At that time it was no doubt thanks to Dr. Hoven that this transport didn't actually leave. Dr. Hoven at that time was under the influence of the political circles in the camp. In the Autumn of 1941 an investigation was conducted on all Jews by the camp physician and they were examined. Those that were unfit for labor were sorted out. We didn't know for what purpose this examination was carried through. We may have thought that these people who were unfit for labor would receive lesser tasks to do.
The list of these Jews unfit for work was sent to the political department and, in the spring of 1942, there followed three or four transports and they were sent away. There personal belongings and their teeth were sent back and we were certain that these people went the same way as the others. I learned, from correspondence which I saw later, that we were there concerned with an action which was conducted in Bernburg, and where a certain Dr. Eberl was particularly active.
The murdered persons were later reported by Buchenwald as later having died a natural death. I myself saw copies of these death reports. I think this concerned an amount of six hundred men.
Q. Where all the physical examinations of these Jews made by Dr. Hoven and his assistant, in order to determine their capacity for work?
A. I don't understand your question.
Q. Did Dr. Hoven examine these Jews that were later sent to Bernburg?
A. Yes; all Jews who were in the camp were examined to see whether they were fit for work or not.
Q. And they were examined by Dr. Hoven or his assistants?
A. Yes; they were examined by both of the camp physicians.
Q. And, as a result of these physical examinations, do I understand you to say that lists were made up by Hoven which contained substantially the names of all those who later were sent to Bernburg for extermination?
A. Yes.
Q. In the same instances, witness, didn't Hoven remove the names of some of the inmates from the list if so requested by the illegal camp management?
A. Whenever the leading political circles of the camp expressed any wish of that kind and communicated it to Dr. Hoven, Dr. Hoven usually complied with their wishes.
Q. However, witness, you say that, regardless of the interference with the political prisoners, about six hundred Jews were transferred to Bernburg for extermination; is that correct?
A. Yes 1636
Q. You say that, after they left in some transports for Bernburg, their clothing, personal effects, false teeth and so forth, were returned to Buchenwald; is that right?
A. I don't quite understand your question.
Q. after the inmates were transferred to Bernburg for extermination, their personal effects were returned to Buchenwald?
A. Yes.
Q. Were gold teeth and false limbs included in these effects that were returned to Buchenwald?
A. These personal belongings went to a room and I don't know what happened to them. The gold, I'm sure, was then sent to Berlin.
Q. And you say, witness, that the hospital records show that these Jews died of natural causes in the camp itself?
A. That is the way they were reported to have died.
Q. What was the nationality of the Jews?
A. They were Jews belonging to every nationality; mostly Germans, Austrians and Poles, and there were some Czechs among them too.
Q. How many of these Jews were deathly ill, witness?
A. Most of these prisoners were not in the hospital as sick persons. The last transport contained a total of 15 or 20 people, and you could not say that these people were deathly ill.
Q. Do you know of any cases, witness, of the extermination of inmates suffering with tuberculosis?
A. Yes; in the year of 1941, there was a large scale action. We had received a so-called "invalid" transport from Dauchau, and the camp was full of these people. Then, in about July 1941, an action started which was conducted mostly by Dr. Eisen. Those inmates who, it was concluded, were afflicted with tuberculosis, were accepted for treatment in the hospital whenever they reported for treatment, and then killed by injections of evipan.
Q. Witness, approximately how many were killed with these injections in the tuberculosis action.
A. I cannot give you the exact number, but there were approximately 500 people. 1637
Q. Can you estimate, from your observations, how many of these people were incurably ill from tuberculosis?
A. No doubt the percentage of the tuberculosis-sick was very high in the camp, but the largest amount of these people were only undernourished and, in better living conditions, could have been saved without any doubt.
Q. Witness, this Dr. Eisen, who worked on this extermination of tubercular cases, -- was he a subordinate of Dr. Hoven?
A. As I know, Dr. Hoven at that time was the first camp physician. Dr. Eisen was always the second camp physician.
Q. Witness, going back for a moment, to the transfer of inmates as a result of the work of this commission or delegation from Berlin, the first transport that left in the summer of 1941, will you tell us what was the nationality of the people included in that transport?
A. You mean the first transport?
Q. That's right.
A. At that time there were only Germans. I cannot remember having seen a foreigner among them. We were then not concerned with Jews. We had the impression that a new gas was tried out in that case, and that, for that purpose, persons were selected whom they wanted to eliminate -- mostly social criminals.
