even death, for violation of the obligation to secrecy?
A. I don't recall the text but I know the general effect.
Q. You know that an order existed?
A. Yes, I know that there were some such orders.
Q. Now, what if someone wanted to visit a concentration camp? Could he go to a camp and ask to be let in?
A I don't think that any one in Germany would have come upon the idea of simply going to a concentration camp and asking to be let in.
Q Was it possible to visit a camp and what requirements had to be fulfilled?
A One had to have connection with the SS and under some pretext try to find a legimate excuse for wanting to get in. One had to find an excuse that agreed with the SS vocabulary. I have to look at this from the point of view of my own work.
Q Yes, but, of course, I have to ask you, in judging these things, to distinguish between your specific case and the case of the person who did not have these special connections which you had.
AA normal German would not dare to think to get into a concentration camp.
Q Could the members of the camp administration and the guards talk about the things which they observed to third persons?
A No, of course not.
Q Could the inmates tell their relatives or any one else in letters about what they observed?
A No, of course not.
Q If some one was fortunate enough to be released could he freely describe what he had seen and experienced?
A Except for personal conversations with his best friend or with his wife, such people were very reticent.
Q Was that because of a systematic order, a waiver which they had to sign or some such thing?
A It was because of the tortures which this man had experienced himself, or had seen, and the knowledge which he had received in the concentration camp of the malevolence of the SS system, and on the probability which bordered on certainty that if he said any thing to any one and was not 100% certain that that person would be silient he would be sent back to the camp and would be killed immediately.
Q Well, let us sum up this system. Primarily, the basic Hitler order of secrecy, the specific orders from Himmler for the SS, the concrete orders for the camps and events in the camps, and the conclusion is it correct that all these orders were carried out with the greatest severity?
A Yes.
Q That this systematic secrecy, in effect, had to lead to the general public that is everyone who did not have something to in some official connection or some other connection such as yours, learning nothing about what happened in concentration camps?
A I can only repeat what I said yesterday. The general public knew that the camps existed. There was a general impression that something very unpleasant happened in the camps. What actually did happen in the camps was not known to the public up to the end of the war.
Q You said that there was a general horror of concentration camps - this feeling that something was happening there. For example, medical experiments on prisoners?
A No, this did not refer to any details at all. It had the following significance. Everyone knew people disappeared from time to time and were no longer seen. A large number of these people did not return at all. Those who did return were extremely reticent, even to their own brother, cousin or parents. That was all. And this uneasy feeling that there is something going on, something that one wouldn't like to get involved in - that was the intended effect of the existence of the camps.
Q Did any one of the public get the idea that experiments on human beings might be carried out?
A I can only repeat that no one had any idea of any details or had any clear impression of what was going on. Otherwise, our underground work would have been much easier if we had been able to use such general knowledge.
Q I can, of course, imagine that if some one knew some one has been sent to a concentration camp he could imagine that it was rather unpleasant there, as if some one is sent to prison or to a penitentiary, but what I wan to know is this. Could the idea of horror mean anything so specific to the individual as the experiments which were carried out there?
A I can only repeat that the general impression was a stricter form of penitenitary. Nothing specific, just a general unpleasant impression.
Q But in a penitenitary one doesn't generally imagine that experiments are conducted on the inmates, then this feeling could never arise that human experiments were being carried out in the camp? Is that so?
A I know nothing of any such specific impression among the general public.
Q In this system as you have discussed it I should like to ask - did it make any difference among the German population in general, whether some one was in a high position, whether he learned anything specific, anything positive about what went on in concentration camps, or can one say that that was generally impossible and did not depend upon the position of the official?
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, this ground has been covered rather extensively, both by the defense counsel, the prosecution and the Tribunal. I object to any further questioning of this kind.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection overruled. Counsel may proceed for a few minutes.
BY DR. NELTE:
Q Did you understand me? The Tribunal asked whether any certain groups, because of their position, would necessarily have to know about.
......
A I can answer the question only generally for the higher or middle officials in the various ministries that was the subject of our conversations - what can be done with these government officials; and the impression of all my friends in all the groups, Right or Left, without any distinction, was that this class of government officials, not only since 1933, not only since 1919, not only since Bismarck, were disgustingly unpolitical and had no education outside of their specialized field. They worked in their own field and had no idea about anything else and didn't worry about anything else. That was the whole psychological prerequisite for holding National Socialism power. Nothing could be done with these people that didn't know anything.
