Supposedly the Russians at the eastern front had used poison bullets. It had been impossible to find out what type of poison had been used. Now, it had been wished that various poisons should be tried out on the prisoners in the Concentration Camp in such a way that the prisoners should be shot with such bullets in order to ascertain the effects. During one such experiment or some similar experiment, and Doctor Ding did not speak very precisely in this subject, a Russian prisoner of war, one of the victims had succeeded in producing a weapon, a knife, which he had on him, and this prisoner had attempted to attack Mrugowsky, but after a certain amount of struggle he had been hold down. The scene had been expremely exciting and he, Ding, did not wish ever again to be exposed to such an affair. It was my first thought when Ding told me this story that the SS had attempted to submit the possibility of poisoning infantry bullets, and that the story that the Russians had used such bullets was pure imagination.
Q. Witness, yesterday you spoke about during Doctor Ding's experiments at Sachsenhausen four persons had been employed; is that correct?
A. I can not remember having mentioned the figure four, nor can I state for certain that we were, in this case, concerned with four prisoners. Doctor Ding merely said that such an experiment or similar experiment had taken place in his presence at Sachsenhausen.
Q. I am not at the moment speaking of Sachsenhausen, I am speaking of Buchenwald.
A. Yes, in Buchenwald there were four prisoners.
Q. Witness, do you want to say that Doctor Ding told you that these experiments took place on Mjrugowsky's orders?
A. Yes, he said that.
Q But, the diary says that "We were concerned with a special experiment on six persons, and the order came from the Reich Criminal Police Department and Mrugowsky."
Is that true? Can you remember that?
MR. McHANEY: I request the witness be shown the diary.
DR. FLEMMiNG: Will one of the defense counsel hand the witness the diary, please.
(The diary was handed to the witness.)
Q. On the 26th of October 1944. Have you got it?
A. No, I have not found it yet, will you tell me the page?
Q. In the German document book it is page 55; page 20 of the original diary.
MR. McHANEY: Page 31 of the English Document Book, your Honor.
A Special experiment on six persons according to instructions of SSOberfuehrer Dr. Mrugowsky and RKPA. It is a verbal report. The diary states that there were six people; then, my recollection that there were four is wrong. The instructions from Mrugowsky and the Reich Criminal Police Department does not contradict, in any way, what I have said; namely, that the instructions came from Mrugrowsky; direct instructions from the Reich Criminal Police Department to Doctor Ding did never take place. The instructions came through Mrugrowsky.
Q. Did Doctor Ding come directly from Sachsenhausen when he told you in great excitement that he had a receipt and gave it to you for filling up?
A. I do not believe that the experiments in Sachsenhausen had been completed before the experiments happened at Buchenwald. I believe I can remember that Doctor Ding had already previously given hints about the experiment at Sachsenhausen when the experiment at Buchenwald took place, and placed us under extreme secretiveness. For instance, Doctor Ding told me that he could not tell me the circumstances of the experiment that he was afraid to tell me. When this experiment took place, he once again referred to the affair at Sachsenhausen. Just from where he had this receipt for this poison is something I do not know.
Q. Do you know where this poison was produced?
A. No.
Q. According to your account Scholbert, Piester, and a fourth man were present during that experiment. Is that correct?
A. With reference to the Carp Cammandant SS Oberfueherer Piester, I am not certain. That the first camp leader SS Sturmbannfuehrer Max Schobert was present is something I never said because Dr. Ding in my presence called Schobert by telephone and told him, "Maxie, you've got to come down right away."
Q. Did Dr. Ding not tell you later what sort of poison you were concerned with?
A. No.
Q. Was there a report to the Reich Criminal Police Department about this experiment?
A. Not through my hands.
Q. You, Witness, stated yesterday that Mrugowsky had agreed to those experiments, to the experiments carried out by Varnet. From where did you have this knowledge?
A. Dr. Ding also reported to Mrugowksy about the experiments which were carried out at Buchenwald.
Q.In other words, you are merely drawing the conclusion from the fact that Ding reported to Mrugowsky that Mrugowsky was agreeable to these experiments?
