Simultaneously with the rigor a severe difficulty in breathing set in with or without narcosis. It was reported that, so to speak, an iron ring was placed about the chest. Objectively, already at the beginning of this breathing difficulty, a narked dilatation of the nostril occurred. The expiration was prolonged and visibly difficult. This difficulty passed over into a rattling; and snoring breathing However the breathing at this point was not especially deep as in Kussmaul's breathing nor were any CheyneStokes breathing or Biot's breathing to be observed. Not in all subjects, but in a great number, a simultaneous hindering during this breathing through very profuse secretion of mucous could be established. Under these conditions sometimes a white, fine-bubbled foam appeared at the mouth which reminded one of an incipient lung edema. Though it was not possible to determine this symptom with certainty by clinical auscultation; only a sharpened unclean breath sound was audible. This foam night occur early, that is, at rectal temperatures of 32° C to 35° C. No special significance was to be attributed to this regarding the outcome of the experiment, which is the opposite of the described relaxation of rigor. The rate of breathing increased at the beginning of the experiment, but after about 20 minutes it decreased to something like 24 per minute with slight variations.
" In general a definite dulling of consciousness occurred at the dropping of the body temperature to 31 degress Centigrade rectal temperature, Next, the subjects still responded to speech but finally answered very sleepily. The pupils dilated markedly. The contraction under light become increasingly weaker. The gaze was directed overhead with a compulsive fixation. After withdrawal from the water an increase in the reflexes was evident in spite of the rigar, and regularly a very marked drawing up of the testicles occurred which practically disappeared into the abdomen. Early in the experiment the face was pale. After 40 to 50 minutes cyanosis appeared. With this the face appeared redder, the mocous membrane bluish-red.
The skin veins were not maximally collapsed and wore virtually always penetrable " The heart activity showed a constant change independent of all other individual variations, which was noticeable in all subjects.
Upon introduction into the water with narcotized subjects as well as non-narcotized subjects, the heart rate went suddenly to about 120 per minute. At a rectal body temperature of about 34 degress Centigrade, it then began to become increasingly slower and to sink continuously to about 30 per minute.
" The bradycardia at a body temperature of about 29 to 30 degrees Centigrade changed suddenly to an arrythmia perpetuator, as the case may be, to a total irregularity, and this be an with a slow form of about 50 beats per minute; this slow form of irregularity could be transformed into a faster one, The transformation to the faster form was not an unfavorable sign regarding life.
" When an electrocariographic control after the experiment was possible, it regularly showed a Vorhofflotter. Let it be anticipated that this irregularity could continue to exist after the cessation of the cooling and a recovery of the body temperature to 33 or 34 degrees Centigrade one and a half to two hours after removal from the water, but then customarily changed of itself and without therapeutic aids into a coordinated heart activity. In the same way, let it be anticipated that in all cases with a lethal termination, a sudden cessation of the heart beat ensued upon an irregularity of the slow type.
" A check of the blood pressure was attempted, but was in no case satisfactory since an exact measurement was not possible in the decisive stage of the experiment because of the severe rigor and muscle febrillation.
" Reference has already been made to individual differences in the behavior of the rectal temperatures. Figure 4 fives an example which includes four experiments, in which four different experimental subjects were cooled at identical water temperatures and with identical clothing. It was shown that in water at 4.5 degress Centigrade temperature the time required for reaching a rectal temperature of about 29.5 degrees Centigrade varies between 70 and 90 minutes. But nevertheless the diagram shows that in spite of those individual differences, it is observable that the progress or the rectal temperature proceeds according to rule. The body temperature begins to sink mere rapidly from about 33 degress Centigrade."
I'll skip the next paragraph, and on page 39, the middle of the page, it state:
" in our experimental series, the lowest rectal temperatures which could be survived varied individually just as did the progress of the temperature drop. In general, ( in six cases) death occurred with a drop in temperature to values between 24.2 and 25.7 degrees Centigrade. In one case, however, a drop to 23.2 degrees Centigrade was survived. This experiment fell outside the typical picture insofar as after 90 minutes at 26.6 decrees Centigrade a virtually stationary condition of the rectal temperature had become established for 85 minutes. We will come back again to this special experiment.
