I had the impression that Hippke had known Rascher before, but I thought this was the first time they had talked possibly.
Q. Well, then the testimony of Weltz was enlightening to you when Weltz told us he had discussed the problem with Hippke himself in the summer of 1941?
A. Yes, I heard that.
Q. However you still maintain that the date of June 1942 when the meeting between Hippke and Rascher took place?
A. Yes.
Q. Your Honor, I might suggest that we could have a ten minute recess if it meets with the approval of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Tribunal will be in recess for a few minutes.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BY MR. HARDY (Continued)
Q Dr. Becker-Freyseng, how often in the course of professional business in the Office of the medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe, did Professor Hippke refer to the referent of Aviation Medicine in regard to matters pertaining to that particular field?
A I am afraid that is a question I can't answer. I could say how often Hippke called me, for instance.
Q Well, he called you in; how often?
A Not very often. I would estimate that it was five to 10 times but I wouldn't want to give any definite figure. It was certainly not oftener than that.
Q How often did Hippke concern himself with matters in the field of Aviation Medicine without referring to the referent?
A Very frequently I am sure. I alone of quite a number of matters, where Professor Hippke for example, delivered lectures on aviation medicine.
Q How do you know about them?
A Because I heard them later.
Q He never reported to you about them or told you about them or asked your advice about them?
A Those are two questions, you ask me first, whether Hippke reported to me, - no. It is not customary for the boss to report to his subordinate, and he very seldom asked me for advice. The referat was Anthony. There is an old German saying that you should get to the Blacksmith and not to his apprentice and during Anthony's time Anthony was the blacksmith. Only when Anthony was not there or when it was something very specific that I had worked with then Professor Hippke called me. For example, at the discussion we have just been talking about.
Q Then I presume whenever Professor Hippke concerned himself in matters in the field of Aviation Medicine that he would consult with Anthony, that was the reason why he had Anthony there?
A I can't quite answer this in the affirmative, because I know of cases when Professor Hippke dealt with aviation medicine questions himself without consulting Anthony.
Q How could your office, that is Anthony have efficiently performed his task in the assignment without have complete knowledge of the activities in his field.
A In my explanation of the duties of the referent, which is very thorough, I said that the referent worked on the orders of his superiors and of course it happened from time to time that these superiors acted independently on an aviation medicine question without consulting the refereat for aviation medicine.
Q Well, now you tell us that it was your understanding in these experiments that criminals condemned to death were to be used, is that correct?
A I don't believe I said that. I said that convicted criminals were used. From that discussions between Hippke and Rascher I didn't know of anything about the persons condemned to death, and I never said so.
Q What is your opinion about the ability of a person incarcerated to volunteer for an experiment?
A I should like to refer again to my direct examination and repeat briefly that in the first place from many works of German and foreign works, I know that throughout the world the possibility is recoginized for prisoners to volunteer.
Q I am not interested in the possibility throughout the world; I want to know Becker-Freyseng's opinion, what do you think about the possibility of a person incarcerated in prison to volunteer for an experiment?
A My personal opinion is that under the conditions an incarcerated person volunteers readily for such an experiment when a special miti gation of sentence is promised to him, and even if no such promise is amde, because he can assume that by participating in such an experiment he will put himself in a good light in the eyes of the parole board, and most of the prisoners would be interested in that.
Q Well, now you issued or ordered the sea-water experiments, or initiated them, or whatever nomenclature you wish to adopt; you have told us you have accepted the responsibility for the sea-water experiments, and in the sea-water experiments that used concentration camp inmates; those inmates were criminals, convicted criminals; did you approve of using convicted criminals in those experiments?
A I want to correct one thing first, I said even today I take responsibility for the sea-water experiments, that is the responsibility which was due to me at the time according to my position as referent, to come back to your question --
Q Just a moment, Doctor. In connection with that if you assume responsibility for the sea water experiments. Then you did anticipate or would you state that Anthony would or should assume responsibility for all these experiments performed on behalf the Luftwaffe, -- that is that happened prior to May, 1944?