Q Now, if a general, for example, says here on the witness stand in answer to the question "Did you know what happened in the concentration cemps?" If he says, under oath "No", would you believe that?
A That is a very difficult question because we all laughed at the stupidity of the generals. It is quite possible that just because he was a general he knew nothing, unless he was related to some one who was connected with the 20th of July.
Q When you say "unless there were specific connections with the events and with these camps......"
A No, no, I meant to say that the generals, who formed a quite distinct class in society, and a large number of people executed after the 20th of July, were executed because this class insofar as they weren't anti-Nazi, didn't always maintain secrecy. I don't knew who you are talking about here, but if a general, says he knew nothing and he was related to some one connected with the 20th of July, then I don't believe it likely.
Q Then, if I make my question more specific: Professor Handloser said that he knew nothing of the events in these concentration camps?
A Unfortunately, I don't know Professor Handlsoer's family and social connections.
Q Well, assume that he had no relatives connected with the 20th of July, or with concentration camps, but that he had an enormous work as Army physician, as Army medical inspector and as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, and that he had no contact with the SS? Do you believe that this statement is correct. I assume that you knew his name and had some idea of what judgment you have to make of him.
A That's not possible. I can only say that if what you say is true it is not impossible that he would not know anything. I don't consider it impossible.
Q This problem is very important and it cannot be discussed in to much detail. I believe it is one of the problems which is decisive for restoring Germany to a role in international life. As long as other countries believe that the general public knew about and approved such things, we shall not have peace and that is why it is so important to me to hear your opinion on this matter and to give the Tribunal a picture that the people in general had no knowledge.
I thank you.
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q Doctor, the Tribunal has listened with a great deal of interest to the statements you have just made, and as Doctor Nelte has indicated, under the system of government which citizens of the United States have known for one hundred and sixty years, it is difficult to understand the reign of terror under the guise of duly constituted and organized government which you have delineated in your testimony. Now do you mean to say it can be possible that such a system of practice as you have delineated as having occurred in the concentration camps, could exist over a period of 8 to 10 years without such practices becoming generally known to middle and high level officials of the so-called government, the Wehrmacht, and the SS?
A I must say the following. In the case of the middle and higher government officials, it would not have been possible if we had not, for a very very long time here in Germany, especially in the East Elbe area, had had a class grow up, trained to devote themselves exclusively to their own department which they had studied with above-average thoroughness and which they took care of with the necessary thoroughness and, in addition, had the obligation to worry about nothing else. That was a habit of the middle and higher class which had lasted for centuries. For example, in the higher military offices we political people always talked about a dementia militaris maxima. It was not possible to talk to these people about anything that was outside of their own field because they did not understand it. That has increased since the beginning of the 19th century. For the middle and higher government officials, Your Honor, I must answer your question with "No" in general. In general they did not know about such things. In our many attempts to approach people there, unless they were actually relatives or friends of ours, we could do nothing. The thing was different if they were high party, Wehrmacht or SS authorities; that is, the people immediately around Hitler, Himmler, Frick, Rosenberg, and so on. Then, of course, things were different. They were, of course, definitely informed.
Q Well, let's drop down in the party level from Hitler, Himmler, Rosenberg, Heydrich, Funk, and the rest of these men. Let's drop down on lower levels of men who were Party members or still had contacts with Party members officially. For example, let's consider the strata of Party officialdom represented by these defendants in the box. What is your view?
A I would be grateful if the rank of these men could be described to me because I have not followed this trial, with the exception of Sievers. It is difficult for me to give a general judgment because I do not know on what level these gentlemen were.
Q If that be true, then the Tribunal will not press the question, because it would be apparent that such an answer would be simply an opinion of the witness, is that correct?
A Yes.
JUDGE SEBRING: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q Witness, with your personal acquaintance of the resistance movement, do you believe that a person who was an active follower of Stresemann and Bruening since June 1933, and was persecuted by the Gestapo, as of the 2nd of May 1935 would have been accepted into the NSDAP?
A Only on condition that such a man had changed suddenly in 1933. That happened, of course. There were surprising people who changed their allegiance immediately.
Q Witness, if 3 months before, this man had openly protested against the Party propaganda play at the theater and had been beaten up and injured, do you believe it was likely that shortly after that he would be accepted by the Party?