Q. Now, witness, did Dr. Hoven ever personally kill any inmates in the hospital barrack?
A. Yes.
Q. In connection with Dr. Hoven's killings, did he kill inmates who were, supposedly, unable to live much longer?
A. Yes.
Q. In what manner did he kill these sick inmates?
A. By way of injections.
Q. Were any of these inmates suffering from an incurable disease?
A. Probably only a small part of them, and I'm sure that most people could have been saved under more favorable conditions.
Q. Were these inmates laborers, mostly suffering from malnutrition and exhaustion?
A. Yes; most of them.
Q. How did Hoven get them, in order to kill them?
A. Either these persons were treated at a hospital for some time, or they reported for treatment, or else they were found in a state of collapse and brought to us.
Q. Then, I take it, witness, that the hospital was in a very crowded condition at that time?
A. The hospital was always overcrowded. The furnishing of the hospital was insufficient, considering the amount of patients we had to treat.
Q. Then, witness, would you say that inmates reported to Hoven for treatment, and instead of administering medical treatment, they were killed?
A. That happened in many cases.
Q. How many, approximately, were killed by Hoven with this procedure?
A. That is hard to say. It is very hard to define an exact number, since this extends over a period of two years. However, you can estimate that a figure of a thousand would not be too low.
Q. What was the nationality of the victims killed by Hoven?
A. Every nationality.
Q. Now, witness, in connection with this procedure, did the illegal camp management have anything to do with this work on the part of Hoven?
A. Certainly. In the year of 1942, there was a violent fight in the camp between the so-called "greens" and "reds"; that is, the criminal, and political inmates. During the course of these fights, Dr. Hoven was influenced by the political inmates, and he had to given them his support. A number of criminal inmates were then eliminated in this manner, and lost their lives. No doubt, it would have been very bad for the time if Dr. Hoven had not supported these political powers in the camp, and I do not believe that the camp would have been in a position to save another 20,000 people, if the criminal inmates would have assumed power at that time.
Q. Now, witness, I don't believe you understood my last question. In connection with Hoven's killing the people who were suffering from exhaustion and malnutrition, did the illegal camp management have any connection with that particular procedure?
A. The illegal management had nothing to do with that.
Q. In other words, witness, the 1,000 or more inmates who were sick and need medical treatment, and who were ready to be killed by Hoven, on the initiative of Hoven, with no requests from the political prisoners or the illegal camp management; is that right?
A. Yes; certainly. The political camp management had no interest in seeing to it that these people should die. In the cases where valuable people were among them, people who were well known, it was always possible to see to it that Dr. Hoven saved them, but there really wasn't a possibility to care for the mass of these human beings.
Q. Now, witness, did Hoven, in connection with this fight between the "reds" and the "greens", ever kill so-called "traitors" at the request of the illegal camp management?
A. By request, is perhaps the wrong expression, but he was so much under the influence of the political powers in the camp, that those persons who were dangerous for the camp, the so-called "spies", had to be eliminated by him.
Q. Did Hoven ever kill inmates by order of the Camp Commander?
A. I assume so.
Q. Did you know a man by the name of Gavrilovitch?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal about the case of Gavrilovitch?
A. Gavrilovitch was a Polish inmate, who came from Auschwitz with a Polish transport, and who said that he was a specialist on typhus. But we saw later that this man was lying, and it would have resulted in a shame for the camp physicians and the other physicians there, if this man was ever used there as a typhus specialist. Dr. Hoven was very bitter about it, and therefore mistreated that man, so that, according to my knowledge, Gavrilovitch died, a short period thereafter.
Q. Now, witness, how many inmates were killed by Hoven, or by order of Hoven, in the camp; that is, including all the incidents were have covered this morning?
A. That is a question which I cannot answer exactly.
Q. Would you say that a moderate figure would be two or three thousand people?
A. It is possible that such a number was actually reached but you must not forget that the death figure could not have been lower even disregarding the activity of Dr. Hoven.
Q. Then, witness, you would say that you could not actually say the number, but it was a vast number of people, killed by Hoven?
A. No doubt the figure was very high.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Any cross-examination of this witness on the part of defense counsel?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. SERVATIUS (Counsel for Defendant Karl Brandt):
Q. Witness, you have stated that the first transport consisted of criminal prisoners which were sent to Bernburg and according to your opinion, or according to the opinion of the camp, the people in this transport were intended for gas experiments. On what did you base this opinion?
