There was no one among them who aid not have many lives on his conscience. The Prisoners Committee and illegal camp administration combated such people and I helped them against such people. In full awareness of my responsibility I helped in the counter action against 13-F-14 only in the interest of the prisoners and in collaboration with them. I prevented death transports, some times the very same transport several times. I took prisoners into the hospital under false diagnosis in order to protect them from death through the Gestapo or SS. I helped German and foreign Jews whenever I could without consideration of a position which would be more than illogical as at the same time other prisoners had been killed those who played this terrible part in the camp. My whole conduct would have been inconsistent and senseless if it were not based on the single motive which always ruled me - that is, to help people who deserved it and to participate in the elimination of those who were nothing but murderers and criminals by instinct.
Q.- Were these killings carried out because these traitors and stool pigeons betrayed their comrades to the SS?
A.- The betrayal of their comrades was not the reason.
Q.- Then why were these stool pigeons and traitors killed?
A.- In order to prevent more political prisoners being killed, which would have happened if they had remained alive.
Q.- Did you make a distinction between decent and indecent prisoners?
A.- No.
Q.- You heard Dr. Horn. He said that you had a better name for the indecent prisoners. What was that name?
A.- The name used by the prisoners for those who Dr. Horn mentioned was of three kinds: Informers, traitors and stool pigeons.
Q.- In what way was it determined that these prisoners actually were stool pigeons, informers or traitors?
A.- As a rule a representative of the illegal camp administration determined this in the first place. But, I should like to say right now that every case was different. I can only describe this very generally. If the Gestapo section of the camp administration carried out arrests or transferred people to the stone quarries by way of punishment the illegal camp administration endeavored to find out the cause. I must add that in the course of time the prisoners and I were able to put representatives in important offices of the SS camp administration, But I should like to emphasize that in spite of all our efforts we did not succeed in having agents in all offices. Those agents reported to the illegal camp administration who was responsible for those arrests or transfers. In the first investigations the illegal camp administration acted quite independently. In many cases I had no knowledge of the matter. As a rule I was involved only when the illegal camp administration with the aid of its agents was not able to determine the cause of the arrests. In these cases I went to the camp commandant, the head of the protective custody camp, the Gestapo section, and tried to find out the cause. The activity of these stool pigeons and traitors was now supervised by the illegal camp administration. They warned the traitors against going on. In some cases I had agents warn these traitors and stool pigeons. In many cases the illegal camp administration had the contacts of these traitors in the camp broken. Thus they were often unable to inform the Gestapo or other sections of the camp administration. On the other hand these traitors did not want to lose the benefits which they got from their activities. Therefore, they gave the Gestapo or some other office of the SS camp administration false information. The counter actions of this was that prisoners who had in no way acted against the SS were arrested and killed. This made their activities so horrible. If they had betrayed prisoners who were members of illegal German or foreign resistance movements at least they would have had the appearance of justification but the names of these prisoners were so secret that even the informers learned one or another name only by accident.
But since they wanted to have successes to show to the SS or Gestapo perfectly innocent prisoners had to suffer, persons who sometimes did not even know that there was a resistance movement in the camp. Therefore, there was general uncertainty in the camp and fear. Every prisoner had to expect to be arrested on the basis of such false accusations. After the traitors had repeatedly been warned in various sections by representatives of the illegal camp administration and Prisoners Committee and they refused to stop their activity, the Committee, the representatives of the foreign groups, reach the decision to kill such prisoners in order to save the lives of a number of decent prisoners, in this way, prisoners who otherwise would have been irrevocably lost.
