Q. Now, did the girls inquire of you for what reason they were being prepared for an operation?
A. No, I did not ask them that. Prof. Gebhardt told me, as I have already said on direct examination, that this was an order from a very high authority; that the State had ordered it; that it was legal; that the experiments would not be dangerous; and that these were Polish women who were condemned to death. They were in the block under the strictest discipline, and they were not allowed to leave the camp to work. When they came to me, they never offered any resistance, so that I assumed that everything was legal.
Q. Now, Miss Oberheuser, did you tell these girls before they were operated on that they would be pardoned if their operation was successful?
A. No, I had nothing to do with that.
Q. Now, you know about the case of the two girls, Miss Kutschek and Miss Peruska, don't you?
A. At the moment, I can't remember exactly.
Q. Well, there was a case where you delayed the execution of these two girls because they still had another X-ray to be taken?
A. I don't believe that is correct. I did not take care of the X-rays. That was done by Dr. Stumpfogger himself. He conducted his experiments himself, and he himself took the plaster casts off. He also took the X-ray pictures himself; and I knew nothing about it.
Q. Then those girls that were executed had already undergone experiments, had they not?
A. Yes, I assume so.
Q. Now, would it not have been your duty to see to it that the sentences of these girls be commuted and that the camp administrators and Gebhardt and Fischer stick to their bargain and insist that the executions be cancelled?
A. In the first place I knew nothing about it; and then I should also like to say that my position was that of a sub-altern, assistant physician. I was a specialist. I had no disciplinary authority. I was in opposition to the SS. I could not express any wishes; and I knew nothing about it. The only thing that I could do was to help the individual patient. Beyond that I could do nothing.
Q. Well, weren't you aware of the fact that the sulfanilamide experiments must have caused considerable pain to the experimental subjects?
A. As they were carried out, I believe that the patients did not suffer greatly. They never said anything to that effect either when being treated by Prof. Gebhardt or by Dr. Fischer; and I myself never had any difficulties. I always believed that they appreciated my care; and in addition there was the chance that they would be pardoned.
Q. Now, Doctor, did those girls walk around after they were operated on smiling and saying, "I'm happy that Dr. Fischer operated on me"?
A. No, it was not like that; but I never heard anything unfavorable. I never heard that they expressed any hatred against me. When the dressings were changed, they were always glad to have me there.
Q. Now, did you never consider that the eventual mental depression might have been caused by those pains and by the inability to walk, in particular, those girls in the control group?
A. May I ask you to repeat your question? I didn't understand it.
Q. Didn't you ever consider, Dr. Oberheuser, that eventually those girls would suffer extreme mental depression because of the pains that they endured during the course of the experiments and because of their inability to walk in later life?
A. Certainly they did suffer spiritually; but they did that before because they were expecting to be executed. They were living in the block where the people lived who were condemned to death; and through this operation they had a chance to be pardoned; and besides, only a small part of them became seriously ill. The others healed very quickly; and the case was merely that of a Carbuncle.
Q. Now, before we proceed any further in this crossexamination, I wish to go back. If I recollect from your answer here this morning, you stated that it is possible, or true, that some of those girls were executed after they had endured the experiments; isn't that right?
A. I don't know. I can't say anything about that. I heard that only here in the courtroom.
Q. You must have known that these operations would have had a lasting effect on those victims and would practically cripple them?
A. No, I could not know that because I was a dermatologist; and those cases were quite foreign to me.
Q. Now, assume for the moment that one of the girls was seriously ill, and Dr. Fischer or Gebhardt were at Hohenlichen. How were you able to determine whether or not they should be called immediately to the bedside of that girl?
A. The temperature was checked regularly and the state of health of the patients, whether they expressed any pain or whether there were any minor changes.
The post physician reported; and I was under him. In that case he reported immediately to Hohenlichen; and Hohenlichen was not far away. Then either Prof. Gebhardt or Dr. Fischer came, or both of them.
Q. Now, when was the last time that you saw any of the experimental subjects after the operations, apart from those whom you saw in this courtroom?
A. May I ask you to repeat the question?
Q. When did you last see any of the girls who had been subjected to those experiments at Ravensbruck, other than the girls who were here in this courtroom?
