It became increasingly harder to find any drugs. As a result of this, taking the blood from the convalescence patients, under the circumstances, meant an extraordinary burden on the patients. At this time, a large number of the patients died. However, the same thing applies, that I have already said in regard to the Phosporous-h ntchuk experiments. The specific cause of this could not very easily be ascertained, and it was completely impossible to ascertain it.
Q. The translation came through that in this case where there were causes of death such as in the case of the Phosphorus-Kantchuk experiments you couldn't determine the cause of death. I take it you mean not the Phosphorus-Kantchuk experiments but rather the whole blood plasma experiments?
A. Yes, the experiments which I made. I am referring to the experiments about the transfer of plasma. I have made a mistake.
Q. Now, witness, were there other occasions when blood was taken from inmates of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp for the purpose of making blood plasma?
A. There were quite a large number of cases. In my experience in particular Sturmbannfuehrer Ellenback systematically selected the invalids and old prisoners who were in the so-called small camp under horrible conditions; and he used them to get blood for the SS Hospital and other purposes. In the so-called small camp at Buchenwald, there were seventeen barracks; and they were limited to very narrow space. Around this period of time when Dr. Ellenbeck started taking blood, there were approximately ten thousand people. They were crowded in a very narrow space in barracks. There were as many as fifteen hundred people in the narrow barracks which was hardly enough for four hundred fifty. The people were lying in very small bunks; and they were perche together there. In this small camp where was a special barracks for the invalids which was filled primarily by Frenchmen. Around this time the little camp was almost exclusively occupied by Frenchmen.
The people were told that they would be given special food if they declared themselves ready to offer their blood. In the little camp rigorous starvation was prevailing. Block 50 was directly adjoining to the little camp. We were able to control all other conditions there in all possible respects. A large number of Frenchmen, invalids and old people reported and gave their blood. In this case it was a matter f 150 to 200 cubic centimeters. However, very frequently as much as 400 cubic centimeters were taken away from them.
They were given a piece of sausage. Then it was a piece of liverwurst, which could hardly be described as liverwurst; or they were given Blutwurst, another kind of sausage, which was of a much better quality.
They were also given a lot of bread. I believe they were given throe hundred grams.
This was carried on until April, 1945; and the prisoners were in such condition that there were always a sufficient number of people who volunteered to have their blood taken, in spite of the monstrous conditions in the little camp and in their exhausted condition, just in order to be able to get this piece of bread and this little piece of sausage. The blood was sent by courier from the SS hospital at Berlin; and it was taken there by them.
Q. You would say then that Dr. Ellenoek and his associates were engaged in selling bread and sausage for blood?
A. Well, that is not quite a correct description. They demanded blood; and they told the people to give their blood. So-called grades in the medical service in the hospital at Berlin then went into the little camp and, as they expressed it, they drew the blood from the prisoners. Then Dr. Ellenbeck gave the prisoners who ware working in this laboratory the information that they were to see that the people would be reimbursed in food for their sacrifice. Upon the demand of the prisoners who were working with then, he issued an order to the camp hospital from where the bread and the sausage were then furnished. Three prisoners in his guest laboratory in Block 50 received their rations, from documents which I had, the rations which had been sent for blood donors by the SS; and they submitted these ration allowances to Dr. Ellenbeck, asking him to see that these invalids and old people in the little comp would be given this fixed allowance.
Dr. Ellenbeck did not have the authority to issue orders in the concentration camp Buchenwald. He was a guest there. In Block 50 this order was again forgotten; and the people were given what had became common practice in the concentration camp, which in many instances depended on the temperament of the men who had the authority there.
Q. Do you know under whose orders Dr. Ellenbeck took this blood?
A. It was under the orders of his chief, Mrugowsky.
Q. Can you say whether any of these blood donors in the little camp at Buchenwald did following the taking of the blood from them?