Q. Mr. President, to support what the witness has just said and to prove the activities of these informers and traitors, I offer Document Hoven #9 as Exhibit 7. It is on page 33 of your document book. It is an affidavit submitted by the prosecution in Case IV as Document NO. 2122, Exhibit 179, an affidavit of a certain Karl Adam Roeder who describes the activities of such a traitor and informer. I should like to call the attention of the Tribunal especially to #7. He speaks of a certain Christian Knoll who was under Section 51 of the German penal code. I may add that this was a person considered legally irresponsible. Then I quote:
"Zill, the leader of the protective custody camp, made use of this man as an instrument for murdering hundreds of Jewish and other prisoners. I myself and a number of other prisoners were witnesses when Zill once asked him when he intended to come for his next meal (one chunk of bread and one piece of sausage. This meant that Knoll was to muder a round figure of one hundred prisoners before he got this meal. This Knoll answered: "I have 97 and shall quickly dispatch the remaining 3 by noon." At noon we saw him go into the orderly room (office building) and we also saw him return from the orderly room with the meal received. I myself saw repeatedly in the camp how he ill treated prisoners in the most heinous way with the unambiguous intention to kill them. In his capacity as Capo of the plantation he took an active part in the shooting of numerous Jewish prisoners by pulling the prisoners' caps from their heads and throwing them across the chain of sentries, so as to give the sentry a reason for shooting."
Witness, was the activity of the informers and traitors, killed by you or with your knowledge, similar to the description given in this affidavit?
A. Similar. There were many varieties.
Q. Now, I come back to your affidavit, Document No. 429, Exhibit 281, in Document Book 12, page 1. I should like to discuss #10 which is on page 5. Please read #10 and tell me whether it is true that one purpose of killings was to keep prisoners in key positions as this paragraph might indicate, and what do you have to add to this paragraph which is only a brief summary?
A. This gives a false picture. It shows only one side. It was impossible, in an interrogation, to describe true whole environment in which I lived. It is impossible to summarize this description in a brief affidavit. It is quite true that prisoners who were in key positions were envied by other prisoners and that traitors made false accusations against such prisoners to the camp administration, as well as to the Gestapo, in order to have such prisoners arrested and killed. A typical example of this is Kogan himself who admitted when he was examined that I saved him three times. Because of the position which he held, Kogon was envied by many prisoners and the most nonsensical rumors circulated about Kogon and accusations were made against him. Such traitors and stool pigeons, however, worked not only against prisoners in key positions. That was the minor part of the accusations made in the camp. Kuschnia-Kuschnarev, for example, betrayed Russian prisoners of war, among others, who did not hold any key positions. Freudemann and May betrayed Jewish prisoners, none of whom held any key position. It is, of course, extremely difficult to sum this up in a few sentences. I tried to describe the conditions during my interrogations and, on the basis of this statement which I made, the affidavit was drawn up, not by me but by the prosecution, as I have already said. I did not know what the prosecution was interested in.
I did not know that the statement would be used against me. I had no reason to assume that it would be and, therefore, I did not consider it important to defend myself. As far as the statement was read to me, it was not incorrect, but merely incomplete. Therefore, I signed it assuming that I would have an opportunity, in case there was any lack of clarity here, to make a more detailed statement.
Q. And what was the further reason that you did not realize that this statement under #10 might give a wrong impression?
A. Well, one reason was that I didn't understand some of the English words.
Q. Please toll the Tribunal who Kuschnia-Kuschnarev was and what role he played in the Camp-Buchenwald?
A. Kuschnia-Kuschnarev was a Russian immigrant. Why he was in the camp, I do not know. He was already there when I came to the camp. In the course of time, he had succeeded in creating for himself an important position with the camp administration. No one less than then Chief of the Gestapo and the SD, Heydrich, had recommended him to the camp commandant. He wont in and out of the commandant's office without appointment which was not permitted even to the SS officers. This small example shows clearly what position Kuschnia-Kuschnarev had. He took advantage of his powerful position for personal advantages and betrayed prisoners to the camp commandant, the Gestapo and the head of the protective custody camp. Kuschnarev had no inhibitions only his own advantage. He had unrestrained hatred, especially against the political prisoners, especially the foreign prisoners. The main treacherous activity of Kuschnarev reached its climax when the Russian prisoners of war came to Buchenwald.
