At present, these prisoners are separated according to sex and each group is accommodated in a hospital building of the Auschwitz concentration camp and are in quarantine.
"For further processing of the selected persons an immediate transfer to the Natzweiler concentration camp is now imperative, which must be accelerated in view of the danger of infectious diseases in Auschwitz. Enclosed is a list containing the names of the selected persons.
"It is requested that the necessary directives be issued.
"Since with the transfer of the prisoners to Natzweiler the danger of spreading diseases exists, it is requested that an immediate shipment of disease-free and clean prisoners' clothing for 80 men and 30 women be ordered sent from Natzweiler to Auschwitz.
"At the same time one must provide for the accommodation of the 30 women in the Natzweiler concentration camp for a short period."
Signed Sievers, SS-Standartenfuehrer; carbon copies to SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Beger, SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Hirt and SS-Qbersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Brandt, and this copy obviously was found in the files of the Reichsfuehrer-SS and bears the stamp of the Personal Staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS and therefore was the copy sent to the Defendant Rudolf Brandt.
Here again we can see very clearly that the Defendant Sievers played a very active part in the collection of the Jewish skeletons and was anything but a mailbox, as he will have you believe.
Before passing on to the next document, I would like to clear up a problem in connection with Prosecution Exhibit 175 which was the first document to go in out of this book; that is, Document NO-085. Actually the exhibit contains only the covering letter from Sievers to Rudolf Brandt plus that part of the report dealing with the Jewish skeleton collection. The exhibit which is going into evidence does not contain that part of Professor Dr. Hirt's report dealing with the new microscope, and accordingly my remarks with respect to that portion of the report of Hirt should be disregarded in the record at this time. It may be that we will put in this additional portion of the report which was in two parts at a later state of the trial.
I come now to Document NO-088 which will be Prosecution Exhibit 182, and this is a teletype from Sievers to the Defendant Rudolf Brandt and it is dated 5 September 1944 and if your Honors will recall, the invasion of the continent by the Allies had already taken place and Strasbourg itself was being endangered. Obviously the collection of the Jewish persons taken to Natzweiler had been accomplished and their bodies had been delivered to Strasbourg where they had been kept, where they had been preserved, and we now find in this teletype that these men who were participating in this diabolical crime were now becoming worried lest evidence of their crime be found at Strasbourg. This teletype contains some stenographic notes at the top and as best they could be deciphered, read as follows:
"Was dissolved entirely in our place by mistake according to former order. In case nothing has happened, solution for the time being until official proposal for execution..." a bit garbled.
The body of the teletype reads as follows:
"Subject: Collection of Jewish Skeleton.
"In conformity with the proposal of 9 February 1942 and with the consent of 23 February 1942, SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Professor Hirt planned the hitherto missing collection of skeletons. Due to the extent of the scientific work connected herewith, the preparation of the skeletons is not yet concluded. Hirt asks with respect to the time needed for 80 specimens, and in case the endangering of Strassbourg has to be reckoned with, how to proceed with the collection situated in the dissecting room of the anatomical institute. He is able to carry out the maceration and thus render them irrecognizable. Then, however, part of the entire work would have been partly done in vain, and it would be a great scientific loss for this unique collection, because ..." there is a word here I can't make out ..." casts could not be made afterwards. The skeleton collection as such is not conspicuous. Viscera could be declared as remnants of corpses, apparently left in the anatomical institute by the French, and ordered to be cremated. Decision on the following proposals is requested: 1) collection can be preserved;
2) collection is to be partly dissolved; 3) entire collection is to be dissolved." Signed Sievers, SS-Standartenfuehrer He see here that their plans changed somewhat from the original proposal by Hirt which was for a collection of skulls.
We now see that they were desirous of making a collection of skeletons, and also in connection with that, to take plaster casts of the bodies of the persons before the flesh was removed, and it is apparent from this letter that defleshing, if we may call it that, had not been completed.
We pass on to Document NO-091 which is Prosecution Exhibit 183. This is a note signed by a man named Berg, an SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer. It is dated 15 October 1944, in other words a little more than thirty days following the request of Sievers for information as to what was to be done with the collection. This not reads:
THE PRESIDENT: What date did you read for that document, counsel?