Then I shall skip to page 40 at the bottom of the page :
" In order to follow up the effect of isolate cooling of the neck and back of the head on consciousness, body temperature and circulation, this was undertaken in three special experiments. The experimental subject lay horizontal; the bake of the head the neck were dipped into a receptacle through which water of corresponding temperature was continuously run. In an experiment of three hours' duration there occurred small temperature drops of not more than 0.8 degrees Contigrade. The water temperature was 1 to 2 degrees Centigrade. In one case after 50 minutes a marked, sleepiness occurred which Changed over into a deep narcosis.
The heat activity was variable, and obvious bradycardia could not be observed. Irregularity never developed. Changes were not seen in the electrocardiograph. On the other hand, in all three subjects the spinal fluid pressure was markedly increased after the ending of the experiment to maximal values of 300 mm. After the experiment, ataxia and definite Romberg phenomena were observed, as well as an exaggeration of the normal reflexes; pathological reflexes were absent."
The next section, IV, deals with blood, spinal fluid, and urine during freezing, and I shall not take those up here.
Section V also deals with recovery after cooling and its dependence upon physio-therapeutic measures.
Section VI on page 50 I think perhaps I should read, since its title is " Death after Cooling in Water; Practical and Theoretical Considerations:"
" Reports to the effect that those who have been rescued at sea are imperilled for a considerable time after rescue have aroused special attention. It has been reported especially that sudden cases of death occurred as much as twenty minutes to ninety minutes after rescue, and that in mass catastophies these sudden deaths could amount to mass dying (rescue collapse). These observations have set off far-reaching discussions. Bleeding in the re-warming periphery, breakdowns of neral and humoral correlations and similar ideas have been brought up.
" In contrast to this, our experiments give all relatively simple explanation of cold-death under these condition. With the exception of a single case, a total irregularity of the heart chamber could be definitely demonstrated in all cases of cooling under 30 degrees Centigrade (50 experiments), when to rectal temperature reached 29 degrees Centigrade and usually already at a cooling of 31 degrees Centigrade. The exception was an experiment on an intoxicated subject, which is to be gone into more fully below.
" Furthermore, a heart-death was established clinically in all cases of death observed by us. In two cases breathing ceased simultaneously with the heart activity. These were cases in which it was specially noted that the neck and the back of the head lay deep in the water. In all remaining cases breathing outlasted the clinical chamber-cessation by as much as twenty minutes.
In part this was 'normal, much-decelerated breathing', in part an angonal form of gasping. As already referred to, a Vorhofflutter could be demonstrated, cardiographically during the irregularity.
" In cases in which a special cooling of neck and back of head had existed before death, the autopsy showed a marked brain edema, a tight filling of the general brain cavity ( Hirngefaesse), blood in the spinal fluid as well as blood, in the Michaelisrhomboid ( Rautengrube) " The heart findings warrant our taking a certain attitude toward the question of rescue collapse.
As Figure 5 shows, death occurred relatively quickly after removal from the water, which may be compared with rescue. The longest interval involved, was fourteen minutes. It is to be noted, however, in the first place, that almost certainly a much larger number of death would have been observed if an active heat therapy had not almost regularly been coupled directly with the completion of the experiment; in the second place, that in such cases there would have been very much longer intervals. We have already called attention repeatedly to the after-cooling following the experiment. In every case, where this had proceeded to a certain point, countermeasures were taken, since the experiments were never planned to end in death. One may will imagine, however, that in mass catstrophes, in which almost exclusively rescue collapse has heretofore been described, the therapeutic measures were confined to an undressing and drying off of the rescued, together wit a subsequent wrapping in covers. Under these conditions, afterdrops of great magnitude and long duration were to be expected. In the course of this delayed fall in temperature a heart death might occur as in our experiments.
" We should like to emphasize that the irregularity per se is not to be regarded in our experiments as a symptom of danger to life any more than in the clinic, but rather, as a sign of direct heart damage, which increases continuously with further falling off of temperature, until finally the heart fails. If the temperature drop is arrested, the slow form of irregularity passes over into a rapid form. This transition is a favorable sign for survival; for this irregularity virtually always passes over of itself after a time averaging ninety minutes into normal heart activity.