Kuschnia-Kuschnarev received the assignment from the Gestapo to pick out the commissars, especially Jewish commissars, from among the Russian prisoners of war. I do not believe that there were any commissars left among the Russian prisoners of war who had already gone through several camps. In order to prove his efficiency and to maintain his position with the camp commandant, Kuschnir-Kuschnarev pointed out a large number of these prisoners of war as commissars and he said that the others were all really convinced Bolshevists. kuschnir-Kuschnarev was repeatedly warned by the illegal camp administration, especially representatives of the foreign prisoners. In this case of Kuschnir-Kuschnarev, the foreign agents took an especially important part. On the basis of his important position, we had to proceed very carefully. I cannot describe the details. I don't know them. The result of the warning was that the agents who had approached him were arrested and killed by the Gestapo. The head of the Illegal camp administration, a former German Reichstag delegate Walter Kraemer, whom I have already mentioned, who was in charge of the hospital under me for more than a year and with whom I was on very good terms and with whom I collaborated closely, was a victim of Kuschnarev's activity as an informer. Kuschnarev's did not stop his murderous work. There was only one solution and that was to do away with him.
Q. Was Kuschnir-Kuschnarev a member of the United Nations?
A. No, he was a Russian immigrant.
Q. How was Kuschnir-Kuschnarev killed?
A. By an injection with evipan or phenol, I don't know which.
Q. I remind you of the testimony of Dr. Kogan on page 1204 of the English transcript; Dr. Kogan testified that you killed other persons at the suggestion of the SS, is that true?
A. That was quite impossible, since I was collaborating with the prisoners. As for the prisoners whom the Gestapo and SS did not like whom they wanted to eliminate and against whom they had informers or agents working, I fought against these agents together with the prisoners during the whole time I was in Buchenwald, and I saved the prisoners from the Gestapo and the SS. And Kogan must know that best, because he was one of them, one of the people who were on the liquidation list of the SS, and he has also testified how it came about that he was in a position, to testify here, because I helped him against the SS and Gestapo and kept him off the transports, not once but three times, and it would be asking too much if on the one hand I risk my life to save prison rs and on the other hand kill them. The risk of my life would be unnecessary; but I need only have folded my hands, watched the informers and threatened collaborators with the SS and Gestapo to gradually clear the whole camp of German and foreign prisoners. But the Gestapo for a long time, especially since the death of their collaborator Kuschnir-Kuschnarev, discussed me and the death transports from which I had removed many people did not pass unnoticed in the course of time. The Gestapo had for some time been collecting evidence against me. My agents who worked for the Gestapo or SS had found that out from statements made by the SS and Gestapo and had warned me, but what I had to do was prescribed to me, just as for the illegal camp administration and the members of the foreign prisoner groups, and I continued to do this until the end. But if Dr. Kogan's testimony, which I believe camp from the camp rumors, were true you may be sure you would not now have the leading prisoners, and the German and foreign groups, like Pies, Dr. Horn, Seegers, Gootschalk and many others.
They knew my work very thoroughly, and that they did so shows that they are just as brave and courageous as they were formerly and are not afraid of any unpleasant consequences and danger, but come to help me in my need just as I helped them; but they would never have done that if I had ever supported the SS and Gestapo against the prisoners.
Q. Then how does Kogan come to make this statement, can you explain that?
A. Kogan did not 2 ow of the circumstances, especially, since he did not belong to the committee of German and foreign prisoners, at least not during my time. During my time he did not take any active part. Many prisoners assumed that if a prisoner was killed it was at the instigation of the SS. They did not know that was an informer. Then, of course, this informer had a lot of followers who saw to it that such rumors did not come out, because these informers through the people that were working for the SS and the Gestapo could put their friends into good positions, and their friends in turn supplied them with information on the camp and the life of the prisoners, which they passed on to the SS and Gestapo, but since the names of the committee of prisoners were known only to a very small group of persons, only mine was left. This is how Kogan's testimony and many others came about.
Q. Were any prisoners killed by you or with your knowledge in the course of ATB action?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. I remind you of the testimony of Kogan on page 1214 of the English transcript, where Kogan said he could not say that while you were camp doctor or under your administration, patients were killed by infection in the hospital or in the course of a TB action, but Kogan testified that there were epidemics.