Mr. McHANEY: This is on page 18 of your document book.
THE PRESIDENT: I know, but what date did you read in the beginning of the document? -705 MR. MCHANEY: This date is 15 October 1944. This exhibit consists of two notes. The one on the top is 15 October 1944. It says:"On 12 October 1944 I talked to SS-Standartenfuehrer Sievers on the Telephone and asked him whether the skeleton collection at Strassburg had already been completely broken up in accordance with instructions given by SSStandartenfuehrer Baumert, SS-Standartenfuehrer Sievers could not tell me anything about that, since he had not yet received any detailed news from Professor Hirt.
I told him that, if the dissolution had not yet taken place, some part of the collection should still be preserved. It had to be certain however, that the complete dissolution could be accomplished promptly if Strassbourg should be endangered because of the military situation. SS-Standartenfuerer Sievers promised to have the appropriate investigations made and to report about them." Signed, Berg.
And as part of the same document and exhibit is a second note signed by Berg which is dated 26 October 1944 and it says:
"During his presence at the Field Command Post on 21 October 1944, SSStandartenfuehrer Sievers informed me that the dissolution of the collection in Strassburg had already been completed in compliance with the orders given formerly. Considering the whole situation he thinks that this procedure was the best one." Signed, Berg, with the handwritten initials Br. at the bottom, which are those of the Defendant Rudolf Brandt. I am sure that the defendant Sievers certainly does wish that the collection had in fact been completely destroyed, but as we shall see later this very afternoon, that in ace was not accomplished.
I would now like to refer back and read a few excerpts from the Sievers diary which trows a little further light on this particular subject. The firs reference is in Document NO-538 which went in as Prosecution Exhibit 122, and I would like to call the Court's attention to several excerpts which appear on pages 2 and 5. Thus he makes a note on 10 February 1943.
Thus he makes a note of 10 February, 1943, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Beger and this Court and the Tribunal will recall Dr. Beger was the Assistant in the Ahnenerbe Institute who was actually doing the anthropological measurements in Auschwitz and Natzweiler. This note says: SS Hauptsturmfuehrer - Dr. Beger: Anthropological work at Auschwitz made questionable due to military draft. And on page 5 we find a note made on 21 May, 1943: SS Hauptsturmfuehrer, Dr. Beger, (by telephone) regarding survey of anthropological examinations at Auschwitz, and another note: SS Hauptsturmfuehrer, Dr. Hirt (by telephone Execution of examinations at Auschwitz.
Again on the 22nd of May, 1943, Sievers enters in his diary a note: SS Hauptsturmfuehrer. Dr. Beger (by telephone) concerning examinations at Auschwitz. Again on the 16th of June, 1943: SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Beger: Report on anthropological survey at Auschwitz. On the 23rd of June, 1943: SS Hauptsturmfuehrer: Dr. Hirt, Strassburg (by telephone) Re adaptation of the Auschwitz conclusions and executions of the skull x-rays at Natzweiler.
That was from the Sievers diary for the first half of 1943. Unfortunately, we do not have that portion covering the last half of 1943, but we do have the diary for the full year of 1944, and this is document 3546-PS, which was introduced as Prosecution Exhibit 123, and on page 3 of this diary we find on the 2nd of February, 1944, note No. 9, which covers the discussion with Hauptsturmfuehrer Hirt, Mr. Sievers makes the following entry: "Casts of examined race types. SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Beger is to arrange for the sending of the required amount of negocoll and positive-substance so that (Praeparator) Bong can carry out the casting himself and Gabel does not have to come. Substance required for eighty persons. In the event the substance is not available, shall the casting be done with gypsum?" That note makes very clear that Professor Hirt in a conference with defendant Sievers was making arrangements so that the plaster casts of the bodies of these victims could be made before the bodies were reduced to skeleton form, and that they were here talking about the amount of material required, and they mentioned the name of Bong and the Tribunal will hear some mention made of Bong in the testimony of a witness who will be brought to the stand shortly.
