That is the same as with the delousing means wh? the civilian sector was relied upon for eastern territories, for home country and for what we needed. I must say that the civilian sector, the question whether I had vaccine production in my hand, must be clearly denied by me.
Q. All right, let's aplit it up. Did you have complete control over the allocation as between the various branches of the Wehrmacht?
A. Yes. Whoever worked on that had a list where stock and demand could be compared, and according to the size of the branch of the Wehrmacht or, mainly, according to the urgency of the demand, he allocated however he could, if it was possible, to the larger extent of the demand, if not, a little less. I think that Oberstabsarzt Schmidt could tell you more about it than I could, who was actually working in that office.
Q. General, the production and allocation of typhus vaccines as between the military and civilian sectors was a problem which fell squarely within the Fuehrer Decree of July, 1942, wasn't it?
A. I only had to care for my own needs. I had no authority to watch the civilian sector, no duties of allocation. All I had to do was coordinate the Wehrmacht. Dr. Conti was active in the civilian sector.
Q. That's right, and Dr. Brandt was standing between you and Dr. Conti to see that both of you got what you needed insofar as that was possible, wasn't he?
A. Yes. For the personnel and material question, yes. I don't know how the special question of vaccines was treated. I never had any discussions with him about vaccines.
Q. Is it not true that certain German hygienists held the view that the effectiveness of typhus vaccines could not be established in advance through animal experiments because about forty percent of the animals have the power of resistance and will not get sick although artificially infected?
A. I am not informed about that. I cannot tell you that. I don't know from where you get this utterance, but it is something so special that that I couldn't defy in my attitude towards it. I am not aware of the comparison in the number of animals and persons.
Q. Well, you heard Karl Brandt testify from the stand that an his opinion human experiments were necessary in typhus just as in malaria.
Do you remember that?
A. No. I cannot remember that.
Q. Well, what is your opinion in the matter, or do you have one? Do you believe that it is necessary to experiment on human beings as distinguished from animals to determine the effectiveness of typhus vaccines?
A. I can only say the following in that connection: my concern was the practical commitment of an available but not tested vaccine with human beings and with human beings to a large extent. They were to be inoculated with a vaccine, the effect of which was tested to a sufficient extent that we could well say that no harm would be done. With reference to vaccine experiments on human beings which went beyond that, with reference to the necessity of that with reference to the limitation regarding animals in a special case, these are such outspoken technical concepts which as a prerequisite demand a lot of knowledge and which cannot be done away with general phrases where the general medical man could not possibly judge, and I should have to ask you to hear an expert on that question because I am not in a position to give any judgment on that.
Q. Now, General, you admit that an extreme necessity existed to determine the efficiency of the egg yolk vaccine in the winter 1941-'42. You further admit in your own statement here that this chicken egg vaccine was not sufficiently proved.
You go on to say that to provide adequate protection for the combat areas as well as for the Zone of Interior against typhus, it became necessary to clarify the value of this vaccine at the earliest moment, and then you say that it is quite possible that Mrugowsky might have been assigned to carry out these studies.
Q Now just what did you do to establish the effectiveness of this egg yolk vaccine? And I don't want to hear you tell me about compatibility tests. I want to hear about the tests that were carried one to determine the effectiveness of this egg yolk vaccine.
A I have already said that for some -- and I cannot tell you for how long -- and I believe I said that in Oberursel, too, the report came along that this vaccine had been committed and had proved itself to be good and was being produced to a large extent. That was one report. The other fact was that we had decided to free ourselves from vaccines as such and as a substitute resort and concentrate on delousing means.
Q Now let's forget the delousing, General. Let's forget that. The delousing is not in issue here. You haven't yet told me about any experiments that were carried out to determine the effectiveness of this egg yolk vaccine. That experiments were carried out? What did they do? How did they determine that the egg yolk vaccine was or was not effective?
A I didn't establish any effectiveness at all. I merely said that it should be used practically, and this is not an experiment, but it is merely a use as in the case of a drug from which in practice can be seen whether it is effective or whether it is not effective. Beyond that I had no interest at all. I never initiated any experiments nor was I informed about any experiments. Dr. Eyer progressed so much in his production that this in itself was a very positive side of the affair. As for experiments, I knew nothing about them, and this wasn't a question I dealt with.
