They all had to be established.
Q. And what was the entire medical personnel that was subordinated to you at the beginning and at the end of the war?
A. At the beginning of the war there were approximately 800 men and at the end there were approximately thirty thousand.
Q. What was the status of the medical schools?
A. At the outbreak of the war the SS medical academy was at my disposal for the training of the medical officers, and two medical schools. At the end of the war there were thirteen medical schools or special schools.
Q. And how many hospitals were at the disposal of the Waffen SS?
A. At the beginning we had two hospitals, one near - one at Berlin and one in Munich, and at the end of the war we had more than sixty, and about half of them were fully equipped with clinical equipment, and the other ones were specialized hospitals. These hospitals, just like our divisions, they were located all ever the occupied territories and in the Reich. They were in Finnland, the Eastern Front, the Southern Front, also in France and the Netherlands, and, therefore, it was very difficult to take care of the supervision of these hospitals. And, therefore, this took too much time. We were unable to take the necessary care of all these hospitals.
Q. Were there any medical depots, and what was their task?
A. At the outbreak of the war we had the main medical depot at Berlin, and towards the end of the war we had eight of these depots. And their task was to supply the units at the front and at home with appropriate medical material and equipment, and with medicine and dressings and things of that kind, and to furnish the necessary equipment to the hospitals.
Q. Furthermore, you also had hygienic institutes?
A. At the outbreak of the war we had the hygienic institute of the Waffen SS, and by August 1943, it was the longest time these institutes were subordinated to me, we added six further institutes, and while this first institute was the only one which was located at home in Berlin, the remaining six institutes were located in the occupied territories.
They were at Riga, Minsk, Jepopotrowsk, Kiew, Reichkow, and Balbach.
Q. Now, how did your organization work at the Waffen SS? Would it vary from that of the medical inspectorate, the three branches of the Wehrmacht?
A. The three inspectorates of the branches of the Wehrmacht were able to work on the experiences which they had gained in peacetime. From the figures which I have given with regard to the Waffen SS indicate the organization of the medical service of the Waffen SS had to be newly established and under conditions of war. In contrast to the medical inspectorates of the branches of the Wehrmacht, we did not have the field of scientific research and planning in my agency. I also did not have the title of inspector.
Q. And at that time who took care of the scientific research and planning within the SS?
A. It was exclusively dealt with by the Reich Physician SS. That was for the entire organization of the SS and police.
Q. And in what field did you now have to overcome the greatest difficulties?
A. I have already mentioned that the biggest calamity or difficulty was the procurement of medical officers for the units which were to be newly established. It was especially difficult to obtain the necessary specialist physicians like surgeons, internal physicians, etc., and with the shortage of physicians prevailing at that time it was natural that the branches of the Wehrmacht and also the civilian sector did not like very much to assign physicians to the other units. And we had especially great difficulties in procuring suitable equipment for our hospitals because the branches of the Wehrmacht had already confiscated equipment in peacetime and they had started in suitable places. They had confiscated equipment and schools at the proper places, while we had at this time to begin in procuring our equipment and objectives. That was not only the SS but also the other organizations like it, organizations like Todt, the Hitler Youth, the Labor Service.
Q. All these measures then were acute in June 1944.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, as a result of the developments of the war, especially through air attack, did you encounter any difficulties, and what was their effect?
A. As a result of the innumerable air attacks in Berlin, and also at other localities, severe damage and destruction was caused and as a result we were unable to function properly since ay agency in Berlin was on four occasions damaged to a considerable extent through air attacks. I was forced in the summer of 1943 to find other quarters seventy kilometers from Berlin, and I transferred the larger part of ay agency to that place and only had a small staff with the old agency in Berlin.
Q. And if I have correctly understood your previous statements, you would then state that your sole and exclusive tasks consisted of taking care of the "medical service of the Waffen SS.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you have a purely organization activity in that task or did you also have a medical work.
