A Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, Reichsfuehrer SS Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff, Dr. Grawitz, Dr. Barnsdorf, and Adjutant Schnitzler.
Q He was from Munich, Schnitzler?
A Yes.
Q Was Sievers in the experimental station often?
A I don't remember that Sievers was present during the experiments at the experimental station.
Q You mean you do not recall that on any occasion Sievers visited the experimental station while the high altitude experiments were going on?
A I know that Sievers was there to visit the block at the time when the station was first planned and the chambers arrived; but I cannot tell you now whether at that time the experiments were already being conducted.
Q Do you recall when it was that Rascher became the head of a department in the "Ahnenerbe"?
A That the experimental station was subordinated to the "Ahnenerbe" started, as far as I know, at the time of the beginning of the freezing experiments. Whether that had already happened at an earlier date or not I don't know.
Q And you became a civilian employee of the "Ahnenerbe" in September, 19 is that right?
A Yes.
Q Now, Witness, did you ever hear the name of Erhardt Milch mentioned in connection with these high altitude experiments?
A Yes.
Q On what occasion?
A I had the impression that Romberg tried intentionally to withdraw from these experiments. He eas ill on numerous occasions; and he had often left on trips. Of course, the negative thing in that connection was that Rascher had to work all the more.
I spoke to Romberg himself and I asked him how long the low pressures should remain; and he said that Milch was going to use them, and he would try to do everything to send them away as quickly as possible. That happened approximately the middle or the end of May. I remember that because this meant the time for me to try to make this chamber harmless.
I used some glass files and started filing on the high altitude appara During the next experiment it smashed to bits. Romberg managed to get some substitute parts within fourteen days so that the chamber was still being us for about another three weeks in spite of that.
Q Now. Witness, if I understand you correctly, you have stated that you got the impression that maybe Romberg wanted to withdraw from these experiments and that upon asking you were told that the chamber would remain in Dachau three more weeks and that you then attempted to sabotage the low pressure chamber. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And did you think that if you succeeded in sabotaging the chamber that Romberg would use that is an excuse to discontinue the experiments?
A I hoped for it, naturally; and I hoped that this series of experiments would be interrupted; and I didn't think that he would get hold pf spare parts as quickly as he did.
A Then I take it that Romberg disappointed you in not taking that opportunity to discontinue the experiments? Is that right?
A Yes.
Q Where did he go to get the spare parts?
A He went to Berlin.
Q How long did it take him before the chamber was again in order?
AAs far as I know, it took fourteen days to three weeks. That was the time that Romberg was away.
Q When did this occur?
AAt the end of May.
Q Now, I understand you to say that the experiments continued after the chamber had been fixed again?
A Yes.
Q How much longer did they last?
A I'm sure it lasted another three weeks.
Q Were experimental subjects killed during the last three weeks?
A Yes. Rascher killed fire persons on the last day.
Q Now, did the defendant Romberg witness any of these deaths that occurred during the last three or four weeks?
A I don't remember that exactly.
Q Well, now, Witness, if Romberg had gone to such extremes to get this low pressure chamber repaired and it was repaired, it seems to me that he would have stayed around and observed the experiments for the last few weeks. Didn't he do that?
A Romberg suffered from a gall-bladder disease and was very often away from the experimental station; and it is quite possible that he wasn't present at that time.
Q You have stated, as I understand it, that Romberg witnessed at least five deaths. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Was he informed about the other deaths that occurred?
AAs to how far Dr. Rascher informed Romberg regarding the number of the death cases, I don't know.
Q Well, didn't Romberg ever ask you? Wasn't he interested in knowing what went on while he happened to be away?
A I cannot remember Romberg's having asked me personally what Rascher had done in the meantime. It really is the case that Rascher was a Stabs Physician of the Luftwaffe; and I was, after all, only an inmate.
Q Can you remember only five cases of death which Romberg observed?
A Yes.
Q Now, let's go back to sabotaging the pressure chamber. How long before that had deaths occurred? Do you recall?