A. The question shews that it is very difficult to gain a real concept of the little camp at Buchenwald. The people died there in masses. During the night the corpses were lying in the blocks naked because they were thrown out of the bunks by the other prisoners so that they would have a little mere space. Even the smallest pieces of clothing were torn away from them by those who wanted to survive. It is impossible to determine if directly and immediately as a result of the taking of bleed anybody died because many people fell down and died while walking around the little camp.
But it is beyond any doubt to anyone who has known the conditions there that the taking of blood, even if it gave a small measure of strength to these people as far as food was concerned, was a considerable contributing factor in the death of many of these people.
Q. Now, Witness, I think you mentioned at an earlier point in the examination here that a report was sent to Poppendick in connection with certain experiments on the homosexuals by Dr. Varnet in Buchenwald. Will you tell the Tribunal what you know about these experiments?
A. In the late spring or early summer of 1944 Dr. Ding told me that he had been ordered to assist a Danish Sturmbannfuehrer, Dr. Varnet, in the execution of such experiments.
Afterwards I saw the exchange of letters; and the order was issued directly by Poppendick. I had seen the whole subsequent correspondence. As far as it was between Dr. Ding and Poppendick, I had either written or read the letters whenever they arrived. This Danish Sturmbannfuehrer, Dr. Varnet, came to Block 50 and requested Dr. Ding to furnish him prisoners for his purposes. At this period of time Dr. Ding wanted to have as little as possible to do with things that wore outside his field of competence; and therefore he referred him to the camp physician, Dr. Schidlauski. Then indeed Dr. Varnet selected approximately fifteen experimental subjects through the camp hospital for prisoners.
For what reasons the reports then still were submitted over Dr. Ding to Poppendick I cannot say anymore at this time.
From time to time Varnet came to Buchenwald; and the rest of the time as far as I know he worked with the experimental Section 5 at Leipzig where Poppendick had authority. There the experiments themselves had the aim through the transplantation of glands to cause a change in homesexuals and to cause a complete change in these people. The SS physicians in the camp constantly made the biggest jokes about this sort of operation. Two persons died in the course on the operations which were carried out.
Q. Now witness you stated that you saw sons of the correspondence between Poppendick and Schuler in connection with these hormone experiments.
A. I believe that I can recall that I saw the first letter from Poppendick which contains the order to Schuler to assist Dr. Varnet and that I have also seen the further correspondence. If I aw remembering correctly the first letter stated that contact had been established with Mrugowsky and that Dr. Ding-Schuler could assist Dr. Varnet. It is quite possible that Dr. Ding, in accordance with instructions by Poppendick, on his part he turned to Mrugowsky for this approval.
Q. Witness, I will ask you if you have ever seen before the letter which I am now having handed to you and this is document No. 1300.
A. I have seen this letter.
Q. Did you see it in the concentration camp at Buchenwald?
A. I have seen this letter only in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp in Block 50, and I have not seen it since that time.
MR. McHANEY: We offer this document as Prosecution Exhibit No. 259.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. I will ask you, witness, if you gave this letter to the Office of Chief of Counsel?
A. No, I did not.
MR. McHANEY: If Your Honor, please, we offer this document for admission, not on the identification of this witness, but as a document captured by the Allied Forces and receive by this office in the regular course of business. I put the question to the witness to corroberate the testimony which he had previously given with respect to correspondence with he had seen from Poppendick to Ding. This letter was not obtained from the witness and at this time I would like to read into the record Document No. 1300, which is Prosecution Exhibit 289:
This letter is dated 15 July, 1944, from the defendant Poppendick to Dr. Ding. It is on the letterhead of the Reich Physician SS and Police. Subject: Hormone Research SS Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Varnet:
" To SS Sturnbannfuehrer Dr. Ding, Concentration Camp Weimar Buchenwald:
Dear Comrado Ding:
By request of the Reichsfuehrer SS the Danish doctor SS-Stubef. Dr. Varnet has been given opportunity to continue his hormone research with SS, particularly the development of the artificial gland. The Reichsfuehrer SS anticipates certain results from the treatment of homosexuals with Varnet's artificial gland. The technical preparations have came to such a point that experiments on human beings can be started within a reasonable space of time.
