A. I can see only the numbers "17-9-42".
Q. Would that not indicate to you 17 September 1942?
A. Yes, that's tho way I should construe that.
Q. Now, what else is in that pencil notation?
There is a German Gothic script "V". Then there is a German "R" and an "S" in Gothic script, and a "B" and an "L".
Q. Can you say what that stands for?
A. No, Your Honors, I do not know what that means.
Q. On tho English translation of that document which has been supplied to the Tribunal, at tho head of tho document, appears tho words "died - D I E D - 17 September 1942". Does anything of that sort appear on the front page at the top of that document?
A. So far as I can read here, I see, as I say, a small "v" and a small "r" and a small "s". Then a capital "B" and an "L". That's all I see.
Q. Very well, thank you.
Mr. Hardy ............
WITNESS(Interrupting) All of these letters are in Gothic script.
JUDGE SEBRING: Mr. Hardy, I direct your attention to tho English translation of Document NO 2313.
MR. HARDY: Yes, Your Honor.
JUDGE SEBRING: Do you note, at the top, the words "Died 17 September 1942 "?
MR. HARDY: Yes, Your Honor,
JUDGE SEBRING: Where did that come from?
MR. HARDY: I imagine it came from the certificate of translation - the translator, Frank W. Young. I was about to take issue on tho point before you took it up with tho defendant. Duo to the explanations now, it won't be necessary for me to do so.
JUDGE SEBRING: Take issue with whom?
MR. HARDY: With the defendant on tho notation.
Can I ask tho interpreters to make an attempt to decipher tho German words on tho top of this document?
THE PRESIDENT: You may.
MR. HARDY: There's a handwritten notation.
INTERPRETER: These could be the letters "v r s t r b" with a period which would be a possible abbreviation for tho German word "verstorben" which means died.
Q.- Do you know whether or not this prisoner Kisiliczka died after these beatings, Doctor?
A.- No, I don't know the name. I only know that there was strict prohibition for the prisoners, provision against the prisoners being allowed to be taken into the hospital after the beatings, However, I always did so myself.
Q.- How severe were the beatings?
A.- What do you mean by severe?
Q.- Well, could ten lashes be sufficient to contribute to the cause of death of one of these inmates?
A.- I shouldn't think so.
Q.- How about twenty-five?
A.- That I cannot tell you. I have already told you all I know about this.
Q.- Did they get hospital treatment after twenty-five lashes?
A.- That was forbidden. But whenever I personally could I did take the prisoners into the hospital, if they needed care. That is a well known fact.
Q.- Did a person usually get care after twenty-five lashes?
A.- Certainly.
Q.- What did you have to do, Doctor, with the construction of Block 50, did you have anything to do with that?
A.- Yes, I was the deputy in Block 50.
Q.- Did you have anything to do with the construction?
A.- I was imprisoned before then, but I recruited all the workers there, including foreign scientists, and all the prisoners who wore in danger. I didn't go to Block 50 on my own initiative, but on the explicit wishes of the political resistance camp management.
Q.- Did you conduct the business necessary for the construction and furnishing of equipment for Block 50?
A.- No, the SS camp administration did that, but the rooms in Block 50 were excellent. They were fixed up with illegal work shops, and so forth, but that is very difficult to explain now. All the groups worked hand in hand with each other.
Q.- Did you ever have any dealings with, for instance, the Chief of the Construction Bureau of the Waffen-SS and police concerning the building of Block 50?
A.- Most of the time Dr. Ding was there, but I was his deputy, for the reason I have already given you, namely I took the job for the sake of the illegal camp management and the resistance movements. The important thing was that we should safeguard the prisoners and that was my point of view, and that was why I was there.
Q.- I have a document here which is Document NO-1944, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 125 for identification; you will note here in this document several letters dealing with the equipment used in Block 50 and the furnishings of Block 50, and the general construction of Block 50, and in most instances it is referred to you. We note on page 3 that the letter is addressed to you; on page 4 you were mentioned in that letter; now, just what was your capacity concerning the construction of Block 50, and the equipping or the furnishing of it?
