Thereupon I asked him whether he was aware of the fact that these Dutchmen did not know any compulsion for the vaccination against pox as we knew it in Germany, and particularly that they did not know the conception of the three vaccinations during a certain proscribed age period, and that, therefore, Dutchmen weren't as completely protected against pox as Germans were. In theory, therefore, at least it had to be expected that once pox were being introduced from outside, a danger which existed at all times when members of so many nations are crammed to ether, then a pox epidemic would occur.
Loehning was most perturbed about this. He hadn't known these facts; and he wanted to have all his camps vaccinated against pox immediately. I told him that that was not at all a necessity. In Germany through vaccine producers under state control we had the pox vaccine at our disposal at all times. So I said that there was sufficient time to carry out such a complete vaccination once the first case of pox occurred but that I thought that it was an exaggerated precaution if hundreds of thousands of people would be vaccinated against pox at such a point.
At the same time Loehning told me, however, that Russian prisoners of war had also arrived at Buchenwald and at other camps. Here we were concerned with a different type of danger because at that time, in the Spring of 1943, there were two prisoner of war camps in the Southern Ukraine where cholera had broken out, so that the possibility existed that through these Russian prisoners of war cholera might be spread and be brought into concentration camps in this manner.
In this case, therefore, immediate action was essential. I recommended to him, therefore, apart from anti-typhoids and para-typhoids, vaccines which had been the custom for a long time, the introduction of vaccinations against cholera in those camps which contained Russian prisoners.
Loehning subsequently complained about all the vaccinations which I considered essential. He thought that this was difficult to realize in practice; but I told him, "You have to do something for the protection of your prisoners in any case; otherwise you'd become guilty of a very considerable omission." I also told him that for about six months we in the waffen SS had found a different method of carrying out such vaccinations; and I showed him this vaccination plan which we had used for tens of thousands of people in Waffen-SS with the best of success and without any indigestibility.
In order to simplify vaccinations against various bacilli one vaccine, for instance, contained bacilli against four different tests. That was the so-called tetra vaccine which had already become well-known from the previous war and which now when cholera appeared in the Southern Ukraine, though in a slightly changed and improved shape, was once again introduced. This vaccine had been developed and tried out on soldiers through one of my associates; and my associate Dötzer reported about this during a consultation conference. The entire German armed forces were vaccinated with this vaccine. In fact, many millions of people, without any incidence, and with the Lest of success.
These same vaccines were also used for protective vaccinations in concentration camps. Subsequently in this vaccination plan we introduced vaccinations, first of all, against pox, secondly, against typhoid and paratyphoid A and B, and cholera. These vaccinations were the rule for the entire German armed forces. Furthermore, every member of the Waffen-SS was vaccinated against typhus and, because we had much diphtheria in home stations, also against diphtheria.
Loehning asked me whether he ought ot vaccinate against diphtheria because, of course, occasionally he too had accumulations of diphtheria incidence in concentration camps. I told him that this was not necessary since the average age of concentration camp prisoners was higher than that of the recruits of the Waffen SS and since, therefore, no more measures against diphtheria were necessary.
Q. This vaccination plan which was carried out on forty-five people, with commercial vaccines, was that to be considered as an experiment?
A. It has been described as a large scale experiment. I am not quite sure what Ding meant by the word "grosse versuche," "large experiment", because it was carried out on forty-five people. A few pages before this very entry in the diary he is talking about another series of experiments with typhus on 145 people. If you carry out vaccinations on forty-five people, then that is not a large-scale experiment.
Q. Well, is this to be considered as an experiment?
A. That isn't an experiment under any circumstances because there is nothing in this case which had to be experimented with. Digestibility was known for a long period in the case of millions of people, both at home and abroad. I believe that here it is language which is causing us difficulties because in Germany we have only one word for something which is described as "versuche," "experiment"; and even in the case of the introduction of a new drug, new medical supplies to the troops, we talk about "truppen versuche," "troop experiments." These are not experiments in the sense of the word "experiments," the outcome of which is unknown at the outset.
