I saw a copy of that order. The persons in question whose blood had been taken, therefore, had additional rations. Being more than 150 cubic centimeters of blood was removed, which is the lowest limit, such compensation in the shape of food could be given.
Q You said that you considered that any damage to health was considered out of the question by you in the case of such removal of blood in the case cf convalescent patients. Please remember that Dr. Kogon has testified that this removal of blood was at least part of the reasons for later fatalities.
A This opinion of Dr. Kogon is incorrect. Nor does he speak on the strength of his own knowledge because he himself stated during his testimony that as far as the events in Block 46 were concerned he only knew them by hearsay; but he himself had no business there, so that he could not collect such experiences of his own. His assertion, therefore, is based on the statements by third persons and I would like to point out that Kogon himself also has said that persons who later on were to be infected with typhus had previously been put in a particularly favorable condition of nourishment by means of considerable additional food rations.
Q Then there is another mention of the removal of blood when, through Dr. Ellenheck, in the so-called small camp and according to Kogon's testimony blood was removed and used for blood conserves. What is to be understood by that?
A To begin with - with reference to conserving of blood during the ne numerous wounds which happened during a frontal war blood transfusions became one of the most important means of treatment. In the case of numerous such instances there is additional condition of shock and it transpired that it is not a good thing in this condition to carry out transfusions of blood with blood corposcles because through that circulation is additionally burdened. Therefore, one passed on to using serum only; despite all this at the front there are numerous cases when the transfusion of blood appears advisable and is carried out.
There is not always a sufficient number of Flood donors available and from various sources, not only in Germany but also abroad, particularly in Switzerland, the problem was tackled of bringing blood into a shape in which it can be kept several weeks and in which it can be taken to the front where it can be given to wounded soldiers. In my institute we were working, on this problem on behalf of our divisions, and such blood conserves, which could be kept for four weeks, were manufactured by us on a larger scale, and they were used for our divisions at the front. This blood did not originate from concentration camps. To the contrary, Himmler had emphatically forbidden that for use among Waffen-SS members blood from concentration camps should be used.
We set up a special donor organization in Berlin through appealing to the population. Particularly women and girls reported in such large numbers, voluntarily that is, to give their blood for this purpose, that we had more than sufficient donors for our purposes. From the stocks of this conserved blood we also supplied large quantities to concentration camps but when, late: on, transportation problems became more and more difficult because of the increasing air attacks, the demands of concentration camps could no longer be satisfied. Following a special proposal of the chief medical officer of concentration camps, the requirements of detainees were supplied from blood taken from healthy prisoners. Consequently, to this is due the entry in Ding Diary that in Buchenwald too healthy prisoners in the so-called "smaller camp", which was the description for billets and quarters, had blood taken away from them, and Kogan states quite clearly that these donors were reporting voluntarily in order to receive the additional food supplies.
Q. So that it is your opinion that this method of removing blood is perfectly justifiable?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you yourself ever give blood in that manner?
A. Yes, but not very often. Possibly twenty times.
Q. What was the quantity of blood that they took away from you?
A. Generally 500 cubic centimeters, rarely less, but a few times, 750 cubic centimeters.
Q. Mr. President, in this connection, I submit Document Mrugowsky #15. It is on page 133 of Mrugowsky's document book. #15 on page 133. I offer it as Exhibit Mrugowsky 38. It is affidavit from Professor Dr. Siebeck, Heidelb* Professor Siebeck, in connection with some of the questions which I put to him, only stated briefly that the question is ... Page 133; Document 15, Exhibit 38. Professor Siebeck, in the case of individual questions which I put to him, only states in his affidavit that this question is to be answered in the affirmative and I have, therefore, taken the liberty on Page 136, immediately following this affidavit, to reprint the questions which I had put to Professor Siebeck and these questions can be found on page 136. Professor Siebeck says in his affidavit under figure 1 that:
"Until about the beginning of this century typhus was considered to belong to the group of typhoid diseases, because the general symptoms of the disease show similarities. But since then it has been known that typhus has no connection with the typhoid diseases. This has been proved for certain especially since Nicolle discovered the germ."
Figure 2: "Typhus takes its course frequently, and it can be said, typically, with a head-ache without other troubles.
"3. A serious phenomena of the disease such as delirium, disturbances of the circulatory system, appear at first mainly during the period of numbers but this can also appear much later, especially disturbances of the circular system."
