the Jewish commander of the Ghetto told me, that was Lieutenant Rosenblatt-after he had gained confidence in me because I had gone in with a false pass - he told me personally "I was picked out by the SS. When of new group of Jews comes into this GhettoLitzmannstadt and crowd the Ghetto I am not to select exactly the same number of Jews, and I knew that they would be gassed. That is I was selected by the SS, to determine who was to be gassed. Now, I ask you in the name of God, Mr. Hiels cher, you are a Christian, what am I to do? I had nothing to do with that. I have asked the Rabbis. I have asked the odl people themselves and we have come to the decision that I must stay in this office. At least I can determine the persons - I can at least select the oldest people who can't stand life in a Ghetto and perhaps, in this way, perhaps I will be able to save the life of one person. These two old people that I tell about, were about seventy years old. There were five Christain under the Jews. At least I was able to see that they were all gassed together. They asked me to, please tell their daughter we were able to achieve that. Tell me, did I do right or not?" That is even much horrible because the man could not even reduce the number He had no hope as we had to suppress some of them. Nevertheless I was ashamed that the people who were in charge of this camp were called Germans. But I said: "You have acted right and your are justified in the eyes of God."
Q Now, Dr. I assume that the defense counsel has shown you all the documents concerning the skeleton collection. Is that right?
A Yes.
Q There won't be any need for me to go over them. You have stated in connection with the one document that was presented to you today on the stand that this was a very praiseworthy act on the part of Sievers in a negative way. Since you are familiar with all the skeleton collection documents - I had intended to go into each one but I will just go into one. That is, Document No-088, prosecution Exhibit 182, found in Document Book 9. This is a document which was written by Sievers. You will see that thereon his signature appears Do you recognize the signature at the bottom cf the letter?
A Yes.
Q Weel, now Sievers here is proposing a way in which they can destroy the skeleton collection so that it will not be know to any one- that is, of the Allies when they overrun Strasbourg. And you will notice, two-third of the way through, the one paragraph, that it states: This viscera could be declared as remnants of corpses apparently left in the anatomical Institute by the French....." Do you see that?
A Yes Q "IN order to be cremated."
Now this is an idea of one Welfram Sievers wherein he is suggesting that these, or the results of these criminal activities be left so that it may, by the Allies, be blamed on to the French, and bearing in mind, of course that the French, as well as the United States, Grest Britain and other Allies were equally as interested as the resistance movement were in defeating the Nazi regime, were they not?
A I have already said that it was Sievers8' duty to say "yes" and to act negatively but, of course, I did not praise this action, but I praised the vocabulary, the formulation. He spoke like a Nazi The concrete question in such case was simply as follows: Can any one been saved here or not? If no one could be saved, what can I do to keep up the appearance of a Nazi since I know that Obersturmbannfuehrer Neuhaus suspects that I have some contact with the resistance movement. Sievers, since the 20th of July, or rather since my arrest, was constantly doing things to look like Nazi actions, insofar as no one is actually killed, then that is part of his duty, part of the mask without which the organization cannot operate.
Q Yes, but from this letter does it not suggest that he was willing to allow an innocent Frenchman to answer for the crimes which flowed out of this skeleton collection activity?
A If you show me....
Q I have asked you--does it not appear from this letter, this letter signed by Sievers, that he was willing to allow a Frenchman to suffer for the crimes committed during the course of the collection of these skeletons?
A Yes, the letter quite deliberately, I believe, creates this impression. That was the purpose of it, like all such letters.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
JUDGE SEBRING: Doctor, the Tribunal would like to ask you a few questions, please.
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q To what extent was the fact of the existence of concentration camps in Germany known to the people of Germany?
A The existence of concentration camps, that is the fact that there were any?
Q The fact that there were concentration camps in Germany--was that known to anyone?
A In my opinion that was everywhere known since 1933.
Q You think then.... Was it known to you since 1933?
A The fact that there were concentration camps, that was general knowledge in my opinion.
Q Was it actually known to you that there were concentration camps in Germany?
A Yes. Not only that, but what happened in them, because since 1933 I had opportunity to talk to people who had been in concentration camps, and in one case I succeeded in getting someone out; interestingly enough, I got a very frightened and very short report from this person.