"As SS-Standartenfuhrer Dr. Lolling informed me the CC WeimarBuchenwald has been directed to make available 5 prisoners for SS Sturmbannfuehrer Varnet's experiments. Those prisoners will be made available to SS Stubaf. Varnet by the physician at any time.
"SS Stubaf. Varnet intends to go to Buchenwald shortly in order to make certain necessary preliminary tests on these prisoners. In case there will be special laboratory tests, you are requested to assist Varnet within tho scope of your possibilities.
"Particulars on Varnet's research were sent today to the camp physician of the Weimar-Buchenwald for his information.
"With cordial regards and Heil Hitler By orders yours Signature:
Poppendick" BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Now, witness, you have heard this document read and you will recall that it stated that five prisoners were to made available. I think your testimony heretofore has mentioned a somewhat higher figure. In view of this letter do you still think they used more than five persons for the homosexual experiments?
A. Without any doubt there must have been at least fourteen to fifteen people in the course of the time from the summer of 1944 until approximately February, 1945. Then Dr. Varnet did not appear any more at Buchenwald.
Q. And you state that two of these persons operated on died, is that correct?
A. Two persons died.
Q. Was there a report made on the result of these experiments?
A. Between Dr. Ding and Oberfuehrer Poppendick there was as exchange of letters in which Ding outlined his report on the operations of Varnet at Buchenwald, about all of his activities until, and reports wore road quite considerably from tho reports which were submitted about experiments in Block 46 regularly to the Chief Hygienist, Dr. Mrugowsky. The previously mentioned reports were provided with all necessary documents and the letters to Poppendick were only generally mentioned and it was left to Varnet himself to submit very much more detailed reports.
Q. And I think you have stated earlier that Poppendick also received a report on the phosphorous burn experiments, is that right?
A. I believe I am quite certain that I can recall it.
Q. Now, Mr. Kogan, can you amplify on the position of Mrugowsky with respect to the experiments carried on in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp, and I mean to include experiments other than those of typhus?
A. The relationship between Dr. Ding and Mrugowsky was not the same at all times. Dr. Ding had participated in the French campaign in 1940, and at that time he was the personal adjutant of the SS Divisional Medical Office, Genzken. Genzken had a special weakness form Ding and he was protecting him. Until the spring of 1943 Genzken worked in the Medical Office of the Waffen SS and he was the man in charge there, and Mrugowsky who had the of Sturmbannfuehrer at the time and Ding who was Hauptsturmbannfuehrer, both of whom were subordinated to him. This I could gather from the exchange of letters between Genzken and Ding and from statements by Dr. Ding. There was a certain rivalry between Genzken and Mrugowsky. Mrugowsky kept on advancing in grade and Genzken was pushed aside more and more. The Department, Roman Numeral 16, in Medical Main Office of the Waffen SS was given more and more independence. Finally, Mrugowsky become independent of Genzken and he became the direct man in charge of Dr. Ding.
This happened approximately between April and June, 1942. Dr. Ding still tried for a long time to keep Genzken as his Chief, that is as Chief of The Department. He tried to figure certain assignments and at least in some respects keep him independent from Mrugowsky. It was called the Chief in Charge of a Section of the Department for special assignments and approximately around that time, in the summer of 1943, I had several times the impression that Dr. Ding did not know himself any more to whom he was now exactly subordinate in all details.
A However; in the late summer of 1943, the situation had become completely clarified. Mrugowsky became the sole chief of Dr. Ding and every experiment which was carried out in Block 46, whatever concerned it, orders were given for it by Dr. Mrugowsky, that is to say, they were ordered by him, or they were suggested by firms or by Ding. They were then officially approved by Dr. Mrugowsky. Dr Ding could not start any series of experiments in Block 46 without first obtaining the approval or the order of Dr. Mrugowsky.