With reference to question 4, I shall first of all have to read the question which is: "Is it correct that complacations may arise in the course of this illness and that they chiefly occur in the case of a severe attack on typhus?" And the answer is: "This question is to be answered in the affirmative."
In question 5 I had asked: "Are some of these complications bronchial pneumonis, inflammation of the kidneys, hemorrhages in the skin, vomiting, etc?" and the answer: "The complications mentioned appear rather frequently in serious cases."
Figure 6: "Bonchial pneumonia, at least, is a frequent complication in cases of typhus, vomiting was not so often observed by us. The hemorrhages: the skin are mostly very slight in cases of uncomplicated typhus. Symptoms from the kidneys are frequent, but real and serious inflammation of the kidneys are frequent, but real and serious inflammation of the kidneys occurs seldom if ever. It depends on the symptoms, whether they can be traced back to the disease or to other influences."
Figure 7: "There is no specific therapy for typhus."
Figure 8: "It is correct that the therapy has first of all to support the circulatory system. I would use baths only with care. In the giving of medicines, measures called for by the symptoms to counteract the pains come into consideration. If it is opportune phlebotomy is recommended for all case of infection."
Figure 9: "The administering of Cardiazol and Sympatol mentioned seems appropriate to me. However, peroral administering is not sufficient in all cases. In serious cases an administering..."
Then I can skip this and pass on to Figure 10: "Among the anatomical changes which are traceable in cases of typhus, those in the blood vessels (perivascular infiltrates) play the most important part. The lowering of the blood pressure is apparently caused by a disturbance of the blood vessels of the brain. Only a few examinations about the quantity of blood in cases c typhus are available. I personally do not believe that the express 'a rupturing' (Bruechigwerdon) of the blood vessels is quite correct. If there are not quite special indications, I myself do not recommend phlebetome in cases of typhus, but I cannot say that phlebotomy, if carried out carefully would be a mistake. The taking of 430 cubic centimeters of blood seems rather much to me, but I do not think that real or permanent damage can be caused thereby."
Figure 11: "Does such phlebetome, if carried out correctly, have such a damaging effect on the whole body that the patient's condition will deteriorate instead of being improved?" And Dr. Siebeck draws your attention to his previous statement.
Figure 12: "It is at least quite improbable, if not impossible, for human who are in the convalescent stage after typhus to be harmed by a single blood letting of 430 cubic centimeters to such an extent that death does not occur until later in consequence of the loss of blood. Such a blood letting was made several times in order to use the serum of these patients in the treatment of now cases."
Figure 13: "Phlebotomy, if properly carried out, can be the direct cause of death only if it is made on an extremely *** weakened convalescent whose circulatory system is completely undermined."
Figure 14: "It is correct that in cases of typhus the serum of convalese has been used frequently for therapeutic purposes, statements as to the results being contradictory."
Figure 15: "Exact dates about the regeneration of the blood cannot be established. A healthy body regenerates 150 to 200 cubic centimeters of blood within a few days without even fooling it.
In case of 400 cubic centimeters of blood it may take a week or a little longer. Undernourished bodies do not regenerate so well and take a longer time than healthy ones. If the food supply is to a certain extent sufficient, the blood is regenerated also without any special additional food rations."
A. Can I add briefly that these clinical statements have been made because Dr. Ding, in his acridin work, is referring to them under the separate headings, and the prosecution, during the submission of this document, had said that these complications in typhus cases are traceable to the introduce of acridin and rutenol. That is erroneous. These complications arc due to the disease as such, and Professor Siebeck, who has particularly great experience in this sphere, states that the complications which were mentioned happened very often in typhus cases and are, therefore, not due to the medical treatment which Ding applied.
Q. You have Ding's Diary before you. On the 21st of December, 1943, until the 16th of January, 1944, on the 23th of January to the 12th of February, 1944, and the 22nd of May, 1944, to the 16th of June, 1944, you find the entry in this diary to the effect "Control of blood serum"? What experiment is he talking, about in that connection?
A. That was not an experiment at all. It was a therapy. I already stated this morning that in several cases with shock and also disturbances through infection, one only reluctantly decides on a blood transfusion, preferring rather to use blood serum. During, this war, hundreds of thousands of soldier were treated with blood; serum conserves with the greatest success. Incidents of any type never happened, and it was my aim, therefore, on behalf of the infection department of hospitals to get hold of such scrum. I did not succeed in doing so, because the production of these blood serum conserves was through the military academy of the army, and our field units were supplied through armies and divisions. As far as rear units were concerned, such conserves were not at all available. It was only after a lengthy period that I nevertheless, succeeded in getting hold of such ampules, and for treatment of disturbances of the circulatory system I placed such ampules at Ding's disposal for his patients.