A. As I have previously stated, I was mostly active in the troop medical service with organization matters.
Q. According to the extent of your activities which you have described to us, did you have a time and a possibility in excess of that to work yourself with scientific research assignments?
A. No. These scientific orders I had to depend upon the advice cf my special collaborators.
Q. Did you ever make your appearance in public in any form as a scientist?
A. I have never had the opportunity to actively work in any research. Besides, in my work as a doctor I never published anything about medical work and therefore, in contrast to the other physicians of the Medical Service of the other branches of the, Wehrmacht, I did not have the title of professor.
Q. Now, what did your staff consist of as Chief of the Medical Service of the Waffen SS?
A. I directed the work of my office with seven physicians, two dentists, two pharmacists, and two administrative leaders.
Q. Now, witness, please tell the Tribunal briefly about the organization of your agency. That is, the organization cf the Medical Service of the Waffen SS.
A. First of all I was in charge of the organization and I worked on the secret files, the service regulations. Then I gave orders for new re-organizations. I directed the mail and the transportation system. Then comes the Director of the Personnel System, who was in charge of the personnel files and also the card index files and he was in charge of the training of replacements. We had to recruit medical replacement battalions. Furthermore, he had to take care of legal matters. Then comes the leader in charge of the administration. He was in charge of administering the thirty special hospitals. Then he was in charge of the corp of nurses and he had to procure new hospital equipment and, furthermore, he was in charge of the financial matters. Then comes the Chief of the Medical System and the medical service of the troops at home and on the front were subordinate to him. He had to take care of the wounded and the pa tients and he had to take care of the transporting of the wounded and the patients.
He was in charge of the hospital system and then he was in charge of establishing new medical units. He also, took care of the welfare, supply, and replacement system. Furthermore, he was in charge of the convalescent hospitals. Then comes the Chief of the Dental Service. He had to take care of the dental patients, the personnel system and the procurement of replacements. Then comes the Chief of the Pharmaceutical Service. He had to procure all medicines, dressings, and equipment for hospitals and this also included the procuring of food and chemicals. Then comes the Chief of the Hygienic Service. He was charged with the billeting and sanitary conditions of the troops, the combatting of epidemics of troops on the front end at home. He was also in charge of directing the hygienic institutes. That order appeared at the time of August 1943.
Q. Therefore this is an extensive description of your agency?
A. Yes.
Q. Therefore, in the organizational plan of your agency there was also an agency for scientific research and planning not foreseen?
A. No.
Q. In August 1943 was there any important organizational change with regard to the subordination?
A. In line with the re-organization f the Medical Service Himmler gave the order that all my pharmaceutical establishments and hygienic institutes as well as my four office chiefs in August 1943 I had to turn all of these over to the offices of the Reichs Physician SS and Police. So these institutes came under the supervision of the Raichs Physician SS and Police.
Q. And from what period of time was that?
A. That was August 1943. That was when Gebhardt, Grawitz, and I attended a lecture in the Field Command Post of Himmler at the headquarters and I have mentioned that already in the beginning.
Q. And this change was to become effective on the 1st of September 1943, is that correct?
A. At that time this order as directly dictated by Himmler?
Q. And what was Himmler trying to do with this re-organization?
A. In my opinion, with this he strengthened the position of the Reichs Physician, and the agency of the Reichs Physician SS and Police was built up in the sense of the scientific concentration and the clinical concentration with four educational agencies, it was the Chief of the Clinics, the Chief Dentist, Chief Pharmacist, and Chief Hygienist. On the other hand Himmler was placing me at a disadvantage in my position and he made my work more difficult. I had to work with younger people and I had to achieve the amount of work with more inexperienced personnel in the Medical Service.
