Q Thank you. Yesterday, witness you said that aside from typhus, experiments were carried out in Buchenwald with yellow fever, small-pox, dyptheria, typhoid A and B, etc., etc. What kind of experiments were they; were they protective vaccinations?
A These experiments took place at a time before my activities with Dr. Ding-Schuler. I know about them and a number of details about the experiments through him and I heard of them in part from other prisoner comrades. Beside the matter with the potato salad, Phosphorus Kantchuk experiments, which I have mentioned, I cannot make any precise statements on the subject, however, in excess of this, I know only the entries in the diary - in the diary of Block 46, which you have just discussed. However I know that the yellow fever experiment series was discontinued because it was completely unsuccessful.
Q Then, I may conclude that everything that you testified about these experiments yesterday, with the exception of the potato salad experiments, you know only from hear-say, from third parties.
A I must state that I have never even been present in a single experiment, with the exception of the horticulture experiments, I was not in Block 46 as a spectator or as a participant. In this respect, I have always been connected with these things through Dr. Ding-Schuler or through a Document and I have obtained this knowledge, which however is very precise, through what I have heard from my comrades who were connected with these experiments.
Q Did your comrades tell you anything about whether the vaccinations against small pox, etc., so called tetra vaccines, were with capsules as were used with vaccinations of the troops?
A I can recall the expression, "Usual Capsules". I cannot say if it referred to the Pox innoculations.
Q You know of the tetra vaccines?
A Yes, but I cannot say with certainty if it referred to that
Q Witness, you also said yesterday that Dr. Ding from about the fall of 1943 on no longer wanted to have oral instruction from Mrugowsky for experiments; do you remember that? You also told us yesterday that Mrugowsky during the period in which you worked in Block 50 in Buchenwald, that Mrugowsky was in Buchenwald two or at the most three times?
A I did not say that. I have only stated that I personally wrote -- that I have seen Mrugowsky personally two times, and also perhaps even three times.
That you saw him two or three times; and the work report of the section for typhus or typhus research for 1943, which is in the document book on Page 13, on Page 4 of the work report on Page 16 of the document book, the visitors are listed. If you look at the next page, Page 5 of the work report, Page 17 of the document book, you will find about in the lower third the entry from the 4th of September, "Inspection in the Village of 'X' with the Head of the Hygiene Institute SS-Standartenfuehrer lecturer Dr. Mrugowsky, with the Standertarzt of the Waffen SS Weimer-Buchenwald and with the Standerstarzt of the Standertarzt of the Waffen SS Weimer-Buchenwald and with the adjutant of the commandant of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp." Do you find this entry?
A Yes.
Q That is the only entry about the visit of Mrugowsky to Buchenwald then -
THE INTERPRETER: Just a minute.
MR. McHANEY: If Your Honor, please, I wish to point out that is not the only entry, in fact it is not the entry in regard to Mrugowsky's visit to Buchenwald. It occurred on the 3rd of September in the section preceeding what he was reading, Page 18 of the English document book, right at the top of the page.
Q You will also find, Witness, on Page 5, the heading "Official Trips" under Roman Numeral IV, "Official trips by head of the Department for Spotted Fever and Virus Research," and you will find under this heading a single conference with Mrugowsky in Berlin; on Page 6, at the top, from the 29th of September to the 4th of October.
Did Dr. Ding ever say anything to you about when and on what occasion he got the oral orders from Mrugowsky for his experiments if he saw him so seldom, as the work report indicates?
A The report which is in front of me, and to which you have referred, deals with the year 1943 -
Q Yes.
A But that is not 1944 or 1945.
A He. 1943.
A Well, 1943, but only the year 1943. I have not read all of the whole report now, but the fact is that in accordance with the entry here Mrugowsky visited Buchenwald on the 4th of September, and as I have already pointed out, he visited Buchenwald very rarely. I myself have only seen him two or three times, and I do not believe that he paid any more frequent visit. On the other hand Dr. Ding visited Berlin rather frequently. This may have happened as often as three or four times all year, however, it may have been six times, or even more. During the time before 1943-
Q Let us stick to 1943.