A I cannot say that, because I don't know what part Anthony had in the planning or suggestion of these experiments.
Q You just stated Doctor, you assume full responsibility for sea water experiments because of your position as referent in the Referat of Aviation Medicine, now by the some taken don't you think it possible that Anthony should accept responsibility of the experiments was brought home to the Referat?
A Under this last condition I believe Anthony would still take the responsibility today, but I should like to point put that I make a clear distinction between the sea water experiments and other experiments as far as the participation of the Referat for Aviation Medicine is concerned. I get this from the documents submitted by the Prosecution, and I do not believe Anthony would take the responsibility for experiments which he never suggested or in the planning of which he participated, one can stake responsibility only for things which one plans or suggestes or carries out ones self.
Q Would you assume responsibility for the sea water experiments? One must assume that have had jurisdiction in order to assume responsibility
A I believe in the course of my direction examination I explained my responsibility very carefully. I did not have jurisdiction nor independent supervision, but I had since there was no other possibility for carrying out these sea water experiments, and since my own plan which I mentioned of treating a group of the Luftwaffe at Jueterbog in order to have experimental persons at the disposal at any convenient time. This plan was rejected by my superiors, I pointed out that as a last possibility that these experiments, which I considered completely harmless, and I take the responsibility of that -
Q We will come to the sea water phase a little later. I want to go back to the subject of volunteers used in your sea water experiments You knew they were going to use convicted criminals, that is what you understood would take place that convicted criminals were to be used in the experiments?
A Yes.
Q And what did you understand would be the reward given to the convicted criminal for subjecting himself voluntary to the sea water experiment?
A In the case of the sea water experiment he never mentioned any special rewards. I said before that I can imagine that a criminal volunteers, not only for a special reward, but also without such a reward. There were several reasons -
Q And you are not sure whether any rewards were offered?
A I know that Professor Beigelbock procured special cigarettes rations for these people and give them to them, and that he tried to get other rewards.
Professor Beigelbock will tell you about that himself.
Q Did you see him give the cigarettes to the prisoners?
A Since I was never in Dachau I did not see that. I have already stated.
Q Inasmuch as you were taking full responsibility for the sea water experiments do you think that it would have been much better had you though about the matters more seriously and offered a reward to the political prisoners that volunteered for the experiments or offered a reward to perhaps a Jew incarcerated in a concentration camp for having committed Rassenschande, rather than offering a reward to a criminal who might go out and be a menace to the public again; didn't that occur to you? You are a clear thinking young man, or weren't you interested?
A I must tell you that my chief, Professor Schroeder, as is true with the Reichsarzt of the SS Police, told me that he had talked to Grawitz about soldiers unworthy for military service being used for these experiments. As far as I know everything else was eliminated because I had nothing to do with the selection of the subjects nor with the question of reward. Besides I am convinced that if I had suggested that political prisoners be used for these experiments the prosecution would use that as a special charge against me today.
Q Well, now in the field of high altitude research you have testified here quite extensively concerning the adaptability of experimental subjects to high altitudes, inasmuch as you are an expert in this field, a man who has done considerable work in Heildelberg since the end of the war in explosive decompression, can you tell me how many times an average individual can undergo a high altitude experiment and in what space of time he can undergo said experiments before he becomes adapted to high altitudes?
A I don't know where you get the idea that I had done a great deal of work in explosive decompression.
I never said so.
Q You have done it at Heidelburg since the end of the war, haven't you done a considerable amount of work in explosive decompression at Heidelburg? That is what I understood from your direct examination?
A No, I worked on bends, that is the condition when a altitude of 12,000 meters altitude or some other altitude is reached normally. Explosive decompression is a change in pressure taking place within seconds from normal pressure to the pressure of very high altitude.
Q. Doctor, do you feel that you are in a position to testify before this Tribunal concerning the adaptability of an experimental subject to high altitude as an expert?