A. I have already stated that inmates overheard a conversation of camp leaders who actually watched these die by gas. In addition we made conclusions which were absolutely justified.
Q. Well, you did not establish that experiments were made, only the fact that the died by gas?
A. Certainly, but the selection of the victims led us to arrive at the conclusion that especially people of low mentality were selected and that same sort of an experiment was carried out.
Q. Isn't it possible that these people were just killed because they were criminals and that it was done in a manner in which a mass killing was usually carried out?
A. You have to be very careful in using the word "criminal" in this case because there was no judicial system which provided that a man should be killed in that manner.
No man, not even a criminal person, was legally in that camp. He was only there on the basis of previous convictions.
Q. Were there prisoners there who were so-called "safeguarding custody" prisoners?
A. The so-called people who were in safeguard custody only arrived at the camp at a later period. That was approximately in the year 1943, in the spring of 1943; before that there was not one single criminal prisoner in camp.
Q. But you said that the order came from the Reich Criminal Office in Berlin?
A. Yes. No doubt the admission of the so-called safeguard inmates came from the Reich Criminal Office Berlin.
Q. Witness, do you know a man by the name of Dietzsch?
A. Yes.
Q. What kind of activity did he exercise in the camp?
A. When I came to the hospital, Dietzsch was a clerk. He later became buyer for the needs of the sick and then later, as a clerk, came into the experimental station. Than at the end, until the end of the camp, he became a so-called Cape of the experimental station for the sick.
Q. What did you think about him?
A. Very little.
Q. In what way do you mean that?
A. I thought that he was a man without scruples who was capable of almost anything and lots of brutalities.
Q. Do you know of any visits in the camp of highly placed personalities?
A. The camp was often visited by higher SS leaders; for instance, the leading physician, Dr. Lolling, very often came into the camp. He was the only leading SS Fuehrer I personally saw. The other visitors very often went to Block 50, to this Typhus Institute.
Q. Did you ever see the Defendant Karl Brandt in the camp?
A. No.
Q. You did not see him?
A. Are you sure you are not mistaken?
Q. I do not believe that I have seen him.
A. Now if Dietzsch would say that he had heard that Brandt was there would this statement be correct?
Q. It is possible.
MR. MCHANEY: If the Tribunal please, I object to the question. He is obviously asking the witness to tell whether or not he would believe credibility of Dietzsch is, of course, up the Tribunal and not to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection overruled. Counsel may proceed.
Q. Will you please answer the question? I repeat, Do you think that Dietzsch's statement is credible?
A. It depends on what you ask him.
Q. So you are of the opinion that he is not very credible and he does not like the truth?
A. It is possible that he has number of things about which wants to keep quiet.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further question.
DR. FROESCHMANN, (Counsel for the Defendant VIKTOR BRACK):
Q. Witness, you were speaking at the beginning of your examination secret files; did I understand correctly?
A. Yes.
Q. You were then speaking of the fact that in the summer of 1941 a Commission came from the Reich Criminal Office?
A. I assumed that it came from the Reich Criminal Office.
Q. You assumed that. Now I wanted to ask you whether you ever saw a written order in these secret files on the strength of which the transport which was sent to Bernburg in the summer of 1941 was ordered by any Berlin Office?
A. As I said before, in the summer of 1943, I became the first clerk and only from that period onwards did I have the possibility to look into the files. Later I found correspondence, I think, of the leading physician with this Dr. Eberl and from this correspondence it could be seen, as far as I can remember, that the gassing of these Jews was intended. I copied this correspondence and I kept it in the hospital. I gave it to my Cape, Pusser, the now Vice-President of Thuringia.
Q. And could it be seen from this correspondence that any higher agency in Berlin actually ordered this action?
A. As far as I can remember, yes.
Q. Can you still remember the agency that ordered that?
A. I believe it was correspondence with the leading physician, Dr. Lolling.
Q. Dr. Lolling?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see any correspondence of the Reichsfuehrer-SS?
A. There were certain decrees of the Reichsfuehrer-SS contained in this correspondence but I cannot remember having seen anything with reference to this action.
Q. Does the same held true in the case of the Jewish action, that is, with reference to the Jewish action you found no order where you could see from where the order originated?