Q From your knowledge of the situation, how many concentration camps would you say there were in Germany during the year 1939?
A Up to 1939 the number of concentration camps which I knew about was 5, 6, perhaps 7, no more.
Q What would you say about the year 1940?
A The number of concentration camps increased rapidly with the beginning of the war. First, because the NSDAP or rather the SS, began to send foreigners to these concentration camps in larger numbers; and secondly because the number of Germans who were arrested because they were opposed to the war were also added.
Q Well, can you estimate how many were here in 1940?
A No, I do not know any figures. The number increased considerably, however.
Q What about 1941?
A I can only say that I did not trouble about these figures specifically. That was outside the range of what was needed, practically.
Q 1942?
A I can only repeat, I do not know any figures.
Q 1943?
A I can only repeat the same answer.
Q 1944?
A I can only repeat the same answer.
Q 1945?
A The real number of concentration camps I learned from the publications of the Allies.
Q These may seem odd questions to you, doctor, but there has been testimony from this witness stand that you now occupy, from certain witnesses who have taken the stand, which would tend to lead the Tribunal to believe that during all of this period of time the existence of concentration camps in Germany, in any considerable numbers, was a fact not known to the German people and was a fact not known to people within the middle and higher levels of the Nazi government and the Nazi military machine. That is the reason that the Court has addressed that question to you.
A I can only say the following. In my opinion the existence of several--to speak very carefully--several concentration camps, was generally known to the German population. The fact that these concentration camps increased suddenly after the outbreak of war was not so generally known. It might be assumed, if I think of conversations with harmless citizens or National Socialists in railroad trains, they perhaps assumed that the concentration camps increased, but there was no idea of the numbers. But the fact that they did exist and that there were several and that there were thousands of people in them, I consider that common knowledge of the whole population. But nobody knew what was actually happening there.
Q Now you said something a moment ago to the effect that you not only knew of the existence of concentration camps but you knew of the activities which went on in concentration camps. Did I understand you correctly?
A Yes.
Q Over what period of time have those activities become know to you?
A It began with two pieces of information in 1933 which were the first of this kind and which therefore impressed themselves on my memory. I heard the first thing from Socialist friends in the very beginning. I heard that people were put into bathtubs with water of 80 degrees centigrade and that their skin was then peeled off while they were living. At about the same time I received information from my friend, Karl August Witvogel, who, through my intervention, had been released from a concentration camp in northwestern Germany. What shocked me most was the fact that this man, who did not agree with me politically but who had personal confidence in me, and who knew from his wife that I had been instrumental in having him released--that this man was extremely worried and afraid to tell me any details although I was a friend of his. He finally gave me hints about flogging and other kinds of punishment; and from then on I received information constantly.
Q What type of prisoner was this man, a criminal or a political prisoner?
A This man was a political prisoner.
Q A German political prisoner?
A A German political prisoner.
Q Now can you say to what extent these activities were generally known among the German people?
A I can say that these actions--what actually happened in concentration camps--to our astonishment, in view of the large number of people who went through the concentration camps, were actually unknown among the German population. That was true up to 1943. I recall long conversations with Schulenburg and Reichwein, where it was repeatedly said - "It is terrible we cannot tell the people about these things. As soon as you open your mouth you disappear yourself and nothing gets talked around."
Q Well, would these activities be the sort of things that could be carried on as a matter of course in concentration camps without high level officials in the SS or in the government having to have some knowledge of these activities?
A In my opinion, people of the rank of Ribbentrop, to give an example, or Kaltenbrunner, even before they gained this or that position, they must have known exactly what was going on. But I do not know about this, insolar as our group, as well as the others who had been seriously thinking of an armed uprising since 1933, had to be very careful in contact with circles who were either convinced Nazis or, in the unfortunately still more customary way, were without any convictions. Any work could be suicide. And so I am not informed.
Q To what extent, if any, was the fact that concentration camp inmates were being used for human medical experiments generally known to the German people?
AAmong the German people I personally heard nothing about it; that is, on my many trips and many talks I heard nothing about it. I do not imagine that many people knew about it.
