A That Romberg and the experimental subjects had reached an agreement beforehand, and must have done so, that I learned subsequently from a conversation that Romberg had with the experimental subject after the experiment.
Q Do you remember the contents of that conversation?
A I at any rate had the impression that they had reached a satisfactory agreement regarding the course that the experiment was to take.
Q Now who said that, the subject or Romberg?
A The man more or less thanked Romberg for this.
Q Now to another matter. You stated that Rascher had said things to you in connection with these experiments; he had cursed and said that the experimental subjects were unimportant and that it did not make any difference whether they were done harm or not. Did he make this statement after the experiments or did he express it in a loud cursing, so that everyone could hear it?
A When the experiments had been concluded and the chamber was no longer in Dachau, I asked Rascher how everything had gone off in the experiments, and whether nothing had happened to the experimental subjects. To my surprise, since this contradicted what I had observed at the experiments myself, he said that a couple of persons had died. Then I asked him "How come?" He said Himmler had asked him to carry out a few extreme experiments and I then asked him whether Romberg had been present. Rascher said no, he had done them alone, and on this occasion he made that statement about Romberg -- that Romberg was in his way because he was too weak. That Himmler had demanded his extreme experiments can be seen from the documents here which, however, did not go to me or to the Ahnenerbe at that time but only to Gluecks and the SD -namely a document in which Himmler commanded Rascher to carry out further experiments with criminals condemned to death.
Q I asked you whether Rascher made this statement at the time you witnessed the experiment -- whether he made any remarks regarding the treatment of the experimental subjects at the time when you were there.
A No, he did not.
DR. VORWERK: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any other questions of the witness on the part of defense counsel? Any further cross-examinations by the Prosecution? Examination of the witness having been closed, the witness will be excused from the witness stand and may resume his place.
(Defendant Sievers leaves the witness stand.)
DR. WEISGERBER: Mr. President, it is now my intention to call the witness, Dr. Eduard May. I shall appreciate the Tribunal giving me permission to call him to the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The marshal will summon the witness Eduard May.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, may I inquire as to whether or not the defense counsel has all four witnesses available to be heard here in the next day or two, and then is it his idea to submit the rest of his documentary evidence after the witnesses have been heard?
DR. WEISGERBER: Mr. President, all witnesses are present and I intend to hear them, one after the other, but before we hear Hielscher I should like very briefly to put in a few documents.
MR. HARDY: Thank you.
(EDUARD MAY, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:)
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
You will hold up your right hand and be sworn. Repeat this oath after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SEBRING: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. WEISGERBER:
Q Witness, your name is EDUARD MAY?
A Yes.
Q You were born on 14 June 1905 in Mainz?
A. Yes.
Q And you live in Niederbroecking near Starnberg?
A Yes.
Q You have the title of Doctor. Which one?
A Doctor of Natural Philosophy.
Q Were you ever a member of the Nazi Party, the SS or the SA?
A No, I belonged neither to the Nazi party nor to any of its organizations or affiliations.
Q In the Defendant Sievers' diary, an SS Oberscharfuehrer, Dr. Mai, appears. Are you identical with that man?
A No, I am not. My name is spelled with a "y" - M-A-Y, and I remember having heard or read the name of this SS man and he spells his name with an "i" - M-A-I.
Q Doctor, as a private scholar you have specialized in the field of entomology?
A Yes.
Q Since when?
A Since 1928.
Q And with what did you concern your research?
A My special field was applied entomology. This is research into combatting insect pests in agriculture, in forestry, in orchards, etc. So far as insects are concerned which do damage to human beings by carrying diseases, you speak of medicinal entomology; that is, in other words, a branch of applied entomology. All applied entomology aims at finding means and methods to destroy insect pests, and to find means of preventing their mass multiplication.
Q Doctor, have you taught?
A Yes, in 1941 I was a lecturer in the University of Munich.
Q Who was the rector of the university at that time?
A The rector was the ordinary professor of Indogermanic languages, Dr. Walter Wuest.
Q And do you know whether Dr. Wuest had any other function at that time?