It is a check-up, an examination. So that one ought to draw this dividing line in this case between check-up, examination, in the case of vaccination because that most certainly is not an experiment.
Q. But then why did you give the advice that in spite of that not the entire camp should be vaccinated throughout but that first of all compatibility should be checked by means of a small group?
A. I knew that the average age of concentration camp prisoners was higher than that of troops and that their condition of nourishment was worse. Consequently, I recommended to Dr. Loehning that before vaccinating hundreds of thousands of people he first of all satisfy himself as to the digestibility of these vaccines under these special conditions in concentration camps. That was an act of extra precaution. We German doctors, before such large scale application of vaccine is to take place, love first of all to try the same thing on a smaller number of similar people in order to, as we call it, get check of such vaccines.
Q. Please look at the last line on Page 13 of Ding's Diary. There is mention of a repeated vaccination against pox. after three months. Is that customary?
A. No, that is not a custom. You only vaccinate once against pox; but I would assume that we are here concerned with an error on the entry since previously he is talking about diphtheria. During diphtheria vaccinations, a great deal of experience with children was collected but little experience in the case of adults, something which has occurred to other medical men, too, because the necessity to vaccinate against diphtheria would generally speaking not be in existence in the case of adults. It was seen that diphtheria vaccine reactions in the case of adults are more violent than in the case of children; and therefore a larger interval is introduced between two vaccinations which are necessary against diphtheria, in the case of a child the interval is twentyeight days, on other words, a month. I would assume that here we are concerned with the second diphtheria vaccination which was to be carried out after three months and not, therefore, a pox vaccination.
DR. FLEMMING: In this connection I submit to the Tribunal Document Mrugowsky 17-A. It is on Page 145. I offer it in evidence as Mrugowsky Exhibit Number 41. It is an affidavit from Director Demnitz; and I sub mit it for the information of the Tribunal without reading from it.
At the same time I offer in evidence Document Mrugowsky Number 18, on Page 148. I offer this in evidence as Exhibit Mrugowsky 42. I should like to read from it briefly as follows:
"Vaccines against typhoid and parathyphoid fever, also cholera. In the conditions described (crowding of many thousands of human beings of many nationalities into the concentration camp) the presence of numerous bacilli carriers and the constant danger of a typhoid or paratyphoid epidemic had to be reckoned with among the inmates of the camp. Thus inoculation was a necessary preventive health measure. The pleasing fact that cases of these diseases did not occur in large numbers in the camps is probably due to this inoculation. When Russian prisoners of war too entered the concentration camps at the same time as cholera broke out among Russian prisoners of war in the Ukraine and were in closest contact with the other prisoners, there also existed in my opinion a danger of cholera, so that inoculation against cholera, too, became necessary as a preventive health measure.
"The use of vaccines manufactured by the Behring Works (typhoid, paratyphoid, vaccine T.A.B., and the so-called tetra vaccine, consisting of dead typhoid, paratyphoid A and B bacilli and dead cholera vibriones) was correct for these inoculations. The omission of such inoculations in the conditions described would probably have been termed a mistake (professional slip) by most doctors, bacteriologists, and hygienists."
Then I omit part of this document and read the last three lines of it: "Its protective value is recognized by the overwhelming number of specialists. The exact course, the tolerance of persons in regard to these inoculations and the effect of these inoculations has been known now for a long time; and therefore it is impossible to speak of these inoculations as 'experiments'".
The passage numbered VIII will not be read by me. It confirms Mrugowsky's testimony. Equally, Paragraph IX, Diphtheria, concerns Mrugowsky's testimony: and I shall only read from Paragraph 2, approxi mately the center.
"Since 1930 many millions of children and a lesser number of grownups in many countries have been inoculated with these Absorbat vaccines. Their harmlessness and their effect, namely on children, is generally known in medical circles."
The last line at the bottom in the German: "It must be added, however, that the Absorbat used neither contained living nor dead diphtheria bacilli but only bacilli which had been deprived of their poison by treatment with Formol."