Turning to page 6 of the Sievers Diary for 1944, we find that on the 4th of April, 1944, a note appears: SS Uschaf. Dr. Beger - Advised discussion with Professor Abel in regard to work by Dr. Trojan in prisoner-of war camps on Mongols. Beger requests that his unit be advised of his assignment since clarity does not exist on this subject, and that a request be made for his being put on the payroll as Sonder fuehrer - that is a Special Leader, and this note indicates perhaps that he did anthropological studies going on in another sphere in prisoner-of-war camps on Mongols.
I think those are the only excerpts from the diary dealing with the skeleton collection, and I would at this time like to request that the witness Henri Henripierre be called to the stand to testify.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshall will call the witness, Henri Henripierre: HENRIHENRIPIERRE; a witness took the stand and testified as follows:
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. What is your name?
A. Henri Henripierre.
Q. Will you repeat this oath after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure the truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Witness
A. Yes
Q. Your name is Henri Henripierre?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You are a citizen of France?
A. Yes, I am a French citizen.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. I was born in Lievres an the 23rd of August 1905.
Q. What was the year in which your were born again, please?
A. 1905.
Q. What is your present address? That is your home address?
A. My present address is 14 Rue De lail, Strassbourg.
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal just a bit about your personal history, that you have done and been doing up to the time you came to be a Clerk in the Anatomical Institute at Strassbourg?
A. I should first of all to make it clear that I did not come here with any feelings of hatred or vengeance. I came here solely owing to a sentiment of having to do my duty and out of justice. I owe this to the 86 doctor victims whom we received in the month of August, 1943, I would, therefore, say before having to proceed with the preservation of the 86 victims that I made at least 250 preservations of Russian and Polish prisoners who died under the ill treatment at Untzig. That is enough to show you that I know how to appreciate the difference between a violent death and a natural death.
4. Witness, lot's find out just a little bit about you before you tell the Court about what happened at the Anatomical Institute in Strassbourg under Dr. Hirt. Now, were you ever arrested by the Germans?
A. I was arrested by the Germans in Paris.
Q. In Paris?
A. I was arrested by the Germans in Paris and was taken to the concentration camp at Compiegne, and it was after the intervention of Dr. Chezwolle, my principal officer, that I was transferred to the concentration camp at Compiegne, and before being liverated from that camp I passed before a Commission of High SS Officers, who told me that I would have to return to my country if I wished to have my relatives spared, and it was on the 6th of June, 1942, which was the date I would have to leave Paris. It was as a result of that I was at Strassbourg.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the witness speak more slowly?
WITNESS: It was when I arrived there I tried to find employment at the hospital which might make use of my knowledge as a chemist's assistant at the chemist shop and there was no further employment there, and at the hospital they telephoned to Dr. Hirt and asked him if he still required an employee and he answered "yes" and at that moment.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is not receiving the translation.
WITNESS: At that moment I was taken on in Professor Hirt's Department, and naturally it was a principal anatomist who taught me to prepare bodies for preservation.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Witness, just a minute. When was that when you took this job at Strassbourg under Dr. Hirt, what was the date?
A. The date of my entrance was around about the 20th of June, 1942.
Q. All right, who was your immediate superior on this job that you took?
A. My immediate chief was under Professor Hirt, then the principal preparator who taught me how to prepare bodies for preservation.
Q. And who was that?
A. He was a German subject, Mr. Otto Bong, who came with the Professor to Strassbourg.
Q. And how do you spell that name Bong?
A. Bong.
Q. All right, now let's go back just a minute. You stated you were arrested in 1942 in Paris by the Gestapo?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Why were you arrested?
A. I do not know yet.
Q. They did not tell you why you were arrested?
A. They did not tell me why, no sir.
Q. And then you wont to the concentration camp at Compiegne?
A. Yes, when I left the concentration camp at Compiegne I remained a month in Paris and on the 6th of June 1 had to leave.
Q. Now you went to Strassbourg then on the 6th of June, 1942?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And you took this job in Hirt's institution?
A. On the 20th of June I took the job.
Q. And your task there was the conservation of corpses under the supervision
A. My employment was to proceed with the preservation of corpses, and to prepare for their lectures to students in the auditorium and I also looked after the central heating and I also had to go with the car that belonged to the section to fetch the corpses of the victims.