A. I cannot remember any except for the one who was here. She yet had a skin defect; and I remember that I saw her last. The others were as good as healed. In cross-examination I have already said that in April I looked at perhaps three or four, and that nothing more was necessary except the application of ointment.
Q. Now, for how long after each experimental operation did you have the inmates under your observation?
A. Until they were healed.
Q. What was the latest time after the experimental operation at which you saw any of those inmates?
A. Now, of course I am no longer able to say that individually; but in the first groups they healed very quickly, and then the witnesses whom we saw here took a little longer. I have already said that in April I saw perhaps three; and they needed only ointment.
Q. April of what year?
A. 1943.
Q. Now, you saw these girls that appeared here in this courtroom, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Some of them were still ill, weren't they?
A. That was a final condition on which I can report nothing here because I am a dermatologist.
Q. Were there any plans made for regular follow-up's after the experimental operations?
A. I can say nothing about that. It is impossible after an infection, after an infectious suppuration, to do anything. No baths can be given, and no massage.
Q. Did you ever give the girls any drug to relieve the pain after these operations?
A. Yes, they were given drugs regularly.
A. How about the case of Miss Baj, spelled B-a-j, wherein she states in her affidavit, "Oberhauser told us herself that she could give us nothing to alleviate our pains, as it would delay the healing of our legs," do you recall telling her that?
A. No. That is about four years ago now. Everyone who had pain was given morphine. That is confirmed repeatedly by the testimony of the witnesses. Perhaps in this case we did not want to give this particular patient too much morphine to avoid plaster pressure, but otherwise they were given morphine, and I had strict orders from Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer not to spare the morphine.
A. Did you ever have any orders from Dr. Gebhardt to let those girls die?
A. No.
Q. Did you have orders from Professor Gebhardt to give only minimum treatment?
A. No. In my direct examination I have already said how Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer were concerned about the patients, and particularly about the last group in which there were a number who were seriously ill. The dressings were changed, subsequent operations were performed, drainage was arranged where the legs were immobilized in plaster casts, gangrene serum was given, blood transfusions heart stimulants, and everything that was necessary.
Q. In the case of where these girls died after the experiments, did you notify Dr. Fischer immediately?
A. Yes. As I have already said in my direct examination this morning, if there were only very minor changes, a rise in temperature, this was regularly reported to Hohenlychen, and I recall that it was often on Sunday when Dr. Fischer and Professor Gebhardt came over to look after the patients.
Q. How does it happen the worthy Dr. Fischer was not present when these girls died?
A. I cannot say the hours of death exactly any longer, but Professor Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer had been there before. They were so worried, and they did everything humanly possible.
Q. Yet they were not there when the patients died?
A. I was there. I was called, but I can only say that everything possible was done. For after a while the strength of the heart becomes gradually reduced. This happens as it does in the clinic too: If someone dies in the clinic the ward physician is present. The previous treatment and everything that has to be done is ordered by the Chief Physician.
Q. Now, how many people had you experience as a doctor prior to the death of these five or six girls in the experiments?
A. I do not remember that there were five or six experimental subjects. I can remember only three; and I can no longer tell you how many people I have seen die, but I had worked for four years in a clinic before that.
Q. Prior to these deaths as a result of sulphanilamide experiments how many people had you killed with gasoline injections in the Ravensbruck camp?
A. I didn't kill anybody.
Q. How many people did you accord these so-called mercy deaths to prior to the death of those girls who had undergone the experiment?
A. What I did was not a mercy death. It was medical aid for suffering patients in their agony.
Q. What did you inject into the patients to relieve them from their suffering?
A. I gave them morphine, and then the post physician gave me a mixture, I don't know what it contained exactly.
Q. The mixture contained gasoline, didn't it?
A. I cannot say. During an interrogation the interrogator said to me "that was of course gasoline, that was customary," and so I was pushed into that. I don't know myself exactly what it was. I was given it by the post physician.
Q. Well, now, do you mean to tell me that you could not determine whether or not you were injecting gasoline into a person; couldn't you smell it?
A. I gave the syringe to the post physician and he put the liquid into it. I don't know.
Q. Now, in your affidavit you state as follows: "It was no rarity at Ravensbruck, that persons who were already approaching death were killed by injections. I myself have given five or six such injections." Now, from the overwhelming statements of witnesses and investigations, it is obvious that you gave many more than that; are you ready now here, inasmuch as you are under oath, to admit that you administered lethal injections to more than five or six persons in the Ravensburck Concentration Camp?
