I have no knowledge of any such letter.
THE PRESIDENT: Will counsel inform the counsel for the Prosecution and the Tribunal to what he refers?
(no response)
The Tribunal suggests that counsel inform the Tribunal and counsel for the Prosecution as to the Document to which he refers?
DR. BOEHM: Your Honor, I cannot determine that at this point, but in the course of my examination I shall present and make known the letter.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
MR. HARDY: The prosecution should like to know if this letter is available, has it been a Prosecution exhibit and to what it refers. I have no idea as to what is referred.
DR. BOEHM: I shall explain that.
THE PRESIDENT: Will counsel proceed to enlighten the Tribunal and counsel?
DR. BOEHM: Yes.
Q What else do you know of Professor Klauberg?
A I know nothing else about Professor Klauberg.
Q Did you know about any other sterilization experiments which were supposed to have been carried out in concentration camps, and which were of a criminal nature?
A No, I know nothing about them. If I had heard anything about sterilization I would have had to assume it was sterilization according to the valid laws.
Q This, after all is a matter which deals to a certain extent with matters concerning population; was it not that Grawitz consulted you in these population and racial matters?
A No, I was not an advisor of Grawitz in this sense. In the first place Grawitz did not accept any advice, also not in this field. He had his own particular ideas. Moreover these were matters of the so-called negative population policy, things which were foreign to me, to my whole training which I had obtained from Professor Lenz. In the Race and Settlement office I was concerned only with the positive matters. Sometimes I tried to present Professor Lenz's views to Grawitz, but I soon gave that up because he said that Professor Lenz was an academic man and refused to accept his ideas. We never talked about those things.
Q You are further charged with further responsibility in typhus experiments; do you know that Buchenwald inmates were infected with typhus baccilus quite intentionally?
A No, that was unknown to me.
Q Did you know that Ding was active in Buchenwald?
A Yes, I knew that. I knew that there was a Hygiene Institute in Buchenwald at which Ding was working.
Q What do you know of Ding's activity in Buchenwald?
A I do not know any of the details of this work, but I learned once that he was producing typhus serum, or a vaccine against typhus, according to a new process, which quantitatively had greater results.
Q Did you know Ding?
A Yes, I met him frequently in Berlin at the office, and a few times I talked to him briefly.
Q What did you talk about?
A I don't remember, unimportant things. Ding was a cheerful person, and we exchanged greetings and discussed unimportant matters briefly.
I saw him only when he was leaving Grawitz. I met him in the hall.
Q How often was he with Grawitz?
A I can't say exactly. I myself saw him there three or four times.
Q Did Ding not talk to you about his typhus experiments?
A No, never.
Q. You signed a report about typhus by Di************** Number No-582, is Exhibit 286, with your own************** Does the signature of this letter mean?
A. You said "a report." this was not a report. It was not a report on experiments. Otherwise it would have had a return address, a date; it would have had the address of the addressee and at the end there would have been a signature, and besides that, it would, no doubt, have been marked "secret". This was not the case. It was quite obviously the manuscript of a scientific publication. Such manuscripts had to have two stamps, one from the superior medical agency that there were no objections to the publication, and, secondly, there had to be a censorship stamp from a propaganda agency.
Q. How did this publication reach you?
A. I cannot say. Certainly it did not reach me directly. Probably Ding sent it to Mrugowsky. In any case, Mrugowsky had seen it beforehand since he was the specialist in this field and since the work had originated from his institute. Then Mrugowsky made a notation that there were no scientific objections to publication and sent it on to Grawitz, and Grawitz read it and then, no doubt, Grawitz gave it to me saying that the paper could be published and I should put the stamp on it. Then the stamp of the counterintelligence office in the SS Operational Main Office was put on it and then the paper was sent back to Mrugowsky who passed it on to Ding.
