His practise, as far as the influence of the party, went, was systematically reduced. For his farm at Komotav for a long time he was refused the so-called farmers certificate, although he cultivated his farm in a examplatory way. His promotion from a Lieutenant to Captain was long delayed because of the political conduct certificate.
Q. Witness, do you know the document in this case, the letter which Dr. Pokorny wrote to Himmler in October 1941? Did you hear anything about it?
A. Yes, I knew the contents from what my sister told me and what Dr. Pokorny later told me himself.
Q. Witness, please describe carefully, to the Tribunal under what circumstances this conversation took place and exactly what Mr. Pokorny said, giving the date as far as you can remember.
A. In the spring of 1942 my sister who was at the time living in Komotau came to us in Reichenberg for a visit. She was at that time getting a divorce from her first marriage and wanted to be away from Komotau for the transition period. She probably expected that I would help her. She remained with us for two or three months until the formalities of the divorce proceedings required her presence in Komotau again. When she was sitting with my wife and myself one evening she said that Dr. Pokorny when he was still in civilian practice had treated a patient who said he was a member in the SD in the protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia. This patient attracted attention by his request to be treated, outside of normal hours. In the course of the conversation during the treatment which lasted several weeks this patient announced that the highest political circles were entertaining ideas of sterilizing prisoners by operation. The point of view here was to prevent an inter-marriage with the population of the country. And on a later visit this patient had mentioned an article which he had found in a magizine in the waiting room. This magazine contained a report about the result of sterilization experiments on animals by a foreign poison plant. Referring to this article, he had asked Dr. Pokorny whether this drug could be used for sterilizing human beings.
Dr. Porkorny had said "no." Dr. Porkorny, my sister went on to say, was shocked at the intentions of castration and could not get over the idea that the intention was to treat human beings like animals. He regretted that the medical professors and other authorities did not have the courage to oppose such intentions. My sister added, that Dr. Porkorny, acting on this conversation, had made a suggestion by letter to one of the highest SS agencies, that this foreign poison plant be used for the sterilization experiments. Thus he was convinced attention would be detracted from the method by operation. Dr. Porkorny expected no results from this drug but he thought that it would be a good way to pigeonhole the whole thing.
Q. Witness, did you yourself discuss the matter with Dr. Porkorny and when was it?
A. A few weeks later Dr. Porkorny also came to visit us in Reichenberg. That must have been at Pentacost 1942 or a week when there was a Catholic holiday shortly before or afterwards. On one of these holidays we and the two women and my two children went on an excursion to Friedland in the Isengebirge to look at the Warenstein castle, and it's museum. While we were walking in the park of the castle in the neighborhood of Friedland, I intentionally brought the conversation to this information which my sister had given me shortly before hand. Dr. Porkorny first of all corrected my view that he had expressed any judgment. Botany had always been his hobby and in earlier years at medical Congresses he had reported on the results of his own research. There were special publications on the subject in his book cases which I had often seen. Dr. Porkorny said that the paper would cause experiments and all the red tape connected with it and that was from his point of view what he wanted to impose on the authorities concerned.
If he had expressed any opinion himself he would have saved the work. He confirmed what my sister had told me.
Q. Witness, what was your re-action?
A. My first re-action was that this letter was a very serious matter, although I knew the reasons which load Dr. Porkorny to write it. I may have said this to Dr. Porkorny too and when I said that I would not like to have my name in Himmler's files Dr. Porkorny repeated his motives and said that something had to be done. One can't explain everything with rationalization and use careful common sense.
Q. Mr. President, in connection with the testimony of the witness Trux I should like to offer a document for identification which is in my document book I on Page 30, document No. 15, which will be Exhibit No. 21. This is a certificate of the Czechoslovakian Republic about the political circumstances regarding the witness Trux, on the basis of investigations.
MR. HARDY: I would like to know just what this document is. I would like to have it explained.