A He has even lived in Berlin. I am referring to Dr. Ding. In this report from the 28th of September until the 4th of October there is one of the conferences which seemed important to Dr. Ding. The report is not made with the same thoroughness and preciseness as a business report which might have been written about an experiment in Block 46, or it might have been sent to Berlin. The Sturmbannfuehrer that you have, that is in this case me, and the second clerk who wrote up the second report from the had of his private diary, he gave us the proper notes, and it was then summarized by the second clerk.
It is significant that it has not been stated in the entry of concerte conferences, Dr. Ding had at Berlin with Dr. Mrugowsky at this time. From late fall 1943 Dr. Ding has not contented himself with all instructions for the experiments, instructions which he used to bring along from Berlin, but he also demanded written orders.
Q We have got away from my question, Witness. I asked you whether it is true that Dr. Ding was in Berlins as seldom as the work report indicates; I may point out to you -
A Dr. Ding?
Q Dr. Ding in Berlin. I may point out to you that in this work report comparative discussions and trips of comparatively less importance are entered.
A The trips which Dr. Ding took to Berlin, especially after he got oral instructions and for his experiments would have been extremely important.
Q But I hear from you that you did not write this work report yourself?
A I wrote it on the typewriter.
Q Did you set it up?
A I had help to compose it.
Q Then will you please explain to the Court for what reason you did not include the trips of Dr. Ding to Berlin in the work report, while other much less important trips were included?
A The defense counsel overestimates the working procedure of the SS. The results of this procedure, however, cannot be taken seriously enough. This report was written only for one purpose, on the part of Dr. Ding, to give as extensively as possible report of his activity to Dr. Mrugowsky in Berlin. It is quite an extent of over-doing things, which has been shown in such reports. Secondly, if such important things as experiments on human beings had to be carried out, then this was in no way accomplished in such a seldom form as the defense counsel seems to assume.
At that period of time most of the SS leaders were quite unawares of the end of the War, and the fate that would await them, and there was relatively little speculating done to that effect. Instructions were frequently issued rather freely and I have seen discussions about the subject, in a casino tone, so that my ears are still standing on end today when I think about it, how the fate of human beings was being discussed. Dr. Ding may have been in Berlin, and at some suggestion he agreed on experimental series with his chief Mrugowsky. Only from 1943 on he became afraid to a quite considerable extent under my influence, and from then on he demanded written documents.
Q Witness, you just told us that during 1943 Dr. Ding began to worry about the outcome of the War, is that right?
A Yes. This work report, however, concerns the year 1943.
Q It goes up to the end of the year 1943, and therefore must have been set up in 1944, is that right?
A If it was not composed into two halves, then it was only composed in January 1944.
Q Would you please look at the first page of the work report, the date?
A Yes, it is stated here, "Weimar-Buchenwald, January, 1944."
Q Yes, that's what I mean. You tell us that in 1943 already Dr. Ding was afraid about the outcome of the war?
A Yes.
Q In January 1944 he set up this work report?
A Yes.
Q Then he really should have put special value on it and you, who were his adviser, would have urged him that it was important to include the trips to Berlin in the work report so that you would be able to prove when and on what occasions he received his orders for the experiments?
A I have not always adv**ed Dr. Ding, not at all in all matters. I have taken every opportunity which offered itself to me to influence him. Secondly, Dr. Ding-Schuler was an extraordinarily light hearted person. Even during the last months, prior to the end of the war and before the visible collapse, he could get away with a whistle over all risky things from case to case. This did not prevent him to be most deeply depressed at other times. However, the trend not to think over the approaching catastrophe seriously always get the better of him. Therefore, from the beginning of 1944 Schuler became more and more aware not to do any superfluous things anymore, and always to be covered by written orders. That this might have had an effect on the report for 1943, that he had construed documents for trial later on, that is completely out of question. About the possibility that some day he might be placed in front of a court he became aware of the first time in August, 1944 in the course of a long discussion between him and myself.
Q Witness, in April 1943 you came to Block 50 as clerk?
A That's right. Not in Block 50, no. In April 1943 I came as physician's clerk to Dr. Ding-Schuler in the department for pathology, because after all, he had not intended me for Block 46 and Block 50 had not been completed as yet.