DR. MERKEL: May it please the Tribunal, I am now coming to the sulfonimide experiments. Perhaps it would be a convenient time now to call a recess.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 9:30 o'clock Monday morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, Monday, 3 March 1947.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 3 March 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, ail the defendants are present in court with the exception of the Defendant Oberheuser who is absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant at Oberheuser's condition is serious and she is now in the hospital. It appearing that her absence will not prejudice her case, the defendant will be excused from attendance. The Secretary-Gener will note for the record the absence of the Defendant Oberheuser.
KARL GENZKEN - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. MERKEL (Counsel for the Defendant Genzken):
Q Witness, I am now coming to the individual experiments, which were carried out. First of all, the sulfanamide experiments in the concentration camp Ravensbruck. In the previous presentation of the prosecution this has only been mentioned on two occasions. That was at one time an affidavit from the co-defendant -
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal--pardon me for this interruption at this time the prosecution wishes to state that they will withdraw the charges against the Defendant Genzken in connection with the poison experiments and the incendiary bomb experiments in as much as they were conducted after the time that Grawitz took over research, that is after August of 1943.
Will it be necessary for me to repeat?
THE INTERPRETER: We can't hear you.
MR. HARDY: At this time the prosecution wishes to withdraw the charges against the Defendant Genzken in connection with the incendiary bomb experiments and the poison experiments as set forth in the indictment. Therefore, I think it will be more expeditious for the presentation of defendant's case if defense counsel will refrain from covering those two issues.
MR. MERKEL: I shall consider this fact in the course of my examination of this witness.
Q (By Dr. Merkel) I am now coming to the sulfanamide experiments -
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment, Counsel. The Secretary-General will note for the record that the prosecution has dismissed the charges against Defendant Genzken under Specification K, experiments with poison, and Specification L, the incendiary bomb experiments.
Q (By Dr. Merkel) Therefore, in connection with the sulfanomide experiments you are mentioned in two experiments, one of them in connection with an affidavit of the Co-Defendant Fischer, who stated that you attended his lecture at Hohenlychen, and Gebhardt's lecture at that time in May 1943. You were mentioned on the second occasion when in the course of the presentation of evidence of the prosecution, Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS was mentioned which furnished the gas gangrene cultures for these experiment. It was stated in this respect that the Hygiene Institute was subordinate to Dr. Mrugowsky and that the latter until August 1943 was subordinate to you. I therefore put the following question to you, witness, in this connection: When did you first find out about the experiments with sulfanamides in the Ravensbruck Concentration Camp?
AAs far as I can remember that was in the summer of 1943. When I returned from my gallstone illness, short thereon, at that time I discovered that Dr. Fischer had given a report on some congress according to which sulfanamide research had been made by Professor Gebhardt and him, and that the patients ward at Ravensbruck had been put at his disposal for that purpose. As a result, it had been achieved that the most part of the supply for the wounded at the front continued to remain in the surgical department.
Q And where did this meeting take place?
AAs I found out afterwards on the third meeting of the consultin medical officers in Berlin, it was in the Military Medical Academy, and ** **** place in May 1943.
Q Did you yourself participate in that meeting?
A No, I did not attend.
Q Your Co-Defendant, Dr. Fischer, has stated in his affidavit of the 21st of October 1946, Document 472, Prosecution Exhibit 234 in Prosecution Document Book No. 10, page 94, he has claimed that you participated in that meeting. How do you explain the contrast?
A Well, I was unable to be there because I was sick and I have not heard that lecture.
DR. MERKEL: May it please the Tribunal, in order to support the statement of the witness, may I present two affidavits here in evidence. First, Document Genzken, Number 7. That is on page 15 of my document book which I offer as Genzken Exhibit 1. It is an affidavit of Erich Burkhardt and reads as follows:
"I was SS-Unterscharfuehrer, and during the years 1943 and 1944 I was the driver of the former chief of the Medical Office of the Waffen-SS, SS Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Karl Genzken.
THE PRESIDENT: One moment please, is that in the English Document Book:
DR. MERKEL: May I repeat please, it is Document Genzken, Number 7, on page 15 of the Document Book.