Q. Those publications which are mentioned here, did you read these?
A. I read it here, and I determined that I had definitely not read it before. I am sure I read only the summary, as one usually reads scientific articles in which is not particularly interested.
I am not a specialist. I have no experience in the field of typhus. I was not interested in the details and was not able to evaluate them correctly.
Q. Did you have the permanent order or assignment to stamp all scientific publications?
A. No, not in general, but it happened that Grawitz gave papers to me to stamp.
Q. Were you a member of a special committee for typhus and virus research which was under the leadership of Ding?
A. No, I do not know of any such committee. I was not a member of any such committee, and in view of my complete lack of qualifications, I cannot see why I should have been put on any such committee if it had existed.
Q. In this connection, coming back to the evidence for the Defendant Handloser, especially to the affidavit of the Defendant Poppendick, HA-27, Handloser Exhibit No. 12, which is on page 17 of the Document Book. Helmut Poppendick, I do not intend to read anything from that. The witness, Balachowsky, in his affidavit 448 maintains -this is Exhibit for the Prosecution 291, English Document Book 12, page 60 -- that you were Obergruppenfuehrer. Is that correct?
A. No, I never reached the rank of a general. The mentioning of my name in this context must be a mistake. Balachowsky got his information from Kogon and he must have confused the name.
Q. Did you hear the lecture by Ding about typhus at the conference of consulting Army physicians in the year 1943? This is the same lecture, surely, to which Dr. Rose took objection.
A. No, I did not hear Ding, and I was not present at any lectures of the hygiene section at these meetings.
Q. The witness, Kogon, said when asked by the Defense that no reports about typhus experiments were submitted to Poppendick. This is in the English records, page 1266, German records, 1288. No furthermore says at the examination by the Prosecution, page 1288, English book, German book, 1307, that he had sent reports to Grawitz, and Poppendick received a copy of this report. There is a disagreement apparently between these two statements. What have you to say to this?
A. I can only declare that I had nothing to do with typhus experiments or reports on them When asked by Dr. Doerr, Kogon answered that no report was sent to me. His second contradictory statement which he made about half an hour later I can explain by the question asked by the Prosecution. Kogon was asked whether reports were sent to Grawitz. Kogon answered "yes", and probably the Prosecution showed him the records, and he knew that I belonged to Grawitz's staff, so that in answer to the next question -- and Poppendick received a copy -- he also answered "yes". I cannot understand why within a short time he could make two directly contradictory statements. In answer to the first clear question as to whether I received reports on typhus, he said "no".
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, it is respectfully requested Defense Counsel state the page number on which these contradictory statements of Kogon's appear in the record.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel's request is reasonable. Will Counsel for the Defendant furnish Counsel with the page numbers where these statements may be found?
DR. BOEHM: I did that already, and it was here a matter of record on page 1266 and the German record on 1288, and in the reexamination by the Prosecution it was the English record, 1288, and the German one was 1307.
At this opportunity I should like to come to the letter and to mention it here, a letter which I have already mentioned in connection with Klauberg. It is in German Document Book 6, Document NO-214, page 48. This is a letter from Grawitz to Himmler which refers to Klauberg.
BY DR. BOEHM:
Q. In connection with what has been said, I would like to ask you: Did you have any connection at all with typhus research or other diseases which made it possible for you to recognize that criminal experiments in these fields had been made?
A. No.
Q. You are, furthermore, charged by the Prosecution with responsibility in experiments with poisons. Did you ever visit the concentration camp Buchenwald in which experiments with poisons were supposedly made, according to the statements of the witness, Kogon, in December, 1943, until October 1944?
A. I never entered the concentration camp Buchenwald.
Q. Did you not in any way receive knowledge either orally or by writing of these experiments with poisons?
A. No, I received no knowledge of them.
Q. Furthermore, it was stated by the Prosecution that a special experiment was made by the Reich Criminal Police Office in September, 1944, in which five persons were supposed to have taken part. These were experiments with aconitin. Did you know anything about this letter of Mrugowsky to the Criminal Technical Institute, or did you know anything about any other letters? This letter was document number 201, Prosecution Exhibit 290.