DR. HOFFMAN: Mr. President, this document which I shall show to the witness for identification is an official statement of the Czech Republic stating that the witness Trux is recognized as an Anti-Facist by the office for National Security and is exempt from wearing an indentification badge pursuant to ordinance 637.
BY DR. HOFFMAN:
Q. Witness, please look at this photostat and tell the Tribunal whether this certificate's made out for you?
A. Yes. I have the original of this. It was issued for me to certify that I am an Anti-Facist, that I did not belong to the Party, and according to the terminology of the Czech authorities, I am considered politically reliable.
DR. HOFFMAN: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, do you desire to offer the photostat card as an exhibit?
DR. HOFFMAN: I offered it as Exhibit No. 21
THE PRESIDENT: And it has the same number as the certified copy of this card which is in your document book?
DR. HOFFMAN: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Exhibit will be admitted in evidence.
TEE PRESIDENT: Does the defense counsel have any questions to propound to this witness? Being no questions, the prosecution may cross-examine.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I might request the defense counsel for Dr. Pokorny if it would be convenient to call his witness Dr. Friederick Jung before he calls Dr. Friederich Koch.
DR. HOFFMANN: Mr. President, I should prefer to call Dr. Koch first and then Dr. Jung.
MR. HARDY: I am asking if it would be convenient for him to call Dr. Jung first. The prosecution would like him called first inasmuch as I wish to prepare some work for the witness Koch and I haven't had a too long knowledge that Dr. Koch was coming here as a witness and I would like to work over it a bit during the recess this afternoon or at noontime.
DR. HOFFMANN: Mr. President, I would be glad to oblige Mr. Hardy but I need Dr. Jung after Dr. Koch and I announced in time that Dr. Koch was coming.
MR. HARDY: In that event it may be necessary after the completion of the direct examination of Koch for the prosecution to ask for a delay in cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will entertain the request when it is made.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Mr. Trux, what is your occupation?
A. I am a bank director by profession, that is, I was until 1945. Since then I have been director of a textile machine factory in Austria.
Q. When did you meet Dr. Pokorny for the first time?
A. After the World War, I think. I can't remember today of course. I became close friends with him after 1938. I was in Komotau frequently in connection with the illness of my mother whom Dr. Pokorny treated.
Q. When did Dr. Pokorny first start courting your sister?
A. I am not informed about that. My sister was a friend of Dr. Pokorny for many years.
Q. Dr. Pokorny married her in 1943, is that correct?
A. Yes, October 1943.
Q. Your sister had been married previous to that time?
A. Yes, I mentioned before that in the spring of 1942 she visited us in Reichenberg in connection with her divorce.
Q. And at that time she spoke to you relative to a situation wherein Dr. Pokorny had met a high official of the SD?
A. Yes.
Q. What was it she told you about his meeting of the high official of the SD more specifically?
A. I can only repeat what I said before. A patient came who said that he was a member of the higher SD in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and who was unusual because he has to be treated outside of the normal hours.
Q. Did Dr. Pokorny ever talk about any other patients of the SD or the SS?
A. By name, no, no one. It might have happened that he made general statements about a certain case and draw general conclusions from the case but I can't remember that any specific cases were talked about except for purposes of illustration.
Q. Did Dr. Pokorny and your sister tell you that the matter concerning his letter to Himmler was secret?
A. No.
Q. You of course have read the letter?
A. I know the contents.
Q. In the letter he states--
A. I was told about it by Dr. Pokorny and my sister.
Q. You haven't read the letter? Hasn't the defense counsel presented the letter to you to read?
A. Yes, I read the text once.
Q. The letter of Pokorny tells Himmler he will keep this matter secret, doesn't he?
Don't you recall that in the letter?
(No answer)
Pokorny states in the last sentence of the letter to Himmler, "As a German physician and chief physician of the reserves of the German Wehrmacht retired I undertake to keep secret the purpose as suggested by me in this letter." Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. He wrote this letter in October 1941, did he not?
A. Yes, he told me it was a few months before; I talked to him in the spring of 1942 and he had written this letter a few months beforehand.
Q. So he didn't keep it secret if he told you about it, did he?
A. Well, of course these things were confidential.
Q. Did he tell you that he had proposed that experiments be conducted?
A. Well, I could see that from what I was told from the contents of the letter.
Q. Then you understood that Pokorny was proposing that experiments be carried out with this poison plant, caladium?
A. Yes, that is what I understood. Dr. Pokorny from the very beginning very clearly expressed the opinion that this was an experiment with a useless drug because he expected nothing from this poison and because the cultivation of the plant during the war would be impossible, as he said repeatedly.
Q. But you understood that the reason why Pokorny proposed these experiments was because he thought the drug was useless?
A. The motive of Dr. Pokorny was doubtless to gain time.
Q. I didn't ask you, witness, about the motive. I asked you to repeat my answer to my question, the reason why Dr. Pokorny suggested that the experiments be conducted was because he thought that the drug to be used was useless, hence the sterilization would not take effect.
A. Yes, he said to me repeatedly that he wanted to distract attention from the method of operation.
That, perhaps, was the motivating factor.
Q. In any event you clearly understood that Pokorny had proposed to Himmler that he should experiment with this plant?
A. Yes, but Dr. Pokorny was working from the assumption that the poison could not be obtained during the war.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: No further questions for defense counsel? The witness Trux then is excused from the witness stand. The Marshal will summon the witness Dr. Ernst Koch.
(DR. ERNST KOCH, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:)
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q. Hold up your right hand and be sworn.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q. When and where were you born?
A. On the 17th of February, 1901, in Fulltau in Westphalia.
Q. What education have you had?
A. I attended the public schools for four years and the Real Gymnasium in Quackenburg for five years. Then I intended to study medicine. My parents did not permit that. I had to study national economy but secretly I took courses in medicine. Since 1922 I secretly studied medicine on the side. In 1924 I took the physical examination for the doctor's examination in 1326 the State examination; then I became assistant at the Medical Clinic in Cologne. In 1929 I became assistant at the bacteriological institute in Cologne. In 1932 I became chief physician at this institute. In 1935 I was put in charge of the biological institute of Dr. Madaus in Radeheul.
Q Witness, what scientific papers have you written?
AAbout seventy, mostly on the basis of animal experiments.
Q And what are you doing at present?
AAt present I am working for Madus and Company in Bonn.
Q And where did you work until the collapse?
A In Radebeul, and briefly before the collapse I was transferred to Moern, Hamburg.
Q What position did you have for Madaus and Koch in Hamburg?
A I was in charge of the biological institute.
Q Witness, in the Journal for Experimental Medicine did you publish a paper about caladiun?
A Yes, together with Dr. Gerhard Madaus.
Q In the "Unschau" -- you know the "Umschau"?
A Yes.
Q Did you publish an article about caladium?
A No.
Q Who did?
A Dr. Gerhard Madaus.
Q What was the purpose of your paper in the Journal for Experimental Medicine?
A The firm of Dr. Madaus produced drugs from medicinal plants. This did not seem to have a scientific basis in the eyes of many German doctors, and it was the duty of the biological institute to carry out scientific research on medicinal plants, especially to determine the effect of such plants exactly in animal experimentation. Dr. Madaus had very special interest in the influence of medicinal plants on the function of the inner organs, especially the function of the glands with internal secretion.
The exact purpose of the paper I indicated in the paper itself. On page 69, the occasion for our investigations was the question - to what extent the experience of popular medicine and the practices based on this experience could be brought into conformity with the laws of pharmacology, physiology and experimental therapy."
This shows the purpose of our working plan.
Q Witness, was the purpose of this publication to announce a drug for sterilization, perhaps for use in the eugenic courts?