In Block 50 as a building I came on the 15th of August 1943.
Q Who was you predecessor in the position which you held from April, 1943 on?
A There was no predecessor because the production of vaccines only began from that month on, and I was only his physician's clerk in Block 50, and that I would become a private secretary some week later was a matter for which no reasons actually existed in the camp.
Q Yesterday, Witness, when you were describing how you got the diary when the records were destroyed, you said that you took a bundle of records out of the sack together with the diary. Would you please tell the Tribunal what kind of records they were?
A May I first of all correct you slightly? If I remember correctly, I did not say that I had taken this diary with a bundle of records out of the sack, but that I took a bundle of records out of the bag and that I saw the diary lying there and that I also took it. These other records were in part, fever charts, and sickness charts and correspondence which I looked over later on.
Q What has happened to these records?
A I have turned all these records -- just like the diary -I have kept them with me and part of them, and I have placed part of them at the disposal of the American authorities whenever they requested it. I still have another part in my possession in my apartment at Oberursel, and most of them, for example, the case histories which shows the course of a disease with a patient or group of patients together with the original signature of the controlling SS physician in Block 46.
Q Witness, do you know the name, Grawitz?
A Yes. Grawitz was the Reich Physician of the SS.
Q What connection was there between Dr. Grawitz and Dr. Ding
A. Dr. Grawitz was the supreme chief as Reich Physician SS. The medical officer of the Waffen SS, to which the Hygienic Institute of the Waffen SS belonged, was subordinated to him. Dr. Ding was departmental chief and until 1944 he was the chief department head in the medical office, and therefore was subordinated to the Reich Physician SS, Dr. Grawitz.
Q Were there personal relations between Dr. Grawitz and Dr. Ding?
A Dr. Ding told me on several occasions that he had also visited the Reich Physician SS in Berlin, and that he knew Dr. Grawitz and that under circumstances he might expect a certain amount of support from him, but however, this support was not so intensive as that which Genzken had given him, because Genzken was personally devoted to him. Furthermore, around this period of time that is, from the middle of 1943 on, Mrugowsky occupied such an important position that it appeared dangerous for DIng Schuler to go over the head of this immediate superior, Mrugowsky, and to have too much direct contact with Grawitz.
Q You say too much direct contact. Was there an exchange of correspondence between Dr. Grawitz and Dr. Ding?
A It is not quite easy for me to recall each and every one of these details, because almost every record which was sent to Mrugowsky bare the heading on the left top, "Reich Physician SS, the Chief Hygienist of the SS, Director of the Hygienic Institute of the Waffen SS, Professor Dr. Joachim Mrugowsky, SS Oberfuehrer". I almost wore out my fingers trying to constantly repeat this waterhead title. Therefore, I cannot state exactly anymore how often Ding wrote to Grawitz personally. However, it has happened.
Q Did Ding get direct instructions from Dr. Grawitz?
A I do not know any case of that kind.
Q Do you know Grawitz personally or only by name?
A I only know him by name.
Q Was Grawitz never in Buchenwald?
A I have already emphasized that I do not know exactly if Gruppenfuehrer Genzken or Gruppenfuehrer Grawitz made that particular visit at Buchenwald in the year 1943.
Q Did Dr. Ding make any use of these experiments with typhus and other vaccines?
A May I ask in what respect?
Q That is, that the course and the results of these experiments were recorded?
A Yes.
Q Where were the results of these experiments recorded?
A In the diary or in special books.
Q Therefore, it is not a scientific use?
A No notation. The documentary record is in case histories, fever charts and documents covering experimental series, and in the diary of Block 46. Furthermore, in the reports which were submitted to Mrugowsky at Berlin and to the other agencies which happened to be interested in them.
Q You just said, Witness, that the results were recorded in the diary of Block 46. You have this diary before you. Would you show me a place in which results of the experiments were recorded? I do not mean that so and so many died as indicated in the diary, but what the result of the experiment was in regard to testing the vaccine; that is, the result?
A Then we would have to reach an agreement about the concept of result because a corpse is also to me a sad result of an experiment. Therefore, it is the value which has been gained by the experiments and the evaluation which resulted for certain vaccines which had been applied after the experiment.