Then in the final paragraph: "The vaccinations prescribed were not experiments but regular inoculations internationally recognized, such as are undertaken in all civilized and enlightened countries as a protection against a state of epidemic."
This is an affidavit from Professor Dold, Freiburg, who is one of the greatest experts in this sphere.
Q. During experimental vaccinations by Dr. Ding, did he use new vaccines which had not been tried out?
A. No, these were commercial vaccines which had also been used in the armed forces and for the civilian population as well as the Waffen SS.
Q. Subsequent to the experimental inoculations by Dr. Ding or connected therewith, was there any occasion when experimental vaccinations on the vaccinated persons were carried out?
A. Neither in connection with such protective vaccinations nor any other affections was any infection carried out. In all these cases we are concerned with the first phase of an inoculation program for all concentration camp inmates and for their protection against disease.
DR. FLEMMING: I now submit to the Tribunal Document Mrugowsky Number 87, Page 226. This is an extract from the Neue Zeitung, dated 7 March 1947, Page 2. I offer this extract as Mrugowsky Exhibit Number 43. I submit it only for your information. It will draw your attention to the fact that 78 million Japanese are at present being vaccinated against pox and yellow fever. 5182
Q. Well then who ordered these various experiments which we have just discussed?
A. You mean the typhus experiments?
Q. I mean ail the experiments?
A. The experiments of Dr. Ding occurred at the end of 1941 through the Collective Order given by Himmler. The aim was that all existing vaccines against typhus should be checked for their effectiveness on human beings. Since this comprehensive order was in existence from the beginning, the detailing of prisoners had to be settled from case to case. It was, as I emphasized, repeatedly, that at the beginning they were detailed through the administrative of the concentration camps, but later from the Reich Criminal police Department in this central department. Details regarding the channels of the orders are not known to me.
Q. Do you remember that the Prosecution submitted the document No. 1190, Prosecution's Exhibit No, 321, which contains a list of prisoners who were furnished the Reich Criminal Police Office for the purpose of experiments. Do you remember this list?
A. Yes, I know of it from the trial here.
Q. Did you request these inmates from the Reich Criminal Police Office or did you have any correspondence with the Reich Criminal Police Office in that matter?
A. No.
Q. In that case you never gob in contact with the Reich Criminal police Office for the furnishing of persons for these experiments?
A. No.
Q. Do you know that Kogen asserted that you suddenly could not have exercised any influence on the furnishing of these inmates, but that there was a connection to the Reich Criminal Police Office, and to their furnishing of the inmates, and that you were the connecting link there. Could you say something on that?
A. This statement is wrong. I neither had any correspondence with the Reich Criminal Police Office on that matter, nor do I know Kriminalrat Otto, who was the person in charge of the concentration camp inmates, and in the end that Ding and Grawitz only told me that criminals were used for these experiments.
The fact that since the end, finally of 1933, the furnishing of these inmates was centrally done through the office of the aid in Berlin was the proof to me that actually only criminal prisoners were used for the experiments. Only criminal persons could be dealt with at the Reich Criminal Police Office, where the political inmates were subordinate to the Political Police,that is, the Gestape; these two offices had nothing to do with one another.
Q. How often were you at Buchenwald?
A. About three times.
Q. What did you do there?
A. Upon my arrival I went to the camp commander in order to report to him. That was customary procedure, and I was then received by the Dr. Ding, who was called to his office byway of telephone. Only by a commandant could a person be accompanied and could I pass through the camp. I then went with him to Block 50, and then there we passed on the questions of vaccine production occurring in detail. I entered Buchenwald for the first time in the Fall of 1943, that is, during the war. It is possible, that that was the 3rd of September, as it is maintained in Ding's report. During my first visit, I entered Block 46, too, but I already stated yesterday that at that time there was no experiment with infection carried out, and that I only saw a few patients there who had fallen ill spontaneously. I spoke to them there, and I was of the opinion that the infection experiments had stopped.
Q. Witness, Kogen and Kirchheimer have testified that your visit in Block 46 only lasted for half an hour, is that correct?