A. Yes, I knew that Professor Wuest was at the same time, and this had nothing to do with the university, curator of the Ahnenerbe Office. Shortly thereafter he became chief of the Ahnenerbe Office.
Q Is it correct that Professor Wuest, in the spring of 1942, asked you to carry out a research assignment for the Ahnenerbe?
A Yes, in 1942 Dr. Wuest called upon me and told me that Himmler had an applied entomology research assignment to be carried out, and he ordered in this connection to set up a laboratory or institute where the research for this assignment could be carried out. This concerned the question of combatting insects that do damage to human beings and this research was to be carried out within the framework of the Ahnenerbe. I pointed out to Professor Wuest that because of assignments from industry I was very overworked and that, moreover, it was not my intention to sacrifice my free professional position for the same of some official position. Professor Wuest thought that this was of no importance and that I could take over this research assignment and my free professional position would not thereby be in any way endangered; I would have some sort of loose contract with the Ahnenerbe and that I should discuss this matter with the Reichs business manager of the Ahnenerbe, namely Mr. Sievers. That was the first time I heard his name. That was the contents of our discussion, and Wuest said that Sievers would get in touch with me.
Q Did you then have a talk with Sievers?
A Yes. In the next few days Sievers called me up. I then made his acquaintance and we met and had our first conversation.
Q Do you recognize Sievers among the defendants?
A Yes -- first row, first one from the right.
Q What else was said about this research assignment that you were given?
A Mr. Sievers said the same thing to me that Professor Wuest had said, namely that this was research into combatting insect pests that do damage to human beings. I then pointed out to Sievers that this was a very large problem, and I should have to know precisely what problems specifically interested Himmler. Sievers answered that I myself should give these problems which I, on the basis of my specialized knowledge, would regard as the most pressing. I then had to say to Sievers again that was not possible without further attention, that I could only draw up a precise working program after I knew what equipment and work means were to be put at my disposal; and I asked him whether there were any laboratories, whether there were instruments, whether he had the necessary assistants, technicians, assistants, specialists and so forth, and to what extent this equipment was available. I was rather surprised when Sievers told me that there was nothing there at all yet, that he didn't know anything about the whole matter himself, he simply had the order, and there wasn't even a building available, and if I took over this matter I should have to erect this whole laboratory. Sievers and I reached some sort of an agreement to the effect that I agreed to carry out a very rough survey of the whole problem on the basis of which the specified work on the problem would later be arranged for, and furthermore, that I should make efforts either in Munich or in the neighborhood of Munich to find a building that could be used for the purpose of this institute.
Q Doctor, regarding this conversation of 1 April between you and Sievers that took place in Munich, there is a file note which I should like to show to you. Look at No. 4.
A Yes.
Q There is mention of observations on prisoners; was this question discussed on 1 April between you and Sievers?
A No, this whole point 4 is incorrect, because it says here "in this connection I am wondering whether we couldn't begin the experiments most rapidly if we used Dachau installations."
Now, in this first talk with Sievers there was no mention of Dachau. Otherwise I never should have made the suggestion that I find a building through private agencies, nor should I after this conversation have made an effort to find a building in that way. It was not very easy at that time to find buildings, so I ran all over the country and looked at various buildings which firms had named as for sale, and then made a suggestion to Sievers on this subject, which was then accepted by Sievers. In other words, there was no mention either of prisoners or of Dachau in this first conversation.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, a file note of some description has been submitted to the Witness. Will defense counsel kindly identify same?
DR. WEISGERBER: It is in document book 4, Document NO-721, Exhibit 126 of the Prosecution; page 15 of the Document Book No. 4.
Q In other words, there was no talk of carrying out observations on prisoners?
A No.
Q Was there any mention of the excellent medical facilities at Dachau?
A No.
Q Was there any talk of Professor Schling, who carried out his anopheles experiments in connection with tropical maleria in Dachau?
A No.
Q Then where was your institute housed?