Q Yes.
A These evaluations can only be found from the overall records which were begun after every experimental series, and a large number of experimental series.
In particular, on one occasion, a large blackboard was built for evaluations and it was placed at the disposal of the hygienist, and one exemplary of it went to Block 46.
Q In the diary these results were not recorded?
A No.
THE PRESIDENT: At this time the Tribunal will recess until 9:30 o'clock tomorrow morning when the cross examination may be resumed.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 8 January 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 8 January 1947, 0930, Justice Beals, presideing.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you ascertain if the defendants are all present in the courtroom.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your honors, the defendants are all present in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in the court.
Counsel may proceed with the cross-examination.
DR. EUGEN KOGON (Resumed) CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued)
BY MR: FLEMMING (Counsel for the defendant Mrugowsky):
Q Witness, yesterday you had told us that Mrugowsky had been to Buchenwald twice or certainly no more than three times. Will you please tell this Tribunal how long these visits of Mrugowsky had lasted in each individual case?
A May I first of all come back to what I said yesterday and state again that I have not said that Mrugowsky had been to Buchenwald two or three times but that I have seen him two or three times. These visits lasted from one to three hours in each individual case.
Q What activities did Mrugowsky carry out during that time, did he inspect Block 50 or Block 40, or what?
A On each one of these occasions when Mrugowsky visited Buchenwald, visits I experienced, Mrugowsky was announced.
He arrived at the commandants office. From there he went to Block 50 into the room of Dr. Ding. He inspected on one or two occasions the entire flight of rooms in Block 50 and he stayed in the orderly room for a brief period. That is where I was work ing. One one occasion he dictated in Dr. Ding's room a letter which I had to take down and on another occasion he dictated a teleprinted message. He had a brief consultation with Dr. Ding which I did not attend and then from the telephone in the library in Block 50 I had orders to get in touch with Block 46 and inform Block 46 that the visitors were on the way. Then the gentlemen went to Block 46 on such one individual occasion and after some time they returned, after at least half an hour from Block 46. On two occasions they returned to Block 50 and on one occasion they did not come back to Block 50, and on the occasions when they did come back to Block 50 breakfast was usually served to them in Dr. Ding's room, and after another brief conversation Mrugowsky went to his motor car near Block 50 in order to depart.
Q Did Mrugowsky belong to any department of the concentration camps?
A Not according to my knowledge, no.
Q Did he have any sort of influence on the administration of concentration camps? Did you have any observation of that type?
A He was a member of the department of the Reichs Physician SS, the chief Hygiene Department. This chief hygiene department was under the command, as far as I know, of the SS Chief Leadership Department and only in parts to the SS Chief Administrative Department in Berlin. The SS Chief Administrative Department was the central department of the entire administration of the SS. In this central department there was also Department D which was administering concentration camps. Mrugowsky did not to my knowledge have any influence directly on the administration of concentration camps.
Q Did you make any observations to the effect that he had any influence upon the selection of detainees?
AAs long as the experimental subjects were selected in the actual camp at Buchenwald Mrugowsky did certainly not have any such an influence, neither because of his jurisdiction nor in fact, later on, when the experimental subjects went through the Reich Criminal Police Department or SS Gruppenfuehrer Nebe respectively, from where they were to be placed at our disposal, the applications in question went from Dr. Ding, that is to say applications referring to the number of persons who were needed, went from Dr. Ding to Mrugowsky who in turn would pass them on and Dr. Ding would then be informed by him to the effect that the experimental persons would be available.
Q. Witness, you have repeatedly to the Experimental Research Department Number 5. Where was that located?
A. Research Department Roman Numeral V was at Leipzig.
Q. What did the Research Department 5 have to do with the experiments at Buchenwald?
A. From this Research Department Roman Numeral V in Leipzig I only heard in connection with the two experiments, these phosphor kautchuk incendiary bombs, and also in connection, the experiments dealing with the transplantation of glands in Homosexual persons. A direct connection between that Experimental Department or Research Department 5 and Buchenwald did not actually exist. The channel of orders wont through Poppendick.