A. It was Dr. Ding-Schuler's practice that every important matter should be reported to Mrugowsky. Because it was known to him that Mrugowsky very rarely could be got to put anything down in writing, Mrugowsky used to deal with almost everything verbally, orally; and on one occasion Dr. Ding told me that Mrugowsky had told him that it was perfectly enough if he, Ding, Made reports to him in that matter, putting down on paper the progress of things or matters. If there were no objections, then there was normal progress, normal procedure. In this particular instance I therefore drew the conclusion from the report made to Mrugowsky that he was agreeable to that experiment. In addition to Mrugowsky as Dr. Ding's chief in that matter, Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Vornet's experiment did not come under the jurisdiction of Dr. Ding either, and I cannot, therefore, state for certain that it came under the jurisdiction of Mrugowsky.
Mrugowsky's approval regarding Dr. Ding's participation, however, seemed given. It appeared to me that it had been given but that participation was merely assistance in the shape of a mere organizational type from the outside.
Q. Yesterday, Witness, you mentioned Dr. Ellenbeck who had worked in this laboratory. Would you please tell the Tribunal what the leading activities of Dr. Ellenbeck were in the guest laboratory?
A. Dr. Ellenbeck, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer and later SS Sturmbannfuehrer, was possibly oven more ambitious than Dr. Ding-Schuler. He was more conceited, more conceited to a very considerable degree than Dr. Schuler. Those two men, as far as the outside world was concerned, were friends. As it is in keeping with such ambitious SS typos, they wore fighting against each other, nevertheless, behind each other's back. It was Dr. Ding.'s concern and worry that gradually Ellenbeck might grab Block 50 for himself and that gradually he would achieve a better reputation with Mrugowsky than he, Dr. Ding, had at the time himself.
Therefore, he told me about the respective stages of Dr. Ellenbeck's work in Berlin as far as he, Ding, could judge it. The situation therefore appears to be this-- Ellenbeck came to Mrugowsky with a number of suggested changes of initiative, which Mrugowsky approved. The so-called guest laboratory in Block 50 was installed, not by any means the only place and activity for Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Ellenbeck.
Q. Witness, I am merely interested in finding out what was the work, the main work, carried out by Ellenbeck in this guest laboratory which you already referred to yesterday.
A. Chemical research of blood. For instance, the ascertaining of the oxygen content of the blood of human beings, being subjected to various stages of exhaustion. For that purpose, for instance, prisoners from the quarry of Buchenwald were ordered to report to Ellenbeck. The way he used to put it was that he shouted:
"Get me a few of those dopes of yours for blood supply."
Then after that heavy work in the quarry, these people were brought to him; and then they had to perform physical exercises in front of him until they wore exhausted, whereupon the blood was taken from them; and the oxygen content of that blood taken from persons with an exhausted condition was thus ascertained. That's one example, furthermore, Dr. Ellenbeck had to make time preparations necessary for the study of the cure of edemas. I heard through Dr. Ding that it was supposed that starvation edemas should be produced artificially, although there wasn't any actually necessity for this since they were in existence by the scores but apparently it was desired that the conditions under which they occurred should be isolated in order to be able to study them more efficiently, and Ellenbeck was then to produce cures for them, Furthermore, Ellenbeck dealt with convalescent serum. The blood of convalescent persons was taken from experimental-
Q. Yes, well, let me interrupt you. We dealt with that yesterday. Thank you very much. We don't have to come back to that. I was merely interested in hearing from you that research was carried out and was the main activity connected with this starvation edema.
Now, witness, yesterday you said that the order for these incendiary bomb experiments came from Dr. Mrugowsky. Did not Dr. Ding tell you that before these experiments he had been to see the Higher Police Leader von Woersch of Dresden? Have you got this document bock before you still? And may I ask you to open it to the last page of the working report.