It continues therefore for a long tine after the body temperature has already risen markedly. A danger to the circulatory system could not be demonstrated at this stage. In three cases the return of the hear action to normal occurred in spite of simultaneous energetic physical work."
The report continues by making scientific observations about death resulting from cold. It also discusses comparative results they obtained with these obtained in animal experimentation. I would call your attention to some of the language on the top of Page 55 where it states:
"The idea that cold-death in water depends upon failure of the heart, accompanied or unaccompanied by breathing, is subject to limitation. Ones experiment among fifty-seven was typical". I just wanted to point out the words "fifty-seven" so that the Court may gain some idea of the extent of these experiments.
Part VII on Page 57 deals with the influence of pharmacology and the question of alcohol which I think we may omit reading here.
Part VIII on Page 61 deals with preventive measures. They tested the effect of various types of protective clothing including a so-called "foam suit" which is something I imagine your Honors are familiar with. It is a type of chemical that generates heat when it becomes wet.
Part IX is concerning life jackets in which they make certain recomendations about improving the design of life jackets in order that they may increase the buoyancy and protect the back of the head and neck.
I think I might read Part X which is a Summary, on Page 69:
"1. The curve of rectal temperature of human beings chilled in water of 2°C to 12°C shows a gradual drop to about 55°C, after which the droop becomes rapid. Death may occur at rectal temperature below 30°C.
"2. Death results from heart-failure. The direct damage to the heart becomes evident from the total irregularity observed in all cases, getting in at approximately 30°C. This cardiac damage is due to overloading of the heart, caused by the marked and regular increase in the viscosity of the blood, as well as by the marked throttling of large peripheral vascular areas; besides, a direct injury to the heart by the cold, is also probable.
"3. If the neck is also chilled, the lowering of the temperature is more rapid... This is due to interference with the temperature-regulating and vascular centers; several edema also makes its appearance.
"4. The blood sugar rises as the temperature falls, and the blood sugar does not drop again as long as the body temperature continues to fall.
This fact suggests an intermeliary disturbance of metabolism.
"5. Respiration of the chilled subject is rendered difficult due to the rigor of the respiratory musculature.
"6. After removal from the water the body temperature may continue to fall for 15 minutes or longer. This may be an explanation of deaths which occur after successful rescue form the sea.
"7. Intensive rewarning never injures the severely chilled person.
"8. Strophantin treatment was not observed to have been successful. The question of the used of strophantin remains open, however. Remedies which influence the peripheral circulation are definitely lot advisable.
"9, The most effective therapeutic measure is rapid and intensive heat treatment, best applied by immersion in a hot bath.
"10. By means of special protective clothing, the survival time after immersion in cold water could be extended to double the survival time of subjects who were immersed without protective clothing.
"11. Certain proposals for improvement of life-jackets are being made .
"Conclueded on 10 October 1942.
Signed, Prof. Dr. Holzloehner Dr. Rascher Dr. Finke".I would like to call the Court's attention to several of the appendices which are attached to the original German document.
You may perhaps have to refer to them in order to get a clear picture of what is shown. For example, Figure 2... I think you might probably have some difficulty finding it there new, your Honors. You nay probably wish to refer to it in your office The point I wanted to make is that on Figure 2 of the Appendices it shows the temperature, pulse and respiration at death, and Figure 5 is a very interesting document which gives in a chart form the experiment number, the water temperature, the body temperature on removal from water, the body temperature at death, the time in water and the time of death. There are seven such cases given. Surely this is the shortest and most succinct report of murders in the history of criminology.
If the Tribunal please, you will note that the next two documents appearing in the document book are pictures numbered Document no-855. These pictures will not be introduced this afternoon because we will call one Mr. George Tauber to the stand tomorrow.
THE PRESIDENT: What page are they on ?
MR. McHANEY: Between Pages 76 and 77. They're little photostatic copies.
THE PRESIDENT: The document number is what ?
MR.McHANEY: Number 855. It is in the upper left hand corner. We will have to authenticate and have these documents admitted through the testimony of Goerge Tauber tomorrow. He was it will be revealed, an inmate at Dachau and had an opportunity to draw these pictures.