Q General, you say here that tho purpose --. You say first that it is, therefore, quite possible that in the course of a conference Dr. Mrugowsky might have been assigned to carry on studios about parallel tests, about dosage compatibility and efficiency of this typhus vaccine on human beings.
The purpose was to arrive at a find conclusion whether the vaccine produced by tho Robert Koch Institute was adequately efficient and could be used in the Wehrmacht and in the typhus areas of the Eastern Front with a considerable prospect of success.
I am asking you whether or not is was ever determined whether the egg yolk vaccine was suitable for use by the Wehrmacht. Did you ever arrive at any conclusion on that?
A I would assume from the start that typhus vaccine from chicken eggs was used to a smaller extent. From figures of production from Frankfurt, for instance, it can be seen that they already delivered to to military and civilian sides. There was no large commitment of that vaccine, and I think it actually has happened at sometime and some where.
Something was published about that in tho press, and I think some extensive article appeared at a later date about it. I am quite sure that I and Schreiber, too, had the impression that the question of the effectiveness of the egg yolk vaccine could be assumed as having been confirmed. Whether and how far we were calmed because of that and we were satisfied, I don't know, because it is remarkable that all research work in foreign countries as in the case of France, Russia and Germany always searched for a different vaccine.
That is the reason why the question couldn't have been yet finally concluded but for me it was concluded insofar as within the framework of what was available this vaccine could be used and I didn't want to know anything more than that.
Q. And how again was it determined that this vaccine could be used? How did you arrive at that judgment?
A. Schreiber must have received some kind of material on that or the Army Medical Inspectorate. I only remember that I was told that this vaccine was all right.
Q. And when were you told that?
A. I cannot give you any exact date. Maybe Mr. Schmidt would know that who worked on that question.
Q. Well, it must have been sometime after the first part of 1942, or your statement here about Mrugowsky and the necessity of testing this vaccine is just a lot of jibberish. Don't you have any idea when you decided that it was okay to go ahead with egg yolk vaccine use?
A. Well, I mention it was produced. I mention it was used to an increasing measure. I mention reports came about it from eastern territories where it was used probably. What the extent was I don't know because Otto still writes in 1943 that it hasn't yet been proved to a large scale, but I must again mention delousing, and you can't push me away from that because therein was the new decision to get away from this other procedure. Our institutes, perhaps, could have been bombed and destroyed in Krakow and Lemberg Then we would have been left with nothing. That is why we concentrated on delousing with all our powers because it was more certain than vaccines.
Q. General, wasn't there a commission formed later in 1941 to study this whole typhus vaccine problem?
A. I don't know about that.
Q. You don't know that Conti and Gildemeister. Reiter, Rose, Schreiber and Mrugowsky were on this commission?
A. No.
Q. Who was Bieber, B-i-e-b-e-r?
A. That is a gentleman from the Ministry of the Interior.
Q. What was he doing in the Ministry of the Interior?
A. He was a man - he was a collaborator of Conti.
Q. Did he ever do anything on typhus?
A. I cannot tell you that. I personally never got into contact with Bieber. At the moment I couldn't tell you when I saw him or when I spoke to him. I only know Bieber because of his name which does not exclude the possibility that I met him or spoke to him, but I had no personal or official relations with him.
Q. And you can't tell this Tribunal of any specific instance in which you received a report on the efficiency of the egg yolk vaccine? You know o? no special instance where experiments were made or in which this egg yolk vaccine was tested, is that right?
A. I couldn't tell you anything of that nature at the moment.
Q. All you know is that it was a very important problem at the end of 1941 but somehow the problem seemed to evaporate and you don't know how it was resolved, is that right?
A. No. The problem didn't evaporate. In my opinion, the production of this vaccine was increased. That is why we didn't have to give anything awa?? of the vaccine that belonged to us which in itself helped us essentially. In addition, there was the question of delousing so it certainly didn't evaporate. It progressed systematically and I should like to repeat once more that it is a misunderstanding of my position and my tasks and a misunderstanding of the tasks of my collaborators if you think that I could give you such detailed information. I hope that if, for instance, you put these questions to the expert, Schmidt, who is a hygienist and who worked on these questions, he would be able to help you over this vacuum of evaporation. I only repeat what I have already stated.