A. At the most it lasted for half an hour.
Q. You were just saying that you only entered Block 46 at this time. Kogen and Kirchheimer on the other hand testified that you were there on.
two or three occasions, and on every occasion visited Block 46, was that a correct situation?
A. That is not true, but it can easily be clarified. Both made the statement since they were in Block 50, and it is a fact that my arrival was registered, and announced at Block 46, and that I actually did not go there, out that we visited what was called Little Camp, which was behind Block 46. On that occasion I did not enter Block 46, but I have, I think, I stated the reason for that time.
Q. Could one observe Block 46 from Block 50 where Kogan and Kirchheimer were?
A. No, an other block was in between there, if I remember correctly.
Q. Wallachowsky maintained that when visiting Little Camp you saw the one that was death block, is that correct?
A. No, that is not true. I don't know of any such institution that existed. That is not established that such an institution did exist, and I still don't know of it today.
JUDGE SEBRING: Dr. Flemming, the Tribunal would like to know something about the size of these blacks, how large are they in area, what is their composition, and what is their number - how many people were in those blocks particularly about Block 46 and block 50.
DR. FLEMMING: Yes, surely. You heard the question, would you please answer it, witness?
THE WITNESS: The Camp Buchenwald consisted generally of wooden barracks. There were a few stone buildings there, which had two floors. I estimate that they were about fifteen meters long. If they were filled with people, a considerable amount of persons could be housed there. It was a question of how one placed his bed, whether one has a bed, which were on two or three floors, and that, of course, is an open question. Block 50 had no housing facilities. It was only a laboratory. The inmates who worked there were housed in an adjoining room. Block 46 was a hospital and it had better housing facilities than any other of the blocks of the camp. If I recall from my single visit there, there was only one level of beds, there, that is, one row of beds, was there, singly.
I did not see any other block at that time, and I therefore did not know how many rooms it contained. I don't believe that in neither building of the blocks, that patients in any one, could house there more than approximately one-hundred. That, however, is a more estimation on my part, and I believe that Dr. Hoven could tell more, or will be able to tell you more about it.
In the wooden barracks of the camp the inmates were much closer together, especially unfavorable housing facilities were any way near Little Camp; that was the reason why I was asked by Ding to inspect the camp. This led to a report by me which I sent to Chief of the Supreme Building Offices of the SS. I communicated my urgent request to re-organize the building in Buchenwald in order to help that situation. In that camp the inmates were very close together, and were definitely overcrowded.
Q. With reference to Block 46 would you consider that Dr. Morgen's statement was correct, that Block 46 was furniched just as any modern army hospital and that patients were cared for as they would be cared for in any army hospital?
A. The impression which I gained after my short visit there was extremely favorable. The distance from one bed to another was about one meter and a half, that is the customary distance as it is to be found in hospitals. Beds were covered with white lines; on the tables there were table cloths; and I had a very favorable impression in that regard.
Q. How about the furnishings in Block 50? What were the work conditions there?
A. Block 50 was modernly equipped laboratory. It had all the special equipment which could be required. The walls of the laboratory were painted and there was running cold and warm water. The equipment had electrical current as is the case in every well furnished institution. The inmates who were employed there had numerous liberties. In particular it was not necessary for thorn to attend the camp roll calls. Because of danger of infection they received additional nourishment and not one member of Block 50 who was examined here has asserted that he personally fared badly. They were well nourished and had any literature at their disposal they desired and I know that literature of a professional nature, as well as fiction, was sent to them from the university library at Jena.
Q. Were the questions of the Tribunal answered?
JUDGE SEBRING: Yes.
Q. You were just saying that the inmates were well nourished. In that connection I want to point out to you that Kogon testified that the inmates working in Block 50, because of hunger, had prepared the rabbits used for experiments for eating. Is that correct?
A. I am convinced that this testimony is correct and there is really nothing to it. The rabbits are infected starting from the nose; there is only an inflammation in the lung to be registered but never a general infection of the animal. The lung us taken out in order to be used for the production of vaccine. The carrier of typhus reacts very quickly to temperature. By mere boiling every bacteria is killed with absolute certainty. If the meat of that rabbit is thoroughly boiled there is not the least danger of any infection. I may point out that in all countries where there is food legislation and food rationing meat of animals who fell ill of tuberculosis is always admissible for human consumption. That is true of a number of other illnesses.