"I remember that toward the end of April or the beginning of May 1943 I drove Dr. Genzken from Berlin to Karlsbad to take the cure. Sturmbannfuehrer Gross mann accompanied him on this trip. I dropped Dr. Genzken in the SS-hospital at Karlsbad and drove on with Grossman on an official trip to Prague for a few days. From there we returned to Berlin.
"Toward the end of May 1943 I fetched Dr. Genzken from Karlsbad after he had finished his cure."
I further offer Genzken document No. 10. It is on page 24 of my document book. I offer it as Genzken Exhibit No. 2. It is an affidavit by Herbert Gross mann and I quote:
"I was Chief of Medical. Affairs, and Personnel Official for Medical Personnel of lower rank in the Staff of the Medical Chief of Waffen -SS, Dr. Karl Genzken, from 1942 until the end of the war. I was constantly together with him.
"I knew that he had to take a treatment at Karlsbad, on doctor's orders in the Spring of 1943; when he wanted to start on his journey to Karlsbad, he informed me about it, and requested me to accompany him, in order to undertake a personnel inspection at the SS-station Karlsbad and at the SS-hospital at Prague, on this occasion. I agreed, and went to Karlsbad, together with Dr. Genzken, in his staff car, approximately in the last days of April or in the beginning of May. Dr. Genzken got out there, while I carried on my official duties in Karlsbad and Prague, and then returned to Berlin by Dr. Genzken's car. I know that Dr. Genzken remained in Karlsbad for four weeks to take his treatment, and returned to Berlin towards the end of May, or probably only at the beginning of June. Owing to the strenuous treatment at Karlsbad, Dr. Genzken was not entirely fit for work during the first time after his return to Berlin.
"In my opinion, it is therefore absolutely impossible, that he took part in the Eastern Congress of Medical Officers in the Military Medical Academy in Berlin, from 24 to 26 May 1943."
That is the end of my quotation. And, it should be indicated in connection with the testimony of tho defendant, it should have been proven sufficiently, at that time he had not hoard the report of Professor Buchner respectively of Dr. Gebhardt.
Q Witness, do you know anything about the fact that gas gangrene and streptococcus was furnished at Ravensbruck for the sulfamilamide experiment?
A No.
Q When did you find out about that?
A I heard that in the course of a preliminary interrogation.
Q Where did this preliminary interrogation take place?
A Here in Nurnberg.
Q Witness, please make a short pause between my question and your answer. When did you hear about the origin of the cultures which were used in the experiments at Ravensbruck?
A I only heard that from tho documents here.
Q Do you know that those used at Ravensbruck are alleged to have been furnished by tho Hygienic Institute of the Waffen-SS?
A No, I never heard that.
Q Did you, as Chief of the Medical Office, receive any report from the Hygienic Institute or any other information about that?
A No, I never received that.
Q Why not?
A The Hygienic Institute of the Waffen-SS was the only Hygienic Institute in the homeland, and it was not only available for assignments by the Waffen-SS but also for the many remaining formations and units of the SS. It was also at the disposal of the Reich Physician SS for his tasks in the field of scientific research. In line with his authority to issue instructions, he could issue orders to the Hygienic Institute and he could also issue secret reports, and by virtue he was then able to say what persons could obtain knowledge of them; however, my person was excluded from that.
Q Did the Reich Physician SS Grawitz tell you anything about those experiments?
A No, as I have already stated on Friday, he excluded me from all his experiments and he did not give me any information about them whatsoever.
Q Did not the co-defendant, Professor Dr. Gebhardt discuss the subject with you?
A No, he has never discussed it with me. And I have heard of these experiments like everybody else, in the public and during tho course of the report of Fischer's.
Q And, just why did Professor Gebhardt fail to tell you anything about it?
A I do not know.
Q Do you know of any correspondence with regard to sulfamilamide experiments, and did you ever see any, officially or unofficially?
