A. That was when Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg showed their film or rather intended to show their film at General Field Marshall Milch's office.
Q. Did you see the film?
A. No.
Q. Were you present?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who was there?
A. I know it now from the documents submitted here.
Q. Did you ever talk to Dr. Benzinger about it afterwards?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether or not he saw the film?
A. According to the report by Dr. Romberg, which was submitted here, I assume that he saw it. I cannot say for certain.
Q. Did you hear any repercussions as a result of the showing of that film?
A. Repercussions, I know of none.
Q. Who informed you that there was to be a meeting in the R.L.M., wherein a motion picture film was to be shown concerning high altitude research?
A. During my direct examination I explained that a telephone call was made that morning, which I received in the referat that morning to the effect that either Professor Kalk or his assistant Dr. Bruehl were asking whether we knew any thing about a film and a lecture regarding high altitude experiments, which was to be shown in the Reichs Ministry for aviation.
Q. Then Professor Kalk informed you; is that it?
A. No I have just said what Professor Kalk told to me, he said no more than that because that happened before the film was shown and at that time he of course knew none of the details. I can't say thethor it was Professor Kalk or Dr. Bruehl.
Q. I understand that this film in this meeting was supposed to be a secret matter; was it not?
A. I know nothing of that and the only knowledge I have comes from the documents submitted here.
Q. Were you usually informed of all secret matters?
A. It depended whether I had to know them or not. Naturally I learned about secret matters during the war. I certainly did not learn of all secret matters.
Q. Did you learn of all secret matters in the field of aviation medicine?
A. Certainly not, because I found out about a number of them after the war, which I did not know before.
Q. Did you learn of all matters in the field of aviation medicine after the time you became referent for aviation medicine?
A. I cannot really answer this question because I don't know what secret matters existed.
Q. If you did not know, who did?
A. I don't know what secrets there were, except the things I actually knew regarding these things. I actually don't know who knew them.
Q. Doctor, do you know Dr. Kottenhoff?
A. Kottenhoff, yes I made his acquaintance in the year 1944.
Q. Did he have any connection with your organization?
A. Yes, for a few days in the summer of 1944 he was for a few days with the office of the Chief of the office of the Chief of the Medical Service, but was transferred immediately thereafter.
Q. Did you know him before that time?
A. No, I did not know him.
Q. When did you first make the acquaintance of Dr. Weltz?
A. My first personal memory of Weltz dates back to July 1942. That was on the occasion of the aviation medicine conference in Hamburg. I would assume, however, that I had seen him before that time somewhere. However, I cannot give you an exact date.
Q. Will you tell me, doctor, a few more details concerning your first meeting with Rascher, just when did that happen?
A. I think that happened on the occasion of the conference between Hippke and Rascher, which, according to a document which I have seen here, dates to June 1942.
Q. That is June 1942?
A. Yes, June 1942.
Q. Well when did this meeting - pardon me - where did this meeting take place?
A. This meeting between General Oberstabsartz Professor Hippke and Rascher took place at the office of Professor Hippke.
Q. At the office of Professor Hippke, how did you happen to be there?
A. I didn't quite understand.
Q. How did you happen to be there?
A. I was asked to attend the conversation, it was Generalarzt Dr. Marius, my department chief, who ordered me to do so.
Q. Who asked you? You say Dr. Marzius asked you to attend this meeting?
A. Yes, Dr. Marzius ordered me by request of the medical inspectorate to go there. This office was just one floor below my department, that is, under the department of Generalarzt Dr. Marzius, and in this department our referat was located.
Q. Do you any idea why he asked you to come to this meeting?
A. Yes, I have an idea and I have already explained that during my direct examination.
Q. Give it to us again?
A. I received an order to go down to Hippke with the files concerning the planned cold meeting in Nurnberg. Originally Anthony was to go there but since he was not present I was to replace him.
Q. Did you usually represent Anthony when he was not present?
A. I didn't usually represent him but only on certain occasions, on occasions when my departmental chief ordered me to do so.
Q. I am asking you what time, when did you represent Anthony?
A. There were occasions, not times.
Q. I see. Now at this meeting between Rascher and Hippke, Rascher spoke very clearly, did he not, about the use of concentration camp inmates for experimentation purposes?
A. I don't remember him having spoken particularly about concentration camp inmates. He mentioned that he had received a special commission for particular cases to use condemned criminals as experimental subjects, who could volunteer for those purposes, and to whom a mitigation of their sentence would be promised, as a result of such experiments.