A. Yes, I assume so, because I have performed experiments myself on adaptability to high altitude.
Q. Can you answer my question, does a person ever become adapted to high altitude?
A. In this general form the question has to be answered in the affirmative.
Q. And if a person becomes adapted to high altitude, I imagine he would be useless for experimental purposes?
A. That depends on the nature of the experiments one wants to conduct, for certain types of experiments this condition is not the correct basis, that is true.
Q. It follows, however, that you would not get average statistics if you used a person who became adapted to high altitude?
A. Yes, they would be average figures under these special conditions.
Q. Is there any set period wherein a person becomes adapted to high altitude; for instance, would it be four or five times undergoing extreme altitude in a period of a week, which would cause a person to become adapted to it; or would it be within a month or would some people never became adapted or is it possible to strike an average? You may answer that extensively if you care to, doctor.
A. I will be glad to do so because one can explain this matter very simply and I shall try to do so. Genuine adaptation to altitude is only the circumstance or rather the condition arising after a stay at high altitude for some time. For example, in the Alps between 3,000 and 4,000 meters it takes about two weeks to be complete. At even higher altitudes, for example, in the Andes or the Himalayas, it is possible for the mountain climbers to go up to 8,000 meters and adapt themselves to this altitude and this of course takes even longer. Between this true altitude adaptation and what occurs when a person rises rapidly in the low pressure chamber for a limited times there is a definite distinction.
It is not possible to obtain altitude adaptation through repeated stays in a low pressure chamber. In any case not if these low pressure chamber experiments are limited to a period of time to two, three or four months and if for example there is only one ascent per day and then after the second, third or fourth time the person is a little more resistant than the first time.
Q. After the first or second time, did you say?
A. Yes, but that means only very slight increases in the resistance to altitude. It is possible because in the first ascent the subject is unused to this new situation and does not act quite right, perhaps the breathing is not quite right, and these inhibitions will be removed on the second or third time when the subject is used to the situation. Now if we continue these pressure chamber ascents for years, such as the people working in aviation medicine are forced to do, the much later, say after nine months or a year, there is a further improvement in the resistance to altitude, but this does not approach what is caused by a stay in the mountains. I do not believe that the results of experiments would be influenced by it if within three months, twenty or thirty or thirty-five experiments were performed on the same person.
Q. Supposed you used me for instance as an experimental subject. Do you think I could take five of these tests a week and not become adapted for a period of three weeks?
A. According to what I have just said, I do not believe that you would be adapted after three weeks. I assume that you are healthy; you could of course undertake five experiments with the lack of oxygen within a week without suffering any ill effects.
Q. For a period of three weeks and not become adapted?
A. Yes, altitude adaption is not caused by a limited stay daily in a low pressure chamber.
Q. Now, how can you tell when I become adapted? Give me a simple answer.
A That is very simple to determine. The first time I check either how long you can go on without oxygen at a certain altitude, how long you can stay at a certain altitude or how far you can ascend without oxygen, that is an ascent experiment. If I repeat the same experiment after three, four or six weeks, I can determine whether you can remain in for a longer time at the same altitude or at the same speed or whether you can go to a higher altitude without becoming sick. That test is very simple.
Q Now in a period of two months, Doctor, might I become adapted if I was used thirty times?
A I have already said, repeated ascents in the low pressure chamber cause a very slight improvement in the resistance to altitude, but nothing that aviation medicine calls altitude adaptation in the strictest sense.
Q Now, Doctor, the freezing experiments at Dachau; your first encounter with any activities concerning experimentation in the field of research concerning freezing or shock from exposure to cold was after having sat in at the meeting between Hippke and Rascher; was that the first time?
A Not after the meeting, but the discussion between Hippke and Rascher was the first time I heard anything about it, because I was called in to participate in this discussion.
Q On Page 11 of document book 3, this is document 343-PS. Page 12, I am sorry, this is document No. 283, that is the letter from Rascher to the Reichsfuehrer concerning the assignment of Jarisch, Holzloehner and Singer to work on the problem of freezing; do you have that letter, Doctor?
A I have the photostat of the document, yes.
Q Was Jarisch in the Luftwaffe?
A. This is Professor Jarisch, he had no office or position in the Luftwaffe.
Q Was Holzloehner in the Luftwaffe?
A Holzloehner was a Stabsarzt or Oberstabsarzt in the Luftwaffe, yes.
Q Was Singer in the Luftwaffe?
A I have learned here that Singer was a Luftwaffe pathologist in Munich. I believe in the research assignment list there was some research assignment given to Singer from which I have seen, he must have been an Oberstabsarzt during the war. I do not know him personally and I had nothing to do with him.
Q Rascher was in the Luftwaffe?
A Yes, Rascher was a Stabsarzt in the Luftwaffe.
Q Weltz was in the Luftwaffe?
A Yes, that has been established here.
Q Were the freezing experiments at Dachau Luftwaffe experiments or SS experiments?
AAccording to what I heard at the time from Rascher, I thought they were definitely Rascher's experiments, based on specific order and approval of Himmler.
Q Where did Hoelzloehner report on the experiments, or rather Rascher; where did he report about his work, did he report at the October meeting in Nurnberg?
A The experiments were reported only and exclusively to Himmler. Rascher had obtained permission from Himmler to speak at the lecture. The sea-watcr experiments were a top secret matter and he was to give only as much information as necessary.
Q That meeting in October in Nurnberg was a Luftwaffe meeting; was it not?
A Yes, it was a Luftwaffe meeting or a meeting on behalf of the medical inspectorate of the Luftwaffe.
Q Do you know where Jarisch is now?
A I assume that he is in Innsbruck.
Q Do you know where Holzloehner is now?
A No, I do not, I heard he was dead.
Q Did you know that he committed suicide?
A I heard that, yes.
Q Was the cause for his suicide his participation in these experiments?
A I don't know, I could not say.
Q This is a good breaking point, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:30 this afternoon.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours 27 May 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BECKER FREYSENG - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. HARDY:
Q Dr. Becker Freyseng, in June 1942, during the course of the conference between Professor Hippke and Dr. Rascher did the names Dr. Jarisch, Dr. Holzloehner and Dr. Singer ever appear or ever come into the conversation?
A I do not remember the name of Singer because he never played any part in air force research. However, the names Jarisch and Holzloehner were mentioned at least in my presence because both these names could be found on a list of those who had to lecture during the planned meeting about emergency sea matters. I never heard at a later date that Professor Singer in any way worked on the scientific cold questions.
Q Now let us refer again, doctor, to document No. 283, that is a letter from Rascher to the Reichsfuehrer. It is on page 12 of English document bock No. 3. This letter, as you know is dated 15 June 1942 and reads as follows:
A I may correct you, it is really June.
Q I said June, I am sorry:
"A few days ago I was ordered to a conference with the Inspector of the Luftwaffe Medical Service, General Oberstabsarzt Professor Dr. Hippke. When I told him you had not yet received the report concerning the experiments as a whole and you still had to give permission for the reporting of the results, he did not ask for any report. The Inspector was extraordinarily kind and asked me as liaison mam with the SS to express to you, esteemed Reichsfuehrer, his private thanks for the experiments."
Now is it your contention Dr. Becker Freyseng that this meeting here referred to by Rascher was the meeting between Rascher and Hippke at which you were present?
A. I would assume so, yes.
Q. Now the letter goes on to say, doctor:
"At the same time he (which refers to General Oberstabsarzt Professor Hippke) asked for permission to carry out the cold and water experiments in Dachau and asked that the following be engaged in these experiments," and therein we note three names, Jarisch, Holzloehner and Singer.
Now during the course of the conference did you hear or did the matter come up that it would be necessary to engage a pathologist to assist and collaborate with Rascher and Holzloehner or whomever was picked or chosen to work with Rascher?