AAt the same place?
Q Yes.
A No, that is very unlikely.
Q Do you believe that 10 months later this man would be admitted to a State examination and receive a State position?
AAgain, unless there had been a definite change in the meantime-which happened in Germany very often--it is very unlikely.
Q Do you believe that this man would be kept under arrest only 1 month if, a year later, after this incident, as a government official he sent 8,500 pamphlets to high government officials?
A That he would be under arrest only one month? No, I don't believe so.
Q Do you believe that the consequence would have been merely that he lost his position and that he could have studied medicine until the beginning of the war?
A This was discovered?
Q Yes, he says it was discovered and he lost his position and studied medicine. That was in 1941. Do you consider that probable?
A No, I consider it very unlikely. The man would very probably have been sent to a concentration camp.
Q Do you believe that one could send 230,000 subversive pamphlets through the mail without being discovered?
A I never heard of that happening.
Q Aside from the 230,000 pamphlets, do you believe that this man would be held for 6 weeks in a concentration camp after being arrested the second time if he had been dismissed from the Party, as he says, 2 years before?
A That is even more unlikely.
Q Do you believe that it was possible for the man, in 1941, to receive 2 letters of recommendation from the Gestapo, to become a member of the Waffen-SS?
A That pre-supposes a political change of allegiance.
Q This man says that he did so in order to get into the Party and to investigate conditions in the extermination camps, to reveal to the world what he discovered. Did you hear anything about this--about such a man in an important position working at Auschwitz, who wanted to in form the world?
A No, I know nothing about it. Of course, that doesn't prove anything. There were so many people who did not know each other. That doesn't prove anything.
Q. Witness, this man has recorded his activities in a document, it is 1553-PS, submitted by the Prosecution, Exhibit 428. I have here an English copy. On page 4 of this document conditions were described as I have just repeated. This witness is Dr. Kurt Gerstein. Do you know the name?
A No, I never heard it.
Q A graduate engineer for mine surveying (Bergasessor Diplomingenieur) who studied medicine?
A No, but that doesn't prove anything in itself.
Q Witness, when did you first hear of the execution of the euthanasia program?
A I cannot give the year. I know in general that the Party wanted it and I knew that these intentions were carried out, not as a private citizen, of course, but that was information which I received and we discussed it frequently.
Q In July or August 1938, did you know anything about the extermination of insane, feeble-minded and sick people in the mental institutions? Or was it later?
A I am sorry, I cannot give any dates, but I can say that at the time when it happened we knew about it. One of the men, I don't know how it was, said - "The news is the following --"
Q Well, witness, tell me, was it before or after the beginning of the war?
A I am sorry, I cannot tell you. All my diaries were burned, It was noted down there in some form.
Q Witness, this Dr. Gerstein gave a long report to the occupation troops when they entered Germany. Even his family has not been able to find it since. Don't you believe that the occupation troops failed to believe his statements?
A I can only say that what you have told me so far about the man makes it unlikely that he was in the resistance. But I do not know enough about the methods of the occupation authorities.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions.
DR. VORWERK: Vorwerk for defendant Dr. Romberg.
Q. Mr. Hielscher, did you think about the problem of experiments on human beings for a long tim or were your answers in this field yesterday really a result of a question for the moment?
A. What problem did you say?
Q. Human experiments?
A. I have dealt with this problem for some time, long before the Nazis.
Q. Mr. Hielscher, do you consider experiments on human beings criminal under all conditions?
A. Under my ethical convictions they are criminal under all conditions.
DR. VORWERK: Thank you. No further questions.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Dr. Froeschmann for Vikter Brack.
Q. Witness, yesterday you said that shortly after 1933 you got one or two of your acquaintances out of concentration camps, is that right?
A. One.
Q. Did you also have an opportunity in later years, let us say 1938 - 1939, to try to have concentration camp inmates released?
A. From that time on I was not able to achieve any direct release personally. Some of my men were able to help in this respect. I have already said that Sievers did so.
Q. Did you know that there was a way to have inmates released from concentration camps through an office in Berlin?
A. Generally I know nother about this.
Q. Did you know the Chancellory of the Fuehrer?
A. Yes, I did. That way extisted, yes.
Q. Did you know...
A. And then there was also a second way, through Emmy Goering, yes.
Q. Did you know the work of the Chancellory or the Fuehrer in this field?
A. No, we kept away from this method, because it was very unreliable and dangerous. I can say nothing from my own experience.