A From the beginning of March up to the transporting away of these chambers, it varied. Romberg made a series of experiments during the day and mostly left at approximately 6:00 o'clock in the evening. Then Rascher continued to work by himself. So there were cases of deaths nearly every day. What I want to say is that because of the fact that these death experiments were only carried through by Rascher during the evening, it can be explained that Romberg wasn't present.
Q But you have stated that Romberg has witnessed five deaths, so it's not true that all the death experiments were carried out during the night, is it?
A No, certainly not.
Q Well, that was the impression I got from your answer just a moment that all the death experiments occurred at night. That's not true, is it?
A No. -625
Q. All right, now, let's explain to the Tribunal just how you managed to sabotage the low-pressure chamber. What did you do to ist?
A. The high-altitude measuring apparatus was built into a separate chamber. There's a glass tube there which is connected with a glass bottle The mercuru inside this tube rises up, depending upon the amount of pressure applied and what I thought was the mercury would rise and the glass would not be able to stand the pressure and would therefore have to burst and in that manner one evening I used a glass file and started to file the back wall of this case. Just as I expected at the next experiment the entire apparatus smashed to bits. The thing that surprised me, however, was that not only the glass guage burst but also the entire bottle where the mercury was had burst too. I can only explain it that the mercury caused the other part of the glass to burst too.
Q. Now, how were you able to file this glass? Wasn't it quite hard?
A. As I stated before, I used a glass file. I used ten glass files for that purpose; files which we had in the hospital in order to saw veins with them.
Q. Now, we have been over the low-pressure experiments and you have given us quite a lot of figures. Is there anything else which you feel that you should tell us about these high-altitude experiments?
A. No.
Q. All right. Let's move on to the freezing experiments. When did the freezing experiments start?
A. During August or at the end of July the first freezing experiments started. They were conducted by Prof. Holzloehner, Dr. Finke and Dr. Rascher The freezing experiments can be divided into two separate departments. One a series of Holzloehner-Finke which were later excluded and then a series where Dr. Rascher made these experiments himself.
Q. All right; suppose you describe the experimental basin.
A. The experimental basin was built of wood. It was two meters long and two meters high. It was about 50 centimeters above the floor and it was in Block No.5. There were found in the experimental chamber and basin many lighting instruments and other apparatus which were used in order to carry out measurements.
Q. Now, you have stated that you can divide the freezing experiments into two groups; one where Holzloehner and Finke were working with Rascher and then the period after Holzloehner and Finke had left?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, will you tell the Tribunal approximately how persons were used over the whole period? That is, including both groups that you have mention A. 280 to 300 experimental subjects were used for these freezing experiments.
There were really 360 to 400 experiments that were conducted since many experimental subjects experienced more than one such experiment. Sometimes even three.
Q. Now, out of the total of 280 or 300 prisoners used approximately how many of them died?
A. As a result of these freezing experiments approximately 80 to 90 subjects died.
Q. Now, how many experimental subjects do you remember that they used in the Holzloehner-Finke-Rascher experiments?
A. During that period of time approximately 50 to 60 subjects were used for experimental purposes.
Q. Did any of these experimental subjects die?
A. Yes. During that period of time there were about 15, maybe even 18 cases of death.
Q. When was that experimental series concluded?
A. It was concluded in the month of October. I think it was at the end of October. At that time Holzloehner and Finke discontinued these experiments giving the reason that they had accomplished their purpose and that it was useless to carry out further experiments of that kind.
Q. And then Rascher continued experiments on his own?
A. Yes. Then Rascher conducted these experiments giving the reasons that he had to build a scientific basis for them and he prepared a lecture for University Marburg on that subject.
Q. How long died Rascher continue to experiment with freezing by cold water?
A. Until May 1943.
Q. Now, were the experimental subjects for the freezing experiments selected in the same way as for the high-altitude experiments?
A. No. Here Rascher turned to the camp administration and told them that he needed so and so many experimental subjects. Then the political department of the camp selected ten inmates by name. That list was sent to the Camp Commander and was signed by the Camp Commander and they were then sent to Rascher's station and the subjects on that list had to be experimented on. The original list I could use as evidence material in the first Dachau trial as evidence.
