AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 2 June 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
KONRAD SCHAEFER - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. PELCKMANN (Counsel for the Defendant Schaefer):
Q. Dr. Schaefer, first of all, I have to ask you to come back to something you said before. You spoke about the position of the German Unterarzt. It was perhaps a clumsy formulation, which could make a wrong impression. When I asked you how you felt at that meeting, among F the higher ranking doctors, you said something about how an Unterarzt must feel among such higher officers. Will you please explain again why you did not feel quite at ease?
A. I meant by so saying that a person of academic training, that is, a physician, who has the rank of a sergeant is in a rather unfortunate position and is dissatisfied a prior. This applied in particular to my own case, since I basically disliked military subordination.
Q. I only wanted to correct the generalization which you drew. You followed up that problem after that meeting. What did you do?
A. In the subsequent time I carried on a large number of animal experiments, which were to show the influence of seawater and different forms of nourishment upon the animal organism. In this case the animals used were rabbits. I was able to save some of the records of my experiments and I should like to ask you to submit them in evidence here.
Q. What period of time do those experiments cover, roughly?
A. The experiments cover the period from the end of 1942 until the end of 1943.
DR. PELCKMANN: I should like to submit English Document 16 as Exhibit 18. The pages in the English Document Book are 54-62. That is still Document Book No. I.
MR. HARDY: In my copy of Document Book No. I, Your Honor, Document No. 16 is not here. It goes as far as Document No. 15. I don't know whether your document book contains the same documents or not.
THE PRESIDENT: Our document book contains No. 16, notes on animal experiments by Schaefer, pages 34-62.
MR. HARDY: It has that listed in the index, your Honor, but it doesn't have the document itself in the contents.
THE PRESIDENT: These documents in my book are simply charts. I assume these were No. 16, I don't know.
DR. PELCKMANN: They are merely charts, your Honor, that is correct.
MR. HARDY: Might I ask Defense Counsel what he is attempting to prove by use of these charts? " The so charts don't elicit any data on experiments that were conducted at Dachau or any experiments that are at issue in this trial. It seems to me that they are animal experiments. I can't see the materiality of them in this connection.
DR. PELCKMANN: The Prosecution is charging all the defendants. including the Defendant Schaefer, with having used non-scientific methods. The Prosecution spent a considerable amount of time trying to prove this one charge, and I want, to prove that in occupying himself with the thirst problem and with the task of finding a method of taking the salt out of sea water, the Defendant Schaefer proceeded in a strictly scientific manner, so that this particular charge does not apply to him and that for that reason he, of course, also rejected the Berka method, and his rejection of the Berka method was for scientific reasons. I shall therefore have to show generally how scientifically Schaefer worked and, particularly, how scientifically he worked on the problem for the solution of which he is prosecuted here.
MR. HARDY: After hearing the remarks of Counsel, Your Honor, I object to the continuation of the examination using this material. I don't see the materiality of whether or not Schaefer conducted himself in an ethical manner in other experiments. The point at issue here is whether or not he is implicated, whether or not he took pert in the plans and enterprises involving the seawater experiments at Dachau.
The Prosecution charges that he was implicated therein -- the two methods were to be used at Dachau and he was a party to the crime. I can't see that whether or not he acted ethically from the time he graduated from medical school until the time he became involved in this criminal plot has no bearing here.
DR. PELCKMANN: If the Prosecution would be so kind as to tell me in somewhat more detail, at least once, why the Defendant Schaefer is responsible for the application of the Berka method in the experiments, then I could limit my defense much more intelligently . But as the Prosecution only lets me infer what it considers to be incriminating, I must make my defense as sure as possible and , therefore, must bring evidence for, first, the personality of Schaefer, second, his scientific achievements generally, third, his scientific achievements in the question of the solution of the thirst problem, and fourth, in connection with the invention of the Wofatit method, and fifth in the rejection of the Berkatit method.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection of the Prosecution to the admission of these charts comprising Schaefer Document 16 and the documents will be received in evidence. What number do you assign to this exhibit?