Q. Well, so far as you yourself know, you cannot tell this Tribunal ??? the problem of the efficiency of the egg yolk vaccine was solved other than by your explanation about delousing?
A. No doubt by the use.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until one-thirty o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Court Room will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. FLEMMING: Attorney Flemming for Dr. Kaufmann and the defendant Rudolf Brandt. May it please the Tribunal, the defendant Rudolf Brandt requests that he be excused from the Court Room after the recess in due consideration of his physical condition.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the physical condition of defendant Brandt today, Counsel?
DR. FLEMMING: The defendant Rudolf Brandt has recently requested that he be examined by the prison medical officer. The prison medical officer has determined that Rudolf Brandt is in a bad general physical condition; and among other things he has ordered that he be given additional food and also has ordered that he rest. Rudolf Brandt feels very much exhausted by this morning's session and therefore requests that he be excused immediately following the afternoon recess.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has before it no basis upon which to excuse the defendant Rudolf Brandt. The Tribunal will request the prison physician to make another examination of the defendant Brandt after the session today and report to the Tribunal his findings on the matter; but at this time the Tribunal has no justification upon which to excuse the defendant Brandt from attendance. Will the Secretary General request the prison physician to make another examination of defendant Brandt after the close of the session today? The prison physician should report to this Court concerning his findings as to the physical condition of defendant Brandt and give his opinion as to whether or not the defendant Brandt's physical condition is such that he should be excused from attendance upon the trial tomorrow or at any subsequent period.
SIEGFRIED HANDLOSER - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. McHANEY:
Q General, do you remember any specific steps which you took in the latter part of 1941 with respect to the typhus problem?
A In the latter half of 1941? I have already said that the latter half of 1941 would have been the period of time when the cases of typhus began to spread.
Q Did you ever suggest placing the production of typhus vaccines in the hands of the pharmaceutical industry?
A If this was at the very beginning, I cannot say. However, I am of the opinion that, for example, the foundation of the Behring Institute at Lemberg was caused by the necessity of producing more typhus vaccine. I cannot remember exactly; but I can still remember that the question was discussed with regard to the industry. I was thinking first of all of the Behring Works at Marburg and that we should request them to increase their production. That is the only thing I can say on the subject.
Q Well, let's put Document NO-1323 to you, Doctor. This is the letter you wrote to Conti, isn't it, on 6 October, rather than on 10 November 1941?
A Yes, that is quite possible.
MR. McHANEY: The Prosecution offers this as Prosecution Exhibit 452 for identification.
Q Will you please read this letter aloud, General?
A "To the Reich Health Leader, for information of the Reich Minister of the Interior, Berlin, the Government of the Government General, at Krakow, the Reich Health Office. Institute for Typhus and Virus Research, Krakow.
" "Several offices, particularly in the Government General, have apparently experienced an increasing demand for typhus vaccine during the past few months. At any rate the OKH has repeatedly been asked for typhus vaccine. On account of the requirements of the OKH itself, this request could be met only in part. As far as it is possible to judge the development of the epidemic, it is to be expected that the demand will continue to exist in the future. It is therefore suggested to place production of the typhus vaccine in the hands of the large-scale pharmaceutical industry. The army, too, although probably on a smaller scale, would be considered a customer."
Q You'll notice from the attachment that this letter was passed along by Conti to the Robert Koch Institute, wasn't it?
A The Reich Minister of the Interior requested it to be returned by the Robert Koch Institute.
Q That means that it undoubtedly came to the attention of Gildemeister, didn't it?
A Yes, Gildemeister was the president of the Robert Koch Institute.
Q Did this letter in any way refresh your recollection about any meeting in December of '41 with Gildemeister and Reiter concerning typhus vaccines?
A No. That only refreshes my memory to the extent that before I knew of the document I had answered in reply to your question that I could faintly remember -- and I was thinking of the Behring Works first of all -- that the question had arisen that the civilian industry was to be included; and this fact has been confirmed by this document. What Conti did afterwards with this letter was not within my sphere of influence. If it has been assumed that the Robert Koch Institute was the institute and Prof. Gildemeister was the person subordinated to Conti who advised him, then this would be quite an ordinary procedure and then the state secretary in the Reich Ministry of the Interior should pass on such a letter from the OKH to such a subordinate or consulting agency.