Q. Now do I understand then that the experimental subjects used in the freezing experiments were political prisoners?
A. There were certainly a number of political prisoners and also a number of foreigners, but certainly there were also prisoners for war and also inmates who had been condemned to death.
Q. Those persons were not volunteers were they?
A. No.
Q. Now suppose you describe to the Tribunal exactly how these freezing experiments were carried out, that is what tests they made, how they measure the temperature and how the temperature of the water was lowered in the ba*** and so forth?
A. These basins were filled with water and ice was added until the water measured three degrees, and the experimental subjects were either dressed in a flying suit or were placed into the ice water in a naked state. During the period when Holzloehner and Finke were active most experiments were conducted under narcotiecs while during the Rascher period he had always rejected narcotics because he maintained that you could not find the exact condition of the blood, and that you would exclude the will power of the experimental subject if he was under anesthetic. Now whenever the experiment subjects were conscious it took sometime until so-called freezing narcosis s in. The temperature was measured rectally and through the stomach through the Glavanometer apparatus. The sinking down of the temperature until 32 degress was a terrible plight for the experimental subject. At 32 degrees the experimental subject lost consciousness. These persons were frozen down to 25 degrees body temperature, and now in order to enable you to understand this problem, I should like to tell you something about the Holzloehner and Finke period. During the period when Holzloehner and Finke were active no experimental subject was actually killed in the water. The death cases only occurred at that time during the revial or rather during the re-warming. The temperature was further cooled down which caused the heart failure, and this also occurred because of the flight therapy so that in contrast to the low pressure chamber experiments, it has to be said here that the death victims the Finke-Holzloehner period were not in the basin having their full consciousness, while in the air pressure chamber each death case cannot be considered as an accident, but as a willful murder.
However, it was different when Rascher personally took over these experiments. At that time a large number of the persons involved were kept in the water for so long a time until they were dead.
Q. Now, witness, you have identified the defendant Weltz in the defendant dock. On what occasion did you meet Weltz?
A. I met Weltz in Munich. I saw him there once. According to my recollection it was in Luftgau Department 7, Prinzregenten Strasse No.2, and I saw him speak there to Rascher and at a later date Rascher told me that was Professor Weltz. I remember this incident especially since Rascher often discussed Weltz and his animal experiments which he carried out with reference to freezing matters. I never saw Professor Weltz in Dachau or anywhere in the camp.
Q. Do you know Witness whether Rascher and Weltz exchanged information on freezing problems?
A. I don't know that. I should assume it since Rascher discussed Professor Weltz's experiments, and he certainly must have had some exchange of ideas with Weltz regarding that matter. However, I know of no correspondence with Weltz.
Q. Do you recall the occasion when two Russian officers were experimented upon in the freezing experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you relate that incident to the Tribunal?
A. Yes. It was the worst experiment which was ever carried out. From the bunker two Russian officers were carried out. We were forbidden to speak to them. They arrived in the afternoon at approximately 4 o'clock. Rascher had them undressed and they had to go into the basin in a naked state. Hour after hour passed and when usually after a short time, 60 minutes the freezing would had set in, these two Russians were still conscious even after two hours. All of our appeals ro Rascher asking him to give them an injection was without purpose.
Approximately in the third how one Russian said to the other, ''Comrade, toll that officer, that ho may shoot us." Then the other one replied, "Don't expect any mercy from this Facist dog." Then both shook hands and they said, "Goodbye, Comrade." And how can one imagine that we inmates also had to bo witnesses of such a dcat and could do nothing against it, then you can really estimate how terrible it is to be condemned to work in such an experimental station. After these words, which were translated to Russian by a young Pole in a somewhat diffe form, Rascher went back into his office. The young Polo immediately tried to give them an anesthetic with chloroform, but Rascher returned immediate He threatened us with a pistol, and he said "Don'.t dare interfere and app; those victims." The experiment lastet at least five hours until death set Both corpses were sent to Munich for autopsy in the Schwabisches Hospital there.