DR. PELCKMANN: No. 18, Mr. President.
MR. HARDY: I trust, your Honor, that I will be supplied with a copy of Document No. 16 in due course.
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly. Counsel for the Defendant Schaefer will see that the Prosecution has a copy of this document, or furnish one to the Secretary General, who will furnish it to the Prosecution.
DR. PELCKMANN: Mr. President, if the General Secretary will do this -- I was not informed that the Prosecution had no copy.
THE PRESIDENT: With reference only to these photostatic notes -- those notes comprise the documents.
DR. PELCKMANN: They are merely charts supported by two affidavits, which I shall read immediately.
JUDGE SEBRING: Doctor, I understand from what you say that these photostatic papers comprise Exhibit No. 18. Is that correct?
DR. PELCKMANN: It is pages 54 to 62 of the English copy, Your Honor -- that is Exhibit No. 18. Then I should like to return to Exhibit No. 12, page 36 of the English document book. I should like to read the following from Miss von Boetticher's affidavit, the first paragraph:
"I, Ina von Boetticher, 10 January 1939; joined the scientific department of the firm Schering A.G., Berlin-Charlottenburg, as a technical-medical assistant. At that time Dr. Feldt was chief of the department; Dr. Schaefer, his assistant, whose laboratory assistant was Mr. Kaulisch. My main task was to make animal experiments, and, as this work for Dr. Feldt did not take up all my time, I frequently also worked for Dr. Schaefer, who could explain everything particularly well and whose work was always interesting. I constantly carried out hunger and thirst experiments on rabbits and mice for him, after Dr. Schaefer had again taken up his work with Schering in the spring of 1942, following upon a few months of training after being drafted to the Luftwaffe (autumn 1941)."
Then I should like to add to the charts Document No. 39 which will be Exhibit No. 19, and may I be permitted to read a few pages only out of this affidavit.
(Int. Wartenberg) I ask you to excuse me for a moment.
I shall find it in a minute.
It begins: "Dr. Konrad Schaefer, M.D., during a very heavy air raid on Berlin during the night of 22-23 November 1943, which destroyed almost the whole Hansa-quarter, lost his apartment and all his property." Excuse me. I believe the Court and the Prosecution have the supplementary volume.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has this supplementary volume.
DR. PELCKMANN: It has been translated. It must be just an oversight that the interpreters did not receive it. I have just given them a copy of the translation.
"My husband and I received the Schaefer family into our house, and I thus became very well acquainted with Dr. Schaefer and his wife. From that period until the end of the war I assisted Dr. Schaefer in sorting out the literature and undertook his written work, which consisted chiefly of copying notes on the experiments of Mr. Kaulisch and of dictation into the typewriter. The copies of the notes on Schaefer's Animal Experiments' (hunger and thirst experiments with rabbits), Document No. 16, and the two last tables of Document No. 18 regarding the compilation of the results of thirst experiments on voluntary subjects, the originals of which were shown to mo by Counsel, Attorney-at-Law Pelckmann, were drawn up by me.
"Dr. Schaefer dictated to me in May 1944 his views on the records of the experiments of Oberarzt von Sirany, on making sea water potable by Berka (Documents No. 26 and 27), the originals of which I was also shown by Attorney-at-Law Pelckmann. Through this collaboration I received the impression that Dr. Schaefer was a very conscientious and serious research worker. His zeal often made him work untiringly throughout the night."
BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q This for the identification of the tables on the animal experiments, Exhibit No. 18. Dr. Schaefer, did you not also study the thirst problem by means of experiments on human beings?
A Yes, during the course of 1943 I carried out some hunger and thirst experiments on voluntary human subjects who were free. They were technical assistants who in part were working for me. The experiments showed that while continuing one's full work one can very well hunger and suffer thirst as long as four days without suffering from it mentally or in the ability to concentrate.