A. I can remember without looking at this report that Dr. Ding-Schuler did talk to the Higher Police Loader von Woersch personally and was in contact with him. He reported to Mrugowsky at every stage of the development just as it was the habit at this time and just as it was his endeavor at that particular stage not to do anything without the knowledge of or, if possible, the approval of Mrugowsky.
Q. Yesterday, Witness, you referred to the vaccine produced at the Robert Koch Institute and you described to us the Cox-Gildemeister Haagen vaccine; it that correct?
A. Yes
Q. Where did you get the Cox-Gildemeister-Haagen designation from?
A. Right from the beginning it was called that in Block 50; and it was also contained in scientific publications. Again, as vaccine according to the process of Cox, Gildemeister and Haagen, it was reflected. The American Cox was named in that connection because he was the first man to transplant Rickettsia Prawazeki to the yolks of chicken eggs.
Q. You read Dr. Ding's report to the Military Medical Academy, didn't you, the report?
A. Yes. May I ask you which report you are talking about?
Q. The report which Dr. Ding made before the Military Medical Academy about his experiments.
A. No, I did not read that report, The third Military Medical conference with which we are here concerned took place, as far as I can recollect, during the first half of May, 1943, in Berlin. During the second half of the month of April, I was attached to Dr. Ding-Schuler as medical clerk; and my work with him began only on the 2nd or 6th of June, 1943 after Dr. Ding's return from Berlin. It was then that he told me during the very first days of my work for him about this conference; but I must say in that connection that between the time of Dr. Ding's return from Berlin and the beginning of my clerk's work for him, that is to say, between the end of May or the second half of May, and the 6th of June, I saw Dr. Ding quite frequently and had orders and instructions from him.
Q. In the report which Dr. Ding made during this Congress and which, of course, we have in writing, he always referred to this vaccine as being produced according to the GildemeisterHaagen process, without the addition of the name of the American Cox. Is it known to you that, apart from that, Dr. Ding always referred to the Gildemeister-Haagen vaccine?
A. It is perfectly possible and perfectly explicable, considering Dr. Ding's habits, that he did describe it thus. It is quite possible that it was only through the scientists in Block 50 that the other designation became clear to him. In Block 50 at any rate the vaccine was always described as being produced according to the Cox-Gildemeister and Haagen process.
Q. Did Block 46, Mr. Witness, have an animal stable in which experimental animals were kept?
A. No.
Q. Would you please look at the diary entry for the 23rd of March 1943?
A. May I ask you to tell me the page? You mean German document Page 44?
Q. That is right.
MR. McHANEY: Page 44 in the English document book, Your Honors.
BY DR. FLEMING:
Q. Conference between SS Sturmbahnfuehrer Bernewald, SS Sturmbahnfuehrer Ding, and SS Hauptscharfuehrer Schlesinger, in the offices of Department W 5, W & V.H.A., Economic and Administrative Chief Department, about the rabbit and guinea pig and mice collection for experimental animal purposes for the experimental department. Did the keeping of such animals for the experimental department ever become known to you?
A. At the time mentioned conferences did take place about the question of keeping animals for the two departments dealing with typhus and virus research -- that is the clerical department and the vaccine production -- that such animal stations should be installed.
who didn't wish that prisoners from Block 40 and Block 50 be removed from his jurisdiction to a considerable extent, as it were, should be in position to dispose of rabbits. He knew the conditions in the camp very intimately and he knew that we would just eat these rabbits. There was a considerable fight between the administrative chiefs and those SS men who were under our influence and who also were interested in getting rabbits which were meant to be experimental animals into the frying pan. I must add that we were living under conditions which got us to the point where we were even eating infected animals. In the course of these negotiations it was finally decided that this experimental animal department would only be attached to Block 50 because 46 did not offer any facilities for a control through the administrative department of the concentration camp at Buchenwald.
Q. How do you know about these negotiations so intimately, in such detail? It was on the 23rd of March 1943 that they took place and you didn't get there until much later; you didn't join Dr. Ding until much later.