The camp officer Wuest, who was a violent opponent of the Jews could be named as having killings carried, what do you know about that?
A. I know nothing about that. It has already been stated here, that this was before my time.
Q. Now, I should like to show you the affidavit of Dr. Link, who has died in the meantime, dated 20 July 1945. It is Prosecution document NO 257, Exhibit 283, on page 9 of the German, 10 of the English Document Book 12.
THE PRESIDENT: As reading that affidavit will take sometime, the Tribunal will now take its recess before you start reading this affidavit.
The Tribunal will be in recess.
(Thereupon a recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their scats. The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: I would like to remind counsel for the Prosecution that it will be extremely advisable to expedite the attendance of any witness that the Prosecution will have in an endeavor to procure somebody who can be heard in case the defense rests their testimony.
The counsel for defendant may proceed.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I do not see the defense counsel for Pokorny here, but are the other defense counsel able to tell us how long he anticipates the case of Pokorny will take and whether or not he intends to call any witnesses?
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, I cannot say anything far certain, of course, but I do not believe that the defense of the defendant Pokorny will last very long. However, as I say, I cannot be definite on this.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course, I understand that some of the defendants have some further documents to offer.
MR. HARDY: would it be possible, Your Honor, for the defense counsel this evening to have a meeting and determine how long the remainder of the presentation of defense will take in that they will introduce their other document books. I have acquired several supplemental document books in behalf of the defendant Karl Brandt, Handloser and other defendants -- and have them ascertain just how long it will take to then close the defense, before the prosecution will start on rebuttal? I think they can readily ascertain that this evening and report that to us tomorrow.
THE PRESIDENT: If defense counsel can heed that suggestion and discuss that matter amongst themselves and advise the Tribunal in the morning some idea as to the length of time it will require, it will be appreciated.
MR. HARDY: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: The counsel for defendant may proceed.
BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the defendant Hoven):
Q.- Witness, before the recess we were considering the statement made by the late Dr. Ding, Document NO-257, Exhibit 283, page 15 of Book 12. Here Ding describes the killing of four or five prisoners. Let me ask you regarding this, were these also stool pigeons and traitors?
A.- Yes.
Q.- What was their citizenship?
A.- German.
Q. I turn again to your affidavit, Document No. 249, page 5 of Document Book 12. I should like to consider now number 11. What do you have to say about the first sentence? In particular, what did you understand the word "I supervised..." to mean?
A. I understood this to mean that I had knowledge through the prisoners' committee of the intended killing of these stool pigeons.
Q. How can this, in exact terminology, be explained, the use of the word "supervise"?
A. Here again I didn't know the meaning of the English word, namely, the meaning of the word "supervise".
Q. The president has already pointed out today that you inserted the phrase "at the request of the inmates." What did you mean to say here?
A. When I used the word "inmates" I was referring to the illegal camp administration.
Q. Is it true that this committee of German and foreign inmates decided that these traitors and stool pigeons were to be killed?
A. Yes.
Q. And now, please look at number 12. Here again the word "supervision" occurs. What did you intend to say?
A. The same as I intended in number 11.
Q. Will you please repeat that?
A. I was referring to the illegal camp administration and the committee.
Q. Well, it says here "under my supervision."
A. Yes, it says that this was done with my knowledge.
Q. And why was this erroneous terminology used?
A. Again I didn't know the moaning of the word supervision.
Q. How large was the number of prisoners, or it would be better to say, the traitors and stool pigeons of whose killing you had knowledge?
A. 50 or 60.
Q. There was mention here in this affidavit of 150. What did you have to do with the killing of the remainder?
A. Nothing, nothing at all. I found out about that later.
Q. Who were the people in this remainder?
A. They were without exception stool pigeons.
Q. Then this remainder of 90 or so that were killed without your knowledge, of whose killing you found out subsequently, could you have prevented these killings?