Q. Now, doctor, this meeting took place in June 1942 and the reason why you were called to the meeting was to make arrangements for the cold conference in Nurnberg in October, is that the reason?
A. No, I was asked to attend because Professor Hippke wanted information on what the individual members of the Luftwaffe, who were dealing with the cold problem, would be lecturing about. He wanted to recommend one of these experts to Professor Rascher so that he could get in touch with him.
Q. Did you gather from the conversation why Hippke wanted to make the recommendation to Rascher, for what reason?
A. I assumed that Rascher asked him to name an expert for cold problem.
Q. Well what did Rascher want to know that for?
A. At that time I assumed and I still assume that Rascher wanted to collaborate with a scientist who had his own personal experiences in this field.
Q. That was the gist of the whole conversation - that Rascher was seeking an expert in the field of cold, from exposure, - shock from exposure to cold, is that it?
A. At any rate that was the subject of the conversation as long as I was present. I was only asked to attend the conference after it had already started and I left Professor Hippke and Rascher before the end of it. In other words, I was only present for a brief period during the middle of the conversation.
Q. Then as near as I can gather there were two things you heard at this meeting between Rascher and Hippke, No. 1, Rascher was seeking the collaboration of an expert in the field of freezing, and No. 2, Rascher talked about the use of inmates in the concentration camps for experimental purposes. That was only two things you heard at this meeting?
A. Yes, these were the two subjects, wherby I want to emphasize once more that I don't remember Rascher using the word "Concentration camp inmates". He used the word "criminal".
Q. I see, Rascher mentioned the criminals that Himmler would assign to him for use in experiments?
A. Yes, he was mentioning that.
Q. Now, I assume you are an intelligent young man. You have exhibited on the stand superior intellect, were you not able to ascertain at this meeting Rascher's intentions?
A. I don't know what you understand by Rascher's true intentions.
Q. Couldn't you put two and two together and make four, namely, criminals on this hand and seeking an expert for freezing research on the other hand, and that the two of them together make experimentation on human beings?
A. Certainly this was discussed very openly in Hippke's presence and that is what I said during my direct examination. One needs no particular intelligence for that.
Q. Then you knew in June 1942 that experiments on human beings, condemned criminals, you say, were to be performed by Dr. Rascher and a collaborator?
A. Yes, I said that during my direct examination.
Q. With the approval of Hippke?
A. Yes, with the approval of Hippke. I had assumed that. Mind you I didn't stay until the end of the conversation but since Hippke discussed the matter with Rascher I had assumed it was with his approval.
Q. When was the next time you heard about the freezing experiments?
A. The next time was in Nurnberg, at this discussion here about distress at sea and winter distress on the 26th and 27 of October 1942.
Q. Who arranged the Nurnberg conference?
A. The preparations for this meeting were made by the referent. That was Professor Anthony at that time and I had a few duties of an organizational nature, for example, four weeks before this meeting I was here in Nurnberg for day or two and investigated hotel possibilities and arranged a few other questions, such as for the hall for the meeting and equipment and so forth.
Q. Then you were on the committee for the arrangements of the meeting in October 1942?
A. There was not a committee. The preparations for the meeting, not only this meeting, but all of the twelve meetings of this nature which the Luftwaffe held, were always made by the referent because he was in charge of discussions later and I had organizational tasks, just as later, for example in 1944, I assigned such duties to some one else.
Q. Yet you were making all these arrangements for hall and for chairs, etc. You didn't know what the meeting was for?
A. I didn't say that I didn't know that. I knew the subject. I knew more or less the program of the lectures.
Q. Did you know Rascher was going to lecture?
A. No. That was not expected. The report on this meeting indicates clearly that Rascher's lecture was a so-called discussion remark - it was not a planned lecture.
Q. I see. Well, now, doctor, on page 77 in Document Book II. Do you have the German Document Book II before you? This is Document 343-a-PS - a letter from Erhard Milch to Wolf and is the "Dear Wolffy letter".
A. Yes, I have that. Yes, I have the document.
Q. Now, in this document I note that Milch states in the first paragraph about seven lines down from the top "These have been prepared in immediate agreement with proper offices; Oberstabsarzt Weltz will be charged with the execution and Stabarzt Rascher will be made available until further order in addition to his duties within the Medical Corps of the Luftwaffe." This is concerning the institution or the initiation of the freezing experiments. Can you tell me and the Tribunal how Milch received information that Weltz and Rascher would be good men to put on this assignment? Who would advise Milch in that matter?