Q. Witness, how long did it normally take to kill a person in these from experiments?
A. The length of the experiment varied, according to the individual case It always varied considering the fact whether the subject was clothed or clothed. If his physical construction was weak and if in addition to that I was naked, death often set in already after 80 minutes. But there were a nuber of cases where the experimental subject lived up to three hours, and remained that way in the water until finally death sot in.
THE PRESIDENT: The tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow.
Official Transcript of the American Military" Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany on, December 18, 1946, Justice Beals, presiding.
THE PRESIDENT: The Military 'Tribunal is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will bo order in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will ascertain if the defendants arc present.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honors, all defendants arc present in court this morning.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note in the minutes the presence of the defendants in Court.
The prosecution may proceed.
WALTER NEFF -- Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. McHANEY: (Counsel for prosecution)
Q. Witness, at the end of the session yesterday we were discussing the freezing experiments, the water freezing experiments, and you had described to the Tribunal the death of the two Russian officers; I would like to ask you a few more questions with respect to those freezing experiments. Mil you describe to the Tribunal the method used for renaming the victims of the freezing experiments?
A. During that period when Rascher and Holzhoehner were there the rewarming at tine beginning was carried cut by massage and partly by means of injections of drugs affecting the heart, and also by moans of rewarming by electrical heaters and partly by means of a warm bath. On each occasion the body temperature was that of the experimental subject. At the end of the Hozloehner period the hot water renaming method was introduced and that was carried, out at the end of the re warming period with the exception of a few special experiments with animal warmth. For this warmth about 10 women from the concentration camp at Ravensbrueck were ordered to report to Dachau and were forced to press themselves naked against the body of the frozen person in order to rewarm him in that manner.
These arc the methods which were employed in order to rewarm the frozen body.
Q. Now, Witness, did. I understand you to say that the hot water bath method, of rewarming was not adopted until after Holzloehner and Finke had left?
A. After Holzloehner and. Finko had left the station hot water rewarming was also carried out.
Q. Do you recall receiving orders in September 1942 from Sievers to take the hearts and lungs of 5 inmates who had been killed to Professor Hirth in Strassbourg for further scientific study?
A. It is correct that I had to take specimens from the Morgue belonging to 5 persons who dies during experiments that had to be taken to Strassbourg to Hirth. I myself, of course, have never carried out an abduction and therefore have not prepared these speciments. Sievers at that time gave the order that I should have to go to Strassbourg and there deliver the glasses to Professor Hirth, together with an accompanying letter. This was the end of September or the beginning of October. The travel warrant had been made cut by Sievers and likewise the bodies' expense were born by Ahnenerbe.
Q. Had the 5 experimental subjects been killed shortly before you left for Strassbourg?
A. I cannot remember with absolute certainty whether the specimens were fresh or whether they originated from earlier death eases. I do know that amongst the specimens there was one from a Dutchman. The ether four I cannot recollect for certain to say which nationality they were.
Q. Did yon deliver these hearts and lungs to Professor Hirth in Strassbourg?
A. I delivered them in Strassbourg, not directly to Professor Hirth, but I had to hand them over to the laboratory at the University there. The letter to Professor Hirth I handed, to. him personally, and he wanted me to return and see him in the afternoon, since he had to give scathing to me to take to Dachau.
He gave no a closed letter to Dr. Rascher and a parcel which I handed Rascher for him to give to Sister Pia.
Q. Now, professor Hirth was also a member, in fact the head of the Department of the Ahnenerbe Society, was he not?
A. We know that professor Hirth was also making experiments and belonged to the Ahnenerbe Society.
Q. Tell mo just what you knew about these experiments which Professor Hirth was carrying out?
A. I can only repeat what I have heard. Amongst us in the camp there was a rumor that Professor Hirth was also making freezing experiments with comrades from the concentration camp at Natzweiler, but I have not heard any confirmation of this.
Q. Did you hear what sort of experiments these were?
A. I only heard about freezing experiments, what type or any details I do not know.
Q. I suggest to you that Professor Hirth was carrying out mustard and Lost gas experiments; did you over hear of that?
A. No.
Q. As I recall you having stated Sievers made certain visits to the experimental station when the freezing experiments were being carried out?