Q. Thank you. That is sufficient. When did the delivery of vaccines from Buchenwald start?
A. The production started in August 1943, when the first preparations were made. The real large-scale production started at the end of 1943.
Q. What were the amounts of vaccine produced monthly?
A. On the average 30 to 50 and up to 50 liters were produced.
Q. How many portions of vaccinations would you say that was?
A. 50 liters of vaccine represent 25,000 portions.
Q. 50 liters, 25,000 portions. That means that about 25,000 portions of vaccine were delivered monthly?
A. That is right.
Q. Kogon testifies that the inmates sabotaged the production of vaccine and only produced a good vaccine for themselves, that was a small circle, but otherwise produced a product which was not harmful but was not useful either. What do you know about that?
A. This is one of the most peculiar remarks I heard here. If a vaccine is being produced it is being done for the purpose of protecting people in danger against illness and death.
Especially in the case of concentration camp inmates it had to be known how extensive the typhus danger was, not only in the camps but also in the army and the throughout Germany. Especially in Block 50 there were a number of inmates who were transferred from Auschwitz to Buchenwald since they were specialists and had to work there. Auschwitz was one of the largest typhus infected places which we had in Europe. We had greatest difficulties to become master of this epidemic. These typhus specialists who came to Buchenwald-and it is not to be assumed that they did not realize the extensive danger of typhus-were told repeatedly that the reason for the production of vaccines was this danger of typhus. If they now assert that they sabotaged the production of vaccine and produced a preparation which while not harmful was not useful in any way, this, in my opinion, represents an attitude which has nothing to do with the concepts of humanity as is being expressed by the so gentlemen today.
Q. Kogon gave the reason for this sabotaging that one of the specialists in Block 50 had found out that the viruses contained in that vaccine were not Rickettsia Prowazekia but other viruses. Would you please shortly state your opinion whether Rickettsia Prowazekia is recognizable or easily changeable?
A. This observation of Mr. Fleck is quite understandable. There is hardly one bacteria in the field of bacteriology which is as changeable in its exterior for as the typhus virus. Herr Fleck in Cracow and Lemberg was dealing with Rickettsia that were bred in the louse and they naturally looked much different than the Rickettsia which were bred in animal lungs. Those differences are set down repeatedly in literature and it is therefore to be understood quite easily. I should like to revert to the production of the vaccine itself and I must say that we had two types of vaccine at our disposal.
From the point of effectiveness they did not differ but they only differed because of the fact that the electricity worms in Weimar had been damaged because of air attacks and we therefore had no electrical current at our disposal in Buchenwald. That is why our refrigerators discontinued working. Now if vaccine is kept too warm it changes its color but really does nothing to the effectiveness or tolerance. It is only a question of exterior appearance. Dr. Ding designated especially that vaccine which became discolored and failed to designate in any particular way the other kind of vaccine. This, perhaps, may be the reason why two different types of vaccines are being discussed. However, there was no difference in the effectiveness and it is technically not possible because it originates from the same phase of production.
Q. Could you exercise any influence on the distribution of the vaccine?
A. Generally, no. The vaccine was sent to the central depot of the Waffen-SS at Berlin. This was done because all the requests for vaccine and drugs were directed to this central depot by all physicians and it was from there that distribution was carried out. I may point oat that only part of the vaccine, I think a third, was used for purposes of the Waffen-SS, whereas the larger part, about two-thirds of the entire production, was placed at the disposal of the concentration camps and was distributed among inmates for their protection--naturally only in those camps that were endangered by typhus.
Q. I am submitting to the Tribunal, document Mrugowsky 25, which can be found on page 164 of the Document Book 1-A, Mrugowsky 26, page 164.
I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky 44. This is an affidavit by Karl Heinrich Wehle, the head of the Main Medical Depot of the Waffen SS. I only submit it for the notice of the Tribunal.