A. Unfortunately I cannot give you that information. I can only refer to what Professor Hippke said as a witness in the Trial against Field Marshal Milch. I know no more than that and it is not quite clear to me how at the end of May such a letter could have been written. Up to this trial I had believed that when Rascher talked to Hippke these experiments were discussed for the first time, but here I see it must have been discussed three or even four weeks before hand and must have been discussed by various people.
Q. Are you certain then of the date that you have given us about the meeting between Hippke and Rascher? Might it be possible that that meeting took place two or three months before the date you have said, June 1942 you have said? Might it be possible the talk took place in March, April, or maybe six months before, or even the summer before, June 1941? That might fit into all these plans. Are you certain of that date - June 1942?
A. In June 1941 I was not yet an assistant referent in the Medical Inspectorate. I was in Roumania at that time.
Q. Could it have been in August 1941?
Q. That is quite impossible. I remember it as much later. I thought that this Rascher-Hippke talk, where I was partly present was in the middle of the summer, perhaps July or August of 1942. But According to Document NO-283, Exhibit 80, Rascher's letter to Himmler, it has the right date and fits in with the rest of the documents and as far as I can judge means that this meeting was on 12 June 1942, because on the 15 June Rascher writes to Himmler "A few days ago I was called to the Inspector of the Luftwaffe Medical Service, etc." and since I was present at only one conversation between Hippke and Rascher this must be the one he is talking about here.
Q. Well, didn't it seem to you that this meeting between Rascher and Hippke, that this was the first time Hippke had discussed this problem, that is what I gathered from your testimony?
A. That had been my impression - that had been the first that Hippke talked to Rascher about it.
I had the impression that Hippke had known Rascher before, but I thought this was the first time they had talked possibly.
Q. Well, then the testimony of Weltz was enlightening to you when Weltz told us he had discussed the problem with Hippke himself in the summer of 1941?
A. Yes, I heard that.
Q. However you still maintain that the date of June 1942 when the meeting between Hippke and Rascher took place?
A. Yes.
Q. Your Honor, I might suggest that we could have a ten minute recess if it meets with the approval of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Tribunal will be in recess for a few minutes.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BY MR. HARDY (Continued)
Q Dr. Becker-Freyseng, how often in the course of professional business in the Office of the medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe, did Professor Hippke refer to the referent of Aviation Medicine in regard to matters pertaining to that particular field?
A I am afraid that is a question I can't answer. I could say how often Hippke called me, for instance.
Q Well, he called you in; how often?
A Not very often. I would estimate that it was five to 10 times but I wouldn't want to give any definite figure. It was certainly not oftener than that.
Q How often did Hippke concern himself with matters in the field of Aviation Medicine without referring to the referent?
A Very frequently I am sure. I alone of quite a number of matters, where Professor Hippke for example, delivered lectures on aviation medicine.
Q How do you know about them?
A Because I heard them later.
Q He never reported to you about them or told you about them or asked your advice about them?
A Those are two questions, you ask me first, whether Hippke reported to me, - no. It is not customary for the boss to report to his subordinate, and he very seldom asked me for advice. The referat was Anthony. There is an old German saying that you should get to the Blacksmith and not to his apprentice and during Anthony's time Anthony was the blacksmith. Only when Anthony was not there or when it was something very specific that I had worked with then Professor Hippke called me. For example, at the discussion we have just been talking about.
Q Then I presume whenever Professor Hippke concerned himself in matters in the field of Aviation Medicine that he would consult with Anthony, that was the reason why he had Anthony there?
A I can't quite answer this in the affirmative, because I know of cases when Professor Hippke dealt with aviation medicine questions himself without consulting Anthony.
Q How could your office, that is Anthony have efficiently performed his task in the assignment without have complete knowledge of the activities in his field.
A In my explanation of the duties of the referent, which is very thorough, I said that the referent worked on the orders of his superiors and of course it happened from time to time that these superiors acted independently on an aviation medicine question without consulting the refereat for aviation medicine.
Q Well, now you tell us that it was your understanding in these experiments that criminals condemned to death were to be used, is that correct?
A I don't believe I said that. I said that convicted criminals were used. From that discussions between Hippke and Rascher I didn't know of anything about the persons condemned to death, and I never said so.
Q What is your opinion about the ability of a person incarcerated to volunteer for an experiment?
A I should like to refer again to my direct examination and repeat briefly that in the first place from many works of German and foreign works, I know that throughout the world the possibility is recoginized for prisoners to volunteer.
Q I am not interested in the possibility throughout the world; I want to know Becker-Freyseng's opinion, what do you think about the possibility of a person incarcerated in prison to volunteer for an experiment?