A. No, a pathologist was not discussed in my presence.
Q. Well, now, as a medical man what would be the purpose for assigning a pathologist to this research detail?
A. The purpose for that may vary, because for experimental pathology a number of papers were written by me in collaboration with pathologists and I am therefore somewhat informed about this special form of pathology. I never heard that Professor Singer at any time concerned himself with cold questions. When I saw that document here for the first time I was very surprised. It says the name of Singer. At no time before had I seen that name in connection with cold or any other air force research work.
Q. What are the duties of a pathologist in German medicine?
A. The duties of the pathologist are extensive and varied. The main task of a pathologist is to search for the cause and the effect of the illness on the living organism. For instance, if a part of a bad tissue is being cut out during an operation and if the practicing physician wants to know whether there is cancer, this part is always sent to the pathologist. On the other hand, whenever any patient dies, an autopsy is very often being carried out in order to clearly find out the cause for the illness and the death.
I have already told you that modern pathology in particular performs a great number of experiments. For instance, animal experiments, and even after this letter it does not become apparent to me at all that Dr. Hippke at that time counted on death cases during these experiments just because he asked a pathologist to participate. It is quite possible that he mentioned this name of Singer to Rascher in order to get them into contact with one another since he knew perhaps, that Singer had particular information in that field but I know nothing about that personally.
Q. Then you exclude the possibility that Professor Hippke was fully aware of the fact that death did result from these experiments at Dachau and that it was necessary or would be necessary to have a pathologist on it so that he can perform an autopsy in order to determine the cause of death.
A. I cannot exclude that possibility because as a result of the files which I read and which were submitted during the trial of Milch regarding Professor Hippke, I can see Professor Hippke admitted that possibility which you just mentioned. However, I know that now. I did not know that at the time.
Q. Doctor, let us turn to document No. 286, which is Prosecution Exhibit 88, to be found on page 22 of the English. This is a research order on freezing to Holzloehner:
A. Yes, I have the document.
Q. Now we see your file notation, that is the number 55, and then arabic 2, Roman numeral II B, those are the file numbers of your office, is that right?
A. Since we are concerned with the year of 1942, this is the referat Anthony where I was working, that is correct.
Q. And at that time Anthony was referent and you were assistant referent?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. Then is it true that this letter originated from Anthony's office?
A. Yes, it come from the referat.
Q. I see. Well now I note in the first paragraph after the salutation there is the following language:
"The Inspectorate of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe has given order for research to the Stabsarzt Professor Dr. Holzloehner, reference above, dated 24 February 1942, for work on the following problem:
"'The effect of freezing on warm-blooded subjects.'" Now did this order for research to Professor Holzloehner initiate from your office?
A. I cannot tell you that from my own knowledge.
Dr. TIPPS: Mr. President, in order to avoid any misunderstanding I may comment on that document as follows:
It was quoted here: "The effect of freezing on warm blooded subjects." Subject, however, must be understood as meaning the human being in the common usage of the English language. Perhaps the Interpreter would be kind enough to confirm that warm blooded beings as it is stated in the German document book, in other words "Warmblueter" does not limit itself to the human beings but also extends to the animal. In other words, it means every being which has warm blood flowing in it's veins. I am making this remark now because the very same misunderstanding arose recently during direct examination and on that occasion the interpreter was kind enough to confirm that this translation was not correct. It should read, and I quote: "On warm blooded beings". Perhaps I may ask the interpreter whether he thinks this interpretation is more suitable.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the Interpreters give their opinion on the matter?
INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honor, the other day defense counsel asked for my opinion when I suggested that interpretation to him, it should be warm blooded beings, instead of warm blooded subjects.
Q I now continue, doctor. It is immaterial to Prosecution whether that is subject or whether it is being, I might add. But did this research order to Professor Dr. Holzloehner initiate from Anthony's office?
A This research assignment was handled by the referat Anthony because certainly becomes apparent from the number of that research assignment above there. In addition I already mentioned repeatedly that aviation medical assignments were necessarily handled in the referat for aviation medicine. Here we were clearly with such a problem.
Q Now, we will note the next paragraph, doctor, which reads as follows: "At the proposal of Stabarzt Dr. Rascher appropriate examinations were made of human beings, and in agreement with the Reichsfuehrer SS suitable facilities were used for the examinations."