At the same time I refer to Document Mrugowsky 26, which is to be found on page 167, which I already submitted as Mrugowsky Exhibit 6, and I shall quote from page 170, paragraph 7, which so far was not read. This is the affidavit of Dr. Karl Blumenreuther and paragraph 7 reads as follows, and I quote:
" . By far the greatest proportion of the typhus vaccines produced in Buchenwald and of the additional typhus vaccines procured through the central medical service depot was transferred to the concentration camps and could be so transferred because the vaccinations ordered to be carried out in the military SS divisions, so far as these were subordinate to the armed forces during their mobilization, were undertaken by the medical service of the armed forces."
I further submit an excerpt from the testimony of Generalarzt Dr. Schreiber which he made on 26 August 1946 before the International Military Tribunal. This can be found in the German transcript of the International Military Tribunal on page 15747. This is Mrugowsky Document No, 27 and can be found on page 173 of the document book. I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky No, 45. Answering the question, "What scientific value did the experiments of the specialist Ding have?" Generalarzt Dr. Schreiber answered, "In my opinion they had no scientific value at all because during the war we had already gained much experience and collected a great deal of data in this field. We were thoroughly acquainted with the composition and qualities of our vaccine and no such tests were required any longer. Many of the vaccines examined by Ding were not used any more at all and were rejected."
Would you define your position to that statement?
A. I do not know how Schreiber can express that opinion, nor do I know whether he is in possession of full knowledge of the results of this work.
I never discussed this question with him and I therefore cannot examine it. That much is clear, however. Schreiber is speaking of a later period of time for the vaccines that were no longer produced were not produced because the experiments of Ding had proven their inferiority. The epidemilogical examination of the various vaccines during the war only originates from a later period of time, in particular the years 1943 and 1944. T'he exploitation of these experiences only originates from the last years of the war and it is therefore my opinion that this testimony of Schreiber is incorrect.
Q. I interrupt you and I shall have Exhibit Handloser 14 show to you, from Handloser Document Book 3. We are here concerned with an excerpt of a scientific thesis by Geheimrat Otto. Do you know Geheimrat Otto?
A. Yes, I know Geheimrat Otto. He is probably the best typhus expert of not only Germany but Europe, who dealt with typhus throughout his life.
Q. From this excerpt you will see that Geheimrat Otto says, still in 1943:
"While the efficacy of lice vaccines has already been tested on a large scale in Poland, Ethiopa, and China, and the vaccine has proved its value, it is still necessary to gather large scale practical experiences with lung and vitelline sac vaccines. In animal experiments they have proved of equal value with the former."
Would you say something on that?
A. Professor Otto is saying here that even in the year 1943 the chicken egg vaccine and the vaccines from lungs of animals were not sufficiently know. That confirms what I have just testified and that is in answer to Dr. Schreiber's statement.
Q. The witness Berhardt Schmidt, who was interrogated here, stated that human experiments were superfluous for the purpose of testing vaccines and that the value of the individual typhus vaccines could have been ascertained through an epidemiological way. What is your point of view in that connection?
A. This is my opinion also. It is my opinion that thest tests could, have been carried out in an epidemiological manner. I represented that point of view before Grawitz and Himmler from the very beginning.
Q. You stated already yesterday that when testing this natter in an epidemiological way a large number of persons would have to be vaccinated and to be compared with a large number of persons who were not vaccinated. Would such a long experiment have been possible considering the circumstances as they prevailed during the war?
A. Such a test would have been possible. It was actually introduced by me within the framework of the ministry. It is a matter of course, however, that the results can only be collected at a very late date and can only be exploited at a much later date. In the case of the entire experiment we were concerned with bridging over this space of time.
Q. In carrying out this examination one could have found out that one vaccine has only a very small effectiveness, as was acutally found out in the case of the Behring vaccine. In that case would you say that the mortality of persons vaccinated with the inferior vaccine would have been much greater than the entire amount of fatalities as they occurred in Buchenwald? You know that the statement regarding the fatality figures fluctuated between 100 and 120.