A. May I point out to the defense counsel that in a concentration comp nothing was more intensely dealt with, more thoroughly talked about than matters relating to food. The negotiations concerning these rabbits went on for a full six months, After the beginning of my work with Dr, Ding I took part in these negotiations in a very vivid manner, because when the prisoners considered that an extraordinarily good proposition right from the beginning of increasing our food supplies. As an aside, you might be able to ** from this what circumstances interfered with the scientific value of experiments carried out in a concentration camp. There was no stage during these negotiations which I didn't trace back right to the very beginning of it.
Q. You therefore know the negotiations, regarding the beginning of the negotiations, only by hearsay?
A. From the conversations of all persons concerned with the exception of Sturmbahnfuehrer Bernewald.
Q. Yesterday, Mr. Witness, you had talked about the letterhead, which you described as the "bloated head". It was Reich Medical Officer SS Chief Hygiene Officer, Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS, Chief Professor Dr. Joachim Mrugowsky. This letterhead, was that used by Ding or were you then referring to arriving letters which had such letter heading as that?
A. Yesterday I didn't express myself too accurately, When I 'was speaking I was noticing that I had used the word "letterhead" but I didn't want to correct myself in such a comparatively immaterial affair. I am talking about the address. Left top there was the letterhead; that was three lines long and it was "Department for Typhus and Virus Research in the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS, Weimar/Buchenwald." On the right hand side there was the date; then followed underneath the address, which ran up to seven lines, so that in the case of full foolscap sheets I had only one single line left for the text of the letter after I had written the date and the address. The actual address was also very slightly different than as I described it yesterday. In particular, Mrugowsky was not "Professor" but "Dozent Lecturer"; but on the other hand, his double doctor title was quoted quite frequently in its entirety. He was a Dr. of Botany and a Dr. of Medicine.
Q. Do you also know the letter heading used by Mrugowsky himself and what did they look like?
A. They changed. It depended upon the function in which Mrugowsky was writing to Dr. Ding. You see, Dr. Ding also had the functions of a hygienist for the prohibited territory "B" of the Waffen SS under Hirt. When Mrugowsky, as Chief Hygienist, wrote to Dr. Ding, then, as far as I can recollect, the letterhead read as follows: Chief Hygienist of the SS. If, on the other hand, he wrote in his capacity of Chief of the Hygiene Institute, then he was referred to as such; the signature was quite frequently "Mrugowsky, Department Chief".
Q. This question of seven lines, that was therefore an invention which Dr. Ding was employing, wasn't it? In Mrugowsky's own letterheads it was never used; is that correct?
A. No; but then I don't see why it should have been an invention of Dr. Ding's.
Q. Well, after all, that is unimportant.
DR. FLEMMING: I have no further questions.
DR. MERKEL: Attorney Merkel for Defendant Genzken.
BY DR. MERKEL:
Q. Witness, according to your testimony it has become certain that there were two different types of typhus stations operating at Buchenwald: a) the experimental station or clinical station at Block 46, and b) the production station in Block 50. Is that correct?
A. The vaccine production station in Block 50, yes, that is quite right.
Q. Do you know since when the experimental station at Block 46 existed?
A. The beginning of this experiment 1 station at Block 46 goes back to the last months of the year 1941. The preparations and the very first experiments took place in the stone blocks Nos. 44 and 49. According to my memory, it was at the beginning of 1942, after appropriate installations had been made in Block 46, that the entire operational level of the experiments and the apparatus was transferred to Block 46.
Q. And the production plant at Block 50, when did that begin its activities?
A. August 15, 1943.
Q. It was at that time that production started there I take it?
A. It was at that point that those operations were started which I have described earlier. That is to say, the part preparation for production.
Q. These two blocks were entirely separate plants. Apparently this was only the personal union in the shape of a joint chief, Ding-Schuler, and in the shape of the joint offices; is that correct?