A I found a building in the little town of Holzkirchen near Munich, which was for sale, and which would be suitable after being expanded. I spoke with Mr. Sievers. He agreed, liked the place and empowered me to enter into negotiations with the owner for the purpose of purchasing it. While these negotiations were still going on, Sievers again came to Munich, and in this third conversation, did he for the first time tell me that Himmler had decided that the laboratory, respectively the Institute was to be set up in Dachau.
I was rather surprised by this at first, and Sievers gave me the following reason for this. I have already mentioned that the taking over of this building in Holzkirchen, which was an old inn, would have involved remodeling, and Speer's prohibition regarding new construction work had already been issued, and Sievers said to me if the Institute is set up in Dachau we are no longer dependent on this Speer prohibition, because we have all the material we need. We have land belonging to the SS, and moreover there are enough architects and building technicians among the prisoners at Dachau to do the work for us. Sievers then asked me whether I agreed to this arrangement, because he had to tell me right at the beginning that I could not get any stone buildings in Dachau, such as I had intended, but could simply get a barracks, and he asked whether the entomological laboratory could be housed in a barracks. I then told Sievers that an entomological laboratory just like any others could be housed in a barracks, and that I had no objections to locating the research institute in Dachau.
Q When did this conversation take place, roughly?
A That, I believe, was four weeks after the first conversation, because I remember that I spent some time in locating a building, and that there was some length of time again elapsed before the plan of buying the building in Holzkirchen was abandoned.
THE PRESIDENT: It seems counsel that a considerable of this evidence is quite irrelevant. Can you not expedite the testimony of this witness?
Q When then did your laboratory begin its work?
A Let me interrupt. I am sorry, I didn't hear anything.
Q When did your institute begin its activity?
A The first experiments were in June of 1944.
Q Now, it is noteworthy that there is a lapse of roughly two years between the first discussion of this and the actual setting up of the institute.
A Yes, the preparatory work, construction and getting the instruments, and so forth.
Q Witness, was this delay to be traced back to the fact that Sievers went forward with this matter only very reluctantly and hesitatingly?
A Yes, that is the impression I had, namely that Sievers personally was not the least interested in these matters, and above all I had the impression that he did not use the means that on the basis of his position he could, in my opinion, have used and should have used in order to carry out the construction and preparations and to hasten them.
Q In other words he was very dilatory in this whole matter?
A Yes, very dilatory indeed; and I might say in addition that this was really a simple matter of barracks construction, a barracks that could have been erected in three or four weeks, and that it took more than half a year.
Q Now, in your institute, did you ever carry out any maleria experiments?
A No, maleria is not in my field at all. I named one of the main problems already, and I was told that I was to carry this out, namely to find new means of combatting larvae of biting mosquitoes -of creating a poison in powder form to be sprinkled over water in pools, stagnant water where mosquito larvae are breeding in order to kill off this larvae. Research in this was carried out at great length, and it was largely at this time the problem became particularly important, the problem of combatting them with new means, since the raw material situation was such the previous used means were not available any more in sufficient quantities.
Q Did you ever work with Professor Schilling in Dachau?
A No, I did not work with Professor Schilling, nor did I know him personally, but I found out in Dachau itself in conversations that in the camp a Professor Schilling was concerning himself with malaria and also was breeding mosquitoes to obtain the larvae, as I did for my experiments. The research institute was outside the camp.
Q Between you and the malaria institute, which was in the camp itself wherein your institute was outside the camp, was there any collaboration or did that institute made larvae available to you?
A No, I received no material from Schilling, and the Schilling institute never asked for material from my institute.
Q Did Sievers, in connection with your research activities, have anything to do with malaria research?
A No.
Q In Sievers' diary under 6 January 1944, there is an entry according to which there was a talk between you and Sievers on combatting malaria in Auschwitz?
A Yes, that was the following: Mr. Sievers reported to me one day that in the camp of Auschwitz the number of cases of malaria had increased, and it was intended to undertake measures against this. He asked me whether something could be done that applied on the anopheles and whether in combatting anopheles the mosquito was possible. I then told Sievers I would have to look at this first. Consequently, I went to Auschwitz and ascertained that under such and such prerequisites the shrinking of water with this powder could be undertaken. That is how this came about. 5877
Q In other words this activity at any rate had nothing to do with malaria experiments on human beings?