A. Yes, Sievers visited the experimental station quite frequently. He was present a few times during experiments, but I do not recollect whether he was present during experiments which resulted in death.
Q. Didn't Rascher make written reports to Sievers as being the Reich manager of the Ahnenerbe Society?
A. There were monthly reports at the first of the month and quarterly and 6 monthly reports, which were detailed reports to the Ahnenerbe Society. They were the working reports, following in detail Exactly what types of experiments and how many experiments were carried out. I also know at the end of these reports that the number of deaths were stated. I have deposited a copy of these reports with the Tribunal in Dachau.
Q. Now, Witness, didn't Rascher also make reports to the Luftgau No. 7 in Dachau?
A. In Dachau to Air District No. 7 and the Sanitary Department of No. 7 final reports. These were reports which were handled as top secret, and they were sent to the Reichsfuehrer-SS, Silvers and to the Sanitary Department of the Air District.
Q. Tell the Tribunal, Witness, what this Luftgau No. 7 in Munich was?
A. That I cannot explain. I only know that the designation Luftgau Sanitaets amt No. 7 existed, and that the offices were in the Prinz Regentenstr.
, and that Rascher was receiving instruction from there to. To whom the reports were handed directly and to whom they were passed on, is something I do not know.
Q. But you do know that Luftgau No. 7 was a medical installation of the Luftwaffe, isn't that so?
A. Yes.
Q. And was it not on the occasion of the delivery of one of these reports when you went with Rascher to Luftgau No. 7 and on that occasion that you saw the defendant Weitz?
A. Whether it was on that occasion when a report was delivered or some other occasion, since Rascher visited Luftgau No. 7 quite frequently, is something I cannot recollect exactly. I don't want to state that it was just the day when a top secret matter was handed over.
Q. Was Rascher well known in Luftgau No. 7 in Munich?
A. Yes, because before Rascher was the head of the experimental station in Dachau he had an experimental station dealing with "E" measures at Schongau, also coming under Luftgau No. 7.
Q. Now, "fitness, let's move along to the dry freezing experiments- when were they first conducted, do you know?
A. According to my recollection the air freezing experiments wore carried out in January, February and March 1943. First of all one experiment was made when the prisoner was placed on a stretcher at night and put outside the block He was covered with a linen sheet, but a bucket of cold water was poured over him hourly. That experimental subject remained there under these conditions until the morning and the temperature of that experimental subject was taken with a thermometer. Later Rascher said that it had been a mistake to cover the person with a linen cloth and pour wafer over him since that had produced wrong results as the air could not get at the body of the person, and therefore in the future experimental subjects were not allowed to be covered up any longer. The next experiment was a mass experiment when 10 prisoners were also put outside naked at night. The temperature of one of them was measured with a galvanometer, the others with a thermometer.
Raschor was present during approximately eighteen to twenty experiments of that type, but I cannot remember exactly how many deaths occurcd and if deaths occured in connection with those experiments. I would like to say with certain reservations that approximately three deaths occurcd during that peris One one of the subsequent days, Dr. Raschor telephoned me and said that Dr. Grawitz was here and he was demanding that at least one hundred experiment of that type should bo carried out.
He gave me the order that ten experiments had to be carried out that night by me. I told him. that this was an impossibility since I did not have the material to carry out the experiments. I tries to stop it. Dr. Grawitz then took over the phone end he said I should not try to make excuses, but should carry cut the experiments. I said I would try to carry them out. I went back to the block and discussed the matter with my comrades. My comrades said they thought it would be bettor to carry out the experiments without Raschor being present, for if Rascher was present, it would bo more dangerous.
We gave an evipan anaesthetic to ten prisoners. One detainee was put out until ten o'clock in the morning. At night, at ten o'clock, it was said no one could enter the camp. If it should bo entered, it would be an SS man or Dr. Raschor and we would bo warned because the camp would be illuminated with a red lamp, the sign for the guards, as no one was allowed to move in the camp.