A No, this was not the purpose of the paper. As I have already said, the examination of the question of what influence caladium had on the function of the glands with internal secretion. If the paper had had such a purpose, then we would have had to multiply the caladium plants. We never did that. We would also have had to isolate the effective agent in the plant and determine the chemical formula. We did not do that. Without this procedure the question would have been quite senseless.
Q Witness, then you realized that this caladium did not represent a drug that could be used for the sterilization of human beings?
A Yes, of course.
Q How could that be seen from your paper, that this was not a drug for sterilizing human beings?
A There are many points in the paper where one can see that very clearly.
Q Witness, please do not quote. Since you wrote the paper yourselff, just tell us about those reasons.
A On page 69 I said expressly that this was no prospect of procedure for human beings. I also said that the experiments were in part positive and in par? negative, also on page 69; that the time until the drug took effect was subject to extreme variation; thay in some cases after l40 to 160 days there was no effect; that large amounts of the extract were needed in comparison to the body weight of the animal; than the treatment took 77 to 218 days? that in female animals the sterility produced, we assumed to be only temporary; that it was unknown how long sterility would continue after treatment was discontinued; that the changes in the hypophysis were not the same as those produced by castration; that the method of action of the plant in the body was unknown; that we had not thought of isolating the effective agent and producing it artificially.
I am sure there are other points, but I think that will be enough.
Q Witness, do you believe that an average doctor, after reading your paper, would be convinced that there was no possibility of using caladium for sterilization?
A I should like to say that if he had looked at the paper and read through the passages which I have just quoted, he would have had to realize that.
Q Witness, you published this paper and Dr. Madaus had published an article in tho "Unschau". Did you concern yourself with tho grooving of caladium or was* there any special reason for the question of caladiun being taken up in your institute?
A In 1936-37 we carried out tests on caladium with plants which happened to be available among our medicinal plants, and in 1939-40 we did the same. There was never any cultivation on any large scale. We often had difficulties in carrying out the experiments because there happened to be no plant material available. Then in 1942 I was suddenly told by a General Pohl that I was to come to Berlin for a conference.
Q What kind of a general was that?
A From the SS.
Q And what happened in Berlin?
A The conferences in Berlin, "Unter den Eichen" were in a big building, apparently Pohl's office. The guard received me, saying that the General had been waiting for twenty minutes. I was taken up to him and he said that he was not pleased that I had written a paper on caladium; that it was undesirable for Germany's position abroad or some such thing. I can't repeat his exact words. And therefore he asked me in the future to refrain from making such publications, but he asked that the tests be continued and that we tell the SS or rather him, about the results. We were to continue the tests on a broad basis, wore to cultivate caladium, were to try to grow the caladium from seed, and he had a few other wishes, but I can't remember them at the moment.
Q Witness, did you realize during this discussion what Pohl wanted caladium for?
A No, that was not entirely clear to me, but the way in which Pohl opened this discussion and the way in which he pointed out the significance of these investigations immediately disturbed me and made me suspicious.
Q If I understand you correctly you said before that on the basis of your work there was no possibility of sterilizing human beings with caladium. Now, since you were suspicious, as you just said, didn't you toll Pohl that nothing could be done with caladium?
A. I tried very hard to convince Pohl that this work would take very long, that it would be very difficult, that it would take many years before there would be any progress. I pointed out that this question interested us from the purely scientific point of view with respect to the influence on the function of the inner organs and the function of the glands with inner secretion, and that after we had cleared up this question we had stopped our investigation in 1940 and that we had no intention of resuming this work and no intention of publishing such work again.
Q. Witness, did you have the impression that Pohl did not have a very high opinion of caladium but was following an order from above?