A. Do you mean these invalid transports to Bernburg?
Q. Yes.
A. I am sure that this was ordered by a higher agency.
Q. But you did not see an order?
A. I can not now exactly remember this correspondence but it could clearly be seen that this action was planned and ordered.
Q. But I was interested in what agency this order originated from and that is something you cannot tell me?
A. No, I can not.
Q. Thank you, I have no further questions.
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the Defendant Hoven):
Q. Witness, do you know Dr. Kogon?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know him well?
A. Yes.
Q. Since when do you know Dr. Kogon?
A. I made his acquaintance in the year 1940 in the camp after he arrived there in the year 1938; ever since then I know him very well and we are friends.
Q. Do you think that he is a credible personality?
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you. I now come to another point. You signed an affidavit for the Prosecution, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. In what language did you sign this affidavit?
A. I saw it in English and in German but I know English sufficiently well
Q. Now will you please answer my question-- in what language did you sign this affidavit?
A. English.
Q. Is English your mother language?
A. No, German.
Q. Do you know the English language?
A. Sufficiently well in order to understand the affidavit.
Q. Whereupon is your knowledge based?
A. What knowledge do you mean,--of English?
Q. Yes, of the English language.
A. I learned English in school and I later studied it at the University and then I further learned it...
Q. Well, now, tell me how many years did you actually study English at school?
A. Six years.
Q. How many years did you study English at the university?
A. For three years.
MR. McHANEY: Your Honor, I cannot see what pertinence the knowledge the witness has of the English language has to do with this case. The affidavit which he made out has not been submitted to the Tribunal and will, of course, not be. I think we are just wasting time interrogating the witness about his knowledge of the English language and I therefore object to this last examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection overruled.
Q. How long did you study English?
A. For six years.
Q. Until what year?
A. Until my matriculation.
Q. And at the university?
A. For approximately three years.
Q. Until what year?
A. Well, until 1925, and I later read English.
Q. And to what extent did you busy yourself with the English language after that date?
A. I read English literature.
Q. I now present to you this affidavit, in the German language, and I should like to ask you to translate this affidavit for me into English, in order to test your knowledge of the English language.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, this can be found in Document Book 12 in the English language; it is the affidavit of Roemhild.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there a copy of this document book 12 on the Secretary's desk?
DR. GAWLIK: It is on page 54 of the English Document Book No. 12.
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, I do not like to take up time making these objections. I have objected to the materiality of the examination of the witness's knowledge of English but since that is being admitted, I would like to raise objection to this test. The affidavit was signed in English and presented to the witness in English. It is obviously no test of his ability to read and understand the affidavit in English by asking him now to translate out of German into English and if we wanted to call up examples we could do that out of our own translation department.
THE PRESIDENT: It appears to the Tribunal that a fair test of the witness's knowledge of English would be to submit to him the English affidavit and request him to translate it into German.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Do you think you will be able to translate this affidavit into German?
A. It will be difficult for me to translate this into German.
Q. Please confine yourself to answering my question with yes or no. Are you able to translate this affidavit into English?
A. No, not that.
Q. Thank you. Now I am giving you the English text.
JUDGE SEBRING: Counsel, at what page does this appear in the English Document Book and in the Deutsch?
DR. GAWLIK: That is page 54 in the German...I am sorry, page 54 in the English.
THE PRESIDENT: On what page of the German Document Book is this affidavit found?
DR. GAWLIK: Page 57, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will proceed.
THE WITNESS: Shall I start translating?
Q. Yes.
A. Affidavit. I, Ferdinand Roemhild, under oath, depose the following and declare:
On the 11th of April, 1904, --- that is wrong. I was born in 1903. I was born in Frankfurt on the Main, and started national economy at the University, completing my education. I worked at a merchant firm in Frankfurt. Before the year of 1934 I was not active in any political circles. In the year of 1934 I became associated with the German Communistic Party and became engaged within the framework of writing leaflets with reference to the mistreatment of political prisoners.
On the 22nd of March 1935 I was arrested. In November 1935 I was sentenced to three years hard labor on a charge of high treason. I was placed in the prison hospital at Wehlheiden, and on the 2nd of April 1938 I was transferred to the Buchenwald Concentration Camp. From this date on I was classified as a political prisoner and remained an inmate of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp until the liberation of the camp by the Americans in April 1945.
For the first year in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp I performed manual labor. In the summer of 1939 I was assigned to the prisoners' hospital as a clerk.