Q. In the military academy or any other office did they request to have this serum conserve tried out or to check regarding its effects?
A. No and there wasn't any cause whatever to do so. In hundred of thousands of cases reactions and effects to such conserves had been known, and publications to that effect were available. I do not think that there was a single forward dressing station at any front of this last war where this conserve was not used at one time or other.
DR. FLEMMING: Mr. President, in this connection I submit to you Document Mrogowsky Number 16. It is on Page 140 of Document Book 1-A, Mrugowsky Number 13, Page 140. I offer it as Document Mrugowsky Exhibit Number 39. It is an affidavit from one Konrad Lang who produced this blood serum conserve.
Following the customary preamble he first of all describes how these conserves were manufactured. Then on Page 140 of the German version he says, "All serum preserves would show after a few weeks or months a slight darkening, which was the normal occurrence of pus and caused through fixing corpuscles. During long transports, particularly by car, this process and formation of this film was accelerated. Ampules which dressing stations had held for a lengthy period showed clearly discoloring. Numerous reports by the Institute were received, showing that the usability was no worse than in the case of clear ampules.
"We, nevertheless, introduced the precautionary measure that in the case of the infusion of strongly discolored ampules a gauze filter should be introduced and that the infusion should take place as slowly as possible. These filters could be got from the main hospitals, a measure which was, however, rarely used in the field.
"Prof. Dr. Mrugowsky was specially interested in the manufacture of serum preserves and discussed the matter several times with myself as well as the director of the serum laboratory at Berlin, Oberstabsarzt Dr. Kreiselmaier. I am certain that on these occasions the question of clouded ampules and its insignificance with regard to their compatibility was discussed. The necessity of experiments on humans was never mentioned, for the excellent therapeutical qualities of serum preserves and their agreeability had been known for years and had proved themselves long since in the field by the application of many tens of thousands of ampules.
"Several scientific papers dealing with this matter had also been published."
I can skip a passage; and it will suffice to read the last paragraph. I quote: "I was not informed on which of the patients the SS intended to use the serum preserves they asked for. But I asked Prof. Dr. Mrugowsky to see to it that also the SS line all other departments which used serum preserves submit reports on their experiences of therapeutic success and compatibility."
Q In the so-called Ding Diary, the use of protective vaccine is repeatedly mentioned. On the 24th of March to the 20th of April, 1943, there is an entry about carrying out of a large scale experiment on forty-five persons according to the scheme of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen SS. Please, will you give us your views on that?
A In the indictment we are accused among other things of having, carried out infections of human beings by means of pox, typhus, paratyphus A and B, cholera, yellow fever, and diphtheria. Apparently this accusation is based on this passage in Ding's Diary. May I first of all say that it isn't at all easy to produce artificial infections of human beings and particularly has it never been possible to produce artificial infections in the case of diphtheria. There were experiments about this during in which it was not possible that children who had infectious diphtheria bacilli sprayed into their throats would become ill with diphtheria. This did not work. In that case we are not concerned at all with any infection but with protective vaccinations, in fact, exactly the opposite; and I do believe that any accusation which the prosecution made would not have been made against us had the context of the natter been recognized clearly at the beginning.
The connections here were as follow's. Since the end of 1942 the training period for recruits in the Waffen SS at home stations amounted to only four weeks. During those four weeks, therefore, apart from military training, all vaccinations and inoculations which were essential had to be carried out. In order to enable the medical officer and the commanding officer to carry this matter out more easily, I devised a vaccination and inoculation plan containing the exact information regarding the day when vaccination or inoculation of recruits had to be carried out.
DR. FLEMMING: This vaccination plan is Document Mrugowsky Number 17 and can be found on Page 143 of Document Book 1-A. I beg to submit it as Exhibit Mrugowsky Number 40. I am only submitting it for the information of the Tribunal and will refrain from reading it. This is Document Mrugowsky Number 17, Page 143, Exhibit Mrugowsky 40.
A This vaccination plan shows that the interval between individual vaccinations amounted to an average of one week, which is the customary period. But during this one week other types of vaccinations were applied so that the entire period of vaccinations was abbreviated. We know from long experiences of the last war, particularly from the British, through White, that such vaccinations can be well carried out during a short period. Vaccination reactions aren't any more prominent than in the case of any ordinary vaccination.