The next document will be 1609-PS which is Prosecution Exhibit 92. It is letter from Heinrich Himmler to Rascher dated 24 October 1942:
"Dear Rascher:
"I acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 9th and 10th and both correspondences of 16 October 1942.
"I have read your great regarding cooling experiments on humans with great interest. SS-Major Sievers should arrange the possibility of evaluation at Institutes which are connected with us.
"I regard those people as high and national traitors who, still today, reject these experiments on humans, and would instead let sturdy German soldier die as a result of these cooling methods. I shall not hesitate to report these men to the Offices concerned. I empower you to make my opinion, on this, know to the concerned offices.
"I invite you to a personal conference in November as I can not make it sooner despite my great interest.
"SS-Lt.Gen.Wolff will once again get in touch with General Field Marshall Milch. You are empowered to make a report to the General Field Marshall Milch and, of course, to the Reichs Marshall of those who are not doctors.
"I think that covers, which have heat packets or something similar sewed in their linings, are the best for the warning to those who were stranded at sea and were picked up in boats or snail vessels and where there is no possibility of placing these chilled people in a hot bath.
I take it for granted that you know of these heat packets which we also have in the SS and which were used by the Russians a great deal. They consist of a mass which develops a warmth of 70 to 80° upon addition of water and retains it for hours.
"I am very curious as to the experiments with body warmth. I personally take it that those experiments will probably bring the best and lasting result naturally, I could be mistaken.
"Keep me informed on the following findings. Of course we will see each other in November.
Your (signed) H. HIMMLER" The second copy was sent to Karl Wolff with a request for acknowledgment and return since the Reich Fuehrer SS Munich wants these copies again."
Sigend Brandt - that is, the defendant Rudolf Brandt.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 12 December 1946 at 0930 hours).
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al., defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 12 December 1946, 0930-1630, Justice Beals, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The honorable Judges of Military Tribunal k. Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United Status of America and this honorable Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the Marshal ascertain if the defendants are all present.
THE MARSHAL: May it please four Honor, all defendants are present in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of the defendants.
The prosecution will proceed.
MR. MCHANEY: May it please the Tribunal, I will ask that the witness Wolfgang Lutz be called to the stand.
WOLFGANG LUTZ, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Judge Sebring will administer the oath to the witness.
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q. Hold up your right hand and repeat the oath after me.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Your name is Wolfgang Lutz?
A. Yes
Q. You are a German national?
A. Yes
Q. You are now a prisoner of war held at Camp Marcus/W. Orr near Salzburg? 266
A. Yes.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. In Linz on the Danau on the 27th of May 1913.
Q. Have you studied medicine?
A. Yes
Q. Where and when?
A. 1913 to '37 in Vienna and Innsbruck.
Q. What branch of medicine have you specialized in?
A. Internal medicine.
Q. Were you a member of the Luftwaffe during the war?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you join?
A. On the 8th of May 1939.
Q. What rank did you attain during the war?
A. At the end I was Stabsarzt.
Q. That is a captain in the United States Army?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you stationed in Munich during the war?
A. Yes
Q. Do you know of a Luftwaffe installation called Bodenstaendige Pruefstelle fuer Hoehenforschung der Luftwaffe in Munich?
A. Institute for aviation medicine, yes.
Q. What was that installation, what did it do?
A. To carry out scientific work in the field of aviation medicine.
Q. Do you know Georg August Weltz?
A. Yes.
Q. What was his relationship to that institute?
A. He was the head of the institute.
Q. Did the name of this institute of which Weltz was the commanding officer later change?
A. The institute resulted from an office for investigating high altitude effects.
To that extent the name was changed.
Q. To what was it. changed?
A. The name first was Research Office for Air Fleet 3 and afterwards Institute for Aviation Medicing, Munich.
Q. And you say that Weltz was the commanding officer of that institute?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you attached to Weltz's institute during the war?