Q. Will you go on to the next page, to the medical experiments.
A. Medical experiments at the Buchenwald Concentration Camp. At the Buchenwald Concentration Camp medical experiments on typhus and virus took place in Block-46. I received my information on the happenings in Block 46 from various people, who originally worked in my office and were later transferred to Block 46. As far as I can remember the names of some of these people are as follows: Alfred Leikam, Stuttgart, Karl Brauer, Halle, the Capo of Block 46, Arthur Dietzsch. Also I was in my capacity as secretary and clerk in camp hospital and was placed in charge of money belonging to patients located in Block 46. Since I had these personal obligations, I had also to visit Block 46 on various occasions.
Q. Witness, doesn't it mean in German "as the administrator of personal property; due to holding these personal belongings," it says here?
A. Yes, holding these personal belongings. That is all right.
Q. Please continue.
A. Block 46 was established as an experimental station for research on spotted fever and virus, December 1941.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is of the opinion this test has proceeded far enough. It has formed its own opinion concerning the knowledge on the part of the witness as to the English language. We will proceed to something else.
Q. Witness, you stated that the defendant Hoven in the year 1941, that is the spring of 1941, became the first camp physician. I now suggest to you that the defendant Hoven only in July 1942 became the first camp physician.
A. I cannot recollect the exact date when Dr. Hoven became the first camp physician. At any rate I do know during the action prisoner which took place in the summer of 1941 Dr. Hoven had already played the leading part in the hospital. As to the exact date when he did become the first camp physician I couldn't tell you.
Q. In the spring of 1941 there was another person who was first camp physician?
A. It is possible. I cannot recollect.
Q. If you could tell me the person.
A. Yes, I forgot, Dr. Blanke was physician after Dr. Popitsch. I forgot him.
Q. Is it correct the defendant Hoven only in July 1942 became the first camp physician?
A. I cannot give you the exact date. I cannot tell you exactly when Dr. Blanke was transferred.
Q. Is it possible the date of July 1942 is correct?
A. It could be. I cannot say so exactly.
Q. But you would admit a possibility, wouldn't you?
A. Well, I do know that a camp physician was then -- so that a camp physician --it is possible.
Q. Do you know that Dr. Hoven was at first the Standortarzt physician and had nothing to do with the camp?
A. That is not quite correct. Later the camp physician and Standort physician were amalgamated.
Q. That is correct, But I just want to suggest to you that the activity of the Standort physician has nothing to do with the camp?
A. Yes, that is perfectly correct.
Q. What were the tasks of the Standort physician?
A. The Standort Physician had to look after the SS and had to exercise a certain control function over the camp physician. At tines when the camp physician wasn't available-
Q. That doesn't interest me. I Want to know the pure activity of the Standort physician.
A. I don't know exactly what the Standort really did. At any rate he had to administer to a large circle of people, even outside the camp.
Q. I now come to the selection of the subject for the typhus experiments. In this connection I am going to put to you the testimony of Dr. Hogan, who said something entirely different than you did. On this page 197 of the German record, the witness Dr. Hogan stated that the selection of the experimental subjects did not agree at various times and he said there were four different methods.
The first one, that is during the early period, there were voluntary subjects. These were the first two experiments. Secondly, Dr. Ding asked the camp physician or the S.S. camp administration, to put persons at his disposal for the experiments. That is camp physician and S.S. administration. The third method was that the Reich criminal police office was taking charge of it, and during the last experiments from various concentration camps and prisons in Germany transports were sent to Buchenwald.
Q. I am now asking you, is this description of the Fitness Hogan correct?
A. Certainly Dr. Hogan must know much more about these things than I, since for years he was Dr. Ding's secretary and as such was informed about these methods.
Q. Well, I was speaking about the first two experiments.
A. Yes.
Q. And if I understand you correctly, Fitness, you said that Dr. Hogan, as secretary of Dr. Ding, has more knowledge about this matter, about the selection of the experimental subject; is that correct?
A. Yes, no doubt.
Q. And then I further understood you to say as far as this testimony differs from the testimony of Dr. Hogan, you who really did not have the same knowledge as Dr. Hogan since you were not in Block 46, were erroneous and you would prefer to believe the statement of Dr. Hogan?
A. That only could refer to facts of Block 46, but I really know Dr. Hoven better than Dr. Hogan; then since Dr. Hoven come the activity was in our block. With reference to typhus experiments Dr. Hogan knows more about them than I do.