A. No, they had already occurred.
Q. And if you had told the SS camp administration about this, what would have happened?
A. Probably ten times as many would have been killed, innocent persons.
Q. And who would have been killed?
A. Political and foreign prisoners. This would have been used as an excuse to start a new action.
Q. Do you know about the Wolf case?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was wolf?
A. He was a camp trustee.
Q. Did you bring it about that Wolf was transferred to an out side camp?
Q. No, that was done on the orders of the commander. He was working in closest collaboration with the SS, particularly with the administrative head of the protective custody camp, and he played a lamentable role in two camp. The political German and foreign prisoners were greatly interested in seeing to it that Wolf lost his influential position, because the position as a trustee was one of the most powerful in the camp.
It was indifferent whether he remained in the camp. The goal of the illegal camp administration, and my goal also was that a trustee who represented the interests of the prisoners should take his place; and with my assistance this was brought about. His successor was a political prisoner by the name of Reschke, if I remember correctly, (spelling) R-e-s-c-h-k-e. Moreover, contrary to what Kogon said, Wolf did not die in the outlying camp. That was simply a camp rumor; so far as I know he is under indictment in the Buchenwald trial.
Q. Kogon has testified on page 1204 of the English Transcript that Dr. Hoven loft the prisoners alone, and if members of the illegal camp administration were pointed out to him, that such and such a person was a traitor he did away with him, is that true?
A. No, it is not.
Q. What was the actual situation?
A. The members of the illegal camp administration particularly the prisoners' committee to which specially selected foreign prisoners belonged, were not known to every prisoner; if they had been known, they wouldn't have lasted long. In this testimony of Kogon's, he puts the members of the illegal committee in a position that throws an altogether false light on the nature of the illegal camp administration. The members of the illegal camp administration to which foreigners also belonged, were the core of the resistance movement against the SS in the camp of Buchenwald. Throughout all those years they bore the main brunt of the struggle to preserve the lives of the inmates. The members of this committee daily risked their lives for the welfare of the other prisoners.
I know many of them who lost their lives in their fight for their commrades; but someone else always took their place. These sacrifices one urged the prisoners again and again to hold out, it supported them and helped them in every respect. If any of those prisoners could be saved who otherwise would have irrevocably been lost, then that we mainly the accomplishment of the members of the illegal camp administration. At my time, Kogon did not participate in this struggle for the welfare of the prisoners. Therefore, so far as this testimony of his is concerned, he cannot testify to anything of his own knowledge. Also, members of the illegal camp administration applied to me on Kogon's behalf, so that he too indirectly owes his life to that committee. In his testimony, he describes it as if I took a walk through the camp with the members of the illegal camp administration and the informers were pointed out to me, And then I immediately had them done away with. But the situation was rather as follows: I have already said before, the illegal camp administration and the committee and the foreign liaison men conducted very careful investigations of two individual informers, and only when it was inequivocally proved that the informers were getting their orders from the SS or from the SS camp administration, then their fate was discussed by the committee. And only if it was unavoidably necessary, and if no other means were at hand, then they were killed. On the other hand, it really would be more appropriate to explain that in view of the situation in the camp at that time they waited too long, because this terrible terror that the stool pigeons set loose in the camp really had to be brought to an end.
Q. Do you know the Gabrellowicz case?
A. I don't really remember the name but now I know what you are talking about.
Q. Roemhild testified that you seriously mistreated Gabrellowicz and that he died shortly thereafter. That is page 1640 of the English transcript.
A. That is not true. Roemhild is imagining things.
Q. What was the real situation?
A. Gabrellowicz was a polish informer working with the SS. I remember still that Gabrellowicz was in Italy and played a role in the Fascist party there. For some reason or other that I don't know today he went to Buchenwald. Many prison members of the illegal camp administration, particularly foreign prisoners, charged Gabrellowicz with being an informer, and it was particularly the liaison men among the Poles who represented that point of view. In the course of this discussion I left the room because I had been called for. Therefore, I cannot tell you of my own direct knowledge what happened, but that the discussion came to results I can well believe, but that he was so badly mishandled that he died of it, that I will never believe, and certainly he was never so mishandled in my office.