Q. And I understood you to say that the defendant Sievers told you something about those things; during the course of any of his conversations did ha name anyone who was associated in any of these experiments, did he give you the names of anyone?
A. Yes, the first one that he gave me, and this is how our conversation started, if I remember, he gave me the name of Dr. Raschor, as the real director. He said ho was a most particularly unpleasant creature.
Q. I think you said that the volunteering among concentration camp inmates for these experiments was always, in your opinion, under compulsion; that though it appeared upon tho surface that an experimental subject was a volunteer; yet if tho fact were known he was in truth and in fact acting under compulsion; is that what you said?
A. What I meant was the following: It was said formally every inmate volunteered for such experiments; if someone did not volunteer he suffered from it, but if he did volunteer he was promised advantages. Now, the important thing was the following: Every man who was in a concentration camp knew the system; that is, he expected that sooner or later he would have to die. For that reason he grasped at straws, and the promise that a person who volunteered for such experiment if he escaped with his life he would receive a pardon of some sort, in this promise I see objective compulsion. The people were put into such a situation by the concentration camps that any door which might lead back to life, lead to a resolution to take advantage of every opportunity. The treatment was so terrible they grasped at straws, and that is why such straws were held out to them.
Q. Doctor, I think you said sievers discussed with you the various aspects of these experiments; let me ask you in detail what do you know about tho high altitude experiments which were supposed to have been conducted in Dachau from about March to August 1942 on concentration camp inmates for the purpose of investigating the limits of human endurance and existence at extremely high latitudes; did you learn something of this from Sievers?
A. I did not ask for any details from Sievers about the various experiments. I did not ask him for any details or discussion at the beginnings, and when he was particularly excited and again in the course of the whole matter it was on the ethical question, whether there was any moral justification for his staying on his post. We did not discuss the technical details. One must remember we generally talked in the Ahnenerbe, and even if we were pretty safe there, if a third person heard one word, -- if a third person heard that Sievers was talking to me about these things that would be enough to have this Fuehrer Order No. 1, which the Prosecutor mentioned, put into effect, so we stuck to the prevention of limiting our discussions to what was absolutely necessary, and that was the ethical question.
Q. I assume then that he did not tell you the names of any persons connected with this particular experiment, the high altitude experiment, other perhaps than Rascher?
A. No, with the exception of Dr. Rascher, and once when he was so happy he had helped Ploetner, he mentioned Plootner to me. Otherwise, he told me no names.
Q. Then I assume from what you said he did not give you any details about freezing experiments conducted at Dachau in 1942, is that correct?
A. No, I do not remember of any specific details.
Q. Did he give you any particulars as to human experiments conducted at Dachau for the purpose of investigating immunization for and the treatment of malaria, from different periods, beginning with February 1942 and ending about April 1945?
A. No, he did not. I remember only that the name Ploetner as mentioned in connection with Maleria, but I may be mistaken.
Q. Did he give you any particulars about experiments conducted at Sachsenhausen, Natweiler, and other concentration camps at various times from September 1939 until April 1945 on concentration camp inmates, to investigate the most effective treatment for burns caused by Lost gas?
A. Before 1942 I do not recall any such conversation. After 1942 I do not remember anything about the name Mustard Gas. I just remember that human experiments were constantly being carried out. It was all very general, and he used to say the whole thing was so terrible he didn't know what to do.
Q. Did he tell you anything about experiments conducted at Ravensbrueck concentration camp from July 1942 to September 1943 on concentration camp inmates to investigate the effectiveness of sulphamilamide wherein wounds were deliberately inflicted on concentration camp subjects who were then infected with strepticocci or gas gangrene, and then a treatment for that; do you nothing about that from Sievers?
A. No, I don't know much about the individual experiments.
Q. Did Dr. Sievers tell you anything about experiments conducted at Dachau from July 1944 to September 1944 to study various methods of making sea water drinkable wherein concentration camp inmates were deprived of all food and given on chemically processed sea water; did he discuss that with you?