Q. Did you in connection with Department 5 ever hear the name "von Teenl"
A. No, never.
Q. Do you know that this IN search Department which you arc always referri to a.s Department Roman Numeral V was not called Department Roman Numeral V, but that this "V" meant a large V for Victor and meant the name "von Tonel"?
A. No, I didn't know.
Q. On page 112 of your book, Mr. Witness, you mention a Dr. Neumann from the Hygiene Institute.
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know that Dr. Neumann was a member of t he Hygiene Department?
A. Dr. Neumann was in the Department, in the Pathological Department in the concentration camp at Buchenwald where he worked. The cape there, Custave Vigora, told me that Dr. Neumann was a member of the Hygiene Department in Berlin.
Q. When was it that Neumann was working at the Pathological Institute?
A. According to my recollection before 1941.
Q. Before 1941. Thank you. Do you know Dr. Reichelt?
A. Yes, if you arc referring to the Air Force Medical Officer, Dr. Reiche that is.
Q. I mean that Dr. Reichelt who was Dr. Ding's deputy in Block 50.
A. Yes. That is right.
Q. Do you know his present whereabouts?
A. He is living at Gaberndorf near Weimar.
Q. What is the name of the village?
A. Gaberndorf near Weimar.
Q. Thank you. What is your judgment of Dr. Ding's character, Witness?
A. As I have already said yesterday, Dr. Ding was a gifted, very reckless man without any moral principles, without religious convictions, without any metaphysical beliefs. To my knowledge, for reasons of ambition and a rapid career Dr. Ding went into the SS. His medical background and knowledge was comparatively small, but he had a certain conception for a fruitful problematical, a medical problematical therefor for which he would promise himself advantages for his own purpose. He wanted to become a well-learned man of repute amongst the medical public and particularly attached to a university. Apart from that, he tried to exploit every possibility in order to enlarge his own personal reputation.
During the period when Dr. Ding was Camp physician at Buchenwald Dr. Ding did a few very horrible things. On the other had, as Camp physician, he improved the hygiene conditions in the camp for the first the somewhat. It was due to him that an operating theatre was installed. When he was in contact with prisoners, then he was capable of producing a very kind and pleasant attitude, but I am, on the other had, perfectly sure that Dr. Ding would have sacrifice any man if his career would have been in jeopardy in any decisive point through that man. He was subject and accessible to certain persuasion and certain arguments. In Block 50 he felt somewhat at home because there were numerous scientists and university men them, and right from the word "go" he referred to Block 50 as some sort of scientific territory, the territory of science in the concentration camp, and he treated us, the inmates of Block 50 with considerable kindness.
For instance, something which is exorbitant for a concentration camp, he impressed us as a gentleman, Upon my suggestion he did almost everything which he could consider as reasonable; he did everything reasonable for us, but he was afraid of accepting any very serious responsibility for his actions. At the same time he maintained the closest possible contact with the capo of Block 46, who was an enemy of almost all of us, and from conversations with me, sometimes dealing with extremely deep subjects, he was capable of going straight to Capo Arthur Dietsch in Block 46 to talk to him in a manner which is only customary amongst criminals.
Dr. Ding loved his family, love his wife and loved his two children. He looked after them in the best possible manner, but he also had different relations, and, in my opinion, he would have been perfectly capable of leaving that family behind had the, possibility arisen for him personally to begin a new existence after the end of the war abroad. Dr. Ding had a character which was full of contradictions.
Q. Witness, what was your and the other prisoners' attitude in Block 50 regarding the production of vaccine?
A. May I request the Defense Counsel to be more precise with reference to the word "attitude"?
Q. Did you consider the production of vaccine something which was necessary in the interest of concentration camps and in the interests of the population and the troops as something desirable; that is to say, did you and the detainees in Block 50 do everything in order to advance this production of vaccine, or did you not?
A. We in Block 50 were given orders. We were told before this Block was opened up that we were concerned with the production of typhus vaccine for the fighting troops of the Waffen-SS at the front. We were perfectly aware right from the beginning that we were faced with a very awkward task. Dr. Ding told us during the first general meeting, "Gentlemen, if something crooked is happening here, if there is any kind of sabotage happening here, then you must be aware that before anything happens to me personally, you all will be put against the wall."