A. I know nothing about this letter of Mrugowsky's, and I did not see any other correspondence about it.
Q. About all this matter you only received knowledge after your arrival in Nurnberg, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Also, you are charged with responsibility in experiments with incendiary bombs. Did you know anything about any experiments in Buchenwald on human beings in which incendiary bombs were used?
A. No, I did not.
Q. The witness, Kogon, in this connection spoke of an experimental ward 5. Was there a special office in the office of the Reichsarzt in which such experiments were planned and approved?
A. I know of no such office. I do not know what kind of work this office would have had to do. Approximately Thirty-five letters which refer to Grawitz, Grawitz no doubt answered or passed on personally.
Q. In your opinion, witness, what was this experimental station 5 in Leipzig which supposedly had the authority for experimentation in concentration camps which was mentioned by Kogon?
A. This is quite obviously confusion with the so-called research section V, Professor von Kennel. That is the initial of his name. This was located in Leipzig.
Q. What do you know about von Kennel and his activity?
A. Professor von Kennel was the rector of the skin clinic of the University of Leipzig. Besides that he was one of the best-known specialists for the development of now medicines in the so-called sulfonamide series.
Q. What did von Kennel have to do with this experimental station 5?
A. For years at his clinic he had a special research laboratory, to so-called research section V, and in those chemical laboratories he carried on research on sulfonamides in addition to his work as clinic.
Q. Was he in any connection with the SS?
A. As far as I know, he received financial support from the Waffen-SS during the last years of the War. As far as organization is concerned, however, his work were not incorporated in the SS.
Q. Do you know whether this research department had any connection with concentration camps?
A. If I remember correctly, he received animals from the hygiene institute at Buchenwald. These animals were very difficult to obtain during the War; probably Professor von Kennel corresponded with Ding or the hygiene institute on this matter, and Kogon probably saw this correspondence and saw the letterhead "Research Section V", but he didn't know what it was, and he read it as "Research Section" Roman numeral V, and then he thought that was an experimental station roman Number V of which he talked so much here.
Q. Can you find an explanation why Kogon connects you with this office?
A. As far as I recall, I once sent a letter to Ding on behalf of Grawitz, and I passed on von Kennel's request for experimental animals. On the basis of such harmless letters, Kogon probably confused these things. He thought that I was the man in charge of all such experiments.
DR. BOEHM: Document HPO-13 in Document Book Helmut Poppendick, page 35, contains the corresponding excerpt from this book. I offer this document as Poppendick Exhibit No. 6. Kogon writes in his book "The SS State" you had signed as responsible for this department in which the experiments were carried out.
On the witness stand Kogon did not maintain this, and what is your opinion?
A I can only repeat that I was not responsible for research section V of Professor von Kennel nor for any alleged research section under the Reichsarzt, that I had no responsibility in those connections.
Q With the exception of your relation to the supply of experimental animals, you had nothing to do with this experimental stationed, did you?
A No, I cannot remember anything else.
Q Also not with incendiary bomb experiments?
A No.
DR. BOEHM: Explaining this department V, in connection with this I submit this document which is an affidavit by Dr. Kimmig, HP-8 and also HP-9, which is an affidavit by Professor von Kennel. Both of these documents are on page 22 and 24 of the document book Poppendick. I offer them as Poppendick Exhibits No. 7 and 8, and I would like to read these documents. Poppendick Exhibit No. 7, I quote:-
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor, pardon me for interrupting. I have no objections to these two affidavits, but I wish to request the Secretary-General to bring to court tomorrow the original exhibits of Document numbers NO-579, NO-582 and NO-1300.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note the request of the Counsel for the Prosecution.
MR. HARDY: Those are the original exhibits.