Q In order to prove this, I submit the affidavit of Dr. Kuntze, which I have already introduced as Exhibit No. 9. I ask to be allowed to read now only the last sentence from this affidavit. It is pages 23 to 35 in the English Document Book. The last sentence reads as follows: "In 1943 I carried out for my doctor's thesis simultaneous hunger and thirst experiments, lasting three to four days, on myself and other persons. I enclose the results of these experiments and concentration tests." These are the following pages attached to this affidavit.
DR. PELCKMANN): I ask further to be permitted to introduce into evidence Document No. 17, page 63, English document book, as Exhibit 20. These are records of the experiments - the hunger and thirst experiments - carried cut on a Miss Gerda Maria Schmidt. Likewise, Document No. 18 as Exhibit 21, pages 70-80. These are records concerning experiments on Miss Irmgard von Boetticher. And, finally, I ask permission to refer again to Document No. 10, affidavit 12, the affidavit of Miss Ina von Boetticher, from whom I just introduced the record of the experiment as Exhibit 21.
From this document, that is Exhibit 12, I should like to read the following, on page 36 beginning with the third paragraph of the affidavit; "After the animal experiments, thirst experiments on humans were also carried out. I myself volunteered three or four times, just as some of my acquaintances end once my sister did. We found the experiments most interesting and suffered no harm as a result. During the first two days one had really only a sensation of hunger, which then changed to thirst. Once I fasted and thirsted for four days, usually for three days. I went about my work at the laboratory as usual, staying home only on the fourth day, because I was very weak and depressed, which however passed immediately after drinking. Naturally I observed the regulations strictly and really took neither food nor drink during the experimental period, because I knew that the experiment would otherwise have been absolutely senseless. I believe it possible to go without food or drink for one or two days longer if one can remain in bed.
"All these hunger and thirst experiments were carried cut by Dr. Schaeffer for the Luftwaffe; otherwise he continued working for the firm Schering."
Q. Only one thing for clarification, Dr. Schaefer. With these experimental subjects you experimented neither with Wofatit nor with Berkatit, because you hadn't proceeded that far yet?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. How did it occur to you to occupy yourself with removing the salt from sea water?
A. All theoretical considerations and all practical experiments showed that sea water is not usable. Therefore, it was of course natural to consider a method to remove the salt from sea water, since in many cases one is not able to take along sufficient fresh water.
Q. And if one has no fresh water one must remove the salt from sea water?
A. Yes.
Q. About this development of the research of Dr. Schaefer I submit the followings documents: Document No. 19, on pages 81-83 of the English Document Book. It is to be Exhibit No. 22. This is an affidavit of Dr. Griessbach, Dr. Lauth, and Pahl. It reads: "For many years the treatment of water, in particular by absorption preparations, was a scientific field of work in the inorganic branch of the Wolfen dye works, in which we are employed."
The Wolfen dye works belonged to the I.G. Konzern, I may add.
"In the summer of 1943 we were assigned the task of making salt water potable for use in the rescue at sea of airmen, submarine crews, etc. A research assignment for this was issued by the Luftwaffe. Unterarzt Dr. Konrad Schaefer was commissioned as an expert for this work by the Research for Aviation Medicine.
"At the same time the Navy was also interested in this problem, and a similar development order was issued by the OKM.
"The I.G. itself undertook to pay the cost of the research work, including the expenses for those men detached from the Wehrmacht for work in Wolfen. No other kind of financial agreement, was made, either with official agencies or with any of the participants.
"The process developed involved the removal of the salt from the water by using the special preparations for this purpose to absorb the calcium, magnesium, and alkali content and to precipitate the chloride and sulfate content in the form of insoluble salts.
The desalting was so effective that a compound was achieved with a salt content below that of a physiological sodium chloride solution. The water was not exactly tasty, but was de-salted enough for really successful use.
"Certain doubts, expressed in particular by Dr. Schaeffer, led to experiments concerning eventual silver and barium ions in purified water. The tests, however, disproved the existence of medical scruples in this direction.
"otherwise the problem was dealt with on a strictly scientific basis, and two applications for patents were filed.