A No.
Q The information which you just gave to us, where did you obtain this? Did you give this information voluntarily at the time of your interrogation or did the Prosecution ask you for that at the time of your interrogation?
A I was asked what I knew about such experiments, and then I made the statement voluntarily, which I have just repeated.
Q I am now comming to paragraph 6-J, the Typhus experiment. Witness, as I have already stated, scientific research and management was not within your field of tasks; that it was that of Reich Physician Grawitz. Did this also include Typhus research and the manufacture of a new vaccine against Typhus?
A Yes.
Q According to your knowledge, what was the reason for manufacturing your own vaccine?
A It has already been mentioned here during the course of the trial, in the year 1941, at the front in tho East, and also in the occupied territories and even already within Germany there was a great danger of typhus epidemics.
At the time there was very little vaccine in order to combat typhus because the manufacturing from the intestines of lice wan very difficult, and that was the reason.
Q. Now, who decided and who gave he orders about the typhus research and the manufacture of a new vaccine?
A. It was within the field and the competence of the Reich Physician-SS who as the eldest Hygienic inspector, cansulted Professor Mrugowsky, and in any case, he did not give me any orders in this connection, and I have not received such an order from *** other side.
Q. What orders did Grawitz give? Do you know anything about that?
A. By virtue of his authority he ordered Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Ding to establish an institute to carry out research on Typhus and in order manufacture vaccine. And, for this purpose he furnished the concentration Camp Buchenwald, and the use of prisoners who, by order of Himmler, and with the agreement of the inspector of the Concentration Camp, they had been furnished.
Q. Well, when did you first obtain knowledge of this plan?
A. I cannot give the exact period of time, but I assume that I heard about the plan either in the course of the appointment of Dr. Ding on *** tr*** to this command at Buchenwald, or somewhat later as a result of his sickness, and according to the affidavit which has been presented here, he, himself, was infected with typhus during the experiments, and I am quite sure that was reported to me.
Q. And, who reported the sickness of Dr. Ding to you?
A. I assume that the SS hospital at *er in made the first report to my agency.
Q. Well, were you not **** by the Reich Physician-SS in connection with these experiments and executions?
A. No. I was not called to any meeting or discussion in line with these experiments. I was not called to a meeting where the xtension and the location of the instituted was concerned and discussed, nor was I consulted about the progress of research, and I was not asked either about the progress which was **** in the manufacture of the vaccine.
And, I was not asked either about the way in which the inmates were used.
Q. Why did Grawitz exclude you from all that?
A. As far as I can look over the whole situation today, I am of the opinion that he considered me a personaingrata, and that he wanted to exclude me from everybody on account of that. And, he knew that Himmler had withdrawn all his confidence from me and I heard from Professor Mrugowsky that he had stated on several occasions that Genzken was not to concern himself with scientific research.
DR. MERKEL: May it please the Tribunal, may I present another document in this connection. It is document Genzken No. 1. It is on p****l of my document book, and I offer it in evidence as Genzken Exhibit No. 3. It is an affidavit of co-defendant Dr. Mrugowsky, and I quote:
"In approximately spring 1943, I believe it was at a conference of Exp****** the Staff of the Chief of the Medical Office of the Waffen SS, a conversation took place among other subject, about the competence of the medical offices of Grawitz and Genzken. During the conversation I mentioned that Grawitz had often told me that he alone was responsible for all matters concerning research and planning of the Medical Section within the SS. Dr. Genzken had nothing to do with it.
Thereupon Dr. Genzken confirmed this statement as Grawitz had also told him about this li*tati**, and underlined that he was only responsible for the medical service for the troops of the Waffen SS, for which Juettner, the chief of the SS Operational Main Office, was responsible in military matters.