Q. And I believe you stated that you had received about 250 to 300 corpseof Russian prisoners-of-war, is that right?
A. Russians and Poles, yes sir.
Q. How do you know were prisoners -of-war?
A. Because every corpse was accompanied by a death certificate and for the 86 victims which we received in August there were not papers at all.
Q. Now, we will come to the eighty-six victims in just a moment; let's find out a little bit more about your job before then.
A. My employment was principally to preserve the corpses, to fetch these corpses, and also to prepare for the lectures which were given to the students.
Q. All right. Now, did there come a time in the middle of 1943 when you received some other corpses? I think you have been trying to tell us about that. Will you now relate the circumstances of that?
A. Which circumstances do you mean, sir?
Q. You had mentioned the receipt of some eighty or eighty-six corpses. Will you tell us about that; when it happened, what you saw, and what you did?
In the month of July, 1943, Professor Hirt received a visit from the senior officer of the SS. I thought that ho was a senior officer because he came in his own car, accompanied by his own driver. Now, to have a driver and a car, you would need to be a senior officer.
This officer came three times in the month of July. Professor Hirt took him and showed him the cellars of the laboratory. A few days later, Mr. Bong told me that he would have to prepare the tanks to receive a hundred and twenty corpses. We prepared the tanks. In these tanks there were synthetic spirits of 55 degrees.
The first convoy which we received was a convoy of thirty women. It was supposed to arrive at five o'clock in the morning, but it only arrived at seven. After having interrogated the driver about the delay, the driver gave answer, "They gave us a lot of trouble." These thirty corpses of women were unloaded by the driver and two assistants, also helped by Mr. Bong and myself.
The preservation of those corpses started straight away. The corpses arrived when they were still warm. The eyes were wide open and brilliant; they seemed congested and red, and they were popping out of the orbits. There were traces of blood at the nose and at the mouth, and there was evidence of focal matter coming out. There was no rigor mortis apparent. At that moment I judged for myself that it was a case of victims who, in my opinion, had been poisoned or asphyxiated, because in the case of no victim of any previous preservation were there presented the symptoms and signs that these victims showed when they arrived.
That is why I made a note of the serial numbers that the women had tattooed on their loft forearm. I made a note of them on a piece of paper, and I kept them in secret in my house. The serial numbers consisted of five digits.
A few days later we received a second convoy of thirty men. These arrived exactly in the same state as the first, that is, still warm, with wide open eyes, congested, eyes brilliant, bleeding at the mouth and bleeding at the nose, and also losing their fecal matter.
The preservation of these thirty men was also proceeded with immediately, with one slight difference. The left testicle in each case was removed, which was sent to the Laboratory for Anatomy Number 2. That was a Laboratory run by Professor Hirt.
Some time later, thereupon, we received a third and last convoy, namely, of twenty-six men. They also arrived in the same state as the two previous ones.
I should like to make it clear once more--and I say this knowing it to be true--after the first convoy of women's bodies that we received, Professor Hirt, having met me at the door of an Anatomical Department, told mo literally "Peter, if you don't hold your mouth, you won't get out of this." That is word for word what Professor Hirt told me.
Another peculiarity. Professor Hirt, some time before he received those bodies, said, in the basement of an Anatomical Department, talking to Mr. Bong, "They are going to drop like flies."
All this was a sign for me that it was literally a case of murder, I therefore was right in believing that those eighty-six victims which we had received had not died a natural death.
Q. Witness, why do you assume that?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. Why do you assume that these people were murdered? Did you get any death certificates with them, for example, with the bodies?
A. What I mean is that having made the preservation of the first lots of corpses from Mutzig Camp, there was always a sheet with each body, whereas in the case of these eighty-six victims,, there were no sheets at all; besides which; you should know as well as I that a person who dies a natural death does not leave a corpse with shiny, glistening eyes like those that I had seen nor in a state of complete congestion; nor with blood flowing out of eyes and mouth and nose.
Also, these bodies were still warm. Therefore; it cannot be a case of natural death, so far as I can judge.
Q. I see. Now, I am not sure that you told the Tribunal when the first shipment of bodies was received. Will you tell us that now, please?
A. The first lot of thirty women's corpses was received around about the 10th of August. I cannot state the date exactly, but what I do remember precisely is that it was at the beginning of August, the 10th of August, I believe.