"By late fall 1943 the process was developed to such an extent, that at a lecture given by Dr. Schaefer no criticisms were raised by the Medical Inspectorate. Thereupon, at the beginning of 1944, Wolfen filed an application for the establishment of a manufacturing plant.
"At first, however, no order for this was given. Later on we learned from Dr. Schaefer that another method had recently been recommended which had first to be tested. He hinted that according to observations made with tomatoes it had something to do with mixtures of fruit juices, etc. Dr. Schaeffer said that he had objected to this method, as it was useless from a medical point of view. But his objections were not sustained. In view of the scientific facts we had to agree with him.
"Later - at the beginning of 1945 - Dr. Schaefer's (and also our own) views on the suitability a.nd incontestability of our process were confirmed, when news reached us from England andAmerica, that the same method was being used there. The periodical "The Illustrated London News" published research, reports of the Royal Air Force Physiological Laboratory, the Ministry of Aircraft Production, and the English Permutit Company. At the same time publications appeared in Sweden to the effect that in America also the Permutit Company, New York, had de-salted seawater in a similar way.
"The effect achieved with the Anglo-American method was not so farreaching as that achieved with ours. Apart from the fact that our remaining sodium chloride content was only half that of the Permutit Company, we also achieved an almost complete elimination of the sulfate content, while with the Permutit process the sulfate Content remained in the water. We had occasionally voiced our intention of not removing the sulfate from the water. Dr. Schaefer, however, raised objections, pointing out the disadvantage of a laxative effect of the sulfate content.
"On the whole we can state that in the discussions with Dr. K. Schaifer we always had the impression that he was a serious scientist and a conscientious medical man.
Dr. Griessback Dr. Lauth Dr. Pahl" This already states in detail that the Wolfatit method, which Schaefer recommended was unobjectionable and was the best method that existed.
Now, turning to Document 20, page 81 of the English Document Book, excuse me, page 84 of the English Document Book. This document confirms that at the request of Schaefer the experiments regarding the possible damage of the potable water produced with Wofatit were carried out. Dr. Schaefer, have you turned to that page in the document, yourself?
A. No, I haven't.
Q. I should like to quote from the end of Document 20 - Exhibit 23it says: "Summary: When preparing potable water from sea water by means of Wofatit SW, no silver or barium ions appear in the drinking water either if the given proportion of Wofatit to seawater, i.e. 1:3, is increased or reduced, nor if diluted seawater is used, nor if sea water of a higher temperature is used. Only after the water has been filtered may any sort of additions be made or may the drinking water be used for cooking purposes."
THE PRESIDENT: What number document is that?
DR. PELKMANN: That is Document No. 20, Mr. President, on pages 84 to 88, Exhibit 23.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't find in my document book, the portion you read.
INTERPRETER: Your Honor, at the end of page 88, the last paragraph on page 88 - summary.
THE PRESIDENT: I have it now.
DR. PELKMANN: I read only the summary at the end of the document.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand, Counsel.
DR. PELKMANN: Thus, Dr. Schaefer also considered the possibility that seawater with a low salt content is found, for instance in the Baltic, and if one also considers the temperature; then the chemical process is also so that the water which one obtains is potable and is not dangerous.
Now we turn to Document 21. This is to be Exhibit No. 24. It is on pages 89 to 90 of the English Document Book. This is a document from Dr. Schuster.
MR. HARDY: If it please your Honor, might I ask Defense Counsel if this purports to be an original copy of a letter? There is some difficulty in the presentation of documents here. In each instance in the past two days, these original German documents that are being submitted are not authenticated in the manner as set forth by the Tribunal. This one here has no authentification on it whatsoever. Due to that fact, it gives cause to doubt the authenticity, and I would like to submit it to the Tribunal for their perusal. It may be that Dr. Pelckmann can in due course receive a certificate of authenticity and offer it at this time provisionally.
DR. PELCKMANN: May I make the following explanation? As is apparent from the date on the document, it is of 10 February 1944, and the signature here on the original is by Dr. Schuster; it is a document in the same way as a document that the Prosecution submits from the year 1944 from, let us say, Himmler or any other person who is not here as a defendant or as a witness.