Q. Where was the killing of the informers or stool pigeons carried out?
A. In operating room No. 2.
Q. On page 1209 of the English transcript Kogon testified that the prison hospital was the execution chamber of the illegal camp administration. What do you have to say about that?
A. That is so, but Roemhild also said in this connection that it was only to be attributed to the activities of the illegal camp administration and the committee of foreign prisoners that at the end of the war the Americans were able to free 23,000 people who were still alive. Moreover, I should like to emphasize at this time that these informers and stool pigeons would have met death even if the prison hospital had not been the execution chamber, and that otherwise it would have cost the lives of many valuable human beings.
However, the way in which the informers were killed would have been slow and painful, because if there had been no other way they simply would have been beaten to death by the prisoners.
Q. Were only such people killed as the illegal camp administration designated as informers or stool pigeons, and did this happen without exception?
A. You would not say designated as informers. If the results of the investigation carried on by the illegal camp administration and the committee showed that the informer was a potential danger for the whole camp and if it were decided to kill this man, then this killing was carried out with my permission and my assistance.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, to substantiate the witness's statement I put in Hoven Document No. 18, which will be Exhibit No. 8. That is in the supplementary volume, the affidavit of the Dutch Town Councillor from Amsterdam, Leendert Seegers. Let me direct your particular attention to No. 12. Seegers here states:
"I know that Dr. Hoven only killed those of the prisoners systematically who had to be looked upon as SS and Gestapo spies or as dangerous collaborators within the camp."
Regarding the character of the affiant, let me call your attention to No. 1, also Nos. 2, 3, and 4. From this it can be seen that Seegers was in Buchenwald for three years and consequently has the knowledge necessary for this deposition. In further proof of Seegers' character I put in Hoven Document No. 8. This will be Exhibit No. 9. This is a report of the Dutch Committee concerning the illegal preparations for international anti-fascist cooperation in the camp Buchenwald. This is on page 25. Let me call your attention first to page 32. From this it can be seen that this report is signed by this Seegers among others, and this proves that Seegers was one of the leading personages in the resistance movement in the camp Buchenwald and in the illegal camp administra tion.
It proves also that Seegers is in a position to judge regarding the necessity of the measures taken. I call your attention further to page 25, the second paragraph, quote:
"In order to understand this amazing fact it is necessary to give a short history of the hard and dangerous illegal activity and wearisome preparations.
"The members of all the nations represented in the Buchenwald camp took part in these preparations."
On page 26, the next to the last paragraph shows that the SS used professional criminals with many years of previous convictions as the extended arm for their shameful acts, namely, the act of destroying the political prisoners. Just what happened in detail is shown in the last paragraph on page 28; at the top it says:
"How many sick prisoners, for example, were hospitalized contrary to the intentions of the SS."
This was Hoven's activity for the welfare of the so-called decent prisoners.
Let me draw your attention to page 28, at the bottom, where it says:
"The German and Austrian prisoners who, as already stated, had occupied the most widely varying posts, entered into communication with the Dutch."
This is the same Seegers who signed the affidavit, and the Tribunal will also recall that this Pieck has appeared here as a witness, who also made statements regarding the necessity of those killings.
This again proves that Pieck has the necessary knowledge and that he is a person who can express an opinion in this matter.
Furthermore, on page 29 at the bottom you will find the statement:
"The Committee was composed of representatives of the Anti-Revolutionary Party, the Liberal Democrats, the Catholic and Social Democrats, the Communists, and the Independents. In the course of time the following took part in the work of the committee."
And then there are a few names, among them the name of Seegers and the name of Pieck.
On page 30 in the middle it says:
"Under the leadership of the German veterans Walter Barth and Harry Kuhn and with the participation of Ernst Busse, representatives of France, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Russia, and the Netherlands took part in this first international discussion. Pieck took part in this work for the Netherlands."
This will clarify Pieck's personality, Pieck being the man I called here as a witness, who can say he played a position in the illegal camp administration. It reads further:
"For reasons connected with the conspiracy, only a few men of the committee should be taken into the secret."
This proves that this was a very small circle that could judge the necessity of these killings.