THE PRESIDENT: The original exhibits or the original documents?
MR. HARDY: The original documents.
THE PRESIDENT: The original documents to court to morrow morning.
DR. BOEHM: I shall now read Exhibit Poppendick No. 7:
"I was an employee at the Schering Works A. G. in Berlin-Charlottenburg since the year 1935 and was at the same time a co-worker of Professor von Kennel who was at that time Senior Physician (Oberarzt) at the Municipal Hospital Schwabing, Munich. Professor von Kennel worked on sulfonamide research, and I worked under him as a chemical co-worker. Medical science owes to him the research of the sulfadiozole group whose most efficacious compound was Globucid which was produced by the Schering Works.
"From 1937 until 1943 Professor von Kennel was director of the University Clinic for Skin and Venereal Diseases in Kiel and after that in Leipzig in the same capacity.
"He finally directed in Leipzig a chemo-therapeutic department called Research Department V (not Roman V but "V") which was financially supported by the SS. He worked for economic independence from industry and intended his research institute to be taken over the state. He had the assurance of the SS that he would remain a completely free and independent research worker. He accordingly directed his research department V -- for von Kennel -- on his own responsibility. In scientific matters even the Reich Physician-SS and Police Dr. Grawitz could give him no orders, nor did he do so.
"There is no doubt that the chief of the personal office of the Reich Physician-SS and Police, Helmut Poppendick, was not responsible for the activities of this research department V. I know that Professor von Kennel received animals for experiments, white mice, for his laboratory in Leipzig from Buchenwald, and that there was an exchange of correspondence regarding this.
I remember a talk with Professor von Kennel in the course of which we discussed the hormone research of a Danish SS physician. This doctor who worked on the implantation of hormone crystals never worked with Professor von Kennel or his research department V.
"The research department of Professor von Kennel never as far as I know had anything to do with experiments on typhus and incendiary bombs; the sole purpose of this department was research on sulfonamides and during the last few years of the War research on penicillin."
I shall also read Document Exhibit No. 8:
"I, Professor Dr. Med. Josef von Kennel, born 9 August 1897 in Munich, residence: Bad Homburg vor der Hoehe, Gymnasiumstrasse 14, have been advised that I will be liable to punishment if I make a false affidavit. I declare under oath that my statements are true and were made in order to be submitted as evidence to Military Tribunal I in the Palace of Justice in Nurnberg, Germany.
"After World War I, I studied medicine. Having finished my specialized studies as a specialist on skin and venereal diseases, I occupied myself already at an early date with chemotherapeutic research. In 1928 I worked with Dr. Feldt of the Schering Works A. G., Berlin, on the gold preparation Solganal-B-oleosum. In 1932 I received for this work my degree of doctor habil. The beginning of my research work V (von Kennel) dates back to this time. At that time I renounced all personal financial participation in the large-scale manufacture of the above-named preparation by the firm of Schering, rather I contented myself with a chemist and an assistant for my research work.
My first chemist in my research department V was Dr. Michael, a Jew, who was married to an English woman. In 1933 I helped him to emigrate to England. My next chemical collaborator was Dr. Kimmig. In 1937 I became ordinary professor at the University of Kiel and director of the University dermatology clinic. The invention of the sulfonamide Globucid by Kimmig and me dates back to that time, the production of which by the firm of Schering has only now been authorized again by the English occupation authorities for the Schering firm.
"Together with Kimmig and Lemke there appeared the first German work on penicillin in the Clinical Weekly (Klinische Wochenschrift) (1942/1943). With the support of the firm of Schering, the research department V's personnel had meanwhile increased greatly. I had my own research account V for the authorized research expenditures.
"In 1943 I was summoned by letter to report to the medical office of the Waffen-SS. I was asked there to place myself at the disposal of the Waffen-SS as consultant specialist for venereal diseases with chemotherapy. After some objections on my part, I finally agreed after I had been expressly assured of my absolute civilian independence. For my work I was promised financial support especially in the form of chemicals.