A.- I have already told you I was the deputy. I usually left this up to the prisoners there, busying myself with it personally as .Little as possible.
Q.- The prisoners weren't building Block 50, were they, that was on orders from Berlin that the SS build it? Do you mean the prisoners were engaged in the contraction of Block 50 and in the production of typhus vaccine and not the hygienists of the SS?
A.- You misunderstood me, Mr. Hardy, let me tell you that I have made efforts to be Ding's deputy in Block 50 in order to be able to help the illegal camp management. The reason for this was to save endangered prisoners and prominent foreign politicians by taking them to Block 50 as workers.
That this was done you know. That if in the course of this work I did some administrative work that is quite understandable. I was advised in all this by the prisoners. We received suggestions. There was the Jewish engineer who was mentioned already several times, Max Hoechster. I let him take care of this, because I knew much too little about it.
Q.- You have Document NO-265, the Ding diary before you, Dr. Hoven?
A.- What page?
Q.- This will be page 39 of the English under the date 17 March 1942, concerning the visit of Professor Rose and Professor Gildemeister to Buchenwald?
A.- I have it. I have it.
Q.- Now, we note that in that entry that Dr. Ding was sick with spotted fever and was in the hospital in Berlin, is that correct?
A.- That is what it says here.
Q.- Who conducted Professor Gildemeister and Professor Rose around during their visit?
A.- I didn't. I assume it was one of our doctors, I didn't do it simply because I could give these gentlemen no information about what they wanted to know, because I understood nothing about it. As a doctor I didn't want to lay myself open in that way. My professional reputation would have suffered. My reason was only this, so I assume some other doctor took them around. Professor Gildemeister came around several times.
Q.- Well, now, the entry just above that indicates that persons were infected with virus and that an experimental series was in progress on the 3rd of March, and it says: "I didn't see the results of that first experimental series until 19 March." Now, when Dr. Ding was in the hospital at Berlin, the entry 17 March states that you were the supervisor during his absence; now, isn't it true from those entries that those experiments were underway while you were in a position of supervisor during the absence of Dr. Ding?
A.- No, he had already indoctrinated his people, particularly the capo Dietzsch. I didn't know anything about this, consequently I could not make the arrangements, and Ding, of course, know that, Q.- Were you present on the occasion that the inmates wore infected with lice, that is the day the lice in the cages were tied to the thighs of the inmates in Block 46, so as to infect them with the lice of the second shipment; did you see that infection?
A.- I was told this when I was in the hospital.
Q.- Kindly answer my question, did you see the infection, did you see the mean sitting or standing or whatever position they were in with a cage strapped to their thighs with lice therein, and thereby causing infection, did you see that?
A.- They were sitting on chairs with cages strapped to their thighs and I saw it. I was there. I was smuggled there in order to save the political prisoner who was among the experimental subjects.
Q.- Now, were you indicted by the SS Police Court after your arrest?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Were you served with an indictment?
A.- I was at the Gestapo and I received some sort of red slip of paper.
Q.- Were any charges ever read off to you?
A.- Not read to me, no. No charges were read to me. I told you once in the interrogation that I got this red slip of paper, and I have also told you what the ostensible reasons were that they had to put me on trial, namely the killing of the three -
Q.- Let's go to these other things first. You were arrested in September 1943, is that correct?
A.- 12 September.
Q.- Did you ever go to trial.
A.- Yes.
Q.- When?
A.- One year later.
Q.- When was your trial, on the 11st September?
A.- No, earlier, the beginning of September 1944.
Q.- And then you were sentenced as a result of that trial?
A No, I wasn't. The trial was squashed, they were going to put me on trial on political charges and then I was sent to Buchenwald as a prisoner.
Q Have you ever seen the results of your trial, that is the report written by the judges, I suppose; your trial that was held in September of 1944?
A I never saw it, but the reports that were written about a Gestapo and SS trial were written up in whatever way they pleased.
Q Who tried you; what court?
A The Highest SS and Police Court.
Q Who as the judge?
A I don't know his name.