A. No, not in detail.
Q. Did he discuss with you anything about experiments conducted at Sachsenhausen and Natzweiler concentration camps from about June 1943 to about January 1945 to investigate the causes of and inoculation against epidemic jaundice, wherein experimental subjects who were concentration camp inmates were deliverately infected with epidemic jaundice?
A. No, he didn't tell me any of the details.
Q. Did Dr. Sievers discuss with you anything about human experiments conducted at Buchenwald and Natzweiler concentration camps from about December 1941 to about February 1945 to investigate the effectiveness of spotted fever and other vaccines, wherein healthy concentration camp inmates were deliberately infected with spotted fever virus?
A. No, no details.
JUDGE SEBRING: Thank you very much.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I have another question or two, if the Court permits me, to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: I desire to ask a few questions, then you may. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. When was it, Witness, that it began to occur to you that Germany had lost or would lose the War?
A. That the War was lost seemed to me very probable from the moment it began.
Q. When did you become convinced that the war was lost?
A. That is hard to say. I should like to say it was after the 20th of July.
Q. Are you familiar with German criminal processes before the War?
A. No.
Q. Have you any idea, if a German national was convicted of murder or some crime which carried the death sentence, how long it would be after the sentence was imposed before the man would be executed?
A. I must rectify my answer that I gave before. I was a Jurist, and I studied law and I went through all tho positions before I left the service, but I know nothing about the period between the sentence and execution, at least I don't recall knowing it.
Q. Did you serve in the German Army?
A. At the time I served as a Silesian, I was in the Free Corps, in 1919, against the Poles, and this was taken over by the Reichswehr. The Free Corps unit there wanted to take part in the Kapp-Putsch, and since I didn't approve of this I left, I left.
Q. In a German Army occupying foreign territory, and if certain of those foreign nationals were charged and convicted of the crime of sabotage against the German Army, and condemned to death by military or other German Court, in that foreign country, have you any idea how long it would be before that sentence would be executed?
A. Do you mean in the National Socialist Army?
Q. I don't understand you, Witness
A. Do you mean the National Socialist Army in the second World War?
Q. Yes.
A. I know nothing about that in general. I only know that it was very quickly carried out.
Q. Do you have any idea, that foreign nationals who were so convicted would be sent back to Germany to be executed?
A. I know of shootings, even without a sentence, and I don't know what was done if such quick justice was not carried out.
Q. Do you think it probable that such foreign nationals, tried and convicted before a German Military or Occupational Court in a foreign country, and sentenced to death, would then be sent back to Germany, persons under that sentence of death so imposed.
A. I don't know of any such case.
THE PRESIDENT: Has counsel for the Prosecution any inquiry?
MR. HARDY: I just have one or two questions, your Honor.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Regarding these letters written by Sievers that you say you admired the way in which sievers wrote because of his position; did you see those letters prior to your appearance here in Nurnberg?
A. No, I did not see the letters before they appeared here. What I give credit for is the authentic national socialist tone.
Q. Did you ever see any letters wherein Sievers wrote to members of the Party, or concerning Party activities, such as these letters which are in evidence before this Tribunal; did you ever see any of these letters prior to your appearance here in Nurnberg, of any description?
A. Unless they were sent to members of my own organization and were camouflaged letters, no.
Q. Did Sievers ever tell you about the way ho conducted himself concerning some of these various criminal activities of the Nazis?
A. You mean in connection with the experiments, or what do you mean?
Q. Yes, in connection with the experiments?
A. Sievers told me, that was at the beginning when we had this fundamental discussion which lasted some time, he said he would try to carry out sabotage wherever he could as General Secretary, and as always, I left him a completely free hand to carry this out, as I did with all my people.
Q. Now then, when this process started, that is, I will go further back, when tho International Military Tribunal served the indictment on Goering, et al, did you at that time volunteer the information you possessed to any investigating authority concerned with these trials here in Nurnberg?
A. Since 1945, since Professor Heiler made me acquainted with the American Military Government in Harburg, I described to this M G, as well as the English Military Government in Goettingen and Hamburg our resistance group. Is that what you mean?