Q. Then you didn't know Reichsleiter Bouhler personally?
A. Yes, but not in this connection.
Q. Witness, did you see prisoners personally who were not in concentration camps one or two years, but many years, and then got out.
A. Yes.
Q. Yesterday you said that these preisoners made a very disturned impression, and that it was very difficult to get anything out of them, is that right?
A. They were extremely reticent, extremely secretive. They bore the impression of great fear, but there were people who managed to adjust themselves to it.
Q. Could one use the expression "mental wrecks" for these people?
A. I would say a large proportion of them were. There were people who managed to adjust themselves to it, and those were the best ones.
Q. One could say that in part the psychiatric condition of concentration camp inmates after years of imprisonment was very disturbed, very reduced -- how would you express it?
A. In general Himmler succeeded in breaking these people to a large extent. It was a devilish system.
Q. Is it true that a large part of these people, as a witness recently testified in a different trial, were through with their whole life?
A. It is difficult for me to answer since I am dependent on the reports of the prisoners with whom I worked later, and they are people who are not broken. If I can rely on their reports, and I am quite sure I can, I can say that a large proportion, as I have already said, were broken in their ambition, and so forth.
Q. Do you consider it possible, witness, that these prisoners themselves lost any respect for the lives of others?
A. That is extremely difficult to answer. I know two very different reactions which we often discussed. One is that such a person comes out and says from now on I shall never hurt a fly. Now I know what horrible things a human being is capable of. I know how a human being lives. I will never hurt anyone else. That is one reaction. The other reaction is, now I don't care about anything, nothing is important anymore, and I will do the same as they do. Those are the two typical reactions which follow from human nature.
Q. Witness, you had some knowledge about the treatment of the prisoners by the guards in the concentration camps?
A. Not personally, of course, aside from the time when I was in prison, but from reports from men in my own group and other groups.
Q. Do you know from what part of humanity, to speak carefully, these guards were drawn?
A. The guards in the concentration camps? You mean the SS?
Q. I am talking about the guards. I want to avoid the expression SS. They were dressed in SS uniforms, but I just want to talk about the guards in the concentration camps.
A. There were two heterogenic elements, so to speak. One was what we called the typical SS man, and the best thing to do today if we met them on the street is to shoot them down. Shooting is too good for them. The second group are the ones who are brought in unsuspectingly. That happened often, that in the cast in the foreign German settlements the people were called to a meeting and were told we were to carry out a census or something, and they had to sign a list. On the next day they were called in and they said they were called in for the SS. They were put into formations and suddenly discovered they were guards. For example, I was guarded in the Lehrter prison by seven Saxons, three from Silesia. Aside from the other kind that is who were very very decent and regretted they hand been forced into this position, and I as a prisoner had an opportunity to talk to them about supervision, and we used to talk about who was the worst off.
I had to console them. These people did exist. But aside from then the guards were rather an unpleasant bunch of people.
Q. Did you learn anything about the way in which the guards treated the prisoners in the concentration camps; do you know anything about mistreatment, or anything similar?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. And into what year did your experience extend?
A. My experience began in 1933. My reliable reports began in 1933.
Q. And do you believe that this condition of the guards was supported from above?
A. Yes, I do. They wont up to the Commandant office, and went up to Himmler and Hitler, too, of course.
Q. Then for a man who was against this system in the concentration camps, did it involve danger to his own life to effect the release of prisoners from these camps?
A. May I ask you to repeat the question.
Q. Was it for a man ,......
A. For a man in this hyrachy, you mean?
Q. No, a man outside the Hyrachy, a man who wanted to help the poor prisoners to be released from the concentration camp; did it mean danger to his own life to do so?
A. Unless the man was extremely well covered he was under extreme danger.
DR. FORESCHMANN: Thank you. No further questions.
DR. WEISGERBER: Dr. Weisgerber--
THE PRESIDENT: Before you proceed counsel I have a few questions.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, have you any idea as to the approximate number of Germans in societies, exclusive of the Jews, who were sent to the concentration camp prior to September 1, 1939?
A. I cannot given any exact figure, but it is certain that it was in the 10 thousands, -- 10 thousand, 20 thousand, 30 thousand, 40 thousand, something like that.