Q You mentioned Konrad Morgan; what did Morgen have to do with it?
A He was the Prosecutor. That was a wonderful piece of cooperation they had in the SS, the pre-trial judge also became the Prosecutor.
Q Well, then, Dr. Morgen was the judge actually; wasn't he?
A No, ho was the Prosecutor.
Q I have here a Document No. 2366, Dr. Hoven, that I want you to look at. This will be offered for identification. This, Your Honor, is a voluminous indictment in the case of SS Standartenfuehrer Koch vs. Dr. Hoven. I am only going to refer to a few excerpts from it. The reproduction of the German is rather difficult. I have only one copy for defense counsel, the photostat and the English excerpts will be very brief.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, what is the purpose, what is the evidentiary value of this document?
MR. HARDY: The document lists everything that Dr. Hoven did while he was at Buchenwald, as charged by the SS.
JUDGE SEBRING: Yes, but did not the man say he was acquitted and was not tried?
MR. HARDY: That is not what these records bear out, Your Honor. To accompany this, Dr. Hoven, I have another document No. 2380, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit No. 536 for identification, No. 527, pardon me.
DR. GAWLIK: I object to this document, to document No. 2366. I question the probative value of this since it originates from the Gestapo, an organization which in the verdict of the I.M.T. was declared a criminal organization. The Prosecution would have to first prove that this organization and the report that was drawn up by the officers of this organization are credible persons who can be believed. It must also prove that no criminal goals wore being perused in this document and in this trial of Dr. Hoven. I have tried to show in the conduct of my defense that Himmler through the Gestapo was trying to exterminate the political prisoners in tho concentration camps and everything that was opposed to this goal of his was combated by Himmler and the Gestapo by every means at their disposal. That is tho contents of this document and I cannot see what purpose the Prosecution is persuing unless it is going to aline the Gestapo on the side of the Prosecution. I see neither the purpose of the probative value of this document.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course an indictment itself is no proof of anything, but the proceedings which follow the indictment might be of probative value. In any event, the matter of probative value of any document present in evidence may be argued and will be finally determined by the Tribunal and if it has no probative value it will be disregarded.
DR. GAWLIK: But, this is an indictment, Your Honor, you have just said that the probative value must be decided by tho Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: It may be part of some subsequent proceedings, which is not indicated, in any event it is not offered in evidence, but merely marked for identification.
JUDGE SEBRING: Mr. Hardy, is it your purpose to prove that based upon their indictment this document is some final judgment of some court of jurisdiction?
MR. HARDY: The defendant stated that because of some inquiry on the part of Konrad Morgen, SS Judge and SS Hauptstumfuehrer, he was then dismissed and sent to the concentration camp for politic! reasons. I don't see any indication of that in the report signed by Dr. Morgen, SS Judge of the reserve Morgen imposed on Koch and I want to have Dr. Hoven explain his statements as opposed to the statements contained in these documents and explain some of the reasons for the accusations made in these documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q Dr. Hoven, taking the voluminous photostatic copy of the alleged indictment; will you turn to page 51 of that report?
A There is no pagination in this document that I can see.
Q I think there is the pagination in the upper right hand corner.
A Oh, yes, I see, 51.
Q Yes, 51.
Now, you will note on page 51 the paragraph concerning your activities and in that paragraph is a statement: "Besides Hoven had a bad conscience because of the executions he directly imposed upon Koch for carrying them out;" what does the investigator mean by that statement?
A I have already told you that the Gestapo and Dr. Morgen carried in the indictment anything they wanted to. I was Koch's greatest opponent, that was known throughout Buchenwald. Koch hated mo fervently because he could not prove anything regarding my political activities against the SS. For this reason he charged me with these killings, the killings of Freudemann and May I mentioned before who were known as Jew slaughters. Because I would not give him the names of the prisoners who had actually done the killings, he charged me with it in the course of the proceedings against me in the pre-trial proceedings.
I can give you the exact date for this, I shall always remember it, 28 December, 1943, after an air attack on Frankfurt on the Main in the presence of his secretary.
Q Let us be more brief.