But one great technical advantage does arise, namely, in a short period all vaccinated persons are still under control whereas in the case of the spreading cut of such vaccinations ever a lengthy period they will possibly be transferred to other stations and there are not available for observation.
One day the chief Medical officer of concentration camps, Loehning, told me that in the concentration camp Buchenwald a large number of Dutchmen had been interned. I think they num bered several thousand.
Thereupon I asked him whether he was aware of the fact that these Dutchmen did not know any compulsion for the vaccination against pox as we knew it in Germany, and particularly that they did not know the conception of the three vaccinations during a certain proscribed age period, and that, therefore, Dutchmen weren't as completely protected against pox as Germans were. In theory, therefore, at least it had to be expected that once pox were being introduced from outside, a danger which existed at all times when members of so many nations are crammed to ether, then a pox epidemic would occur.
Loehning was most perturbed about this. He hadn't known these facts; and he wanted to have all his camps vaccinated against pox immediately. I told him that that was not at all a necessity. In Germany through vaccine producers under state control we had the pox vaccine at our disposal at all times. So I said that there was sufficient time to carry out such a complete vaccination once the first case of pox occurred but that I thought that it was an exaggerated precaution if hundreds of thousands of people would be vaccinated against pox at such a point.
At the same time Loehning told me, however, that Russian prisoners of war had also arrived at Buchenwald and at other camps. Here we were concerned with a different type of danger because at that time, in the Spring of 1943, there were two prisoner of war camps in the Southern Ukraine where cholera had broken out, so that the possibility existed that through these Russian prisoners of war cholera might be spread and be brought into concentration camps in this manner.
In this case, therefore, immediate action was essential. I recommended to him, therefore, apart from anti-typhoids and para-typhoids, vaccines which had been the custom for a long time, the introduction of vaccinations against cholera in those camps which contained Russian prisoners.
Loehning subsequently complained about all the vaccinations which I considered essential. He thought that this was difficult to realize in practice; but I told him, "You have to do something for the protection of your prisoners in any case; otherwise you'd become guilty of a very considerable omission." I also told him that for about six months we in the waffen SS had found a different method of carrying out such vaccinations; and I showed him this vaccination plan which we had used for tens of thousands of people in Waffen-SS with the best of success and without any indigestibility.
In order to simplify vaccinations against various bacilli one vaccine, for instance, contained bacilli against four different tests. That was the so-called tetra vaccine which had already become well-known from the previous war and which now when cholera appeared in the Southern Ukraine, though in a slightly changed and improved shape, was once again introduced. This vaccine had been developed and tried out on soldiers through one of my associates; and my associate Dötzer reported about this during a consultation conference. The entire German armed forces were vaccinated with this vaccine. In fact, many millions of people, without any incidence, and with the Lest of success.
These same vaccines were also used for protective vaccinations in concentration camps. Subsequently in this vaccination plan we introduced vaccinations, first of all, against pox, secondly, against typhoid and paratyphoid A and B, and cholera. These vaccinations were the rule for the entire German armed forces. Furthermore, every member of the Waffen-SS was vaccinated against typhus and, because we had much diphtheria in home stations, also against diphtheria.
Loehning asked me whether he ought ot vaccinate against diphtheria because, of course, occasionally he too had accumulations of diphtheria incidence in concentration camps. I told him that this was not necessary since the average age of concentration camp prisoners was higher than that of the recruits of the Waffen SS and since, therefore, no more measures against diphtheria were necessary.
Q. This vaccination plan which was carried out on forty-five people, with commercial vaccines, was that to be considered as an experiment?
A. It has been described as a large scale experiment. I am not quite sure what Ding meant by the word "grosse versuche," "large experiment", because it was carried out on forty-five people. A few pages before this very entry in the diary he is talking about another series of experiments with typhus on 145 people. If you carry out vaccinations on forty-five people, then that is not a large-scale experiment.
Q. Well, is this to be considered as an experiment?
A. That isn't an experiment under any circumstances because there is nothing in this case which had to be experimented with. Digestibility was known for a long period in the case of millions of people, both at home and abroad. I believe that here it is language which is causing us difficulties because in Germany we have only one word for something which is described as "versuche," "experiment"; and even in the case of the introduction of a new drug, new medical supplies to the troops, we talk about "truppen versuche," "troop experiments." These are not experiments in the sense of the word "experiments," the outcome of which is unknown at the outset.