It is an original document, and, of course, I am not in a position to certify the signature, because this Dr. Schuster is not available.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, this document is addressed to the Defendant Schaefer, and it could be duly authenticated by putting it to the Defendant and having the Defendant identify same, but I am merely pointing out that for the sake of this trial end other trials in the future, we have prescribed regulations, and if possible we should like to insist upon the Defense counsel adher to the regulations of the Tribunal in that all German documents be duly authenticated as set forth in the regulations of this Tribunal. It creates quite a problem, and it is one that is more important, I think, than even the certificates on affidavits.
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q. Witness, are you familiar with the document which your counsel now asks the Tribunal to receive as Schaefer Exhibit No. 24?
A. Yes, Your Honor, I received it at that time.
Q. You can identify this original exhibit as being a letter received by you in due course of correspondence?
A. Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary may return this document. This document is admitted in evidence.
DR. PELCKMANN: It is to receive the exhibit number 24, Your Honor.
Dr. Schaefer's critical examination of his preparations continued; this is proved in particular by Exhibit 24. Dr. Schaefer wanted to assure himself that even if it was applied unscientifically, the person who used Wofatit would not suffer any harm. The writer of this letter asked Dr. Schaefer to conduct experiments regarding the effect of hydrochloric acid in the stomach on Wofatit.
Number 2 in the document shows that Wofatit which has previously been treated with sea water does not give off any barium.
THE PRESIDENT: The document reads, "sea water that had been previously treated with Wofatit."
DR. PELCKMANN: I am only referring to paragraph numbered 2. The paragraph numbered 1 in the document concerns the poison effect of pure Wofatit which has not been brought together with sea water. Dr. Schaefer, for instance, counted on the possibility that a soldier, a pilot, did not have a vessel and therefore could get the idea of swallowing a handful of Wofatit and then afterwards drinking the sea water. In regard to this, the paragraph numbered 1 of this report of Dr. Schuster says that this too is entirely harmless.
These complicated chemical explanations, however, are made quite clear by Document No. 22, which I would like to introduce as Exhibit No. 25. It is Document No. 22, pages 91 and 92 of the document book. It is an affidavit of Professor Dr. Fritz Eichholtz, professor of the University of Heidelberg, and it reads as follows:
"You want an expert opinion about the experiments carried out by Unterarzt Dr. Schuster. In these experiments the effect of hydrochloric acid on Wofatit is investigated according to the question of whether free barium can appear in the gastric juice when Wofatit has accidentally been taken. Dr. Schuster finds with one gram of Wofatit a maximum value of approximately 2 milligrams of barium. One would have to take about 100 grams of Wofatit before the very lowest toxic dose of a soluble barium of 0.2 grams would be free in the gastric juice, and one would have to take Wofatit by the kilogram in order to reach the lethal dose of two to four grams, supposing that the solubility of the barium Wofatit in the gastric juice is not higher than appears from Schuster's experiments. We have therefore chosen a direct course and have fed Wofatit to rats. The animals received, per 100 grams, 0.4 grams of barium zeolith and silver zeolith. The animals did not show any striking injuries. In a second series of experiments the same doses of Wofatit were given, together with 1 cc, 1/10 hydrochloric acid. In this case, too, nothing of importance was observed. Converted for the case of a man weighing 50 kilograms, this shows that doses of approximately 200 grams of Wofatit with or without hydrochloric acid are harmless. We therefore conclude that the chemical properties of Wofatit have never resulted in any considerable toxic effect being observed.
"I therefore confirm that even if the filter does not function sufficiently the inorganic elements in the water could be introduced into the digestive system without any danger."
Documents 23 and 24 show further very careful experiments which Schaefer carried out regarding all possibilities of a harmful effect of his preparation.
I ask you to receive Document 23 as Exhibit 26, and Document 24 as Exhibit 27. The documents, Exhibits 26 and 27, show the experiments which the laboratory assistant Kaulisch carried out in accordance with Schaefer's instructions. Kaulisch reared bacteria strains from the North Sea and observed the effect of Wofatit upon them.