A I am just getting to the main point.
Q Just a moment.....
THE PRESIDENT: Please allow the witness to finish his answer. The witness may continue his answer.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q Continue, witness, but let me repeat my question and lot your answer be brief; did you impose on Koch to carry out executions? That simply can be answered with "yes" or "no".
A I was going to continue what I had to say and then I would answer you right away.
This evening, in the presence of his secretary whom I met in the course of the interrogation, Dr. Morgen said he found out from a phone call that his house in Frankfurt had been bombed by the American Air Force. Then, he came back into the room in an enraged state, shouted at me and said, I don't know what curses he used against me, but he said, if you killed the American swines for that you would deserve nothing but God's thanks, however, in the meantime if ten political prisoners are killed that is something we might talk about because they were the worst enemies of the SS. He said, "You killed political prisoners, "and that it was none of my business." He was so excited and inconsistent in what he was saying, my confidence was shaken completely. I can only bring this up now, because this man is saying now he worked for the welfare of the prisoners, however, as Himmler's personal deputy he simply furthered the extermination plan which Himmler outlined for the concentration camps, however, the exterminations were not meant for informers or professional criminals but for Jews and political prisoners.
Now, to answer your question directly, I never directly imposed on Koch.
Q It is not necessary for you to go on to such an extensive length to answer my question when it is as simple as that, Doctor. Now, on page 67, we note a reference made to Schaufelmeier; did you know Schaufelmeier?
A This is a killing with which Dr. Morgen charged me also.
Q Did you know Schaufelmeier?
A I cannot remember him, I had nothing to do with him.
Q Did you know Titz?
A I believe that was a man who worked under Koch, if I remember correctly; is that so?
Q I am asking you, Doctor?
A I think he was an orderly who worked for Koch, I do not know for sure, but if you will tell me I will know if I am right.
Q Did you participate in the murder of Titz?
A If this is the Titz I am thinking of, who was a servant of Koch, then I can tell you he is still alive. I saw him by accident on the day when I was taken prisoner. He is still alive, he is fine.
Q Who is Sommer?
A. He was a supervisor in the bunker?
Q An SS man?
A Yes.
Q Is he one and the same Sommers who is now on trial here in Nurnberg?
A No, he has nothing to do with him.
Q Did you know the camp commandant's wife, Frau Polk?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever have any relations with her?
DR. GAWLIK: I object to that question. I don't know what probative value the question is supposed to have.
THE PRESIDENT: What probative value could that have, Mr. Hardy?
MR. HARDY: To show the reason for the animosity the defendant contends ho had with the camp commandant.
THE PRESIDENT: It appears to mo immaterial and the objection is sustained.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q Did the prisoner doctors contribute to the writing of your doctor's thesis?
A No.
Q You are certain of that?
A Yes.
Q Did you participate in the killing of Collinet?
A No, but since investigations of this case were immediately undertaken against the illegal camp management, and I wanted to keep the prisoners from getting into any trouble and since the Gestapo had already arrested me I took it upon myself. I did admit some things I was asked and the things I didn't admit they said I did any way. That is the way they work. May I make an explanation of this, Mr. Hardy?
Q Go ahead.
A I want to toll you so that you will understand that better. I don't want to use up the Tribunal's time describing my experiences with the Gestapo when I was in prison because you probably know about the methods of the Gestapo but I want to remind you, Mr. Hardy, what their measures were, their practices. Your American fellow citizen, Frau Mildred Fish who married a German scientist von Harneck. She was going to teach in the University of Baltimore and is known for her translation of Edmund's "Drums along the Mohawk" and Stone's novel, "Lust for Life", which she translated into German. She was involved in some affair with her husband in a fight against Hitler, and sentenced to six years, after having been in the hands of the Gestapo. When she was taken by the Gestapo she had blond hair. She was a pretty young woman and loft for the trial with white hair after Hitler had commuted the sentence and had condemned Mrs. Fish to death. Now these are the sort of methods the Gestapo used so you can understand such a document as this can come out of the Gestapo and it is pretty harmless in comparison with their other stuff.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, returning to the subject of punishment in Buchenwald, with what instrument were these floggings administered? How was it made and of what material?