The first stage of the vaccine production was purely experimental. We had a method which was more or loss stolen from the Pasteur Institute at Paris, and we had to try that method in Block 50 for its effectiveness. Those experiments on animals lasted for about four months. We were continuously under pressure from Dr. Ding who was expecting tangible results very quickly. During these months some of us bacteriologists and the manager of this production, Marian Chiepiclowsky, with me collaborating decided that as quickly as possible some vaccine light production should be turned out which could ultimately claim to be a vaccine, but which must not do any harm.
May I point out to the Defense Counsel that the work with the cause of typhus, the Rickettsia Prowazeki, that is to say, the cause of the classical typhus, the typhus examthemicus, is very difficult. Science has not yet discovered the types of this cause for certain. There is a large table of the morphology of this Rickettsia. It is never quite certain and never quite ascertainable what is Rickettsia Prowazcki, that is to say, under the microscope. It is difficult to ascertain which shape would make certain that you are concerned with the cause -- with the germ of the Rickettsia typhus. This fact enabled us to go the way we went.
When Dr. Ludwig Fleck came to Block 50 at Buchenwald, he said in his capacity as a strict scientist after the first consultation with us when he saw the typhus germs which we and produce from rabbit lungs, these were not Rickettsia and that we were concerned with some other type of germ. We asked, him not to communicate this knowledge of ours to Dr. Ding under any circumstances but to make an experiment with us to try with us to get through this difficult matter in some bearable fashion. During the two years when Dr. Flock worked with us right until the end Dr. Fleck kept that secret. Earlier when the Institute of the OKH in Krakow supplied us with infected lungs of mice and infectious material produced from the intestines of mice could it be ascertained definitely that Rickettsia Prowazeki were contained in our animal material after vaccination.
Following that we did produce a vaccine which beyond any doubt was most effective. It could only be produced in small quantities. Dr. Ding, on the other hand, demanded, putting himself under the pressure of the demands made on him from the Hygiene institute in Berlin, that we should produce large quantities of typhus vaccine for the lighting troops. From that moment we produced systematically two types of vaccine, one type which was perfectly harmless which would do no damage, but had no value either. That was produced in large quantities, and that vaccine went to thefront.
A second type was produced invery small quantities; it turned out to be highly effective. It was only used for special cases, and issued for very special cases. And, we, ourselves, used it sometimes at the Concentration Camp Buchenwald for the vaccination of our comrades who were working at dangerous places in the camp. We, too, in Block 50 were repeatedly vaccinated with that vaccine. Doctor Ding-Schuler never heard of these constellations; merely we were faced with critical phases, which, in the Serio-Bacteriological Department of Block 50, there were dead, as it happens during any such production. But, since he did not have any real bacteriological knowledge he did not have the possibility of discovering the deep secrets of this production. He was absolutely, and in everything, depending on the report which the experts from Block 50 gave to him. Apart from that, it was in keeping with his wreckless manner that he should go by external visible success, and when he saw 30 or 40 liters of vaccine which he was able to send to Berlin he was happy. He was hardly concerned during the latter period with the vaccination of the SS troops, and that these people might, nevertheless, fall ill in Russia suffering not only from typhus, something which is always a possibility, but die, in spite of the vaccinations, in large numbers. The ineffectiveness of our vaccine, in other words, of the vaccine sent by us to the front might become apparent, and the outside experts such as might have been at the disposal of the SS right then be sent to Buchenwald. They might have investigated the affair, and they would then have ascertained that this vaccine had hardly been produced. I know no such development occurred, and until March 1945 the daring adventure continued.
Q. Yes, witness, you had described a certain affair in Sachrenhausen according to Doctor Ding's story, a Russian had attacked Dr. Mrugowsky with a knife. I did not quite understand the story. Would you mind repeating this story to the Tribunal?
A. Doctor Ding told me in connection with the secret poison experiment carried out on the four Russian prisoners of war in the crematorium at Buchenwald, that he together with Mrugowsky, had been at the Sachsendausen Concentration Camp outside Berlin, and had attended a poison experiment which had taken the following course: