"Five persons were presented to us for testing, because Gruppenfuehrer Mueller lad ordered experiments to be conducted on five persons. I checked the papers of the persons to be experimented on prior to the experiment. They were Russians draftees who had deserted, or workers, who had formed a gang, stolen and plundeder, and had even been charged with murder. They all had been sentenced to death before a special court in Pomerania. Gruppenfuehrer Mueller had already previously been given the order for execution.
"I had agreed with Dr. Ding that a preliminary experiment should be made on three persons to see the kind of area action this combination bad on the organism. Some of the condemned could speak German. They were told that those experiments wore neither dangerous nor painful, and that by taking part they world at least put off their execution. Thereupon they all volunteered. Dr. Ding chose throe of thorn. They were transferred to Block 46. There they wore given a dose of Pervitin and a subcutaneous injection of a soporific. They they had to go to bed. They fell asleep, Their sleep was very restless. One of them slept for 20 hours. The others awoke a little earlier Then he says that no need them showed the symptoms which Koehler lad shown, and that the experiment was considered completed.
In the last sentence of tie next paragraph he says: "Therefore,I told Dr. Ding that he should not make any more experiments, and I reported this to Gruppenfuehrer ueller." I shall read the last paragraph in another connection.
According to the affidavit of Dr. Morgen, Dueller ordered Ding to carry out the experiment at Buchenwald. Did you receive a report on this experiment?
A. No, I did not receive a report on it.
Q. Now could Hueller order the experiment, Ding was not bis subordinate?
A. If I was called to a discussion outside of my actual sphere of work I had to inform my chief, Grawitz, of it; and that I did in this case, I told him that I knew all about Pervitin, together with my driver I had frequently taken large doses of it, but I also knew, from literature, that Porvitin was never fatal. On the other hand, this Gruppenfuohrer Bueller was one of the most powerful and, no doubt, one of the most dangerous people in Germany. He was head of the Secret State Police, the Gestapo, and it corresponds to the entire nature and character of Grawitz that he wanted to please this man. Therefore, in my presence, he spoke to Muoller on the telephone, and Muoller explained his point of view once more, and thereupon Grawitz agreed that ing was to fulfil Mueller's request.
Q. How I come to another point. The Prosecution has submitted Document NO-301, Prosecution Exhibit 290,which is rot in any document book. It is a report from you to the Reich Criminal Police Office. It deals with Aconitin. I shall have this report banded to you. Do you have it?
A. No.
Q. I shall auk you to comment on it. You remember the report?
A. Yes.
Q. You know that General Taylor, in bis opening speech, said that this experiment with Aconitin had not been conducted in order to find an antidote against Aconitin but in order to ascertain bow long it takes to kill a human being in this manner. Please tell the Tribunal wiether this concerned an experiment.
A. This was not an experiment in tie actual sense of the word.
It was the legal execution of five robbers, and some special facts were to be ascertained during this execution. The details were as follows: One day the chemist of the Reich Criminal Police Office, Dr. Wittman, came, to me. He asked me to attend an execution as the official doctor, As the reason for this request he added that in the Government General in Poland a high official had been injured when he was attacked with a revolver; that the bullet had inflicted only a harmless flesh wound, but never-the-less the person had died after a few hours, with symptoms of poisoning. The person who had attacked him had been arrested, and the rest of the ammunition was a hollow ball which contained a crystallized poison. The Chemical Institute of the Reich Criminal Police Office tested this and found that it was Aconitim the ammunition was of Russian origin. There is no Aconitin in German, it is imported. The question was whether this was the first case of the beginning of a poison warfaro against Germany, We had been expecting such a method of warfare for some time. For that reason there was not only criminal interest in clearing up this case but a general interest of the greatest importance. This ammunition was to be tested on 5 robbers who were to be executed anyhow, and it was to be seen whether this crystallized poison contained another poison which had not been found in the chemical tests. The rest of tic original Russian ammunition was to be used, and also German ammunition which had been made in imitation of the Russian. At the same time - and this was the main purpose of the experiment - it was to be discovered how much time would be available between the injury and the appearance of the semptoms of poisoning, in order , if necessary, to be able to use an antidote. This q uestion was of such groat importance because an antidote against Aconitin is hardly known, and if this had actually been the beginning of the poison warfare, then efforts would have to be made immediately to find an antidote.
Therefore, the head of the Reich Criminal police Office asked mo, and the Chief of the Criminal Technical Office also asked me to participate in the execution myself, although that was not actually my work but Dr. Wittmann said he did not know of any toxecologist except one in Berlin who had all been drafted, and as a bacteriologist I had a certain amount of experience in symptoms of poisoning connected with bacteria and therefore he asked, me to take over this job. I was rather unwilling to do so, I pointed out to Dr. Wittmann that the Order Police, the regular police in Vienna, had a pharmacologist who was very experienced and I suggested that he should be called upon; but this was not done because of the poor connections resulting from the air warfare. Since, on the ether hand, this question was doubtless of groat significance and should not be postponed, I finally declared myself willing to fulfill this request. In accordance with the purpose of this job I made rot only tho usual report, but a rather more detailed report on the symptoms of poisoning. This is tho report which we have here in this Prosecution document.
Q. You have said that this ammunition which was captured was of Russian production How can that be proved?
A. The Prosecution itself proved that. This document NO-290is followed by a part of the files which were not included in my report. There arc 3 drawings of cross-sections of those bullets which wore made and handed in to the Institute. The heading is "Poison bullet from a Russian pistol, calibre 7.65" and details about the construction of this bullet.
Q. You say that this photostatic copy of the bullet was not part of your report.
Now is that shown? Will you compare the stamps in the diary?
A. The report which I handed in is dated 12 September 1914, and then the next day it was received by tho Criminal Technical Office, and the receipt stamp carried tho number "Secret 53." The drawings, however, have a different secret journal number, that is, 15/1944. If the number G-53 was in September, then, if the distribution of letters received is assumed to be even, throughout the year, I should assume that the belch Criminal Police Office received those drawings in March of the same year. At that time I did not know anything about this attack, and the experiment had not been started yet, Nor did I know any details about the possibility of such a poison warfare.
Q. Who was present at the execution?
A. Dr. Ding, who happened to be in Berlin and who I took with no in order to support my observations; it was he who conducted the actual medical examination. I myself merely ascertained the occurrence of death. Also Dr, Wittman, representing tho Criminal Technical Institute, also a representative of the camp commandant, I believe the adjutant, and an Untersturmfuehrer who performed the execution, that is, acutally shot tho people. It is possible that there were others whom I do not remember and whose names I do not know.
Q Did you investigate in any way who these people were who were executed, and by what court they had been condemned to death?
A I talked with the people, they understood German, t they were apparently Germans. I considered them racial Germans (Volksdeutsche)of whom we had large numbers in Germany at that time. On the other hand, I knew that in concentration camps executions were carried out, and I had been told that this was an official natter of course and that there had to be an official representative of the camp commandant present. The fact that such a representative was present at this execution was sufficient for me to assume that the natter actually was official, and on the other hand, I had no opportunity to be informed of the sentence or anything like that.
Q Then you did not see the death sentence order before it was carried out?
A No, I did not have the opportunity because the doctor is merely called into an execution to ascertain when death occurs, but I am convinced that it was not my duty to examine the sentence order, for I had nothing to do with the actual execution. The order was given by the representative of the camp commandant; someone who was attached to the commandant's office actually shot the people, and I was merely there to ascertain when death occured and to note the symptoms of poisoning, but Dr. Ding did the latter for me. The official information from a high authority was sufficient proof to me for the legality of the execution.
Q In the case of two of the five robbers, the poison had no effect. You saw the suffering of the other three from the poison; why did you not shorten this suffering?
A The sight of this execution was one of the most horrible experiences of my life. On the other hand, I could not shorten the symptoms for in the first place there was no anti dote against aconitin available.
If it is in the circulation then there is no possibility of removing it. In the second place, it was the express purpose to find out how long the symptoms po poisoning last in order in later cases to be able to use an antidote, which it was hoped would soon be discovered.
Q Did you know that executions in Germany can only be carried out by shooting, by hanging, or by beheading, and did you not have any misgivings when this execution was carried out in a different way?
A I am not a jurist, I do not know the methods of execution. On the other hand, I have already said that, in my opinion, the state itself has the right to determine the method of death for its citizens in war time and doubtless has the right to determine the method of an execution. Here the suspicion had arisen that a poison war was beginning against Germany. This seemed to be supported by the finding of poison Russian ammunition. Since the investigations were carried out by the highest authorities in the Reich, I had no doubt about the juridical admissability upon which I, as a doctor, had no influence.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, were each of these men struck by more than one bullet, or only by one bullet each?
THE WITNESS: Each one was shot only once in the thigh; two of these five persons were immediately killed by another shot, because the first shot of the poison ammunition had hit the artery in the thigh and their suffering was immediately stopped; but the others had only flesh wounds and after a certain period of time symptoms of poisoning appeared; that was three people.
DR. FLEMMING: Did you have anything else to do with the previous history of this execution?
THE WITNESS: No.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, I should like to reserve the right to further clarify this case I submit the files of the Reich Criminal Police office when I receive them.
On the 17th of December 1946 I applied for the submission of these files. On 23 January 1947, I reminded the Secretary General of this in a letter; on the 7th of February 1947 a letter from Mr. Reiser to the Secretary General recalled the matter once more, and on 8 March 1947 1 talked to Cap tain Rice of the Secretary General's office. The Secretary General has not yet succeeded in giving me the files, therefore, I ask to reserve the right to submit them later. I am convinced that the state of affairs can bo proven clearly from these files. I am also convinced that the files must be available because, as the defendant mrugowsky has already sta ted, the Prosecution has submitted two separate pieces from these files which have no connection with each other. For this reason, I ask to reserve the right to submit this document later.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the representative of the Secretary General's office make some investigation and find out where that application by counsel for the introduction of these files now is and endeavor to expedite it to the Tribunal?
BY DR. NELTE:
Q Do you know any other indication of the danger of a poison warfare, which might justify the measures, which were taken on the basis of the discovery of Russian poison ammunition?
A During war the use of poison is frequently mentioned and it cannot bo proven, but on the other hand there is an old proverb, "That every new war begins where the old war stopped." In 1941 I knew that the famous American physiological Henderson during the first World war had received an assignment from the American War Department to produce poison ammu nition for use at the front.
Fortunately, it was not used but since America was at war with us, it was a possibility that such use of poison ammunition could be feared in this war. Moreover, I knew of the use of poison in case of sabotage on several occasions. For that reason, I thought that if such an example secured as this case, there was a reson for the assumption that poison warfare was actually being opened against Germany.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, I should like to submit an excerpt from the book "Adventures in Respiration," the authorized translation from the English. This is Document Mrugowsky 31. The book itself I shall submit to the prosecution as soon as I have it from the library. I ask that the document be admitted as Mrugowsky Exhibit 47. It is on Page 182 of the Ger man and English document book. Mrugowsky 31, Exhibit 47, page 182.
MR. HARDY: May it please your Honor, we have here merely a copy of an extract from this book. It states "Excerpts from the authorized German translation of the book 'Adventures in Respiration.'" I have road this over and I cannot see the materiality of this document in this case. Furthermore I do not think it is properly authenticated to bo introduced in this form. Be that as it may, I shall formally object to the admission of this document into evidence.
DR. FLEMMING: I merely want to draw this document to the attention of the Tribunal; and I ask permission, as was given in other cases, to give the book itself to the prosecution, since it is a library book which I cannot hand in personally. I think that this excerpt is important for the defense because it says that even in the previous war the development of poisoned ammunition was worked on, so that one had to assume the danger of such ammunition being used at the front, especially if Russian ammunition was actually found to contain such a severe poison as Aconitin, not only one case but at least a whole clip of a pistol.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I submit again that this document hero concerns a war between the North and the South and assignments by the United States War Department. I don't see what the materiality is. It is not manorial at all to this issue; whether they first poisoned bullets in the Civil War in America doesn't have any bearing on it.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE SEBRING)
Q. Witness, are you familiar with this excerpt from the German translation of the book "Adventures in R. spiration by Yandell Herdcerson?
A. Yes, I know the book.
Q. Can you say for the benefit of the Tribunal when you fir st road this book or became familiar with its contents?
A. The book was published in 1941 in the German translation if I remember correctly. That is at the beginning of the cam paign in Russia, approximately. I learned to know parts of it at that time. Now, here I war reminded of this excerpt when working on the trial; and I have road this passage which I had read previously.
Q. But prior to your preparation for this trial, which I assume began in the year 1946, had you over road this partic ular excerpt which is now being offered by your counsel in evidence?
A. Yes, I had read that previously. I merely reread it again ....
Q. Can you state the approximate date upon which you first read this excerpt?
That night have been a bout 1942. It was shortly after tho German translation was published, certainly before this attack, this execution.
DR. FLEMMING: Hr. President, may I point out that the prosecutor said that this quotation which I want to submit refers to the American Civil War. That is not correct. It was worked on by Honderson in the First World War, 1914-18. After American had entered the First World Tar, Rendorsen did this work. Also, I see that tho heading says'' Herdersen." His name is really "Henderson" with an "n"; and I ask that the document be admitted.
THE PRESIDENT: the counsel for the Prosecution familiar with this book?
MR. HARDY: The Prosecution has never seen the book before, your Honor, and has not seen it yet.
THE PRESIDENT: His counsel for the prosecution ever heard of this publication?
MR. HARDY: Not until I saw the extract in the document book, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: When did counsel notice this alleged extract from the book in Mrugowsky's document book?
MR. HARDY: Pardon, your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: I say, when did counsel first observe this Mrugowsky document Number 31, which is now the subject of this argument?
MR. HARDY: I believe I observed it this morning before I c mo to court when I was chocking ever the documents in tho book. Another point that I might bring out in connection with this document, your Honor. There is no concern here about medical experimentation on human beings. In this extract it doesn't tell whether or not they proposed experimentation on human beings or on animals or what they intended to do with any results of poisonous work on behalf of the War Department.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, the document does not refer to experiments but its contents helped in making it necessary when Russian ammunition was found to take up the question incase this was one of tho reasons for assuming that possibility. What time will be available to try to save the wounded persons by those antidotes? To that ox tent this document is in direct connection with the experiments conducted on human beings.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection will be overruled and tho document will be admitted in evidence. The book should bo furnished to counsel for tho prosecution so that counsel for tho prosecution may examine the book to which counsel has referred from which this is an excerpt.
DR. FLEMMING: Yes, I shall see to that. Mr, President, then I should like to submit document Mrugowsky 32 on Page 184 of the document book; Document 52, Page 18 4, which I offer as Exhibit Mrugowsky 48. This is an affidavit of Prof. Flury at Wuerzburg, Mrugowsky 32, Page 184, Exhibit 48. I should like to read morely Number 4, one sentence in Number 5, and Number 6.
Prof. Flury says in Number 4: "Aconitin is effective both when administered throught the mouth (peroral administration) and when introduced in such a way that it does not pass throught tho alimentary tract (parenteral administration), for example, injections."
From Number 5 I shall road only tho last sentence: "With poisons like acunitin, which, are easily and quickly absorbed, death occurs after parenteral introduction in a shorter time than after peroral introduction.
"Number 6. The following maybe stated with regard to the shortest period within which death may occur. Our experience with regard to human beings is confined almost entirely to poisoning throught the stomach. This proves process is slower than injection, regarding Mich only limited and uncertain information is available regarding human beings. Death may occur some minutes after aconitine has been administered, especially if this is done perenterally, in which, case the poison enters the blood vessels. Individuals are said to have died in less than seven minutes.
In experiments with animals, which allow certain conclusions to be drawn with regard to human beings, even shorter periods have been observed, as in tie case of and experiment by Robert, in which a horse died three minutes after three milograms of acomite had boon injected under skin (subcutaneous injection)."