Q. And you saw those bodies with your own eyes when they were delivered?
A. I was present myself; I myself helped to unload them, and therefore I cannot be mistaken.
Q. And then you received a second shipment of thirty bodies two weeks later?
A. Yes, I received a second lot of thirty bodies, and a third lot of twenty-six bodies.
Q. And what did you do with these bodies after you had received them?
A. Once they were preserved, the corpses wore placed in the tanks, about fifteen to each tank. These bodies were all superb. The bodies of prisoners which I had previously seen were all emaciated, whereas these eighty-six corpses that I am talking of were magnificent; finely muscled, and did not show any signs of neglect. The only thing that was remarkable was that there were a certain number of peculiar wrinkles in the back.
Q. Do you know, witness, whether or not the people who were killed and delivered to you were Jews?
A. At the time that I saw those bodies I did not know whether they were Jews or not. I merely questioned Mr. Bong and I asked him what he thought those people were. It was Mr. Bong who said, "Das sind alies Juden," They
Q. Now, witness, will you tell the Tribunal just what happened to these bodies after they had been delivered to you and had been stored in the basement or in the cellar?
A. Once the bodies had been preserved, they were put into the tanks. They remained in the tanks an entire year without anybody touching them. In the month of September, 1944, the Allies were advancing and therefore, at that time, Professor Hirt ordered Mr. Bong and Mr. Meier, the laboratory assistant to cut up these eighty-six bodies and to have than cremated in the Strassbourg City Crematorium. The work having been accomplished by Mr. Bong and Mr. Meier in the actual room where these tanks were, I asked Mr. Bong the following morning if he had cut up all of the bodies. He replied, "We couldn't cut them all up, it was far too much work. We left some of the bodies at the bottom of the tanks." I then asked Bong, "Were all the corpses burned with their gold tooth?" At that moment Bong replied, "The gold teeth that were already found on the Jews were handed over to Professor Hirt by Mr. Meier."
The remaining corpses that were not put into coffins--because there weren't any coffins left--were tossed back into the tanks with the remainder of the others, so as to make people who would see them believe that they were the remains of anatomical defections.
Q. Were you in Strassbourg when it was captured by the Allies?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. I say, did you remain in Strassbourg, and were you there when it was captured by the Allies in 1944?
A. When Strassbourg was liberated by the Allies I was still in that Anatomical Department. It is I who should have conveyed, in the car belonging to the Department, Mr. and Mrs. Bong, and as Secretary of that Department I should also have evacuated them to the other bank of the Rhine. However, I was not anxious to do that.
The day before the Allies arrived they were at that moment at Sauvergne. I knew it from the Allied wires. Therefore, the day before, I went around to the garage and I sabotaged the car so it would not be able to run. The next morning the Allies arrived, and of course when we wanted to use the car we couldn't. I considered it my duty to do that.
Q. Now, these bodies which you say were not successfully dissected and burned, were they found in the Institute at Strassbourg University?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether pictures were taken of those bodies?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. Do you know whether pictures were taken of these bodies?
A. Yes, photographs were taken of those bodies in several instances, and I know it well because I had to help. I emptied the tanks each time there were photographs so as to find those bodies that had not been dissected at the bottom. The corpses and the numbers which were on their arms corresponded exactly to the numbers that I had noted myself. Those corpses were subjected to post mortem examination by Professor Simona in my presence. I assisted him.
Q. All right. Now, witness, I want to have handed to you a booklet of pictures. And this, if the Tribunal please, is document NO-483.
A. I did not hear very well.
Q. I say that I am going to have handed to you a book of pictures, and I want you to tell the Tribunal if these are pictures of the corpses which were left in Strassbourg.
A. Yes, certainly, the photographs were taken at Strassbourg. Professor Simona made up an album with all the photographs, as well Commissar Commandant Jardin.
Q. Will you look at this book of pictures, which is document number NO-483, and will you tell the Tribunal if these are pictures of the corpses which were delivered to the Institute at the Strassbourg University in August of 1943?
A. Yes, sir.
(Documents were submitted to the witness.)