Toward six o'clock we found the patients back outside, but we took a careful record indicating that ten experiments were made. That is why in the record of the experiences carried cut by Dr. Rascher, it is stated that experimental subjects had remained from the evening in outside temperature from three to ten degrees below freezing without anything happening to them and that a hot bath put them back on their feet. An expert would say immediately this was a possibility that cannot be exact. It was in that manner in theory we carried out one hundred experiments, but in practice there were only twenty. I want to emphasize in these experiments, there were neither cases of illness or death. If during these experiments any detainees suffered in any way. I would be full; responsible for them. I know as a comrade, I was more responsible to my comrade than those who need not bother their conscience with this affair.
Q. I understood you to say something about approximately throe deaths a few moments ago. What did you have reference to then?
A. These deaths were due to the fact that during the initial period of these air freezing experiments, which occured when Dr. Rascher was present, when, of course, it was impossible to put the people inside the cell or blocks, that they died of the consequences or died during the freezing,
Q. How long were those people kept outdoors?
A. The longest period about which I know lasted from six P.M. to nine A.M., the following morning. It was a man Rascher kept outside for experimental purposes.
Q. How low did their temperatures drop?
A. The lowest temperature, which lean recollect during the open air freezing experiments was twenty five degrees body temperature.
Q. I take it that these experimental subjects suffered quite a lot. Is that true?
A. Yes, because at the beginning Rascher had prohibited that these experiments were to be carried out under anesthetic, but the experimental subjects screamed to such an extent it was impossible for Rascher to carry out the experiments without anesthetic, so he wrote a report to the Reichsfuchrer SS in which he gave reasons and made the suggestion that these experiments in the future would not be carried on in Dachau, but in Auschwitz or some other camp.
Q. Now, were these experimental, subjects selected in the some manner as those for the wot freezing and high altitude experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. In other words, some of the experimental subjects were political prisoners, some were criminal prisoners and not all of them had been condemn to deaths that correct?
A. Of the experimental subjects subjected to air cooling experiments, none were people who were sentenced to death, They were prisoner of various nationalities. There were also German political prisoners and "green" prisoners. 638
Q. And these prisoners had not volunteered? Had they?
A. No.
Q. Now, witness, tell us to the best of your ability, tell us how long Dr. Rascher was a member of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe?
A. I can only say that up until the end of 1943 Rascher appeared in the SS uniform. On the other hand, I know that as early as the beginning of these freezing experiments, they were carried out by the Ahnenerbe Institute and the finances o'f the Ahnenerbe Institute paid the expenses.
Q. How do you know that they paid the expenses?
A. I know that from the correspondence, which Rascher had with the Ahnenerbe Institute since the clerk working in the office was telling us currently about most important matters. He, too, you know, was a prisoner.
Q. But, Rascher did up until the end of 1943 wear the uniform of al Luftwaffe officer; s that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So that all during the high altitude experiments, the freezing experiments in water and the air freezing experiments, Rascher was wearing the uniform of a Lultwaffe officer; s that right?
A. Yes, ho was a captain or staff medical officer of the Luftwaffe.
Q. Alright, witness. Let us move on to a different matter. You remember that you worked with Robert Weichs, Pacholek and Rascher in connection with blood coagulation drugs?
A. Yes, but pacholek did not arrive at the station until the beginning of 1942, whereas Robert Weichs came in May of 1943, May 1, with the permission of this High. Tribunal, explain in detail the circumstances under which those drugs wore worked on, parallel with the time the air freezing experiments and the water freezing experiments were going on? Now Rancher was trying to develop a new type of freezing experiment by use of direct blood pressure device and he was looking for machinery which would enable him to take blood pressure directly after. It was impossible to take it directly on the experiments once they reached bottom level. This would cause a new lot of experiments and we were determined to stop Rascher at all costs in some way or another from taking on this type of experiments.