His research demonstrated that Wofatit kills bacteria very effectively.
After the conclusion of all these experiments - about which it can be said that they were carried out with unusual scientific exactness it was no longer necessary for Schaefer to test his method any further.
In conclusion, however, I would like to introduce Document 25 as Exhibit 28, which is on page 101 in the English document book. This is a questionnaire, with the answers. It originated from Professor Ivy, the vice president of the University of Chicago, and it is dated 15 April. Of course, I received it in the English language. I had hoped that it would be translated into German for the German document book but unfortunately this was not done. For the information of the judges and the prosecution it is in the English original in the English document book; however, in the German document book it is also in English, but nevertheless I would like to read the letter.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honors, I might state that Dr. Ivy will be here in a matter of a week or two. At that time the prosecution will present Dr. Ivy here as an expert witness and Dr, Pelckmann may well conduct his examination; I know well that he will examine Dr. Ivy if Dr. Ivy is here as a witness. In order to avoid the confusion of having to consider this document in both languages, he could merely offer it as it is now and avoid having it translated, because the witness will be here and testify and it will be in the record at that time.
DR. PELCKMANN: I thank Mr. Hardy for the suggestion which he has made. However, I believe that I can waive the examination of Professor Ivy if I may read the questions which were put and his very precise answers. I believe that it would expedite the trial. If clarifying Questions on the part of the prosecution or on the part of the defense should still be necessary afterwards, they may be put, perhaps, when Professor Ivy appears here.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed in the manner indicated. Does counsel himself read English?
DR. PELCKMANN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed.
DR. PELCKMANN: Thank you.
"I herewith submit my answers to the questions submitted by Horst Peleckmann, Defense Counsel for the Defendant, Dr. Konrad Schaefer, whom I interrogated on 22 January 1947.
"1. Question. Do you know the method for removing the salt from sea water recommended by Dr. Schaefer during the War?
Answer. I am familiar with the theoretical method which Dr. Schaefer said that he recommended for use in removing the salt from sea water and developed with the I.G. Farben Industry during the bar. I did not see and examine chemically the actual product.
"2. Question. Is it the same in principle as the method you invented, which is now being used by the U. S. Army?
Answer. The theoretical method described by Dr. Schaefer is essentially the same as that being used in practice by the U. S. Army and Navy.
"3. Question. Do the methods recommended by Schaefer correspond to the latest developments of Inorganic Chemistry?
Answer. The method described to me by Dr. Schaefer represents in principle one of the best methods for removing the salts from sea water and utilizes one of the latest developments in inorganic chemistry which apply to the means for removing salts from sea water.
"4. Question. Before Schaefer recommended the method, was a chemical analysis made to shows (1) that neither free barium nor silver are present in the drinking water, and (2) that the salt content of the sea water was completely eliminated by the method? Are these results sufficient guarantee that the water is completely harmless and fully suitable for use as drinking water?
Answer. I was informed by Dr. Schaefer that he had made chemical analysis of the water which resulted after the sea water was treated by his method and found to be free of the salts in sea water as well as barium and silver. It is strongly presumptive that this is true because that is what any chemist or scientist would do to ascertain if the method for desalinating the sea water was effective. It is the sole reliable means for developing any method for desalinating sea water.
Such results would be entirely adequate for determining whether sea water desalinated by Dr. Schaefer's method was harmless and suitable for use as drinking water.
"5. Question. In that case, is it still necessary to carry out experiments on human beings?
Answer. It would be unnecessary to conduct experiments on human beings if the water resulting from the application of Dr. Schaefer's method was found to be chemically free of the salts in sea water and barium and silver.
"6. Question. After Schaefer had completed this analysis and had discovered that the agent had a strong bactericide effect, had he fulfilled his duty sufficiently to be able to suggest that the agent should be used on a large scale?