Q Did the Reich Criminal Police Office with this acunitin execution and the court, did it consider the question settled?
A I assume so, yes, because after sending up the report I heard no more about it.
Q Now I come to the so-called special experiment of Dr. Ding, which he mentioned in his diary on 26 October 1944, which was conducted on six persons. The examination of the witness Kogon revealed that that Dr. Ding tried out a mysterious experiment in Buchenwald on six persons, according to instructions from Dr. Mrugowsky under the Reich Criminal Police Office. What assignment had you given for this special experiment?
A I don't know of this special experiment. I learned of it only from the diary. I gave no instructions and I don't know that Dr. Ding ever received such instruction from the Reich Criminal Police Office. The incorrectness of this statement is indicated by testimony of Kogon, who said that since 1943 Ding had tried to rely only on written orders, and that he was not satisfied with oral orders, but this experiment took place only a year later. Kogon also said that Ding was rather excited, perhaps, and that the thing was every disagreeable that the matter was very disagreeable to him. He said that Ding told him everything at the time, private matters as well as official ones.
Q This remark of Kogon is in the English transcript on page 1195, in the German's on page 1216.
A Therefore, I am convinced that had Ding received a written order from me, he would have, no doubt, had shown it to Kogon, but he did not do so.
Q And if he had not received a written order from you, what do you think he would have done then?
A I don't understand the question.
Q If Ding had not received an written order from you for this experiment, although he had asked for it, what do you think he would have done then? 5219
A Then he would doubtless have expressed his opinion to Kogon.
Q Then it is your opinion that the fact he neither showed Kogon a written order, nor expressed his opinion to your refusal to give a written order is proof he had no assignment?
A Yes, and I did not give him any assignment.
Q Why in your opinion did he discuss this experiment with Kogon?
A He knew, of course, that everything that happened in camp became known rather quickly, especially things which happened in the crematorium. Therefore, he had to have some explanation for his intentions. I assume that he used this excuse which is that he gave Kogon, excuses for the killing of people on his own initiative.
Q Do you know that the witness Kogon testified that Dr. Ding had shown him a formula for a poison, and that he had given it to him to seal, and that after the experiment this sealed formula was burned. Did you ever give Dr. Ding any poison for the formula?
A No, I never gave Ding any such formula.
Q Did you ever gave him any poison to test?
A I myself never worked with poison. I was never particularly interested in poison. This was not my field of work. Consequently I would not give Ding any such assignment, and I did not give him any poison to test.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, I should like to submit now the affidavit of the co-defendant Sievers, Document Mrugowsky 33, page 187 of the Document Book, which I offer as Exhibit Mrugowsky 49, Document Mrugowsky 33, page 177, Exhibit 49. Sievers said, after the customary introduction, "After the collapse I was interned in the Military Police prison in Bamberg. There were about 100 inmates PW's and internees - in the building. One day a fellow-prisoner introduced him self to me in the lavatory as Dr. Schuler.
He asked me if I did not know him I answered in the negative and he then asked me if I knew him by the name of Ding. When I answered that question also in the negative, he told me that he was the Dr. Ding who made the typhus experiments in the Buchenwald concentration camp. Ding was very much astonished when I told him that I never heard of anything like that before. He added that after his capture he was interrogated several times about these typhus experiments, and that he wished he had his prussic acid capsules from Buchenwald with him now. When I asked what he meant by that, he said that he had prepared about 80 capsules of prussic acid in Buchenwald at the end of 1933, but had unfortunately not kept one for himself so as to be able to commit suicide.
Because I did not know Dr. Ding, and did not care very much for the conversations, I broke off the conversation. The accidental meeting could only have lasted for a short time, because the stay in the lavatory was limited to a few minutes only. I was not told the purpose for which Dr. Ding prepared the prussic acid capsules, or what happened to the 80 capsules I did not speak to Dr. Ding again."
BY DR. FLEMMlNG:
Q. If Dr. Ding had had prussic acid in this special experiment, would he have explained the effect which Dr. Schiedlowsky described in his affidavit, which has been submitted by the Prosecution?