A No, this was simply the business of clearing the area of mosquitoes.
Q Under 22 February 1944 there is an entry in Sievers' diary, "Talk with Dr. May, collaboration with Dr. Ploetner and Professor Schilling;" from this one could infer that there after all was some sort of collaboration?
A Perhaps this entry refers to the following situation - but first of all I should like to say, there was never any talk about any collaboration: During the time the institution was constructed, I had taken over a number of people in these barracks, who in themselves had nothing to do with my experiments, but whom I merely gave an opportunity to settle there. If I remember correctly I was informed, or rather I was asked by Professor Wuest, not by Sievers, whether it was possible to accommodate a certain Professor Ploetner to enable him to carry on his experiments. I emphasize this is not a matter of collaboration, but merely the furnishing of space. I met Professor Ploetner, he was introduced to me, and we went out to the barracks, which at that time had only been half completed.
Q Doctor, I believe that will suffice.
A Perhaps I may add that Dr. Ploetner looked at the barracks and said he did not have sufficient space there.
Q Did you have an opportunity of ascertaining whether Sievers had anything to do with Dr. Schilling's department?
A No.
Q You really had nothing to do with the real inside of the concentration camp in Dachau?
A No, this research station was outside the SS camp.
I was not even allowed to enter the concentration camp.
Q During the course of your activities at Dachau, did you ever come in contact with Professor Blome?
A Yes, that occurred in the beginning; and I don't know whether directly through Blome or through Sievers' mediation I received an inquiry to the effect that I render an expert opinion to Dy. Blome concerning the possibility of taking a combat measure in case that harmful insects be dropped from airplanes.
Q Did this conference with Blome concern itself with an active biological warfare?
A No, at that time the question was discussed whether it was possible that in the case of dropping potatoe insects, a certain counter measure could be taken, and what in detail was to be done.
Q Was Sievers present during that conference?
A I believe.
Q Did you see Professor Hirt, the anatomical expert at the University of Strassburg?
A Yes, I made his acquaintance upon my own desire. In the expert world, it was well known that Hirt had developed a fluorescent microscopic method with the Zeiss firm. At this time it was quite a new affair and I was extremely interested in the matter, because I attempted to apply this method also in the entomological field. At this time I drew Sievers' attention to this method whereupon Sievers replied that he know Professor Hirt, and Professor Hirt was collaborating with him in some manner. He further said that he would make it possible for me to meet Hirt and I would therefore be able to look at his intravital microscopic work.
Q. You then looked at Hirt's work, and this mainly concerned experiments with insects?
AA number of gentlemen were present at that time. I remember that Hirt held an introductory lecture about his method, and he then demonstrated it.
Q Was the other part of Dr. Hirt's activities discussed in Strassburg at that time?
A No.
Q In the summer of 1944 sea-water experiments were to be carried out at Dachau; did Sievers discuss this question with you?
A No, Sievers said nothing to me about sea-water experiments, but the following connection has to be observed here. Sievers, one day asked me, when visiting me, whether it was possible for me to furnish a room. We were then concerned with a number of chemists who were to carry out chemical examinations and had to be accommodated for two to three weeks. He said that the gentlemen would bring all the equipment with them that they only need a room and they needed gas and water. I agreed to do that, and after a certain period of time a number of gentlemen arrived and settled there. It was only on this occasion that I found out what the connection was, namely that seawater was to be made potable by applying a special method, and this sea-water was to be given to the inmates to drink and that the analysis of urine was to be carried out in the room I placed at the disposal of these chemists.
Q You know nothing about the manner of execution of these experiments?
A No, nothing at all.
Q Can you say anything at all about Sievers' participation in these experiments?
A No, I know nothing further than that Dr. Sievers asked me, if it would be possible to accommodate a number of these chemists for a period of from two to three weeks.
Q I once more establish that your institute had nothing at all to do with these sea water experiments. Do you know on the basis of conversations which you heard at your institute anything about the extent and the result of these sea water experiments?