Q. I mean, did you ever tell any Military Government directly concerned with Military Tribunals, for instance, did you over write to Mr Hardy, carw of I.M.T., and tell him you had information concerning medical experiments. During tho past two years, since the end of the war did you write to anyone and inform them that you could enlighten them as to some of the activities regarding the medical experiments?
A. I did not write to Mr. Hardy.
Q. Did you write to anyone?
A. I went to severed agencies, and I was always given the name of a different office, and they always said they were not competent. Since 1945 I have been offering my help, and have been saying I could give information about Sievers, and all his actions. I was never able to give this testimony, because as I have said everyone sent me on to someone else, and everyone said he was not competent. This continued until I finally found Mr. Weisgerber, and this trial, was finally opened to our joy.
MR. HARDY: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any further questions of the witness of any defense counsel?
DR. NELTE: Dr. Nelte, counsel for Handloser.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, how long will you examination of the witness take.
DR. NELTE: Perhaps 20 minutes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(Thereupon Court adjourned until 9:30 a.m. April 16, 1947) Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the-matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 16 April 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I. Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this hon orable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor, all defendants are present in court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.
Counsel may proceed with examination of the witness.
FRIEDRICH HIELSCHER - Resumed RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is reminded that he is still under oath.
BY DR. NELTE (Counsel for the defendant Handloser):
Q. Yesterday, witness, the Tribunal asked you a few questions, that witnesses and defendants have declared on the witness stand under oath that the terrible things which happened behind the barbed wire had been unknown to them. You will understand that people who have not lived in our environment, as they look back after all the atrocities have been revealed, cannot understand how this could be possible. Yesterday, if my notes are correct, you said, "The existence of concentration camps was known in Germany but nobody knew what happened there," is that right?
A. I didn't say nobody. I meant nobody who was not politically active against the Nazis.
Q. We shall see. The question is: Did the general public, the German people as a whole, or did only a few people know, or did certain groups know about these things? Now he asked you yesterday spoke of the Fuehrer Order No. 1. Then you know about it.
Would you agree with me if I were to say that this Fuehrer Order No. 1 was the typical expression of Hitler's principle, divide et impera, divisions of the various spheres of work and strictest secrecy? Would you agree with me?
A. Yes, I would. I believe, in addition, the actual significance of the Fuehrer's order becomes understandable only if one considers the pressure under which the whole nation was living; that is, the knowledge that if I say anything carelessly I'll disappear and I don't know what will happen to me.
Q. You say that was the prerequisite for the effect and it was the consequence of this order, and it was the intention, because in the last analysis the whole nation was not behind the system to achieve by division what could be achieved with a minority. Were the concentration camps under the SS as early as 1933?
A. I know that concentration camps were guarded by SA and that there was a struggle about the control of concentration camps among the higher party agencies. The example that I gave yesterday where people were thrown into water at 80 degrees Centigrade and then their skin was taken off, that was done by the SA.
ing Q. This Hitler order sett/up the basic principle of secrecy was now expanded and completed in the SS. Are you aware that aside from this Hitler order there was a general order from Himmler for the SS which provided severe penalties, even death, for violation of the obligation to secrecy?
A. I don't recall the text but I know the general effect.
Q. You know that an order existed?
A. Yes, I know that there were some such orders.
Q. Now, what if someone wanted to visit a concentration camp? Could he go to a camp and ask to be let in?
A I don't think that any one in Germany would have come upon the idea of simply going to a concentration camp and asking to be let in.
Q Was it possible to visit a camp and what requirements had to be fulfilled?
A One had to have connection with the SS and under some pretext try to find a legimate excuse for wanting to get in. One had to find an excuse that agreed with the SS vocabulary. I have to look at this from the point of view of my own work.
Q Yes, but, of course, I have to ask you, in judging these things, to distinguish between your specific case and the case of the person who did not have these special connections which you had.
AA normal German would not dare to think to get into a concentration camp.
Q Could the members of the camp administration and the guards talk about the things which they observed to third persons?
A No, of course not.
Q Could the inmates tell their relatives or any one else in letters about what they observed?
A No, of course not.
Q If some one was fortunate enough to be released could he freely describe what he had seen and experienced?
A Except for personal conversations with his best friend or with his wife, such people were very reticent.