A. No.
Q. You limit it to five or six, do you, Doctor?
A. I don't know the number exactly. It might have been only four or five.
Q. Now in the course of your direct examination you gave the impression you were sympathetic and helpful to all the patients in the Ravensbruck Concentration Camp: I want to call your attention to the affidavit of Helen Piosacka, which is Document No. 864, which will be found in Document Book No. 10, also found on page 926 of the English transcript, wherein the affiant states as follows:
"In the beginning of 1942 there was an old German woman of about 80 years wearing the green triangle on her arm in the passage of the revier; she asked Dr. Oberhauser for some pills. She was ill and could scarcely move. Oberhauser asked her why she was in the camp. As she did not reply Oberhauser kicked her. The woman fell to the ground crying. Oberhauser laughed and told her to get up, and go away, and gave her no medicine. I was in the passage and witnessed this." Wasn't that rather a typical example of how you treated the patients, Doctor?
A. I never did any such thing. I had four years of training in the clinic before, and I had models and good examples from my chief physician, and I always followed their example, and after my period at Ravensbruck I went to another clinic. I tried for three quarters of a year to change my position. I do not believe that during this time I could change either from the human or from the medical point of view. I always repudiated such actions, and I would not have been able to act in such a way; and I have also said that the SS atmosphere was not pleasant to me, and after a year and a half I was not able to stand it any longer; and perhaps it was only a very brief time when I thought everything was in order there, but then I said to myself I had to help the patients and I managed to held out for a year and a half, and then I tried again to take the first chance that offered itself, because I was obligated to serve there and was not able to leave. I asked Professor Gebhardt to help me.
Q. Now, Doctor, I wish to call your attention to the affidavit of Baj again.
She corroborated the testimony of Miss Poisacka, wherein she stated, "I have seen Oberhauser beat and throw women out of the sick bay that came to the sick bay for treatment for their legs which had gotten badly cut while working during the day. She did not give them any treatment." Other witnesses testified to great length that you held sick call and used to sit at the examining table and kick the women when they filed by and they aroused your displeasure in any way. Now, in the interrogation by Major Mant of the British Army of the Rhine, you stated that during sick call you had to look over 300 to 400 patients, and that you sat on the examining table while looking over the patients, and in the course of that interrogation you added the following words, "In sitting there I held the point of my foot somewhat stretched forward in order to see the patients better in their entirety;" do you recall talking to Major Mant in that regard?
A. Yes, it was at my first interrogation which was carried out by Miss Karl-Mory and she forced me into this statement which is not of any significance. I did not kick anyone. I can only repeat that I had clinical training behind me and I managed to get out of these terrible surroundings and I went back to the clinic; and if I may add this, I had worked for a long time in the children's ward in Dusseldorf and when I came to Hohenlychen I again took over the children's ward. And I can only emphasize again and again that I repudiate any such action and that I would not be capable of acting in this way. I treated all my patients in the same way. As the witness, Techiedo said, I did not treat her badly.
Q. Now, Doctor, in regard to this examination of three to four hundred patients during your sick calls, isn't it true that you told Major Mant as I have stated here that you sat on the examining table and looked over the patients as they came forward? Isn't that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, now, didn't you also tell him that you held the point of your foot somewhat stretched forward so that you could get a presective or see the patients better in their entirety?
A. I should like to say otherwise it is customary for the doctor to sit at a desk and the patient to sit at some distance. This was, of course, not possible, and the patients came so close one after the other that one could not see the whole body. For that reason it was not necessary for me to do it with my foot, but the prisoner nurses saw to it that they came at certain intervals so that one could see the whole body because it was a specialist treatment.
Q. Well, now isn't an examining table made to have the patients sit or lie on and not the doctor?
A. First the patients who had scabies or some other minor matters were treated, and then, as I said in my direct examination, the patients where further clinical examination was necessary, I gave them appointments for the afternoon, and if I had to have a patient lie down, then, of course, I did so.
Q. Well, now, then we will go back to these experiments, Doctor. In the course of these medical experiments did you participate in the selection of the inmates? You may answer these questions "yes" or "no".