A No, I found out nothing about that. I only found out what I already told you concerning this room which I furnished and where I knew that urinalyses were being carried through. I only came into a very superficial contact with these gentlemen. I remember a certain man -- I think his name was Schuster or Schumacher -- who repeatedly approached me because he as a civilian, like myself, could not eat at the officers' mess, and had to go somewhere else for his food, and that is how a very superficial contact was established with that gentleman.
Q I am being informed that when translating the demonstration of Hirt regarding intravital microscopical work; the word "frogs" was not used, in the translation, and I should once more like to establish that the demonstrations of Hirt's that you witnessed were carried out on frogs.
A Yes; that is correct.
Q In connection with these sea water experiments, do you remember the name, "Dr. Beiglboeck"?
A Yes. By way of conversation I learned through my secretary that this group of chemists who were working with me were working under a certain Professor Beiglboeck. Personally I did not make the acquaintance of Professor Beiglboeck.
Q This conference regarding the furnishing of the room took place on the 20th of July, 1944, on the basis of Sievers' diary. Do you know whether Sievers went to Dachau after this period of time?
A No.
DR. WEISGERBER: Mr. President, I have concluded the examination of this witness. 5882
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any questions to the witness on the part of any other Defense Counsel? If not, the Prosecution may crossexamine.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q Witness, what is your present address?
A My present address is the same which was mentioned by Defense Counsel before, Starnberg, Oberbayern.
Q Whom are you living with now?
A With whom?
Q Yes.
A I am living alone.
Q You are living alone. How well did you know Professor Hirt?
A I made Professor Hirt's acquaintance at Strassbourg. That was probably around Summer, 1944.
Q How well did you know Dr. Rascher?
A I made Dr. Rascher's acquaintance in Spring, 1944, when I was engaged in the construction of the institute. On one occasion when I was out there and observed the development of the institute, an officer came alone, and introduced himself to me. He said his name was Dr. Rascher, and he told me that he was active in the camp doing experimental work, and on that occasion asked me what my activity was. I told Dr. Rascher about my work, and he asked me to show him some of my laboratory equipment which was unpacked.
Q Well, now, after you had been established in the entomological institute which was outside of the camp at Dachau, did you ever have a visit from Professor Blome?
A No. Professor Blome was never in Dachau.
Q You don't ever remember seeing Professor Blome on his way to visit Dr. Rascher?
A No.
Q You never heard whether or not Professor Blome experimented on human beings with Dr. Rascher? 5883
A No; I never heard anything about that.
Q Well, now, do you know a Miss Schmidt that used to work for Professor Hirt?
A No.
Q Didn't Miss Schmidt at one time work for Professor Hirt and then come to work with you?
A Schmidt?
Q That's right.
A Schmidt.
Q Yes.
A I beg your pardon. I understood "Smead". It is "Schmidt". Yes. Yes. I know that a Miss Schmidt came to me and worked with me as a technical assistant. She had previously been working with Professor Hirt.
Q Did Miss Bennemann also come to work with you from Professor Hirt's laboratory?
A Yes. Yes. These two ladies, Miss Schmidt and Miss Bennemann, had come from Professor Hirt.
Q What was their specific field of research? Were they specialists in some sort of particular problem that you had an interest in?
A No. They had no special research field at all. They were ordinary technical assistants as one needs them in every laboratory. I had a great lack of technical assistants. I only had one who was not very good, and I repeatedly asked Mr. Sievers to get me at least another two technical assistants since I could not make any progress in any other way. As a result, one day these two ladies arrived, Schmidt and Bennemann. They had no special knowledge of any kind but only knew about general technical matters as is demanded of a technical assistant.
Q Well, now, how far is it -- how long a ride is it from Strassburg to Dachau? 5884
A That all depends. It depends what time you are speaking of. It depends whether any air attacks were taking place or not. At any rate, when I was in Strassburg at that time visiting Professor Hirt, there was an express train from Munich to Strassburg which was very fast.
I am not sure whether it took eight or ten hours. At any rate, one could do it within one day. Later, however, that was no longer possible.
Q Well, these two assistants that you received from Professor Hirt, they later went back to Professor Hirt, didn't they?