A. That could be assumed to be the case with certainty. Comparison is the manner in which all tests are carried out in this field. I shall give you a few examples for that. When Emil von Behring in the year 1890 discovered the Lesser (Int.
Rammler-)
diptheria serum it was at first used by a physician of the Berlin Charite in the case of dipteria infected children. He treated about 1200 children suffering from dipteria with that serum. He registered a mortality rate in the case of these children, in spite of the treatment, of approximately 22 percent. Just as many children did not receive the serum but were treated in a different manner In this groupe the mortality rate was double, approximately 44 percent. These 240 or 250 children who died and who were in that control group certainly could have been saved if they had been giver the blessing of that diptheria serum. But that w as in reality the purpose of that test and one had to take into account that a larger ratio of mortalities would result in the control group and that then the value of the serum would be recognized.
Q. I think that this example will suffice. In that case you are really admitting that an objection against experiments in Buckenwald could not be justified?
A. During the war I did not work on any disease as ardently as on typhus. I treated thousands of patients who fell ill of typhus and examined them. I believe that in the case of such an experience one gains some knowledge of the disease. I often considered that question and I hold the opinion that my objection at the time was perhaps not justified by events. On the other hand it is my opinion that in the case of every task one has to keep the question in mind whether one is In a position to execute that task. I must admit even today that in spite of the success of the experiments, which cannot be denied, I would act similarly in yet another position and would assume the same attitude as I assured at that time.
Even today i would rot prepared to carry out any such exper 5193(a) LESSER (Int.
Rammler) iments personally or have them carried out upon my responsiblity, although a success would cone about undoubtedly.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, it seems to me that Dr. Mrugowsky has ably covered the typhus field now; we have heard ail about vaccines of all sorts and the theory of typhus; the question here is whether or not he artificially injected anyone with virulent virus, one of the main reasons for him being here. I think we could curtail this examination considerably if we consider that this background material now is sufficient.
DR. FLEMMING: The question which I just out was the last question in the typhus field. I an now going over to the yellow fever vaccine, which is described in the Ding Diary.
THE PRESIDENT: While there w as some testimony on the part of the witness on the stand possibly not particularly relevant, the Prosecution introduced the Ding Diary in evidence in its entirely and it is pertinent for the defendants to attack the reliability of the diary any way they can. In any event, counsel for the defendant Mrugowsky has now finished, according to his statement, this particular phase of the evidence. Counsel ray proceed.
5193(b)
Q. You know the entry in Ding's diary dated the 10th of January 1943 regarding the yellow fever tests. Did you kn w of these experiments?
A. Yes, I knew of these experiments. I knew about the test of the vaccine. They really were not experiments. They were tests of vaccines. I suggested that to Grawitz and he ordered it.
Q. Far what reason did you initiate that test?
A. I initiated that test because at that tine new German divisions, among them divisions of the Waffen SS, were being committed to the Africa Corps. The intended campaign of the Africa Corps was to aim at Dacar and would have landed us into yellow fever danger spots. Therefore, in the framework of all other preparations of this campaign we carried out preparations concerning protective vaccination against yellow fever. The entire preparation was in the hands of Grawitz who was concerned with planning.
Q. Was any danger to the vaccinated persons connected with the yellow fever tests?
A. No. This vaccine is produced by virus which is no longer in a position to bring about pathogenesis in the human being. In Germany we have no yellow fever virus at our disposal which is pathogenic to human beings. This vaccine, however, is in a position to bring about immunization to yellow fever. A danger to one's self is out of the question from the start.
Q. Was the yellow fever vaccine a new vaccine or was its tolerance and effectiveness known?
A. The vaccine was produced according to a proven French process. All colonial troops in central Africa and large Parts of the population of Central America were vaccinated with the same vaccine. The entire expeditionary corps of America which entered central Africa had to be vaccinated with a similar vaccine. It is a natter of course that throughout the times millions of such vaccinations were carried out and not one danger to one's self became know.
Q. Why did you initiate a test of that vaccine if it was so well known?