It continues on: "In order to carry out these examinations a research group "Hardships at Sea" was set up, consisting of Profess Dr. Holzloehner as leader and Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher and Dr. Finke."
Now, might I gather from reading this document that the referat for aviation medicine was fully aware of the activities in which Rascher, Finke, and Holzloehner were engaged in at Dachau or might I assume that their work was merely working on actual cases of persons rescued from the sea?
A I didn't quite understand your question. Are you asking me now about the meaning of the research group "Distress at Sea"?
Q Yes.
A I cannot clearly answer your question from my own knowledge because I don't know whether at this time, in the summer of 1942, Professors Holzloehner, Rascher and Finke were at the channel coast and were working on "distress at sea" questions. I know that a number of other researchers were sent to the channel by Anthony and Hippke in order to gain experience. I do not know whether Holzloehner, Finke and Rascher were among them.
Q Well, then I submit to you, doctor, this possibility. Assume for the moment this research group of Holzloehner, Finke, and Rascher, as outlined in this document, were working as a research group on the sea shore, on the coast, with actual cases of persons rescued from sea. In as much as the document is signed by Anthony would you assume that Anthony was aware of the work being performed by Holzloehner, Finke, and Rascher?
A Let me say at first that this letter was not signed by Anthony. Anthony only certified the true copy.
Q I realize that, doctor. He signed the true copy. He must have read it to sign it. Do you think that he had knowledge of those activities?
A I would assume so because I have made a little file notice about the conversation between Hippke and Rascher which I handed to Anthony when he came back from his vacation. He then continued to deal with this matter.
Q Then on the face of this document it indicates to us that it originated from Anthony's office and this further that out - we see Anthony's signature appearing on the document. Now, isn't it true that Anthony's office ordered Professor Holzloehner to work on this particular subject and, in fact, set up this research group of Holzloehner, Rascher, and Finke?
A I am sure that the referat was not in a position to do that. Only Hippke was in a position to issue such an order.
Q But, doctor, it has the initials and the code, file numbers, of Anthony's office on the order. What are they doing there? Hippke doesn't write out an order and put down the file numbers of BeckerFreyseng's office. He puts down his own file numbers. It states here in the first paragraph that "The Inspectorate gave an order for research to Professor Holzloehner, reference above", and the reference that appears above is reference No. 1 and it has #55 there as the file numbers of Anthony's section, isn't that true?
A No, that is not true.
Q I suppose that you are going to tell me now reference No. 2 is the reference referred to in that paragraph. That is the only way that you can slip out, doctor.
A No, no, no. I think in my direct examination and also yesterday I discussed the file notices in great detail. I may repeat once more. The reference No. 55 and IIb show that this assignment was worked upon in the referat for Aviation Medicine and I repeatedly stated that all the original research assignments as far as they were not mere continuations had to be signed by the Medical Inspectorate or the Chief of the Medical Services.
Q Well now this report that is mentioned here in this document is undoubtedly the report which Holzloehner was to deliver at the October meeting. Is that a correct assumption on my part, doctor?
A What passage of the document are you referring to?
Q I am referring to the sixth paragraph which reads as follows:
"The research documents and an extensive report will be presented to the Reichsfuehrer-SS by Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher. It is requested that the originals or copies of the report and of the documents be put at the disposal of the Inspectorate of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe.
"It is intended to make the results, in the form of an extract, accessible to experts at a conference which will take place in Nurnberg on 26 and 27 October 1942. The daily schedule of the conference is enclosed."
Now, then, as a result of this order from Hippke Holzloehner, Rascher, and Finke are to give a report that is a concise report at the Nurnberg Freezing Conference in October, isn't that the gist of this document?
A Were you talking about an oral report? Or a brief report? Yes, in this letter by the Reichsfuehrer-SS's permission is asked that the results of the experiments be published at Nurnberg.
Q I see. Well, now we will proceed to the report which was published at Nurnberg. This is Document NO-401, I believe.