A. Yes, I am sure he had such an impression but I don't believe that I could give any exact reason for it. I had the impression first that Pohl had a high opinion of the significance of the caladium experiments in the beginning but then I told him all the difficulties, the extremely long duration of the experiments - one was 184 days, another was 357 days. I pointed out all these difficulties to him and I told him that there was no caladium available, or at least that there were only very small amounts, that this plant grows in America, that it is very difficult to grow, and that it can be grown in Germany only in hot houses. And then he asked me, "Can't that be grown from seed?" and I said that growing tropical plants from seed in Germany was often very difficult because insects which exist in the tropics and which plants are adapted to do not exist here and, therefore, it would be necessary to pollenize such plants artificially, and that this had succeeded in many cases, but how it was for caladium I didn't know because I did not carry out such experiments myself but I had heard how our botanists dealt with such questions on principle. I pointed out the great difficulties perhaps in my own interest; I even exaggerated them a bit.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the Tribunal will now be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q: Witness, you told the Tribunal before the recess, that you spoke with Pohl in Berlin. Did you see him again?
A: Yes, twice. Once in 1942 - I don't know the precise date but I do know that there were peaches so it must have been in the autumn. I was in the biological institute at that time and all of a sudden was told that high SS generals or officers were in our plantation. This garden was 3 kilometers from the institute. I know that I was surprised because in the matter of caladium I had undertaken nothing; besides, I was afraid that I might be denounced because of the 16 anti-fascistic collaborators, who were in part political prisoners, whom I employed in the institute. I immediately went to the plantation and found Pohl with a large staff with him who had come in 2 large automobiles. He immediately introduced me to a doctor named Lolling and told me that in the future Lolling would supervise these experiments and that I should report to Lolling on the results of the experiments. In addition, he specifically required -- of, I forgot to say before, that at the conclusion of the conference in Berlin, Pohl gave me no precise orders or assignment -- but now he gave me the specific order that caladium experimentation was to be carried on on a broad basis. Then we were to examine the question whether native plants contained effective substances of the same sort as caladium.
Q: Witness, when Pohl ordered you to produce caladium, at what stage were your experiments at that time?
A: At that time there were no experiments at all. The whole matter had come to nothing in 1940; there had been nothing done to follow it up. That was toward the end of 1940. At any rate, in 1940, at the time of the publication of this paper, no experiments were under way.
Q: Did you then unertake further experimentation after Pohl gave you this order, and until when did you do so?
A: Yes, I did. At first we experimented on Drosophila-melogonasta, which is a fly. The results of these experiments were completely negative. The records of the experiments are probably available. Then we experimented on mice. After a few weeks this experiment was broken off, having had no positive results because all the animals died. We put in the record that they died because of an epidemic among themselves. Then there were what we called in our records Sterilization Experiment No. 4. It was carried out on 46 rats in toto but they were strictly subdivided so that, if I remember correctly, every single plant or variety of caladium was given to, I think, 5 rats.
This experiment lasted 184 days and I believe that in May 1943 we reported on this, then there was the last experiment, Experiment No. 5 with perhaps 60 animals altogether. I can't give you the number precisely because I don't have my documentation any more. This experiment lasted 357 days. That was in the middle of 1944 and then I believe after that no one was interested in any more experiments of this wort.
Q: Witness, I shall now put to you a report on the experimental series No. 5 on rats along with the charts and I ask you to tell the Tribunal whether these are the results of your last experiment?
A: Yes, these are the reports on the last experiment.
DR. HOFFMANN: Mr. President, I put this record of the last experiment which the witness has just identified in evidence as Exhibits 22 and 23. They are in the Pokorny Document Book Nos. 27 and 28, the report and the tables respectively.
Q: Then it can be clearly seen, witness, that your last experiments were without result and were broken off having had no results?
A: Yes, that is so. However, I must explain in this connection that since 1940 we had not thought of these experiments as scientifically significant. If we were expecting any sort of results from them in the way they were carried out these experiments were of such a nature that you can derive nothing of scientific value from them today. The reason for that is that we assumed that the SS or Pohl was pursuing intentions which we did not agree with. For that reason the experiments were planned and carried out in the way I have just described, namely, in such a way as to lead to no reliable scientific results.