A My personal opinion is that under the conditions an incarcerated person volunteers readily for such an experiment when a special miti gation of sentence is promised to him, and even if no such promise is amde, because he can assume that by participating in such an experiment he will put himself in a good light in the eyes of the parole board, and most of the prisoners would be interested in that.
Q Well, now you issued or ordered the sea-water experiments, or initiated them, or whatever nomenclature you wish to adopt; you have told us you have accepted the responsibility for the sea-water experiments, and in the sea-water experiments that used concentration camp inmates; those inmates were criminals, convicted criminals; did you approve of using convicted criminals in those experiments?
A I want to correct one thing first, I said even today I take responsibility for the sea-water experiments, that is the responsibility which was due to me at the time according to my position as referent, to come back to your question --
Q Just a moment, Doctor. In connection with that if you assume responsibility for the sea water experiments. Then you did anticipate or would you state that Anthony would or should assume responsibility for all these experiments performed on behalf the Luftwaffe, -- that is that happened prior to May, 1944?
A I cannot say that, because I don't know what part Anthony had in the planning or suggestion of these experiments.
Q You just stated Doctor, you assume full responsibility for sea water experiments because of your position as referent in the Referat of Aviation Medicine, now by the some taken don't you think it possible that Anthony should accept responsibility of the experiments was brought home to the Referat?
A Under this last condition I believe Anthony would still take the responsibility today, but I should like to point put that I make a clear distinction between the sea water experiments and other experiments as far as the participation of the Referat for Aviation Medicine is concerned. I get this from the documents submitted by the Prosecution, and I do not believe Anthony would take the responsibility for experiments which he never suggested or in the planning of which he participated, one can stake responsibility only for things which one plans or suggestes or carries out ones self.
Q Would you assume responsibility for the sea water experiments? One must assume that have had jurisdiction in order to assume responsibility
A I believe in the course of my direction examination I explained my responsibility very carefully. I did not have jurisdiction nor independent supervision, but I had since there was no other possibility for carrying out these sea water experiments, and since my own plan which I mentioned of treating a group of the Luftwaffe at Jueterbog in order to have experimental persons at the disposal at any convenient time. This plan was rejected by my superiors, I pointed out that as a last possibility that these experiments, which I considered completely harmless, and I take the responsibility of that -
Q We will come to the sea water phase a little later. I want to go back to the subject of volunteers used in your sea water experiments You knew they were going to use convicted criminals, that is what you understood would take place that convicted criminals were to be used in the experiments?
A Yes.
Q And what did you understand would be the reward given to the convicted criminal for subjecting himself voluntary to the sea water experiment?
A In the case of the sea water experiment he never mentioned any special rewards. I said before that I can imagine that a criminal volunteers, not only for a special reward, but also without such a reward. There were several reasons -
Q And you are not sure whether any rewards were offered?
A I know that Professor Beigelbock procured special cigarettes rations for these people and give them to them, and that he tried to get other rewards.
Professor Beigelbock will tell you about that himself.
Q Did you see him give the cigarettes to the prisoners?
A Since I was never in Dachau I did not see that. I have already stated.
Q Inasmuch as you were taking full responsibility for the sea water experiments do you think that it would have been much better had you though about the matters more seriously and offered a reward to the political prisoners that volunteered for the experiments or offered a reward to perhaps a Jew incarcerated in a concentration camp for having committed Rassenschande, rather than offering a reward to a criminal who might go out and be a menace to the public again; didn't that occur to you? You are a clear thinking young man, or weren't you interested?
A I must tell you that my chief, Professor Schroeder, as is true with the Reichsarzt of the SS Police, told me that he had talked to Grawitz about soldiers unworthy for military service being used for these experiments. As far as I know everything else was eliminated because I had nothing to do with the selection of the subjects nor with the question of reward. Besides I am convinced that if I had suggested that political prisoners be used for these experiments the prosecution would use that as a special charge against me today.
Q Well, now in the field of high altitude research you have testified here quite extensively concerning the adaptability of experimental subjects to high altitudes, inasmuch as you are an expert in this field, a man who has done considerable work in Heildelberg since the end of the war in explosive decompression, can you tell me how many times an average individual can undergo a high altitude experiment and in what space of time he can undergo said experiments before he becomes adapted to high altitudes?
A I don't know where you get the idea that I had done a great deal of work in explosive decompression.
I never said so.
Q You have done it at Heidelburg since the end of the war, haven't you done a considerable amount of work in explosive decompression at Heidelburg? That is what I understood from your direct examination?