A. As fay as the physical situation was concerned, both blocks were separated, yes. Each one of those stone blocks stood on a different side of the camp there in the same row. These two departments had no joint personnel, for instance, That is to say, the prisoners who worked in Block 46 had no business whatever in Block 50, and prisoners working in Block 50 had no business in Block 46. The joint chief was Dr. Ding-Schuler. Any collaboration only developed because of various circumstances. There was no joint office. The office which has been talked about here was in Block 50 and it had on its part nothing to do with Block 46. The collaboration between the two blocks consisted, from case to case, in the fresh blood of typhus patients to the extent of two cubic centimeters would be taken to Block 50 by Cape Arthur Dietsch and there transplanted or vaccinated on to guinea pigs. Secondly, that instructions which Dr. Ding-Schuler would give to the office in Block 50, as far as they concerned Block 46 from the point of view of organizational or technical matters, were passed on iron the office to Block 46 by means of a field telephone.
Q. If you were to look at the document book, Witness -- and I am talking about Page 41 -- that is Page 6 of Ding's diary -- then you will find an entry of January 9, 1943, and there it says that the name of the experimental station was changed from Typhus Experimental Station, Buchenwald, to Department for Typhus and Virus Research. You yourself admittedly didn't get there until April 1943 but, nevertheless, are you able to tell us and confirm to ***** this entry is correct and that that alteration had actually taken place as early as January, 1943?
A. According to all the information which I had available in the camp that entry is correct. I can by no means state that the 9th of January is correct but I can confirm that it was in January 1943 that this happened.
Q. Can you confirm from the files of the office at Block 50 what the letterhead of these two might have read before January 1943 and what it might have read after January 1943?
A. Just what it read before is something I cannot confirm. I cannot now remember that. At that time correspondence was handler by Dr. Ding in the office of Block 46. The correspondence was mostly kept there, too, unless it was later on transferred to Block 50, but I really can not now remember the letterhead. After the beginning of my work I often wrote, as I earlier told you, following Dr. Ding's instructions, quite regularly: "Department for Typhus and Virus Research," sometimes "Attached to the Hygiene Institute, Waffen-SS" or sometimes only "Hygiene Institute, Waffen-SS, Berlin" and underneath that, "Weimar/Buchenwald,"
Q. Do you know anything about the question in connection with other experiments, namely experiments with poison, phosphorous, incendiary bombs, to. ************* Genzken was over mentioned?
A. It was never mentioned.
Q. These experiments did not start until the late autumn of 1943, if I understood you correctly?
Q. One last question. You stated in your testimony that you can not say for certain whether the Defendant Genzken or Reichs Medical Office Grawitz, had been to Buchenwald, Defendant Genzken states, and is most Emphasize about it, that he has neither visited Block 46 nor-Block 50 nor the Concentration Camp Buchenwald at all or at any time during the war. What do you think you can base your assumption on that Genzken had been present in the Typhus Station at Buchenwald?
A. Merely upon the repeated written invitations which Dr. Dingw-Schule sent to his former chief and, as he used to put it, "Fatherly Friend Genzken" to look at the "workshop" at Buchenwald, I want to remark in this connection that the "officer tone" was frequently employed by Dr. Ding, even in less serious matters.
I can not confirm to you that Gruppenfuehrer Genzken actually followed any of those invitations in reality.
Q. Thank you very much. I have no further questions.
DR. DUERR (Assistant for Defendant Poppendick's defense counsel):
Q. Witness, did you see Defendant Poppendick in the camp during your stay at Concentration Camp Buchenwald at any time?
A. No.
Q. Did you know him personally?
A. No.
Q. Yesterday you were talking about typhus experiments. Did reports about typhus experiments go to Defendant Poppendick?
A. No. At least not from Dr. Ding-Schuler.
Q. I see. Then with reference to the subject to Dr. Varnet. Yesterday you were talking about experiments on homosexuals made by Dr. Varnet and you were talking in that connection about 2 fatalities. Is it correct that the cause for the deaths of these 2 experimental persons was on one occasion a phlegmon infection and on the second occasion general body weakness?
A. That is perfectly possible. The case of deaths did not happen in my sphere of work, in that sphere, I mean, which I could survey personally. From the prisoners' sick-bay I heard that 2 experimental persons had died. It is possible that these occurred in connection with experiments or partially from other causes.