Q You don't know what was done concerning your suggestion that the pharmaceutical industry begin production of a typhus vaccine?
Q. You don't know what was done concerning your suggestion that the pharmaceutical industry be in the production of a vaccine, typhus vaccine?
A. Well, I only meant to say that either the production was increased or that the Institute of the Civilian Sector at Lemberg, or of the industry which has already been mentioned, that this was the effect of it. And, as far as I am able to remember, this institute at Lemberg has produced vaccine from the intestines of lice and also the vaccine from chicken egg yolks. Therefore, this is the effect of the request by the OKH.
Q. Where did they get their experience at the Behring Works in Lemberg in the production of Weigl vaccine?
A. I cannot tell you that at the present time. Maybe I am mistaken. Perhaps they have only produced this vaccine from chicken eggs but I stated I thought they were producing both; that in the very beginning produced Weigl vaccine. I cannot say for certain, that is only an assumption on my part. I can only say this on my recollection.
Q. Was Weigl working under Eier at Krakow in the OKH Institute at Lemberg?
A. On the occasion of my visit in the summer of 1941 I have seen him at that institute and I have talked to him and knew that he had been working there for quite a long period of time.
Q. I want to put another document to you, General, NO-1321. This is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 453 for identification. General, this is nothing but a simple little cover letter which makes mention of a meeting conference on the 29 December 1941 concerning typhus. We just have two pages of it - the second and third page. It says up at the top:
"2. )To the State Institute for Experimental Therapy Frankfurt / Main" That was the institute under Geheimrat Otto?
A. That was the institute under Geheimrat Otto.
This does not have a letter head, as we call it.
Q. Now, let's wait just a minute, General, we'll find out what the document is first.
"Inclosed fine copy of notes of a conference which took place here on 29 December 1941. I request you report what quantities of typhus serum can be produced in your institute per month, and will be available for the civilian population. Furthermore, is this vaccine free of charge, or will it be charge and at how much?
"In addition, I would appreciate your cooperation with the Institute for Contagious diseases "Robert Koch' Berlin for the purpose of establishing a test method for typhus vaccine, and submit same to me."
Then we see that a copy of these minutes of this meeting were sent also to the Robert Koch Institute, to the Government General in Krakow, to first the Army Medical Inspectorate, which would be to your office, to the Behring Works of the I. G. Farben, and to Dr. Conti. Now, does this little document by any chance refresh your recollection about the meeting of 29 December 1941?
A. No.
Q. You can see that there apparently was a meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know a man by the name of Oberstabsarzt Dr. Scholtz?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell the Tribunal who Scholtz was.
A. Oberstabsarzt Dr. Scholtz was a collaborator in the Army Medical Inspectorate.
Q. Collaborator on what?
A. He was in the Department for Scientific Health Leadership or he also may have worked in the Organizational Department. However, I cannot say that any more. However, he was dealing with medical matters. I, therefore, assumed that he may have been with the Department for Health Leadership.
Q. Did he have anything to do with typhus, for example?
A. Not expressively. He handled everything connected with health measures and health guidance. He was a medical officer who had received previous training but not in the field of hygiene and he was not a bacteriologist.
Q. I don't suppose you ever had any contact with him?
A. I had the same contact with him as I had to the other fifty medical officers who belonged to the Staff of the Medical Inspectorate.
Q. 50 or 15, I didn't understand you.
A. 50.
Q. Do you know a man by the name of Professor Dr. Kudicke?
A. "Kuleger" - he was professor for surgery at the University of Jena.
Q. K-u-d-i-c-k-e?
A. No, the man I refer to is called. "Kuleger". At the moment I cannot remember the name of Kudicke.
Q. You know a man by the name of Dr. Buurmann, B-u-u-r-m-a-n-n?
A. Buermann, with "E". No. I don't know that - Buermann.
Q. Do you know anyone by the name of Z-a-h-n?
A. No.
Q. Neumann?
A. I know a man by the name of Neumann. He was a high staff physician who later on worked on personnel matters in the Army Medical Inspectorate. He only handled personnel affairs. He had nothing to do with medical matters.