Q: Witness, even if you assume that the experiments were undertaken seriously do you believe on the basis of your knowledge particularly in the field of caladium that in the calculable future anything would have come of them?
A: No, there is no reason for believing that there would. That is to say, nothing would indicate that which would be anything like scientific proof. We only had experiences with animals and the results with the animals could not be transferred to human beings.
Q: Do you believe this was enough assurance for an average doctor so that he could believe that no experiments of any importance could be carried on with caladium?
A: If the doctor reflected on the fact that it was necessary to treat animals from 70 to 120 days and that they were still uncertain elements then from this fact alone you can readily see that the doctor would not then feel that he could carry out experiments on human beings. The human beings would have to be segregated, locked up; they would have to be guarded all the time because as soon as the person noticed that this drug that he was talking didn't agree with him he could bring about artificial vomiting and thus frustrate the experiment. The drugs had to be taken in amounts from 40 to 60 kilograms for every human person in order to have the same results or corresponding results to the results from the animal experiments. That is a very large amount. This factor also would have persuaded ary normal doctor. There are also other indication in the paper to the effect that this work was at a stage that permitted no discussion so far as to its applicability to human beings. In the paper on page 69 I specifically mentioned that, precisely in order to prevent some imaginative doctors hitting on the crazy notion of pursuing the matter in that direction.
Q: Doctor, did you have in Dresden the necessary number of hot houses to grow the necessary amounts of caladium?
A: At first we had no hot house for caladium; whether it was grown in the tropical houses so to speak on the side, then Pohl's order came to produce greater aaounts of caladium and he made available a large hot house to us which I, however, refused on the basis, saying there was no purpose to that because we didn't have the plants. Then we were given permission to attach a hot house that already existed to a heating plant that already existed. This was 196 cubic meters and perhaps 270 plants could have grown in it.
Q: Was caladiua extract ever produced for the sterilization of human beings?
A: No, and I am convinced that not even one gram was produced this without my knowledge because the two people entrusteu with producing this contract, Mr. Bisker, anti-fascist, well known, and Mr. Beiger was the other, a laboratory assistant of his, - he had been arrested for political reasons a few yea.rs previous to that and both hatea che third Reich vehemently. Now, that these two men might have given anything to the SS, that I consider quite out of the question.
Q: Witness, yesterday the prosecution put in an affidavit, an affidavit by Karl Wilhelm Friedrich Teauboeck. Would you please make a statement regarding this affidavit.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will shew that the witness is now examining Prosecution Identification No. 528.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, do you expect to examine the witness, Dr. Friederich Jung, in connection with this same affidavit? I suggest that you show the witness in advance the affidavit before he takes the stand, thereby saving the time of reading it when he takes the stand.
BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q: I just want to ask you very briefly about this affidavit. First, do you know a man by the name of Tauboeck?
A: I never heard that name.
Q: Do you know a man named Weiss?
A: I know lots of people name Weiss, but the man designated here as Dr. Weiss, who worked for me, I cannot remember him for certain. I do seem to remember that after Pohl's visit in our garden and I believe after Lolling's visit to the institute, there was still another commission there and it is possible that Dr. Weiss was a member of this commission, but, I cannot remember him. In 1938 I had more than 8,000 doctors in the institute and it is impossible for me to know the names of all the visitors.
Q: Would you call a person who studied primarily botany a specialist in this field?
A: He might be an expert in the field of botany, but in the field of medicine, I should be very dubious whether he is a specialist, because regarding histological preparation and their make-up he makes statements here and he asserts that he practically had worked with histology in Vienna, but although I have great histological experience in the field of animal experimentation, in all important questions I always consulted a specialist pathologist, that is a man who concerned himself 20 years or more with histology. I always chose one who also specialized in this specific field and he had specialized in the field of the glands with inner-secretion. For instance, Professor Profeierte, who was in the question of the influence of Caladium on the structure, that is to say the structure form of the tissues.