A. (sontinuing) Yes, that is correct. Yes, very exact. I can therefore say that these photographs are authentically true. I was present myself when these photographs were taken. They are exact. It is true. There is no doubt whatever about it.
Q. Now, then, witness, I will ask that you be shown another booklet of pictures. This is Document Number NO-807 and I will ask you to tell the Tribunal if that booklet, that document, contains pictures of these corpses at the Institute at Strasbourg University?
A. (Witness commenting as he looks at the pictures): All these corpses were in the Anatomical Department of Strasbourg. I remember that corpse, for instance, I remember the face. I laid out the bodies myself so that the photographs could be taken. I remember the remains of legs and arms were laying in that tank--arms on which traces of serial numbers remained had been cut off so that serial numbers could be removed. Yes, this is exact; this is correct. This one here is a body on which we made a post mortem. Here are photographs which were taken during the post mortem. For instance, this one is a photograph that I described.
Q. I think that will be sufficient, witness. I take it that you have been interrogated many times about this incident at Strasbourg, is that correct?
A. Yes sir.
MR. McHANEY: If Your Honor please, I do not think I have any further questions to direct to the witness. I have had him identify these two books of pictures which, unfortunately, we have not duplicated in your document Book. However, I have not offered them at this time as Exhibits because we also intend to offer them under certifications made by the French War Crimes Commission which appear upon these documents and which, irrespective of the identification by this witness, would make them admissible under Ordinance No. 7.
JUDGE SEBRING: Do you intend to duplicate them Mr. McHaney?
MR. McHANEY: We are trying to duplicate them now. There was just a delay in it. I would like to go ahead, though, and offer them as exhibits, as soon a s this witness has been excused, based first upon his identification and secondly upon the certification attached to each.
JUDGE SEBRING: With the proviso that they will be duplicated.
MR. McHANEY: I would like, as soon as they are offered, to have them passed up to the Tribunal and I should think also that defense counsel for Sievers and Rudolf Brandt should be permitted to see them and offer any objection if they wish.
JUDGE SEBRING: That can't be done unless they are duplicated.
MR. McHANEY: Yes, indeed, they should be.
JUDGE SEBRING: Defense Counsel will be offered the opportunity to object to these exhibits if they desire.
MR. McHANEY: If there is no cross examination, we can proceed.
JUDGE SEBRING: I did not know that you had rested.
MR. McHANEY: Yes, Sir.
JUDGE SEBRING: Any cross examination of this witness by defense counsel?
DR. WEISGERBER (Counsel for the Defendant Sievers): I am also speaking in the name of my colleague, Dr. Kaufmann. I should like to have the opportunity to view the album which has just been submitted and it is only after that that I can state whether cross examination will be necessary or not.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for the Prosecution will exhibit these albums to the defense counsel. Counsel, do you desire a few moments to examine these exhibits? The Tribunal will take a short recess if you desire some time to look them over.
DR. WEISGERBER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess for 10 minutes.
(A recess was taken).
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Is the Defense Counsel ready to proceed with the crossexamination?
DR. WEISGERBER: Mr. President, the defense counsel for Sievers and Brandt do not intend to cross examine the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any cross examination of the witness to be made by any other defense counsel?
DR. FRITZ: (Counsel for the defendant Dr. Rose.) Mr. President, I should like to put four questions to the witness, which have nothing to do with the type of questions which we are dealing with now, but which may be important for the defendant Dr. Rose.
THE PRESIDENT: The counsel will state the questions so that the Tribunal may rule on their probative value and whether they should be admitted at this time.
DR. FRITZ: Mr. President, I like to point out that I want to put a question to the witness because the witness happens to be here at the moment.
THE PRESIDENT: The counsel will state what the questions are.
DR. FRITZ: The first question is whether the witness can testify whether the Hygienic Institute at Strassbourg was damaged during an air raid, during which a number of members of this institute lost their lives.
THE PRESIDENT: The counsel will state the other questions, which he desires to ask.
DR. FRITZ: In the event that the witness cannot recall the date of the air raid, I should have pointed out to him that we are concerned with the same air-raid during which the wife and the son of Professor Hirt were killed in their Strassbourg flat.
A further question would be whether the witness knows that after this attack if work could be continued in the Hygienic Institute and whether the work actually was continued.