Answer. If the chemical analysis showed that the water had been freed of salts, barium and silver and that the chemical agent had a bacteriocidal effect entirely adequate, sufficient evidence would be available to suggest and recommend that the agent and procedure should be used on a large scale for rendering sea. water potable and harmless. And, it is entirely rational, as in the case of cur own experiments at the Naval Medical Research Institute, that his agent and method would accomplish those things claimed for it, namely would render sea water potable and harmless."
That was Exhibit 28.
Q Dr. Schaefer, we see from this that the method that you and the I.G. developed was ready for use?
A Yes, this was November 1943, and at that time I could tell the Medical Inspectorate that a method had been developed which was ready to be introduced. In December of the same year I demonstrated the procedure in Professor Hippke's presence and in the presence of a few other officers. All of these men drank water prepared with Wofatit, and large-scale manufacture and introduction of this preparation was recommended.
Q What did you have to do with the so-called Berka method?
A Dr. Becker-Freyseng went into that point at great length. I received from the Medical Inspectorate in the first months or 1944 the order to check on experiments that an Oberstarzt von Sirany had carried out in Vienna on soldiers, and to report on what I found. It was perfectly patent to me that Mr. Berka was a charlatan and Mr. von Sirany was another.
DR. PELCKMANN: In this connection I offer Documents 26 and 27 and give them exhibit numbers 29 and 30, pages 103 and 106.
MR. HARDY: May I inquire, Your Honor, whether or not Exhibit No. 29 purports to be an original file note of Dr. Konrad Schaefer?
DR. PELCKMANN: Let me draw your attention to Exhibit 19, the affidavit of Mrs. Koenig. I have already read Exhibit 19, her statement that Mrs. Koenig identified these documents as the original documents. Perhaps Mr. Hardy can re-read this identification.
MR. HARDY: I have no objection, Your Honor. I might suggest that those be put to the defendant for authenticating.
DR. PELCHMANN: Yes.
Q Will the defendant please identify these documents, so that this matter will be perfectly clear? Dr. Schaefer, what can you say about these documents?
A Yes, these arc the original documents as I drew them up; then there is a copy of them which I sent to the Medical Inspectorate at Saalow.
Q And is it true that Mrs. Koenig wrote these documents, as she says in her affidavit?
A Yes.
Q Now, from these documents that you have before you in the original, will you kindly ready yourself from Document 26, Roman Numeral IV?
A I quote: "About the Berka procedure:
"a.) Berka sea-water differs from natural water only by its taste.
"b) Like the latter, it causes a salt diuresis, which according to the amount drunk, can quickly lead to a dangerous exsiccosis. It produces an objective thirst.
"c) In many cases it increases the subjective thirst, causes dryness of the mouth and throat mucous membrane and diarrhea. The same applies also in the case of small doses.
"d) Berka sea-water, like natural water, is quite unsuitable for quenching thirst at sea, either in large or small doses, and is even dangerous. In any case, it is better to go thirsty than to drink it."
Q Now, from Exhibit 40, Document 27 -
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, Paragraph D, under Roman IV, this Document Book says: "Berka sea-water, like natural water, is quite unsuitable for quenching thirst at sea." Is not natural water suitable for quenching thirst at sea; does that mean natural sea-water?
DR. PELCKMANN: That means natural sea-water naturally, Your Honor, yes.
In the German original it says just "natural."
Q Now, from Exhibit 40, Document 27, will you please quote, or will you please explain the significance cf this document regarding anamneses?
A When I came to Vienna, Mr. von Sirany went with me in his uniform as Oberstarzt into the room in which the patients, that is, the experimental subjects were.
Q They were soldiers, were they not?
A Yes, they were. Mr. von Sirany stated summarily that "Berka water was a fine thing, wasn't it," and "you weren't thirsty, were you," and "everything was fine, wasn't it?" The soldiers said, "Yes, Colonel, everything went very well with us." However, I was in civilian clothing, and asked. Mr. von Sirany to permit me to question the men individually. I told the soldiers to explain to me how it was possible. I told them I was a scientist and had nothing to do with the military, and then I found out about these anamneses.