Q. Know anyone by the name of Demnitz?
A. Not within my field. No. Demnitz as a physician may have played a part in literature but not within my field of competence.
Q. You ought to have the defendant Mrugowsky tell you about Demnitz some day. But, in the meantime I am perhaps going to relieve you a little bit and put to you this report of 29 December 1941 because it appears there were two conferences on typhus that day. I have got the minutes of one of them here. I think you will find it interesting if not refresh your memory, about the meeting you took part in. I would like to put to you Document NO-1315. This will be --
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, just a moment. Attached to Document NO-1321, consisting of two pages, was another document of one page, Document NO-1316, was that intended to be attached?
MR. McHANEY: No, sir, it was not. I don't know what 1316 is.
THE PRESIDENT: We will return it to the Secretary General.
MR. McHANEY: Thank you. This will be Prosecution Exhibit 454 for ??? identification. General, I would like to read this aloud so the Tribunal will have it before it.
Dated Berlin, 4 January 1942. Memorandum originating from the Reich Ministry of the Interior signed by Dr. Bieber, you told us about this morning, reads as follows:
"On 29 December 1941 a conference took place at the Reich Ministry of the Interior concerning the development of a typhus vaccine in which, aside from the undersigned, the following took part:
"From the Institute of Infectious Diseases 'Robert Koch': Vice President Dr. Gildemeister.
"From the Governing Body of the Government General: Dr. Kudicke Med. Rat. Dr. Buurmann.
"From the Army Medical Service: Oberstabsarzt Dr. Scholz "From the I. G. Farben Industry, Behring Works Department:
"Director Zahn Neumann Dr. Demnitz ------------"The conference had the following results:
a) A production center is to be erected in the Government General, specifically at Lemberg, which is to develop an anti-typhus vaccine according to the Weigl method. The production center is to be erected and activated by the Behring Works. The Wehrmacht has been asked, and has indicated its willingness, to place Professor Weigl at disposal for training of personnel, equipping of rooms, etc. The governors of the Government General will furnish the necessary buildings and rooms. The Behring Works will secure the necessary equipment and place the required orders for this with the Reich Office for economic Development with a priority certification from the Governor general. Production shall be built up in the shortest possible time so that its capacity will be the equivalent of that of the existing Wehrmacht Institute (Krakau and Lemberg). The vaccine developed is to be primarily at the disposal of the Reich and the Government General.
"b. The vaccine which is presently being produced by the Behring Works from chicken eggs, shall be tested for its effectiveness in an experiment. For this purpose Dr. Demnitz will contact Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Mrugowsky.
"c. If this Behring Works vaccine is proved to be effective the production capacity of the Behring Works in Marburg shall be essentially increased. The Behring Works will address an application to the Reich Ministry of the Interior for a priority certificate for the securing of the required contingents, and place the necessary orders with the Reich Office for Economic Development with this priority certificate.
"d. The production of typhus vaccine at the 'Robert Koch' Institute shall be increased.
"e. Methods for testing typhus vaccine shall be developed which will make state control possible.
"The Behring Works are sending a representative to the Government General on 6 January 1942 so that preparations can be initiated immediately for the production of typhus vaccine according to the Weigl Method.
Signed Bieber Ministerialrat Berlin, 29 December 1941.
General, does this refresh your recollection in any way about a meeting which you attended on the same date.
A. No.
Q. Did your subordinate, Scholz, report to you about this meeting?
A. About this meeting?
Q. Yes.
A. I cannot tell you that any more at this time. After all, the whole procedure was very normal and it does not contain anything in any respect which would have caused my intervention or which would have offered anything in particular aside from the fact that an in crease in the production of vaccine was to be attempted here.
Q. Well, I'd like to point out to you that it shows one very important thing, particularly in Paragraph b and that is that Dr. Mrugowsky, who was not at this meeting, was to be contacted so that he could carry out experiments to determine the effectiveness of the egg yolk vaccine, a problem which you have already admitted to the Tribunal was very important and one in which you were interested. So we see immediately that Gildemeister, for one, a representative from your office and people from the Behring Works agreed that tests would be carried out by Mrugowsky.