A It was a leather whip. I can't tell whether there was a steel red in the middle or only a wooden one. That I don't know.
Q How long was it?
AAbout so long. (Indicating)
Q Approximately one meter?
A Yes, roughly, yes.
Q How heavy was it?
A I don't believe I have over picked up one. I can't really say how heavy it was.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A short recess was taken)
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, the Tribunal anticipated you a moment. It is unimportant. The Tribunal is now in session. Counsel, you may proceed.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HARDY:
Q Dr. Hoven, during the course of this examination -
A There is a noise in the system, Mr. Hardy. I can't understand you very well. There is such a noise over the earphones. There must be a ventilator.
MR. HARDY: We will have the ventilators turned off.
Q Dr. Hoven, during the course of your examination here you have related with considerable frankness your activities at Buchenwald. Now I want you to be as equally frank in the question which I am now about to put to you. You were in Buchenwald in one capacity or another from October 1939 to September 1943. During that period of time you must have seen many dignitaries and officials of the Government, the Party, and the SS come and go to and from the camp. You undoubtedly talked to many of them or with others who knew the purposes of their visits, and also you nay have had the occasion or must have had the occasion to see many orders, decrees and directives and correspondence concerning the activities of the camp.
Now, from what you have seen, read or heard from authoritative sources concerning Buchenwald can you tell us what governmental or Party or military or SS officials, organizations, departments or agencies had knowledge of the program of medical experimentation which was carried on with the prison inmates at Buchenwald?
A I shall, of course, give you information about everything I know. I am the last one to protect the SS or who has any reason to do so.
Q Did you ever see any dignitaries visiting Buchenwald?
A The Reichsstatthalter Sauckel who died in the meantime, the Prince of Waldeck and Piermont who was in Buchenwald frequently because he was the highest judge of the Fulda-Werra, district "SS-Oberabschnitt" and the camp commander of Buchenwald Koch was his deputy as judge. There was a great enmity between these two.
Koch was the one who finally lost. Then Heydrich visited the camp and about fifty to sixty high Wehrmacht officers.
JUDGE SEBRING: Who were some of them?
THE WITNESS: I was not introduced to them. They had the ranks of Generals and Colonels. Also physicians of the Wehrmacht visited tho camp. As far as I saw, they visited the hospital.
Q (By Mr. Hardy) Did any cf them visit tho experimental station?
A I heard that tho Prince Waldeck visited it; then Dr. Morgen whom I already mentioned before; also the so-called chief judge of the Prince Waldeck from Kassel, a Dr. Paulmann (spelling) P-a-u-l-m-a-n-n Paulmann.
Q Did any of the Wehrmacht physicians visit the experimental station?
A Of those who are present here?
Q No, of those who visited Buchenwald that you spoke about.
A I didn't understand that question, Mr. Hardy.
Q You stated that Wehrmacht physicians visited Buchenwald. Did they inspect or have the opportunity to see tho experimental station at Block 46?
A I cannot recall whether they visited Block 46 because at that time I was in the hospital and I showed them the hospital.
Q Did you ever sec any correspondence or orders or directives or any other communications or literature which indicated to you that the Wehrmacht or any members thereof had knowledge of the program of medical experimentation in Block 46?
A No, I did not see that. I assume that later on when I was already arrested this must have gone over Block 50, if that's how it was. I never saw any correspondence I didn't even know that they had a diary on Block 46.
Q Who in the SS had knowledge of Block 46 and tho experimental work going on there? Did you have any knowledge as to that?
AAbout the experiments?
Q Yes.
A I cannot remember anybody at the moment. Whether I was told that somebody was there. I believe in September 1943 Mrugowsky was there. I know for certain that he was in Buchenwald at the beginning of September 1943. I met him on that occasion of his visit.
Q Well, was it generally know amongst the medical departments of the SS that an experimental program was being conducted at Buchenwald? Were you in a position to ascertain that?
A Do you mean the physicians who were at Buchenwald? Of course, they knew it.