I believe in the beginning of 1944 he also became the Chief Hygienist of the SS Genzkin still wrote private letters to Dr. Ding. This exchange of letters was very cordial. Genzken complained about the conditions with regard to the authority in the main medical office in Berlin. And if I recall correctly, and I am not quite sure in this matter, Genzken, at one time, accepted a private invitation of Dr. Ding-Schuler to come to Buchenwald and to inspect his shop; as Dr. Ding expressed himself. He was referring to Block 46 and 50.
If this visit were suggested by Genzken and it took place, and not by order of the Reichphysician Dr. Grawitz; then it must have taken place toward the end of 1944.
Q Can you state that Genzken was informed of what was going on in Block 46 in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp prior to August, 1943?
A That is a conclusion which results in the actual fact. Until approximately April or June, 1943, Genzken was the official chief of Dr. Ding-Schuler. He gave his approval for the establishment of the Department for Typhus and Virus Research of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS at Buchenwald.
Q And I think you testified that Schuler remained in contact with Genzken after the summer of 1943?
A Yes. The correspondence lasted until the end of 1944 or the beginning of 1945.
Q So that Genzken continued to be informed of experiments in Block 46?
A In this correspondence, between Dr. Ding-Schuler and Genzken experiments were almost never mentioned at all. Dr. Ding-Schuler told Genzken about his plans to become a lecturer at some university, and in that connection there were always phrases like, "My typhus experiments have shown this and that." There were never any exact statistics. There were always things that were mentioned. These were not reports. However, Genzken knew that Dr. Ding-Schuler was now Chief of the Department for Typhus and Virus Research and had been where the vaccine was produced
Q Now, Mr. Kogon, we have mentioned the name of the Defendant Hoven from time to time during the course of this examination. However I wish you would now outline to the Tribunal a more complete picture of Hoven's position in the camp. Tell us exactly what he did and whether or not he was connected in any way with what might be called the Euthanasia program in the Camp. In other words, tell us what you knew about the Defendant Hoven.
It is very difficult to describe it in short. I shall do that in a very few sentences providing that I may make certain corrections which do not concern the matters on hand, but which might make Dr. Hoven appear in a certain light.
Approximately from 1941 on, Dr. Hoven was the Camp Physician at Buchenwald Concentration Camp. There was also a local physician there of the Waffen-SS. Occasionally the two functions were coordinated. The local physician of the Waffen-SS and the Camp Physician, for a certain period of time, as far as I know, worked together. Dr. Hoven was also the local physician of the Waffen-SS. From the very beginning when he arrived at the camp, he did not show any particular interest in the medical matters at the camp, perhaps because he did not feel himself certain in the field. He stated that quite publicly. I discovered later he had made his medical examination at a very late time and under quite peculiar circumstances which did not call for a very deep knowledge of medical matters. For example, if I am informed correctly, or if I am completely informed on this point, he has never personally performed any operations.
Dr. Hoven was a man who wanted to lead as good and as comfortable a life as possible. When he came into the prisoners' hospital, he found the prevailing conditions there. We clearly showed to him that a certain category of prisoners, namely the political prisoners, the prisoners with the red triangle, were giving all the orders practically. These political, prisoners administered the whole dispensary internally. The SS-Physician was not able to take care of all the details and have control of all those things. As a result of this, Dr. Hoven did not even make the attempt at the very beginning to do anything about it. He just appointed certain political prisoners and said everything was to be made available to them. That included food, clothing, pictures, paintings, etc.
Furthermore, Dr. Hoven, without any doubt, had some sympathy for those political prisoners who very quickly realized that in him they had found a useful tool to obtain more power against the SS in running the camp. Within a very brief period of time, Dr. Hoven, without of course being able to see all the reasons for what was going on, found himself caught in a net of intrigue and he became the tool of this category of prisoners.