"On 1 April 1943 I received a summons to the University of Leipzig and could move my Kiel research department there. By financial and material support from the Waffen-SS we were able to keep the clinic, which was heavily damaged by bombs, in a workable condition. In 1943 I received the honorary rank of Sturmbannfuehrer in the Waffen-SS in common with the other consultant physicians of other troop units. Before this I had no connection with any organization of the NSDAP, apart from my membership from 1933 on (without office).
"An excerpt from the book 'The SS State' (Der SS-Staat) by Eugen Kogon, as well as his testimony before Military Tribunal I regarding the experimental station in Leipzig, has been submitted to me, and from my own knowledge I can state the following thereto:
"In Leipzig there was no experimental station Roman 'V'. There was only a research department V (Vonkennel), which had gone with me from Munich via Kiel to Leipzig and which was financially supported by the firm of Schering in respect of my inventions.
"Only in 1943 did this research department receive certain financial and material assistance from the Waffen SS as well. This research department was exclusively under my orders. It was a purely civilian university institution. Not one single worker was a member of the SS. In fact, I employed a Catholic priest as my private secretary whom the Gestapo intended to send to Buchenwald, and an unlicensed half-Jewish woman doctor was my private assistant.
"The research department V (Vonkennel) was exclusively concerned with chemotherapeutic problems (sulfonamides, penicillin, lice powder, etc.). All the works of this research department were published in official medical weeklies under the heading 'By the Working Community of the Leipzig, or Kiel, Dermatology Clinic, director: Professor Vonkennel'.
"This department never had anything to do with the hormone experiments of Dr. Vaernet, with typhus, or with experiments concerning burns. I personally only once heard of Dr. Vaernet, that he was in Berlin seeking the cooperation of the pharmaceutical industry. The experiments mentioned in the book of Dr. Kogon are entirely unknown to me.
"Viewed from a medical expert's point of view, the implantation of synthetic hormones in the form of crystals or tablets into the abdominal cover represents an internationally recognized method which has already proved effective.
"Dr. Grawitz, the Reich Physician SS and Police, visited my clinic only once, after the heavy air raid in December 1944. I received from him no directives whatsoever in scientific respects or in regard to working methods.
"Mr. Poppendick had nothing whatever to do with my research department, nor did he ever try to interfere in themes or methods.
"The assertion made in Dr. Kogon's book that Poppendick was authorized to sign for the experimental department is entirely unfounded."
That is the end of my quotation. The affidavit is signed and certified, and therefore correct.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has received from Captain Charles J. Roska, Medical Corps, a written statement that the defendant Oberheuser should be excused from attendance at this afternoon's session. This has been accomplished and the certificate will be filed for the record.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 9 April 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 9 April 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.
Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court room.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you ascertain if the defendants are all present in the court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all defendants are present with the exception of the Defendant Oberheuser, absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal having received a certificate from the prison doctor to the effect that Defendant Oberheuser is unable to appear in court today, she will be excused from attendance for this day, it appearing that her interests will not be jeopardized by her absence.
The Secretary-General will file the certificate from the prison physician.
Counsel may proceed.
HELMUT POPPENDICK - Resumed
DR. BOEHM (Counsel for the Defendant Poppendick): Mr. President, I should like to continue in my interrogation of the witness Poppendick.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. BOEHM:
Q Regarding the incendiary bomb experiments on 5 January 1944, in Ding's diary, No 265, Prosecution Exhibit 12, page 48 in the English Document Book entry according to which the minutes of these experiment were sent to the Reichsarzt-SS to be forwarded to the Madausworks. The witness Kogon believed that he read that these reports went to you.
Did you ever see such a report?
A No, at least I cannot recall ever having seen such a report with pictures. I certainly should have noticed the pictures.