A. No.
Q. Did you examine the patients as a pre-examination or a pre-operative examination?
A. I have repeatedly said in my direct examination and again this morning that I looked at the patients who were sent to me according to the lists. I tested their skin, their hearts and their lungs as is done before any operation where an anesthetic is required.
Q. You assisted Dr. Fischer and Dr. Gebhardt during the course of the operation?
A. I helped in applying a dressing on one occasion. I have already spoken about that during my direct examination and again this morning.
Q. You were present during most of the examinations or operations?
A. Yes.
Q. You administered the anesthesia in many cases, did you not?
A. No always. I have already described what my duties were, and the method of incision was called to my attention so that in the case of pressure or congestion I would be able to loosen the dressing so that I would not touch the wound and cause any damage.
The post physician said I was merely like a handyman. I was not given any special duties. I gave the customary assistance in an operating room. I turned on the lamp and sometimes handed the doctor something.
Q. You also attended the inmates after the operation?
A. Yes. That was my duty. At least I considered it my duty.
Q. You state to your knowledge only three persons died as a result of these experiments and not five or six as stated here in the presentation of the Prosecution's case in chief, is that right?
A. I can remember only three.
Q. How many persons were shot or executed after they had been subjected to these experiments?
A. This morning I have already said that I had no idea about these shootings; that I heard about them for the first time here in the courtroom.
Q. And in your affidavit in connection with these lethal injections you admit that you gave five or six lethal injections, is that correct?
A. No.
Q. Did you hear that?
A. I said no.
Q. Well, you gave injections and after such injections the persons died, did they not?
A. I said just now, and I said during my direct examination, that I was giving medical assistance to suffering patients in agony.
Q. All right now, if I understand you correctly, these were not in the category of mercy killings, were they?
That is, euthanasia?
A. I heard about that only here in the courtroom.
Q. Well, do you consider the cases wherein you injected persons as being typical euthanasia cases as you know euthanasia from this courtroom?
A. I can only say that I was giving medical aid to suffering patients in agony.
Q. And this medical aid resulted in death, did it not? Did you hear that?
A. No.
Q. I said, "and this medical aid resulted in death, did it not?"
A. As I said, they were patients in agony.
Q. Miss Oberhauser, were you ever awarded the Iron Cross?
A. No.
Q. What did you get? What Award?
A. If I remember correctly, it was the War Merit Medal, Kriegaverdienst-Medaille.
Q. And for what reason did you receive that medal?
A. I don't know.
Q. Was it for your participation in the sulfanilamide experiments?
A. Certainly not.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further examination by Counsel for Defendant?
DR. SEIDL: Dr. Seidl for the Defendant, Dr. Herta Oberhauser.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, the Prosecutor asked you whether you had anything to do with the selection of the experimental subjects?
A. No.
Q. I shall now show you an affidavit which was submitted by the Prosecution as Exhibit 226. It is an affidavit of the witness, Sofia Sokulska. I quote:
"During my stay in Ravensbrueck two experimental operations were preformed on me. There were two other attempts made to operate on me which I thwarted. On the 1st of August, 1942, I was told to report to the large sick bay rivier with nine other prisoners by Helena Bella, secretary to Mandel."
I ask you does not the statement of this Prosecution witness show very clearly that the experimental subjects were obviously selected by the camp administration or by the political department or by some other even higher authority, for example, the Reich Security Main Office, the RSHA, which passed on the list?
A. Yes, and I have repeatedly said during my direct examination and this morning, too.
Q. The witness, Sofia Baj, said somethings very similar, Exhibit 227 of the Prosecution. She said the following, and I quote:
"On the day of my operation a list of ten names including mine was read during the morning roll call. We went to the office and asked supervisor Langenfeld what was wanted of us. She said she did not know, but shortly after we were taken to the sick bay.
I ask you did you yourself have anything to do with the roll call of prisoners?
A. No, nothing.
Q. Would you agree with me if I say that this statement again shows very clearly that the selection of experimental subjects was done by the camp administration or some other high authority?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any files on the prisoners in your hospital?
A. No.
Q. Then it would not have been possible for you from the technical point of view to select experimental subjects since you did not know for what reason the prisoners were in the camp? Is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Was the preliminary examination which you preformed on the prisoners in any way different from the preliminary examination given before any operation?
A. No.
Q. You had testified that you learned of the experiments only when Prof. Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer had already begun them?