As a result of this, Dr. Hoven, until the time of his arrest and even afterwards, was one of the most popular people with that category of prisoners. He was one of the most popular SS physicians. He let the prisoners have their own way most of the time.
And when members of the illegal camp admnistration on the part of the prisoners told them that he was to have this traitor, who was considered a traitor by this category of prisoners, then he had it done as if a similar order or suggestion had been given to him on the part of the SS in this capacity as camp physician.
MR. McHANEY: I think we missed a word or two in the translation. I would like to clear that up. Did you testify that the illegal inmate government, the political prisoners, on occasion used the Defendant Hoven to execute the so-called traitors to the inmate government?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. McHANEY: I do not think this was clear in the translation that came over.
Does the Court wish to adjourn at this time?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now recess until one-thirty.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 133O hours, 7 January 1947) EUGEN H0GON - Resumed DIRECT-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Mr. Hogon, before the recess, you were relating to the Tribunal cert in facts, which you know about the defendant Hoven. I wish you to continue with your story and state again Hoven's relationship to the so-called illegal inmate government in Buchenwald. I suggest that you perhaps explain a little more fully want the illegal inmate government was, since that subject has been referred to once before by another witness before this Tribunal
A. The SS in the concentration camps imposed a certain amount of self administration on the prisoners. It was not in position itself to administer everything in the camp and to keep it running reliably.
The real members of the camp from the SS side were always comparatively few people in Buchenwald; for example about one hundred and twenty five people. In many cases, however, there were 7000 to 30,000 prisoners. This internal self Administration of prisoners kept normal life, that is order within the blocks; the management of the labor detail, food supplies, distribution of food, laundry, the maintenance of certain discipline for the roll call and similar things. This was the task of the self administration. Their agents were the senior block inmates for the living blocks, the capos, the foremen for the labor details and senior camp inmates or two or three senior camp inmates. The so - called HA-1 senior carp inmate first was responsible to the SS for internal conditions within the camp. In many cases there was one so-called "kontrolleur" in addition to him, who had a sort of internal police authority.
In the early period of the camps, the SS appointed prisoners who seemed suitable for these functions. Very frequently the SS liked to work with professional criminals, the so-called "green" prisoners, because they wore "green" triangles on their left breast and right arm bands. The professional criminals were generally bitter enemies of the political prisoners, who wore red triangles on their breast and were called the "red."
ones. In almost all camps they were violent conflicts between the "reds" and the "greens". This fighting was carried out as was possible in the camp conditions. There was no law for us, it was a jungle of conflicting interests in a limited area. They were carried out with murder.
The "greens", as well as the "reds", in all the concentration camps tried to get control of the internal camp administration, the so-called self Administration of the prisoners. Ihe SS did not stop this fighting since it suited their principle, "Devour and Rule."
In Buchenwald, after four years, from 1937 to 1941, it was possible to force the "greens" back completely and to make them a sort of pariah class in the camp. These four years of conflict was met by numerous murders on both sides. If one of the two classes, the "greens" or the "reds", were able to win over an SS doctor for this fignting, this was one of the most valuable moans of asserting themselves.
The "greens" ruled any camps, the "reds" ruled only Saxonhausen, Dachau and Buchenwald; and Buchenwald primarily during these four years. The "greens" repeatedly, with the aid of SS officers, were able to gain control temporarily. The consequence every time was that dozens, and in two cases over one hundred, so-called prominent political prisoners were killed by the SS and denunciation of the "greens."
The internal administration of the prisoners was expanded more and more as the SS, through corruption and later through the agents at the front, was impeded in the execution of their duties in concentration camps. Every opportunity to put more power directly or indirectly in the hands of the prisoners was taken advantage of.