"In addition to my affidavit of 17 October 1946, Exhibit No. 282, I make the following statement: In number 4 I testified that Dr. Genzken had ordered the foundation of the department for typhus and virus Research at the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS in Buchenwald Concentration Camp, and appointed Dr. Ding Chief of this Section at the beginning of 1942.
I am certain that this was in 1943 and not in 1942. At the beginning of 1943 Dr. Genzken approved Dr. Ding's proposition to call the place of production of typhus vaccine for the SS: 'Section for typhus and virus Research at the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS.'" And, that is the end of the quotation.
Dr. Mrugowsky's names was mentioned here in paragraph 2, but it has been corrected from what was contained in Prosecution's Exhibit No. 282.
Q Witness, how frequently did you visit the institute in Buchenwald, officially or unofficially?
A I have never entered the institute and I have never seen it. The description and the titles of Block 46 and Block 50 were completely unknown to me until that time and I have only heard of them for the first time here in the Palace of Justice.
Q Why did you fail to visit this Institute at Buchenwald?
A I never felt responsible for this experimental station in Block 46 and I was mainly interested in the results of the manufacturing of the vaccine in Block 50 which as I now know was stepped up in the summer of 1943, and as Dr. Hogan stated in the middle of August, 1943, it began it's production and only in the late fall of 1943 the production of the vaccine really got under way. That was at a time when I was not responsible any more.
Q Why were you not responsible any more at that time?
A The period of time that was at the end of August 1943 was before the period of time before the medical service of the Waffen SS was reorganized with the entire SS and the office of the Reich Physician SS was newly organized according to the location of the clinics, and with that period of time, as I have already stated on Friday, the Hygiene Institute came under the Agency of the Reich Physician SS.
Q Did you from Block 46 receive any written reports about Ding's activities?
A No, I have never received such scientific reports. I have never seen them. They were never submitted to me and I have never read them.
Q But Ding, as can be seen from his diary, submitted many reports. To whom were they addressed?
AAs I have heard here in the course of the trial, these reports, as far as they went, over Professor Mrugowsky, they went directly to the Reich Physician SS so that he could further report to the Reich Fuehrer.
Q Now when were you first informed about this matter by Professor Mrugowsky?
A I cannot give you the exact date and I cannot remember it exactly, but it is possible that this was in the spring of 1943. I remember that he reported to me that the probable result of the production of the vaccine and that it was planned that thrity thousand portions of the vaccine would be available for the troops of the Waffen SS. I can also remember that he told me on this occassion about two further vaccines, one vaccine came from the army and the other came from a civilian firm, and he told me that the vaccine which we had was that of Gebhardt. That it was intended for the Wehrmacht. That is the only information which I can recall.
Q Can you perhaps remember any charts which Professor Mrugowsky showed you on that occasion?
A I cannot remember that Mrugowsky had any documents with him.
Q What did Mrugowsky tell you about the number of experimental subjects, the number of fatalities and the extent of the experimental series?
A He cannot have told me very much in detail and this whole report must have been very short, because the numbers of tho experimental series and fatalities was shown to me for the first time here in the Palace of Justice.
Q Won't you say with that that you would have reacted differently if you had been informed in detail about these matters by Dr. Mrugowsky?
A Yes, I am certain that such big numbers certainly would have remained permanently in my memory. They would have caused a reaction which would have had a very strong effect on me.
Q Did Professor Mrugowsky tell you anything about this intentional injecting of concentration camp prisoners?
A If Mrugowsky had told me anything about the fact that people were purposely injected then this fact would also have become firmly established in my memory so that I would have been aboe to remember it to day.
However, I am unable to remember it.
Q Well, but you did have knowledge that prisoners were used for clinical purposes, or what did you think these people were being used for?
A When I heard about this for the first time and when I thought of the experimental series in order to test the effectiveness and combatibility of the vaccine, and after I also heard from the Reich Physician at the beginning of the War that scientific experimental series were used by two Dutch physicians by the name of Zahn and Sachsenhausen, they were used in research, and similar experimental series were carried out at Dachau in the beginning of the war by a certain Dr. Von Beyer, and I myself during my imprisonment at Neuengamme in 1946, as camp physician, I have also seen that the English used hundreds of us for experimental series. That was in order to test a new vaccine against influenza.