Q. But you state in your book, "The SS State" and I am sure you remember this, that the matter was different.
A. What do you mean, I state in my book?
Q. That one death was due to phlegmon and the other death to general body weakness in connection with these experiments of Dr. Varnet.
A. May I ask you whether, in this cross-examination here, I am being examined about the correctness of my past published statements in the book "The SS State" or the correctness of my statements before this Military Tribunal?
Q. In other words, in your statement you are not referring to your book any more. You have heard that statement from some other person?
A. I am not saying that I am basing myself here on the statements made in my book or that I am not basing myself on it. I can say at this moment that what I said at this particular place on that tremendous subject I had to deal with, what I actually said was on the strength of what details are now at my disposal. If, therefore, we are concerned with the statements in my book, I would have to go home and look at my documents before I could give you a clear and reasonable answer to your question. In this particular case, therefore, I am not under any circumstances basing myself here in this courtroomy on that book, which I have written.
Q. Witness, did the correspondence pass through your hands addressed to the Experimental Department at Leipzig?
A. The correspondence always went either to Poppendick or to Obersturmbannfuehrer, Dr. Klicherty or to the Higher Police and SS Leader von Woersch, I cannot remember having carried on a correspondence with the Experimental Station V, or, as we were calling it, (Roman Numeral Five) V, or ever having bean directly in touch with it, in fact? Otherwise I would very probably know the exact address.
Q. Do you know whether Defendant Poppendick was merely in contact with that experimental station or whether he wasits responsible head?
A. That I do not know. I assumed that he was under the jurisdiction of the Reichs Medical Officer-SS and that he was the expert concerned.
Q. How do you know that Dr. Varnet actually belonged to this Experimental Department V?
A. In correspondence the description recurred quite often.
Q. But this experimental station was never described any more clearly? It was either called Department V or Department V (Roman Numeral Five).
A. Yes.
Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
JUDGE BEALS: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
By DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for Defendant Hoven.)
Q Witness, you told us In detail about the cooperation of the defendant Hoven with the illegal camp administration of the concentration camp at Buchenwald. Did I understand you correctly. Did his cooperation consist of, first, to make suggestions to the illegal administration of the camp and then realize then into acts and then cover acts of the illegal administration, and, secondly, did he translate orders of the SS, according to the suggestions of tie illegal camp administration?
A The first point is correct. Suggestions of the illegal camp administration were actually conducted and he actually also, covered the realization of such orders by the illegal camp admininstration. May I ask you to repeat the second point?
Q To exercise orders of the SS, according to the suggestions of the illegal camp administration?
A Whenever the SS issued any orders for the camp, which referred to the hospital, to the inmates or with reference to punishment actions in the camp, then the illegal camp administration immediately referred then to Dr. Hoven whenever he was present and asked him to try either to some persons who were in danger, that is to save them from punishment actions, or if the entire camp was affected, he was asked to alleviate these measures by appealing to the camp administration or to have them completely withdrawn.
Q I now come to the action 14 F 13. Doctor, do you know that two actions 14 F 13 took place; one from May to July, 1941, and a second in the year 1942?
A I knew that in 1941 as well as in 1942 gas transports left Buchenwald. I do not know that these two actions had the designation 14 F 13. I was of the opinion that only the second action, that is the one of 1942, was designated in that manner.
Q. Doctor, I am not referring to the individual transports but what I mean there were two orders with reference to 14 F 13, one of then from, the month of May to July, 1941, and then there was a second order issued by Himmler in the year 1942. Do you knew that?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that during the first action, which took place and was ordered in the year 1941, the inmates were selected by a commission of physicians coring from Berlin, consisting of three physicians?
A Yes, I know that.
Q. Do you further knew that the defendant Hoven in the year of 1941 was not the first camp physician, but that at that the Dr. Blanke was the first camp physician?
A Yes, I know that.