A. Yes.
Q. When and for how long?
A. I came to Weltz in February 1940 and remained there until the end of the war.
Q. Did you do any high altitude research there?
A. Yes.
Q. With whom did you work in this high altitude research?
A. Primarily alone.
Q. Did you ever work with a scientist at the Weltz institute by the name of Wendt?
A. Yes. I wrote a scientific treatise with him, together with him.
Q. Were you considered to be something of an expert in high altitude research?
A. Yes, I understand the question. I believe so, yes.
A. And is the same true of Wendt who collaborated with you on this paper?
A. Not in that form I believe.
A. Do you know Doctor Rascher, witness?
A. Yes.
Q. When and where did you first meet him?
A. At the institute. I believe in the second half of 1941.
Q. And it was the institute of Weltz that you refer to?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Weltz ever offer you the opportunity to do high altitude rescar on human beings in the Dachau concentration camp?
A. Yes, Weltz asked Wendt and me whether we wanted to conduct such experiments.
Q. Did you accept or refuse this offer?
A. Both of us refused.
Q. Why did you refuse?
A. I personally primarily because I did not consider myself robust enough to conduct such experiments.
Q. Did you know that Dr. Rascher was going to make those high altitude experiments in Dachau?
A. It was discussed.
Q. You mean that it was known by various members of WELTZ's Institute that those experiments were going to be carried out by Dr. Rascher?
A. It was discussed in the Institute, whether such experi meats were useful -- wore expedient.
Q. But I asked you if it was known in the Institute that Rascher was going to carry out these experiments.
A. I believe so; yes.
Q. And you state that you refused the offer of WELTZ, to work on human beings in Dachau because you were not ruthless enough; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. I take it that this means that you knew that brutality and ruthlessness would be required to do the work in Dachau?
A. Yes, An experiment involving a certain danger for the experimental subjects, of course, to a certain extent, ruthless, shall I say.
Q. Now witness, do you recall when this offer was made to you by WELTZ?
A. I cannot say exactly.
Q. Did you ever see RUFF, and do you know a man by the name of RUFF, who was the head of the Department for Aviation Medicine in the DVL in Berlin -- Siegfried RUFF?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know a man by the name of Hans Wolfgang ROMBERG
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever see these two non in WELTZ's Institute in Munich?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you describe to the Tribunal the occasion on which you saw these two men there?
A. A short time after we had refused to conduct the experiments, RUFF and ROMBERG appeared at the Institute. WEHDT and I were in WELTZ's room, and WELTZ asked us to leave the room.
Q. Was it unusual for WELTZ to refuse you and WENDT admittance to conferences at the Institute?
A. Yes. That was something unusual.
Q. Do you know what was discussed between WELTZ and RUFF and ROMBERG, on tho occasion of their visit to WELTZ's Institute?
A. No; we were not informed.
Q. Do you know that RUFF and ROMBERG later worked in Dachau on these high altitude experiments with Dr. Rascher?
A. We know that; yes.
Q. Now I will ask you, witness, if you attended a certain conference on Aviation Medicine hold in the city of Nurnberg on the 26th and 27th of October, 1942?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember, on the occasion of that meeting, that a paper was read by a man by the name of HOLZLOEHNER?
A. HOLZLOEHNER -- yes, I remember that.
Q. And what was the subject of the paper which HOLZLOEHNER read?
A. The subject of the paper was experiments -- rather, experiences -- made on people whose body temperature had been greatly reduced by putting them in cold water.
Q. It was made clear at this conference by HOLZLOEHNER that experiments to study the effects of freezing had been made on living human beings?
A. Not the effects of freezing, but of general cooling.
Q. Did Rascher also have something to say at this meeting?
A. HOLZLOEHNER's report did not indicate that the experiments had been conducted on concentration camp inmates, and Rascher then rose and uttered a few sentences which indicated that the experiments had been instigated at tho special suggestion of Himmler.
Q And what did the statement that these experiments had been made with the support of the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler, mean to you?
A. That is difficult to say, I believe that those present, on the whole, were quite impressed by this information.
Q. I will ask you if it was not understood at this meeting that these experiments had, in fact, been conducted on concentration camp inmates?
A. I cannot judge that with great certainty, but I believe that must have been clear for most of them.
Q. Was it not also made clear, by the talks of HOLZLOEHN and Rascher, that a number of the experimental subjects had been killed during the course of these experiments?