Q Did you ever think as a result of the information which you got from Dr. Mrugowsky that these people were purposely infected?
A No, because I had not received any previous bacteriological training, I did not reach this bacteriological conclusion. I assumed that observations were to be carried out on people who had been vaccinated and these who had not been vaccinated on the occasion of an epide***, and it did not seem astonishing to me that typhus should occur in as big a camp as Buchenwald, and I was thinking that some solution was to be found for that.
Q Did you receive any hygienical preliminary training?
A From 1906 to 1911 I have studied. At that time in the State examination of Hygiene, Bacteriological and Seriological subjects was not required. We only had to give proof of the fact that we had participated in a vaccination training course, and in the course of this training the students had to vaccinate each other. Subsequently, I was unable to carry out any research activities because of the first world war. At the time of the first world war I had interrupted my surgical training and then I was organizationally 15 years active in the Navy Section submarine and later on I was ten years with the Waffen SS and I mainly occupied myself with organizational matters and in the big field of Hygiene, the field of bacteriology and seriology, and in particular the field of the production of a vaccine, represented a specialized field and I was unable to deal with it.
Q Did you make a mistake in the course of your previous interrogations with regard to passive and active immunizations?
A Yes, that is correct, but as I have heard in the meantime, the same thing has happened to other physicians at some time or other.
Q At the third meeting of the consulting physicians in May, 1943, did you hear the report of Mrugowsky?
A No, I did not hear the report because as I have already stated I did not attend this meeting.
Q Is that the same meeting in which Fisher gave his report about sulfonilamides?
A. Yes.
Q Do you know Dr. Ding personally?
A Yes, I made the acquaintance of Dr. Ding at the hospital in Perlin, and during the first half year of the war when I was a divisional medical officer he was my adjutant and during this period of time as a result of the comradeship we became friends, which you can describe as a fatherly, friendly relationship.
Q. You have heard the statements of the witness Kogan about Ding. Is this description sufficient or do you want to add anything to it?
A. Dr. Kogan's ideas are correct in my mind. I believe that a mistake was made in the interpretation.
Q. Yes, that is correct.
A. Ding was a clever ambitious young man. He had a very friendly manner and perhaps on some occasions he was too friendly and he had a tendency to exaggerate. He had lived through a very hard youth. He was an ****** child and had been adopted and had to work through his studies. Out of sympathy for his difficult past I began to take care of him and then this fatherly relationship began to form. However, in this connection I want to point out that it was a relationship of mutual respect. He was twenty-five years or more than twenty-five years younger than I. We have never addressed each other in a familiar manner. In Germany we make a difference between "du" and "Sie" - between thou and you. In any care we never addressed each other in the familiar manner and during his stay at Berlin he was never a guest in my house. If I may say so, I had such a relationship with several SS physicians and I can name several.
Q. I believe, witness, that this will be sufficient. Witness, Kogan testified that Ding wanted to exploit you in your position.
A. Yes, I also gained this feeling after some time. I felt this: Ding was trying to gain through my position and that he wanted to succeed me.
Q. On what was your opinion based?
A. When I read the diary then, the entry of the 9th of January came to my particular attention. That is the entry which is also used as a point in the accusation against me.
Q. Let me interrupt you, witness. This is Document 265. It is Prosecution Exhibit 287. It is on page 41 of the Prosecution Document No. 12.
A. According to this entry I am alleged to have given the order for the change in the title of the institute. In reality, I only gave the approval for that and, as Dr. Kogan has correctly stated, I gave the approval for the re-naming of the institute which was producing vaccines and Ding changed this re-naming in his order and I believe that he was trying to give me the credit for this.