Q How about other SS officials? Did they have. knowledge of medical experiments which were conducted on prisoner inmates at Buchenwald?
A Well, the camp commandant frequently got visits, also visits of higher persons. I assume that he told them that there was an experimental station but I cannot say that for sure. You have to consider that actually I was mostly in the hospital and concerned myself with the problems of the prisoners mostly. We were happy if we didn't see those big shots.
Q Well, from what you have seen, read, or heard from various sources, can you tell us what officials had knowledge of the program of Euthanasia or the program of extermination of prisoner inmates?
A I told you, Mr. Hardy, when we met for the first time that I believe it was a slight error when you asked me "Do you know about the Euthanasia program of the German people"? At the moment I didn't know what you were referring to and then you said "When was action 14F13 started?" And, I told you I thought at the end of 1941 but about the Euthanasia Program of the German people I knew, peruse, nothing more than many Germans knew, namely that in insane asylumns the patients were supposed to be exterminated or had been killed. These were rumors, I even believe that I heard it for the first time from inmates themselves who had gathered it from some kind of notices in the newspapers and found out that something must be wrong.
But this action 14F13 - you want to know who knew about that? What offices?
Q Yes.
A Well, the order, I was told, was given by Himmler. The inspectorate in Berlin must have known about it, therefore.
Q Which inspectorate is that, doctor?
A That was the Inspector Gluecks at the time.
Q Did you ever work for Gluecks?
A No. I know Gluecks because he visited Buchenwald two or three times.
Q Did he know about the existence of action 14F13?
A Mr. Hardy, of course, I cannot tell you from my own knowledge. But, according to all the connections which I found out about he must have known about it.
Q Is there anyone else you feel must have know about it? How about Grawitz? Did you understand me, doctor?
A I understand you. I am just thinking it over. I don't know it from my own knowledge. I don't know whether I can give you an answer which only expresses my assumptions.
Q Were you in a position to ever ascertain whether the high command of the Wehrmacht had any knowledge of these matters of experimentation and extermination?
A No, that I don't know.
Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not high SS officials, Himmler, Heydrich, and medical officials like Grawitz had any knowledge of this matter?
A Himmler certainly because he ordered that. At least that is what we were told, that is certain.
Q Do you have any knowledge whether the civilian sectors, men like the Minister of the Interior Frick, later Himmler, and doctors therein, Dr. Conti, for instance, had any knowledge of these matters?
A I can't tell you that from my own knowledge. I never had any. thing to do with them and didn't know them either.
Q Then you don't feel you are in a position to inform us as to the knowledge of the Government, Party, military, SS officials and organizations?
AAs far as action 14F13 is concerned?
Q And experiments, yes.
A Mr. Hardy, I told you everything that I know.
Q I have no further questions.
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q Witness, do you have Before you Prosecution Document NO 2312which has Been marked for identification as Prosecution Rebuttal Exhibit 524?
A No, I don't.
Q Will the page please hand that to the witness.
You will notice on the first page of that document appears ....
MR. HARDY: (interrupting): Your Honor, I don't Believe he has 2312. I had only one other copy.
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q Do you have it now Before you?
A I have 2312 and 2313.
Q Do you notice that on the first page of that document appears the wording "reason for protective custody"?
A Yes, your Honor. After "Headquarters of the Concentration Camps".
Q Exactly. Now, under there appear ten categories as follows under the heading "Reason for protective custody" there appear the categories: "political", "Politically revertible", "Professional criminal", "Bible researcher", "Rachial polluter", "homosexual", "emigrant", "expulsion", "work shirker", and, finally, "care -CARE". All of those are listed under the title "reason for protective custody", and I assume that this entire document deals with prisoners in Buchenwald who were Being held there under protective custody. Is my assumption correct?
A Yes, that's correct, your Honor.
Q From you understanding of the situation under "reason for protective custody" what would be meant by the word "political"?
A They were the inmates who were arrested for political reasons. In the camp they were designated as "political prisoners". The term "political" refers to the German prisoners as well as to the foreign political prisoners.