A. Gildemeister was not a representative from my office. That is a mistake. Gildemeister was expressly a member of the civilian sector and he may have been the adviser and collaborator of Conti but not of myself.
Q. General, we don't need a long statement on that. You misunderstood what I said. "Gildemeister and a representative of your office" who was Scholz-Oberstabsarzt Scholz. He was there, you remember?
A. At this conference, yes.
Q. So we see something in the nature of backing other than the SS for the experiments to be carried out by Mrugowsky which, as you now know, were carried out at Buchenwald. You didn't koew anything about that?
A. No.
Q. Let me remind you of a few of the earlier entries in the Ding Diary. As early as 6 January 1942 the Diary shows that an experimental series was begun during which 31 persons were immunized with the Weigl vaccine from your institute at Krakow; 35 persons with vaccine made by the Process Cox, Gildemeister and Haagen; 35 persons with the vaccine "Behring Normal" made of course by the Behring Works at Marburg; and 34 other persons with another Behring vaccine. How do you explain that Ding by 6 January has Weigl vaccine from your institute at Krakow, the egg vaccine produced by the Behring Works and a similar vaccine and an infection material from the Robert Koch Institute unless that meeting between you, Conti, Gildemeister and Mrugowsky took place?
A. That can be explained very simply. With regard to the Weigl vaccine, I can only repeat once more that the Weigl vaccine was distributed to a large number of places as soon as the institute Krakow was established in 1939; that, for example, the Main Medical Depot of the SS was furnished with it; that, in my opinion, it was also stated in this letter that it has been previously furnished to various places and, as a result of this, it was not very difficult to obtain this Weigl vaccine.
Q. Do you know anything about a decree of 5 January 1942 concerning typhus?
A. No, it is impossible for me to know that although I would like to tell you very much. I cannot state that to you.
Q. Did there come a time when you issued instructions that typhus vaccine was no longer to be issued to the various individual branches of the Wehrmacht but only to you as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service or to your main medical supply office?
A. I believe that I have already previously mentioned that distribution was with the Army Medical Inspectorate and that afterwards I took over the distribution as Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service.
Q. Well, just for the record, let's put in Document NO. 1318. This will be Prosecution Exhibit 455 for identification.
This is a letter from -- the signature is noted as illegible. It's from Robert Koch Institute to the Reich Minister of the Interior. It's dated 21 January 1943:
"Re: Typhus vaccine for the Wehrmacht Decree of 31 December 1942.
"The Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service, approached with a letter of 11 January 1945 -- copy enclosed -- to the Government and industrial factories for typhus vaccine, with the request in future no longer to supply this vaccine to the various individual branches of the Wehrmacht, etc., but only to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service or his deputy, the Main Medical Supply Office. There are no objections to this order as far as the Robert Koch Institute is concerned.
"Furthermore, information is requested as to the possible maximum output if typhus vaccine, what increase of production can be achieved by what date, and what quantities can be made available to the Wehrmacht and affiliated formations. A copy of the reply which I sent to the chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service to his request is also attached. The estimate, for 1943 anticipated, of the output of typhus vaccine has been made along very conservative lines; the stated quantity of 24 liters per months may be exceeded considerably."
Now, General, didn't you also exercise some control over the production of typhus vaccine as distinguished from the allocation of typhus vaccine?
A. It may be that such a question was asked by me or one of the people on my staff in order to be informed as to the extent. That is quite possible and I cannot say anything more about it at the moment.
Q. Well, you will recall that in Document No. 1031, Prosecution Exhibit 308 - it was a memorandum concerning a spotted fever research order by Kent to Dr. Haagen and it stated "also a copy to the Science and Research Group of the Military Medical Academy". No, that is of the Luftwaffe. Paragraph 2 reads: "A decision as to the establishment of a vaccine manufacturing plant cannot yet be made because the Chief of the Medical Service of the Wehrmacht, who alone is competent to decide about the procurement of vaccines, has not yet take a stand in the matter." Doesn't that rather indicate that you had some control over production of typhus vaccines?