Q Was that because of a systematic order, a waiver which they had to sign or some such thing?
A It was because of the tortures which this man had experienced himself, or had seen, and the knowledge which he had received in the concentration camp of the malevolence of the SS system, and on the probability which bordered on certainty that if he said any thing to any one and was not 100% certain that that person would be silient he would be sent back to the camp and would be killed immediately.
Q Well, let us sum up this system. Primarily, the basic Hitler order of secrecy, the specific orders from Himmler for the SS, the concrete orders for the camps and events in the camps, and the conclusion is it correct that all these orders were carried out with the greatest severity?
A Yes.
Q That this systematic secrecy, in effect, had to lead to the general public that is everyone who did not have something to in some official connection or some other connection such as yours, learning nothing about what happened in concentration camps?
A I can only repeat what I said yesterday. The general public knew that the camps existed. There was a general impression that something very unpleasant happened in the camps. What actually did happen in the camps was not known to the public up to the end of the war.
Q You said that there was a general horror of concentration camps - this feeling that something was happening there. For example, medical experiments on prisoners?
A No, this did not refer to any details at all. It had the following significance. Everyone knew people disappeared from time to time and were no longer seen. A large number of these people did not return at all. Those who did return were extremely reticent, even to their own brother, cousin or parents. That was all. And this uneasy feeling that there is something going on, something that one wouldn't like to get involved in - that was the intended effect of the existence of the camps.
Q Did any one of the public get the idea that experiments on human beings might be carried out?
A I can only repeat that no one had any idea of any details or had any clear impression of what was going on. Otherwise, our underground work would have been much easier if we had been able to use such general knowledge.
Q I can, of course, imagine that if some one knew some one has been sent to a concentration camp he could imagine that it was rather unpleasant there, as if some one is sent to prison or to a penitentiary, but what I wan to know is this. Could the idea of horror mean anything so specific to the individual as the experiments which were carried out there?
A I can only repeat that the general impression was a stricter form of penitenitary. Nothing specific, just a general unpleasant impression.
Q But in a penitenitary one doesn't generally imagine that experiments are conducted on the inmates, then this feeling could never arise that human experiments were being carried out in the camp? Is that so?
A I know nothing of any such specific impression among the general public.
Q In this system as you have discussed it I should like to ask - did it make any difference among the German population in general, whether some one was in a high position, whether he learned anything specific, anything positive about what went on in concentration camps, or can one say that that was generally impossible and did not depend upon the position of the official?
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, this ground has been covered rather extensively, both by the defense counsel, the prosecution and the Tribunal. I object to any further questioning of this kind.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection overruled. Counsel may proceed for a few minutes.
BY DR. NELTE:
Q Did you understand me? The Tribunal asked whether any certain groups, because of their position, would necessarily have to know about.
......
A I can answer the question only generally for the higher or middle officials in the various ministries that was the subject of our conversations - what can be done with these government officials; and the impression of all my friends in all the groups, Right or Left, without any distinction, was that this class of government officials, not only since 1933, not only since 1919, not only since Bismarck, were disgustingly unpolitical and had no education outside of their specialized field. They worked in their own field and had no idea about anything else and didn't worry about anything else. That was the whole psychological prerequisite for holding National Socialism power. Nothing could be done with these people that didn't know anything.
Q Now, if a general, for example, says here on the witness stand in answer to the question "Did you know what happened in the concentration cemps?" If he says, under oath "No", would you believe that?
A That is a very difficult question because we all laughed at the stupidity of the generals. It is quite possible that just because he was a general he knew nothing, unless he was related to some one who was connected with the 20th of July.
Q When you say "unless there were specific connections with the events and with these camps......"
A No, no, I meant to say that the generals, who formed a quite distinct class in society, and a large number of people executed after the 20th of July, were executed because this class insofar as they weren't anti-Nazi, didn't always maintain secrecy. I don't knew who you are talking about here, but if a general, says he knew nothing and he was related to some one connected with the 20th of July, then I don't believe it likely.
Q Then, if I make my question more specific: Professor Handloser said that he knew nothing of the events in these concentration camps?