I was sent out to find a chemical assistant. Ho needed someone for the laboratory who would be able to help as someone would have to bo there for this work on the prisoners themselves. Weichs was introduced to me; but he refused to try Rascher's experiments and he said he would not work in the laboratory. He said he was a chemist and the only thing he would be able to make was a coagulation which would be used in powder form. After checking with my comrades, we decided we must have this man at the station at any costs and maybe it would be possible to stop Rascher from amking rhose experiments in order to make him carry out harmless experiments. Rascher turned me anyway on two occasions; but the third time he followed my suggestions.
I, myself, went to Weichs' relatives to discuss the matter with him and told him and his lawyer that I was pursuing the plan to detain Rascher, whom I knew was a blood-hound and thus to bring Weichs into the station in order to bring out an easier type of experiment, as good human judgment was not causing the experiments.
There was an agreement on the lawyer's part and also on Weichs' part and thus Weichs came to our station. At the beginning of May, Rascher went on leave and in the meantime Weichs had started with the production of coagulant tablets Rascher returned towards the end of -ay and a method was developed which would enable us to test the effectiveness of these tablets. This was a well known clinical method. From a vein some blood was extracted by means of a hypodermic syringe and the drops of blood were placed on a glass plate, and then by means of a small glass tick they were stirred in order to find out how soon they would get solid. Then the person in question would take one or two tablets, and them every five, ten and fifteen minutes more blood was extracted in drops in order the test its qualities. Likewise, these tablets were sent to the dentist station and to the operating theater. Right up until I was transferred to the front --- or rather until I became ill in the end of Juno or the beginning of July, I never observed a single occasion when anyone might have suffered through these experiments, "hen I came back from the front they had reached the state whore Rascher was entending to begin the production of these coalulant tablets which was to take place in Luchenau (?) near the Swiss border.
Q Well, witness, I understand that they made these clinical tests on these blood coagulant drugs, but don't you also know that Rascher shot people and created wounds on their body to test this blood coagulation drug under more realistic conditions?
A Only after the arrival of the American troops, I heard rumors to that effect from a comrade, that things like that were supposed to have at that time.
Q Well, but, witnes s, suppose you saw certain documents all written by Oswald Pohl to Rascher and you saw a lot of Rascher's mail in which Pohl took Rascher to task for having mentioned in an article that experiments were made on concentration camp inmates, would you suppose that those experiments were the simple clinical tests which you, have mentioned?
AA written report from Rascher to Pohl is known to me. The situation was this: Rascher was walking a number of important written reports by writing them at home, not in the station. If such a report is in existence then it certainly wasn't written in the station's office because I have no knowledge of any similar report.
Furthermore, we must consider this: From June 1943 until January 1944 I was absent from the station.
Q You do not recall having soon a letter then from Oswald Pohl to Dr. Rascher telling him that ho must not mention in any report that ho has been experimenting on concentration camp inmates with respect to polygal or this blood coagulation drug?
A No. I know nothing of such a report.
Q Put you din hoar after you returned from the Russian front that Rascher had in f act created wounds artificially on prisoners in order to test this blood coagulation drug, did you not?
A For all necessary matters, I only heard -- not after my return from the Russian front -- hut earlier and alter after the arrival of the Americans.
Q You were never present in the crematorium with Rascher whom he dissected a body and used the blood coagulant to sec if it would staunch the flow of blood?
A No, I never saw that.
Q Tell me, fitness, you remember having seen Professor Blome on one occasion, don't you?
A I saw Professor Blome once fleetingly in Munich at a time when Weichs had to return a radio set to Blome, but I never saw Blome at the station.
Q I didn't ask you if you had seen him at the station, but I ask you now if ho had a mustache when you saw him?
A I didn't pay enough attention; therefore I can't say whether he was wearing a mustache or not.
Q Now, did you hear hr. Rascher mention blome's name on occasions?
A Yes, that is correct to say that Rascher spoke of Blome quite frequently not so much to us though but when visitors were there, such as standartenfuchrer Sievers or other visitors from the SS, then Blome was talked about.
A He was mentioned in connection with the coagulation drugs and also in connection with Weichs.
Q Did you understand that Blome was interested in the experiments being conducted on polygal? 642