A. Of course I don't know what prussic acid Dr. Ding used. The customary prussic acid preparation is of potassium cyanide, and for use of the same effect, you use prussic acid, and the preparations are similar; the potassium cyanide, of course, is very well known, and they would explain the symptoms which Dr. Schiedlowsky described, and would be also of a quick death.
Q. Did Dr. Ding later report to you about this poison experiment?
A. No, he did not.
Q. The witness Kogon on page 1185 of the English Document Book, page 1216 of the German's, testified that before this experiment that Ding was excited. Can you imagine for what reason this was?
A. I myself would have no explanation for it, if I had not read the book by waiter Poller, which he wrote as a medical clerk at Buchenwald. He described Dr. Ding very carefully, from the period of 1938 to 1940, and he asserts that as official he repeatedly killed inmates by injection, and each time before such killing he was very much excited. Then he said this changed when observed soon established in my memory was to me so typical that later I had only to note this change in him in order to know that he intended to commit a murder, or a crime. I should think that this characteristic should explain Ding's conduct in this case.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, in this connection I come back to Document Mrugowsky's ho. 29, on page 177, in Document Book Exhibit Mrugowsk's Exhibit No. 36, Document 29, page 177. Exhibit No. 36. I should like to read the last paragraph on Page 181.
"While making my investigations, I also discovered that there was a hole, 40 cm deep, in the floor beneath the office desk of the shelter marshal (Bunkermeister), in which a strong box containing poison had been kept. However, even prior to Koehler's death the poison had been thrown into the lavatory and flushed away by order of the shelter marshal, so that its type could not be determined anymore. The origin of the poison remained unknown. Dr. Morgen."
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. SEIDL: (Counsel for the Defendant Oberheuser) Mr. President, I ask permission to make an application on the part of Defendant Oberheuser regarding the trial. Earlier in the trial the Court ruled that Oberheuser's case, because of its connections with tho others, should be treated at the same time with those of Gebhardt and Fischer. This was not poss ible because in tho meantime Oberheuser fell ill. I ask you now to permit Oberheuser's case, or at least her interrogation, to take place after the case of Defendant Mrugowsky is concluded. Let me add that the Prosecution has agreed to this suggestion.
MR. HARDY: The prosecution has no objection to this procedure, Your honor, and we think it night expedite matters for Dr. Seidl if defendant Oberheuser comes on after Defendant Mrugowsky.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any objection to this procedure on the part of any defense counsel? There being none, the case of the Defendant Oborheuser will be taken up following the case of Defendant Mrugowsky.
DR. SEIDL: Thank you, Mr. President.
BY DR. FLEMMING:
Q. Before the recess I read Dy. Morgen's affidavit saying that there was a hole in tho floor to hold poisons. Would you make a statement on ti is subject?
A. This testimony on tho part of the competent investigating physician proved that the camp itself had considerable supplied of poison. Even if the contents of these boxes were destroyed, there is at least reasons to assume that later another supply of poison was collected, from which supply Ding might have got his poison.
Q. You know tho affidavit by Schiedlowsky, the camp doctor at Buchenwald, Document NO-508, Prosecution Exhibit 224, in document book No. 10. Dr. Schiedlowsky stated therein that Ring asked him to come to the bunker to attend an experiment with poison. According to his affidavit, he reached the bunker only after the experimental subject had been given poison; he did not know in what form that took place or what the poison was. Please tell us whether the symptoms that Schiedlowsky observed in his brief presence there correspond to the symptoms that you observed in the case of Acenitin.
A. The semptoms that Schiedlowsky observed were apparently different. Let me mention that the symptoms involving the stomach, such as vomiting and diarrhea occur in cases of most strong poisons, From this symptom alone you cannot conclude that the two Poisons are identical; but Schiedlowsky says that the effects occurred relatively rapidly,in other words more rapidly than in Sachsonhausen, where two tours elapsed before death. In this case death occurred rather rapidly. Also Schiedlowsky says that one, person became unconscious, Aconitin poisoning docs not load to unconsciousness.
A. In other words, you conclude from this that the poison that ding used was not Aconitin?
A. In my opinion he must have used different poison.