A No, I worked on bends, that is the condition when a altitude of 12,000 meters altitude or some other altitude is reached normally. Explosive decompression is a change in pressure taking place within seconds from normal pressure to the pressure of very high altitude.
Q. Doctor, do you feel that you are in a position to testify before this Tribunal concerning the adaptability of an experimental subject to high altitude as an expert?
A. Yes, I assume so, because I have performed experiments myself on adaptability to high altitude.
Q. Can you answer my question, does a person ever become adapted to high altitude?
A. In this general form the question has to be answered in the affirmative.
Q. And if a person becomes adapted to high altitude, I imagine he would be useless for experimental purposes?
A. That depends on the nature of the experiments one wants to conduct, for certain types of experiments this condition is not the correct basis, that is true.
Q. It follows, however, that you would not get average statistics if you used a person who became adapted to high altitude?
A. Yes, they would be average figures under these special conditions.
Q. Is there any set period wherein a person becomes adapted to high altitude; for instance, would it be four or five times undergoing extreme altitude in a period of a week, which would cause a person to become adapted to it; or would it be within a month or would some people never became adapted or is it possible to strike an average? You may answer that extensively if you care to, doctor.
A. I will be glad to do so because one can explain this matter very simply and I shall try to do so. Genuine adaptation to altitude is only the circumstance or rather the condition arising after a stay at high altitude for some time. For example, in the Alps between 3,000 and 4,000 meters it takes about two weeks to be complete. At even higher altitudes, for example, in the Andes or the Himalayas, it is possible for the mountain climbers to go up to 8,000 meters and adapt themselves to this altitude and this of course takes even longer. Between this true altitude adaptation and what occurs when a person rises rapidly in the low pressure chamber for a limited times there is a definite distinction.
It is not possible to obtain altitude adaptation through repeated stays in a low pressure chamber. In any case not if these low pressure chamber experiments are limited to a period of time to two, three or four months and if for example there is only one ascent per day and then after the second, third or fourth time the person is a little more resistant than the first time.
Q. After the first or second time, did you say?
A. Yes, but that means only very slight increases in the resistance to altitude. It is possible because in the first ascent the subject is unused to this new situation and does not act quite right, perhaps the breathing is not quite right, and these inhibitions will be removed on the second or third time when the subject is used to the situation. Now if we continue these pressure chamber ascents for years, such as the people working in aviation medicine are forced to do, the much later, say after nine months or a year, there is a further improvement in the resistance to altitude, but this does not approach what is caused by a stay in the mountains. I do not believe that the results of experiments would be influenced by it if within three months, twenty or thirty or thirty-five experiments were performed on the same person.
Q. Supposed you used me for instance as an experimental subject. Do you think I could take five of these tests a week and not become adapted for a period of three weeks?
A. According to what I have just said, I do not believe that you would be adapted after three weeks. I assume that you are healthy; you could of course undertake five experiments with the lack of oxygen within a week without suffering any ill effects.
Q. For a period of three weeks and not become adapted?
A. Yes, altitude adaption is not caused by a limited stay daily in a low pressure chamber.
Q. Now, how can you tell when I become adapted? Give me a simple answer.
A That is very simple to determine. The first time I check either how long you can go on without oxygen at a certain altitude, how long you can stay at a certain altitude or how far you can ascend without oxygen, that is an ascent experiment. If I repeat the same experiment after three, four or six weeks, I can determine whether you can remain in for a longer time at the same altitude or at the same speed or whether you can go to a higher altitude without becoming sick. That test is very simple.
Q Now in a period of two months, Doctor, might I become adapted if I was used thirty times?
A I have already said, repeated ascents in the low pressure chamber cause a very slight improvement in the resistance to altitude, but nothing that aviation medicine calls altitude adaptation in the strictest sense.
Q Now, Doctor, the freezing experiments at Dachau; your first encounter with any activities concerning experimentation in the field of research concerning freezing or shock from exposure to cold was after having sat in at the meeting between Hippke and Rascher; was that the first time?
A Not after the meeting, but the discussion between Hippke and Rascher was the first time I heard anything about it, because I was called in to participate in this discussion.
Q On Page 11 of document book 3, this is document 343-PS. Page 12, I am sorry, this is document No. 283, that is the letter from Rascher to the Reichsfuehrer concerning the assignment of Jarisch, Holzloehner and Singer to work on the problem of freezing; do you have that letter, Doctor?
A I have the photostat of the document, yes.
Q Was Jarisch in the Luftwaffe?
A. This is Professor Jarisch, he had no office or position in the Luftwaffe.
Q Was Holzloehner in the Luftwaffe?