Q. Witness, do you further know that Dr. Hoven, if he would concern himself with the selection of experimental subjects for the experiment, he did so at the express command of the legal camp administration; I want to put to you that this is what the Witness Hogan concerned, and I ask you to consider this when making your reply?
A. It is possible that the demand of the legal camp management, the political leadership of the camp, played a part during this selection, but that can only concern a part of these persons who were used for these experiments. It could only concern such personalities who could have endangered the camp. This personality, however, existed. I personally had nothing to do with the selection, and I personally did not know the leading people in the camp. How well Dr. Hoven knew these leading people in the camp I do not know. I doubt whether he knew them all very well.
Q. That is just what I wanted to ask you, Witness; considering the circumstances in the concentration camp you cannot say that everyone knew the legal camp management, and conversation which was carried out with defendant Hoven with the legal camp administration; you did not attend them, did you?
A. Certainly I wasn't present during many times.
Q. Then if it was concerned here that the defendant Hoven, as far as he selected part of the subjects for these experiments, did so at the request of the legal camp management; can that be correct?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. I don't know where you got your information from; did you get it from Dr. Hogan?
A. I don't quite understand you.
Q. Where did you have the information? Listen, I just want you to answer my questions, and nothing else.
A. There was a possibility in this typhus experimental station to save people, people that were looked for by tho camp administration; it often happened that they disappeared and then often Dr. Hogan agreed to save these people. That is quite clear to me.
Q. It is then correct, or you at least cannot exclude the fact that the defendant Hogan, as far as he is concerned himself with the selection he did so with the request of the legal camp management?
A. I think it is possible that he considered certain of their wishes.
THE PRESIDENT: At this time the Tribunal will recess until 1:30.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 14 January 1947) THE MARSHALL:
The Tribunal is again in session FERDINAND ?ROEHI?
?: - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued.)
BY DR. GAWLIK? Counsel for Defendant Hoven:
Q. Witness, you were then speaking about the death reports. Is it correct that the death reports were issued by order of Dr. Ding, or his superiors, or don't you know that?
A. As far as I know, there was an order of some superior agency that the typhus experiments should not come to public knowledge and that no doubt was an order coming from higher agencies, so that typhus was never mentioned as the cause of death.
Q I now come to another point. Do you know, witness, that the Orderlies Weingartner, Adelf Schwarz, the laboratory assistant, Karl Brauer and you were supposed to be sent to the same camp by order of Commandant Kech and that was a camp where Walter Kraemer and Karl Feichs were killed?
A. I am now hearing about that for the first time and I am now hearing for the first time that I was in the same danger. At the time Karl Feichs and Walter Kraemer were arrested, there was only Adelf Schwarz and Arthur Dietsch present; the other were not.
Q You, therefore, don't know that the Defendant Hoven had tried to, prevent that?
A No.
Q I now come to Euthanasia, 14 F 13 and I believe, witness that considering the length of time that has elapsed in the meantime, your statements are partly mixed up. I should like to put the following to you and the witness Kogon also confirmed that two actions, 14 F 13, took place; one took place in the year of 1941 and the other in the year of 1942; do you know anything about that?
A I have already stated that in the year of 1941 there were two transports of criminal and partly political prisoners and they were sent on the transport for that action and then there was another one in the year of 1942, in the spring; they were Jewish invalids amounting to approximately six hundred. I think Dr. Kogon's statement also referred to these two transports.
Q Well, I am not referring to the individual transports and I am not referring to Dr. Kogon, but what I mean to say is that there were two orders; one was in the year of 1941 and after this first order of the year 1941 for this action, 14 F 13, all Jews were to be transferred?
A I did not see these orders. I have already said that only in the year 1943 as a clerk, I had an occasion to receive insight into secret files. I merely saw this correspondence with Dr. Eisele.
Q From your answer, I take it that the statement that Dr. Kogon made in that regard could be completely correct and that you from your own knowledge, cannot give us the necessary statements; did I understand you correctly?
A It may well be that Dr. Kogon did not receive certain information when working with Dr. Ding.
Q During this first action, in the year of 1941, the inmates were selected by a Berlin commission and not by the Defendant Hoven.
A Certainly; at this time it was this action against sexual criminals and political criminals.
Q And the Jews were to be added to that?
A No; I do not know anything about that. I know that during this transport there were no Jews present.
QQuite right; I was just coming to that and I wanted you to confirm that fact.