A I don't know that at the moment. I think they stayed with me almost until the laboratory dissolved. I can't tell you that exactly. I think I can remember that at least one of these two young ladies left a little earlier than the other one in order to go to Tuebingen. Already in March or April I sent my female assistants home.
Q Well, now, they went to Tuebingen to the institute that Professor Hirt had set up there, didn't they?
A I don't know whether Professor Hirt had an institute at Tuebingen.
Q Now, Doctor, you stated that you knew that these experiments were to be conducted concerning sea water. Did you know that these experiments were to be conducted on the inmates of the Dachau concentration camp?
A No. I only learned that later.
Q Well, didn't you assume that they would be conducted on human beings?
A I thought that this regenerated sea water would be given to people to drink, but I didn't think of inmates. I really considered these experiments to be very harmless.
Q Well, then, didn't it strike you rather strange that they would be coming to Dachau to perform these experiments rather than doing it in Berlin?
A No. This didn't strike me as being peculiar at all. At the beginning I thought that I was to accommodate a few chemists temporarily who had been bombed out from somewhere, and that I was giving these people a temporary possibility to work and that they were later to continue their work at another place.
That was what I thought originally.
Q Did you know where Professor Beiglboeck came from?
A No. I hadn't known his name or where he came from.
Q He was a Vienna boy, wasn't he?
A I don't know that.
Q It is rather a substantial ride from Vienna to Dachau, isn't it?
A That is not too bad from Vienna to Munich. You can do that normally within one day or three quarters of a day. That is no affair at all.
Q Then you exclude the possibility that the purpose of bringing these men to Dachau to experiment with sea water was only because the subjects were available there?
A Well, after having heard that from this and that side, I naturally got to know what the connections were: but you were asking me whether from the very beginning I had known about it, and at that time I didn't. I hadn't known that Dr. Beiglboeck had come from Vienna; I didn't know what experiments one was concerned with. All I learned was that a number of chemists would come along to carry out chemical tests. I was asked whether it was possible for me to accommodate them for a short period of time. That was all I knew.
Q Well, now, you gave them a room in your institute, didn't you?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever see what happened to that room?
A Occasionally I passed the room and I saw that chemical experiments were carried out there. Dr. Schuster or Dr. Schumacher whom I mentioned before, and whose name I don't recollect exactly, -- I found out that urinalyses were being carried out.
Q Now do you know Dr. Mrugowsky, SS-Standartenfuehrer Mrugowsky, who later became SS-Oberfuehrer? Do you know him?
A Yes, I made Dr. Mrugowsky's acquaintance. I saw him once, and that was in Berlin.
Q Do you remember when you met him in Berlin?
A Well, that is hard to say.
Q Would you say it was -
A I was in Berlin ver often.
Q Would you say it was in the year 1941? 1942?
A No. No. No. No. No. That must have been in 1944. The only year in question is 1944, but I don't know exactly when in 1944.
Q Let's have a look at a document, Doctor, which was presented here in evidence as Prosecution Exhibit No. 124 -
MR. HARDY: -- which Your Honor will find in Document Book No. 3, which is Document No. NO-647 and is on the last page of Document Book No. 3. Now this states: "Notice." The subject: "Cooperation with the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen--SS.
"With reference to my letter of 9 June 1942 regarding vermin control, a meeting took place on 21 October 1942 with the participation of SS-Standartenfuehrer Dr. Mrugowsky and SS-Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Schadlau, Keisbeck Strasse 43/44. Under discussion was the cooperation not only in the field of vermin control but also in the research sphere of Rascher, and with regard to the use of gastein water in cases of freezing as well as in various operational fields of the Hygiene Institute. As had already been laid down in the interview with SSUntersturmfuehrer, Dr. Schadlau, on 6 November 1941, 'K' Enterprise: release of the archeologist Hunt.
"A further meeting took place then at the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS on 20 November 1942 in which SS-Standartenfuehrer Dr. Mrugowsky, SS-Standartenfuehrer Sievers, and lecturer Dr. May, took part."
A Yes.
MR. HARDY: "Dr. May promised on that occasion to send in his