The leading class in this prisoners' self administration was, if the "reds" were in control, always the communist party would have strict discipline in its own blocks within the camp and it governed internal condition according to its own views and its own decisions. The heads of this machine almost always were determined exclusively by the Communist party.
Only in the last years -- in the last two years -- was there a certain internationalization of this so-called illegal camp administration.
The illegal camp administration, which generally consisted of an inner circle of at tho most a dozen men who kept contact with all forces in tho camp and had a very intensive extended intelligence service, permeated the ranks of the SS, as well as the ranks of the prisoners. There was no important event in the camp, no matter of what wort, which the illegal camp administration did not within a very short time -- generally within a few moments -- learn about from so-called command runners The two main centers within the camp self administration, which the illegal camp administration used, was the prisoners' office and the hospital; the office, because there all information about the prisoners was collected and was passed on to to SS from there.
For example, if someone new came to the concentration camp, they he came from the political section after a few steps to the office. A detailed questionnaire had to be filled out there and these questionnaires were sent on to the SS, but the men of the illegal camp administration received detailed knowledge from the office, which they immediately checked with what the command runners had reported from the interrogation of the new arrivals from the political section.
The prisoners hospital was more the executive center of the illegal camp administration, and the means were available to dispose of undesirable persons in the camp. The hospital in all concentration camps is one of the,-was one of the most feared installations. Most of the prisoners did not dare even to approach it. The reason was a double one, on the one hand most people in the prisoners' hospitals were killed by the SS, or the so-called selections took place there for gassing, for death transports, for executions of all kinds, and the second reason many people knew that the internal conflict in the camp was carried out through the prisoners' Hospital. Dr. Hoven worked with the political prisoners, with the illegal camp administration, and to make it even more precise with those of the illegal camp administration in Buchenwald. The agents who were sent by the illegal camp administration to the prisoners' hospital, almost all of whom belonged to the Communist Party, if these men made a suggestion to Dr. Hoven, whatever it concerned, after a short time after Dr. Hoven had begun his activity, they could count on these wishes being carried out. Furthermore, if certain political prisoners, who were in danger of their lives, were to be saved by removing them from the political section then Dr. Hoven was always willing at the more suggestion to give his signature for such an act. In this connection, I must emphasize once more that Dr. Hoven had a triple function in the Buchenwald Camp. He was camp physician, and as such was subordinate to the so-called directing physician of concentration camps in the S.S.W.V.H.A. in Berlin, Dr. Lolling; second, Dr. Hoven, from time to time represented Dr. Lolling in his function as directing physician of concentration camps. That was only for a brief period; and in the third place Dr. Hoven was deputy of Dr. Ding Schuler, to supervise the criminal station in Block 46. In this triple function,--generally, it was only a double function the first and the third, Dr. Hoven had toward the SS camp administration, Dr. Hoven was more or less independent of the SS camp administration. He cooperated with the camp administration, which consisted in part of personal friends of his, but generally he was largely independent. So if the suggestion was made to Dr. Hoven that someone should be declared unsuitable for transport he sent such a notice to the political section of the S.S. and the person in question was withdrawn from a transport for a certain period of time.