Q. Was it customary for experimental reports to be sent to you?
A No, such reports were sent direct to the Reichs physician. Correspondence with staff members in such matters was principally forbidden. If despite that such a case did arise, namely, if someone because he didn't know any better sent such a report to someone who shouldn't receive it, then the report would nevertheless still have gone to the Reichs physician.
Q Did you know the Madaus Works?
AAs I have already said, I knew the name only from medical periodicals.
Q Do you know Dr. Koch?
A No.
DR. BOEHM: In connection with this question, I shall subsequently submit Dr. Koch's affidavit which arrived within the past days as evidence for Dr. Mrugowsky, in which Dr. Koch says that he did not know Poppendick that no correspondence was sent through Poppendick to him, or to the Madaus Works.
BY DR. BOEHM:
Q Did you know the Higher SS and Police Leader Woyrsch who was stationed in Dresden?
A I only knew his name.
Q Did you attend any conferences at which there was discussion of experiments with the drug R 17?
A No.
Q Do you know the drug R 17 at all?
A No, I did not know about it until this trial.
Q Did you have anything to do with the taking of the contents of the incendiary bombs Buchenwald or did you know of this?
A No, not that either.
Q In other words, you had no connection with the planning or direction of incendiary experiments described by the prosecution nor were you the competent expert whose job it was to concern himself with this whole question?
A No.
DR. BOEHM: I submit now HPO 7, an affidavit of Dr. Dirchert, in this connection, which is on page 18 of the document Poppendick book. I submit it as Poppendick Exhibit No. 9. At the moment I shall road point 2 of this affidavit. I quote:
2. Treatment of phosphorus burns with "R 17".:
The dropping of phosphorus incendiary bombs made it necessary to find the appropriate means for its treatment. Since the usual copper sulfate solution did not show satisfactory results, the firm of Dr. Madaus of Dresden sought another medium to dissolve phosphorus. They found this in a liquid which they manufactured and called "R 17" (carbon tetrachloride). The effectiveness of R 17 was proved by the firm of Dr. Madaus through the experiments on rabbits.
After those rabbit experiments were concluded Dr. Madaus asked the Higher SS and Police Leader v. Woyrsch of Dresden to watch these experiments. Since my emergency office was at the premises of Gruppenfuehrer v. Woyrsch, he asked me to come along to the firm of Madaus in my capacity as a physician and to observe these experiments. That was in the fall of 1943. In accordance with the request of Gruppenfuehrer v. Woyrsch and the firm of Madaus, I reported to the Reich Physician SS and Police on the results in the treatment of phosphorus burns found by the firm of Madaus; I suggested to him to include the product R 17 in the first-aid kits for air-raid precautions. Grawitz promised an investigation. For this purpose, some time later, he sent Dr. Ding, in his capacity as hygienist, to Dresden and ordered me to arrange for Ding to go to the Madaus firm and see the results with the drug R 17 obtained by that firm. I did so. Ding came to Dresden and in my presence watched the experiments mentioned.
He declared later that he would investigate the efficacy of that preparation, also on rabbits, in Buchenwald, upon orders of the Reich Physician SS. He asked that the firm Madaus should place the preparation R 17 at his disposal. Immediately after the inspection of the firm of Madaus he left Dresden again.
It is also know to me that Dr. Ding had requested the office of the Higher SS and Police Leader to supply him with the contents of an English incendiary bomb; this request was, as far as I know, filled by the Police President of Leipzig. Dr. Ding sent for the drug and the incendiary bomb.
It is also known to me that Ding made a report about his experiments; I know this, because Ding inquired several times at my office in Dresden, both in writing and by telephone, whether the report was there, since he could not find it. It was supposed to be a report with illustrations. Whether the report went through my office, I do not know, as I used to be in Dresden only one day each week. At the time when Ding was looking for the report, it was not in my office. I presume therefore that he sent it directly to the firm of Madaus, since they were interested in his investigations.