Q Do you know that an order existed, originating from Himmler, with reference to the first action 14 F 13, that in addition to the insane and crippled, all the Jews of the concentration camp Buchenwald were to be selected?
A Yes, I know that too.
Q Do you further knew that on the basis of an order of Himmler this action 14 F 15 was only known to a small circle cf Fuehrers and SS physicians and that it was forbidden under the punishment of death to inform other people about that?
Q I learned that from the members of the illegal camp administration, who said that they had learned that from Dr. Hoven on their part.
Q And that brings me to the next question? Do you know that the defendant Hoven, after being informed about the first action 14 F 15 and its extent, got into contact with the former Reich's Camp Director Kramer of the illegal camp administration and the Jewish Cape leader Cohn and told them about this intended action, contrary to the expressed order of Himmler?
A I know that and I know it from these days.
A Do you further know that Kraemer and Cohn agree with the defendant Hoven to prevent the delivery of Jews for that purpose?
A Walter Kraemer and August Cohn did that. They reached on agreement with Dr. Hoven that everything was to be done in order to prevent this action as far as possible.
Q Do you else know that this was done by the defendant Hoven? Do you rather know that this action, which was tried to be prevented by the illegal camp administration, was designated 14 F 14 rather than 14 F 15?
A. I cannot now say exactly whether at that time I know that these two letters were exchanged. It is possible, since I myself at a later date whenever this question came up and that was years later, I repeatedly exchanged the numbers one letters.
Q Can you describe to the Tribunal what measures or counter measures were taken and when it was prevented that all Jews were delivered for these transports?
A I can say the following in that connection; we did our best to see that 210 Jews, who were for many years in the concentration camp Buckenwald and who made many friends in the camp, or who had important professions, for instance, professors, physicians, antlers, politicians, or such Jews who were of special importance for the development of a more liberal socialist future, we saw to it that they were struck out from the list under the Action 14 F 15. The SS administration of the camp, partly by inmates and partly by Dr. Hoven, was told clearly that a number of very important buildings for the war effort were to be erected outside of the camp. They were told that those buildings could not be erected if a certain amount of building exports wore not at our disposal. Approximately 210 of those Jews, as I described than before, were designated as building exports.
With auditions as they were in the concentration camp, the SS did not investigate such reports and they were hardly able to do that and make a thorough investigation, since most of them, and I mean the SS men, knew nothing about these export professions.
These Jews often had already worked in quarries and in building details and had participated in the forced labor for the erection of barracks and therefore gained some knowledge which enabled them to us that knowledge in an emergency and in case they were investigation. Whether the SS camp administration reported this necessity to keep these builders to the Berlin SS head office or whether on their own initiative merely on the basis, of the suggestion of Dr. Hoven and. the suggestion of many others made the according order, I do not know. It is a fact that these 210 Jews approximately remained in the camp of Buchenwald and nearly all of them stayed there until 1945 and survived this terrible period I know nothing more about the connection in this saving action.
Q. Doctor, you stated before that this saving action was done with the co-operation of the illegal camp administration and Dr. Hoven. I am just being informed, Mr. President, that co-operation was not translated and I should like you to concern with it once more.
A. As I stated, on the basis of suggestion and intervention of Capos and on the basis of suggestion of Dr. Hoven in mutual co-operation.
Q. Witness, do you know that the defendant Hoven carried out further measures in order to save these Jews, namely, getting into contact with the leading physician Dr. Lolling and that he had him prepare a work about anthropological measurements in order to be able to strike these Jews from the lists?
A. I don't know this fact. However, I do know that Dr. Hoven selected a certain number of these Jews and safeguarded them especially by keeping them either the limits of the inmate hospital and housing them there, for instance, in the tuberculosis station August Kohn himself was transferred as a so-called house orderly into Block 46. From there he was later transferred to Block 50 and also thus survived in the cap.
Q. Doctor, do you further know that in spite of all of these measures by the defendant Hoven together with the illegal camp administration took one or two days before departure of the transport, it was found out eleven political inmates who were in important positions were on the list and that then further measures were taken?