In my own case, which is only one of numerous cases, in March or April -- in April 1943, I was to be sent to Auschwitz to be gassed. Some of my friends, who were in very close contact with the illegal camp administration, immediately went to it, two men in the prisoners' hospital who belonged to the illegal camp administration and who knew me well, suggested to Dr. Hoven, who did not know me at all at that time, that I was an acute T.B. case. Dr. Hoven gave his signature, and it was reported to the political section that I was not able to be transported. This was done three times because the postponement by the political section was for three or four weeks only in such case, until finally I came to the vaccine station and my liquidation was postponed to the end of the war by the R.S.H.A. In such cases Dr. Hoven was a tool of the illegal camp administration. One of the most striking cases, which was systematic for conditions there, was in 1942 when the second camp leader Planel suddenly took steps against the political prisoners in the camp, replaced them in the prisoners self-administration by official criminals, and then later became a violent struggle against the reds. The political prisoners approached Dr. Hoven, and in the course of a few months in which a few dozen prominent political prisoners were killed by the greens, it was possible to overthrow the rule of the greens by intrigues; and Dr. Hoven aided-in breaking the rule of the greens by a counter terror. From that time on there was never a rule of the greens in the internal administration of the Camp Buchenwald again. Dr. Hoven in his function as camp physician, of course, also carried out suggestions and instructions of the S.S. The prisoners always tried, as far as possible, to save people from these death actions which were ordered. It happened that people who were disliked in the camp were included in the ranks of the death candidates. As conditions were Dr. Hoven could not know anything about these things. The euthanasia program, which I mentioned before, which was called 14 14 F 13, as far as I can recall was in 1943, not 1942, but I am not quite certain,--in the summer. Four transports of about 90 people each were set up, which as we learned very quickly were sent to an institution at or near Bernhur to be gassed, and in the first transport there were a large number of permanent political- prisoners, of which I shall mention only one, a good friend of mine, the security director of Salzburg, Dr. Bichiny.
The people were gassed at Bernburg. Their property, including their false teeth and the pieces of bread which they had in their pockets, after six or eight hours came back in the trucks that the people had been taken away in, came back to Buchenwald. The program 14 F 13 was carried out through the prisoners' hospital. I myself never had a function in the prisoners? hospital. My knowledge comes from my close contact with members of the illegal camp administration and with friends of such members. Other death programs took place in the camp on occasion outside of the experimental station in which the camp physician had some function or another either of selection or of execution, I personally do not know, to what extent Dr. Hoven was involved in each of these individual cases. I must point out that the camp physician always had two or three assistant doctors of the S.S., and it happened repeatedly that these assistant doctors were either strong S.S, men or independently of the responsible camp physician, were also tools of the illegal camp administration. This, as far as responsibility is concerned, the programs were a little confused, and a former prisoner from the prisoners' hospital who experienced these things himself would have to testify about them. The best would be a man who had a similar position to mine, a prisoners' clerk, doctors' clerk, because through the hands of these clerks went all the records.
Q. Now, on the invalid transports which you have mentioned in connection with Action 14 F 13, can you state with certainly that Hoven knew about these transports?
A. Yes, I know that for the following reason: Suddenly I believe with the third transports a very large number of prominent political prisoners were to be incorporated in these transports. The SS made out the list and turned it over to the prisoners office so that the persons concerned could be informed the evening before that on the next morning at 8:00 o'clock after the roll call they were to be at the camp get.
Our intelligence service always gave us the opportunity to know the special significance of such announcements. When the list of this transport was known by the illegal camp administration an appeal was made at once to Dr. Hoven, and I know that it was thanks to the intervention of Dr. Hoven with the SS camp administration that this group of political prisoners were taken of the transport list.
I also know from the clerks of the prisoners hospital that Dr. Hoven had something to do with Action 14 F 13. At a much later time, in the first days after the liberation of the Concentration Camp Buchenwald about on the 16th of April 1945, I was given carbon copies of an exchange of letters which Dr. Hoven had with the chief physician of the so-called mental institution in Bernburg, a certain Dr. Eberl. This correspondence shows clearly that Dr. Hoven was connected with this action. In what function and to what extent his activity went, I cannot say.
Q. Now, you have mentioned an instance when Hoven was instrumental in removing some Reds from one of these invalid transports. Do you know of any occasion when Hoven saw to it that some Greens or perhaps some other inmates were included in these transports?
A. I do not know of any individual case, but I do know the fact; it was a regular phenomenon in the camp that people who were undesirable to the illegal camp administration for any reason, but who, for any reason could not be killed within the camp, were put on such lists for death transports, so that the death of these people occurred outside of the camp of Buchenwald.