A. One could at least assume that had been the case because HOLZLOEHNER mentioned certain observations of heart failure among the experimental subjects.
Q. Wasn't an important part of tho clinical picture given to you and the rest of the meeting by HOLZLOEHNER, concerned with the causes of death from cold?
A. I cannot recall that.
Q. But you do state that it could have been easily assumed that people have died during the course of these experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, witness, I will ask you if, at a time after this meeting, you had a discussion with a certain army officer, concerning the freezing experiments in Dachau?
A. Yes.
Q. And what did this army officer tell you?
A. The man visited no at our Institute in Munich, and we discussed some results of animal experiments which I had conducted, and ho told no that it must be similar, or that it was similar with human beings. When I asked him how he know that, he told me that he had been in Dachau and that Rascher had demonstrated some experiments during that visit and had shown him what freezing to death looked like in human beings.
Q. In other words, it had been demonstrated to this army officer at Dachau, how people died from cold?
A. That was the impression that I had; yes.
Q. Do you remember the name of this army officer?
A. No.
Q. Now, witness, I will ask you if you have had a discussion with Becker-Freyseng since the end of the war, concerning the high altitude experiments in Dachau?
A. No.
Q. Did you not on one occasion see Becker-Freyseng in a prisoner of war camp?
A. I met him in Eibling, yes.
Q. And, die he tell you that Erhardt Milch knew all about the High Altitude Experiments conducted by Doctor Rascher in Dachau?
A. Becker-Freyseng told me that the Medical Inspectorate, that is, his office, in dealing with concentration camp experiments was by passed; and that the Medical Inspectorate frequently had to try to prevent disaster.
Q. Did not Becker-Freyseng tell you that Erhardt Milch knew about the High Altitude Experiments at Dachau?
A. I cannot remember that exactly.
Q. Did he say anything about Erhardt Milch?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did he say?
A. That Milch had negotiated directly with Himmler regarding the execution of such experiments without consulting the Medical Inspectorate.
Q. I will ask your witness whether or not High Altitude problems are a matter which concerns a department for the Aviation Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe. That is an aviation medicine problem, is it not?
A. The High Altitude Experiments, yes, certainly.
Q. Is the same thing true of freezing problems?
A. Yes, certainly.
MR. MCHANEY: I have no further questions at this time, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The defense may cross examine the witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. WILLE:Gentlemen of the Tribunal, may I request, in connection with this cross examination, that I may put a few questions to this witness within the frame work of the subject which has been opened up by the prosecution against Professor Weltz.
Q. Witness, Doctor Lutz, may I ask you to answer a few questions of mine which I would like to put in order to supplement and contradict the statements of the prosecution. Please answer these questions truthfully -- a few questions of a more personal nature. You were not only a collaborator of Professor Weltz in his Institute for Aviation Medicine, but also at the same time an assistant medical officer with him on certain occasions. You have assisted him in his x-ray activities in Munich, have you not?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. May I now put this question to you. In connection with Professor Weltz's views about the medical profession, can you judge it generally? I mean to say, for instance, this: Are you aware of Professor Weltz's general attitude in respect to his profession: his spirit of humanitarianism? the consideration which he generally showed his patients? can you briefly deal with that. In other words, his general human ideas. Did you have any contact with him when you worked for Professor Weltz?
A. Yes, certainly.
MR. MCHANEY: May it please the court, I cannot see that this question is material, and I would like to raise an objection to it. Whether or not Doctor Weltz exhibited a humanitarian attitude toward his patients has absolutely nothing to do with this case, and I submit the answer of this witness will not be material to the case.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection will be overruled. The counsel may proceed.
Q. Tell me what reputation Professor Weltz had with his colleagues, the other expert doctors in Munich? Let me put it this way, first of all with the doctors of Munich? As an x-ray expert he must have had his cases assigned to him from other doctors. In other words, he must have been a man who, day after day, I would almost say, must have been in constant touch with all the doctors in Munich. Do you know how he was judged by them? I do not mean his qualifications as a scientist, but his personal manners? his human qualities and his qualities as an individual or medical officer. Will you answer my question, please?