A. Yes.
Q. You have also testified that according to Prof. Gebhardt the experiments were not dangerous; now, I ask you: On the basis of the statements made by Prof. Gebhardt, did you have to assume that in connection with these experiments the experimental subjects would suffer any serious lasting consequences?
A. I could not judge that. I could only assume if Prof. Gebhardt said to me that the experiments were not dangerous, I believed him, because I was a dermatologist.
Q. Did you yourself have the impression that Prof. Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer did everything in their power -
A. Yes, otherwise I would probably not have helped them, and I would not have had confidence in Prof. Gebhardt and Dr. Fischer, and would have helped me to change my job. It was the same clinical course, the same clinical treatment which I knew from the university clinic where I worked for four years.
Q. That is especially true of the so-called control persons?
A. Yes.
Q. They also were treated, and, if necessary, by surgical means?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, something else, witness. Here in the courtroom you heard the prosecution expert witness Prof. Leibbrandt?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember his testimony?
A. Yes.
Q. Prof. Leibbrandt in particular made statements about what circumstances, and what prerequisites, make it permissible for a doctor to accord a euthanasia to a patient who is about to die. Do you remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I ask you: These patients to whom you accorded aid, were they people for whom one could say, according to Prof. Leibbrandt, that even he would consider euthanasia permissible?
A. Yes.
Q. As far as you can recall, they were patients who were incurable, who were suffering from cancer, and who could not be given any help?
A. Yes, I have described it in detail in my direct examination; and, as I said, this was formulated in such a horrible form in the affidavit.
Q. Is it in particular true that these patients asked you to help them?
A. Yes. Under other circumstances I could never have done any such thing.
Q. The prosecutor has read the testimony of the witnesses Piesezka and Baj to you. They were not examined before this court but they signed affidavits.
In one of these affidavits, in that of Sofia Baj, it is said that you mistreated an eighty-year-old woman. Now, I ask you: Were there women of any such age as eighty in this camp of Ravensbruck?
A. Not that I know of. Generally, we had younger people, and I do not believe we had any eighty-year-old woman. I don't believe we had any seventy-year-olds in the camp. They were mostly younger people.
Q. Between statements of Piesezka and Baj on the one hand, and those of the witness Tschiedo who was examined before this Tribunal, there is an obvious discrepancy. You are of the opinion that the witness Tschiedo is nearer the truth than the other two witnesses, is that true?
A. I should like to say that I treated all patients in the same way, that I gave all patients the same treatment. Where aid was needed, I gave it. I acted as I did in the clinic, and I do not believe that in this short time that I was in Ravensbruck, when I came from a clinic and went back to a clinic again, that I could have changed from my point of view, as a human being or a doctor.
Q. And you also remember the contents of the affidavit of the witness Wytla, which we submitted here before your examination. Does this witness give an accurate picture of your work in the sick bay, and of your efforts to help the patients?
A. Yes. I did everything I could. I did whatever I could to help the patients.
Q. Finally, you were asked whether you were given any War award. You answered that you were given the War Merit Medal.
I ask you: Does this mean anything special, or is it not a fact that during the war in Germany several million people received this medal?
A. Yes: and at the moment I cannot remember when I got it. It is even possible that I had it before the sulfonamide experiments, but I cannot remember exactly.
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you referred several times to the SS atmosphere in the camp. What did you mean by that?
WITNESS: How it was in the camp itself I cannot testify anything special because I lived quite isolated. I can speak only about the SS doctors, the post physician under whom I was, under whose orders I was, and the German nurses. I can only say that they were hostile to me. I Lived and acted according to clinical principles, while they looked at the people only when they felt like it. and besides, the tone was such that as a woman I often had to blush. It was a circle into which I did not fit, and in which I did not feel at home, and my activity was limited almost exclusively to my dermatological work.
THE PRESIDENT: The matter to which you have just testified, then, was what you intended to designate the the SS atmosphere in the camp, is that correct?
WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Concerning these patients whom you testified were suffering from incurable cancers, what was the injection that you administered intended to produce-was it to alleviate their suffering or to cause their death?
WITNESS: To relieve their suffering.
THE PRESIDENT: In what way?
WITNESS: These people were in agony.
THE PRESIDENT: Did I understand you to testify that you did not know what was the contents of the injection container which you used in treating these people?