My next question would be to ask the witness whether he knows that after this air attack the valuable times were removed from this Institute, because of air raid precautionary reasons.
Mr. President, The Anatomical and Hygienic Institutes are very close to one another in Strassbourg and it is quite possible that the witness will be able to answer these questions.
THE PRESIDENT: It appears to the Tribunal that these questions might be pertinent if propounded by counsel for Defendants Sievers and Brandt, but the pertinency regarding Defendant Rose is not apparant.
Did counsel for the appellant understand the statement by the tribunal:
DR. FRITZ: No. Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: I will restate it. It occurs to the Tribunal that these questions might well be pertinent if propounded for Defendants Sievers and Brandt, but the Tribunal does not understand the pertinency of these questions on behalf of the Defendant Rose.
MR. FRITZ: Mr. President, I don't think that the defense counsel for Sievers has any interest in these questions. The questions are in connection with the work of Prof. Hagen in Strassbourg. We are concerned with hyperthesis experiments.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal fails to understand the connection and interest of Defendant Rose in those questions.
MR. MCHANEY: May it please the Tribunal, we have not yet come to the presentations of the case with which the Defendant Rose is primarily concerned, that deals mostly with the experiments relating to typhus. Certain of those experiments, as charged in the indictment, were carried out by Prof. Hagen who was the consulting physician of the Typhus experiments and as such, so the prosecution says, was a subordinate of the Defendant Rose. Hagen, it is alleged, worked in the Strassbourg University in the Hygienic Institute of the Strassbourg University and carried out his alleged criminal experiments in the Natzweiler concentration camp. We are here concerned with a witness, who was concerned with a part of the experiments with which we are concerned and he was working with both the Anatomical and Hygienic Institute of the Strassbourg University. The questions asked for the Defendant Rose are to bring certain information which might be of interest as to the activities of the Hygienic Institute. The prosecution does not raise any serious objections to the asking of those questions, except to point out that it is beyond the scope of the direct examination and he is thereby making this witness his own witness and he will be so bound be the answers given in response to these questions.
JUSTICE SEBRING: That is certainly true, Mr. McHaney. Will this witness, who is now available on the stand be available at a subsequent date in this Tribunal so that counsel can call him as a witness?
MR. MCHANEY: The witness will not be called by the prosecution again at any time. He was called merely for the purpose of questioning him on the Strassbourg questions. We will send him back to Strassbourg and we will not call him again.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand that you do not have any objections to the counsel for Dr. Rose questioning him as stated, so it will appear in the transcript of the proceedings that he is being called as a witness for the Defendant Rose. With that understanding, the Counsel for Defendant Rose may call the witness as a witness for the defense. The record will show that the witness is testifying for Defendant Rose.
DR. FRITZ: (Counsel for Dr. Rose). Witness, did you understand the questions as I put them before?
THE WITNESS: No.
DR. FRITZ: I shall repeat the questions.
BY DR. FRITZ:
Q Can you give me the date when the Hygienic Institute of the University in Strassbourg was damaged by an air raid, during which a number of members of this institute lost their lives?
A Must I answer now in French or in German?
Q Either.
A At the Anatomical Institute during the bombardments, there were no victims whatsoever. There were two or three victims at the Pharmacological Institute, which was situated behind the Anatomical Institute. Mr. and Mrs. Hirt were killed as was laboratory assistant, whose name I do not know. Apart from that there was no other case of bombardment of the hospital.
Q Witness, I was speaking about the Hygienic Institute.
A In the matter of the Hygienic Institute, I cannot answer because I don't know anything definite. I was working in the Anatomical Institute and we were not allowed to communicate.
I cannot answer that question as I am not properly informed.
Q Witness you state that Strassbourg was hardly bombed. It is possible that you remember when this air-raid took place and you could remember the date, just when the Hygienic Institute was damaged; what year and what date?
A I am not a very good head for exact dates. I know that it was bombed, but when it was exactly I cannot say.
Q In that case, I have, no further questions to ask the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does counsel desire to ask any questions of this witness in the morning? if not, the witness may be excused.
We will recess until 9:30 in the morning.
(ADJOURNMENT.)