It is a check-up, an examination. So that one ought to draw this dividing line in this case between check-up, examination, in the case of vaccination because that most certainly is not an experiment.
Q. But then why did you give the advice that in spite of that not the entire camp should be vaccinated throughout but that first of all compatibility should be checked by means of a small group?
A. I knew that the average age of concentration camp prisoners was higher than that of troops and that their condition of nourishment was worse. Consequently, I recommended to Dr. Loehning that before vaccinating hundreds of thousands of people he first of all satisfy himself as to the digestibility of these vaccines under these special conditions in concentration camps. That was an act of extra precaution. We German doctors, before such large scale application of vaccine is to take place, love first of all to try the same thing on a smaller number of similar people in order to, as we call it, get check of such vaccines.
Q. Please look at the last line on Page 13 of Ding's Diary. There is mention of a repeated vaccination against pox. after three months. Is that customary?
A. No, that is not a custom. You only vaccinate once against pox; but I would assume that we are here concerned with an error on the entry since previously he is talking about diphtheria. During diphtheria vaccinations, a great deal of experience with children was collected but little experience in the case of adults, something which has occurred to other medical men, too, because the necessity to vaccinate against diphtheria would generally speaking not be in existence in the case of adults. It was seen that diphtheria vaccine reactions in the case of adults are more violent than in the case of children; and therefore a larger interval is introduced between two vaccinations which are necessary against diphtheria, in the case of a child the interval is twentyeight days, on other words, a month. I would assume that here we are concerned with the second diphtheria vaccination which was to be carried out after three months and not, therefore, a pox vaccination.
DR. FLEMMING: In this connection I submit to the Tribunal Document Mrugowsky 17-A. It is on Page 145. I offer it in evidence as Mrugowsky Exhibit Number 41. It is an affidavit from Director Demnitz; and I sub mit it for the information of the Tribunal without reading from it.
At the same time I offer in evidence Document Mrugowsky Number 18, on Page 148. I offer this in evidence as Exhibit Mrugowsky 42. I should like to read from it briefly as follows:
"Vaccines against typhoid and parathyphoid fever, also cholera. In the conditions described (crowding of many thousands of human beings of many nationalities into the concentration camp) the presence of numerous bacilli carriers and the constant danger of a typhoid or paratyphoid epidemic had to be reckoned with among the inmates of the camp. Thus inoculation was a necessary preventive health measure. The pleasing fact that cases of these diseases did not occur in large numbers in the camps is probably due to this inoculation. When Russian prisoners of war too entered the concentration camps at the same time as cholera broke out among Russian prisoners of war in the Ukraine and were in closest contact with the other prisoners, there also existed in my opinion a danger of cholera, so that inoculation against cholera, too, became necessary as a preventive health measure.
"The use of vaccines manufactured by the Behring Works (typhoid, paratyphoid, vaccine T.A.B., and the so-called tetra vaccine, consisting of dead typhoid, paratyphoid A and B bacilli and dead cholera vibriones) was correct for these inoculations. The omission of such inoculations in the conditions described would probably have been termed a mistake (professional slip) by most doctors, bacteriologists, and hygienists."
Then I omit part of this document and read the last three lines of it: "Its protective value is recognized by the overwhelming number of specialists. The exact course, the tolerance of persons in regard to these inoculations and the effect of these inoculations has been known now for a long time; and therefore it is impossible to speak of these inoculations as 'experiments'".
The passage numbered VIII will not be read by me. It confirms Mrugowsky's testimony. Equally, Paragraph IX, Diphtheria, concerns Mrugowsky's testimony: and I shall only read from Paragraph 2, approxi mately the center.
"Since 1930 many millions of children and a lesser number of grownups in many countries have been inoculated with these Absorbat vaccines. Their harmlessness and their effect, namely on children, is generally known in medical circles."
The last line at the bottom in the German: "It must be added, however, that the Absorbat used neither contained living nor dead diphtheria bacilli but only bacilli which had been deprived of their poison by treatment with Formol."
Then in the final paragraph: "The vaccinations prescribed were not experiments but regular inoculations internationally recognized, such as are undertaken in all civilized and enlightened countries as a protection against a state of epidemic."
This is an affidavit from Professor Dold, Freiburg, who is one of the greatest experts in this sphere.
Q. During experimental vaccinations by Dr. Ding, did he use new vaccines which had not been tried out?
A. No, these were commercial vaccines which had also been used in the armed forces and for the civilian population as well as the Waffen SS.
Q. Subsequent to the experimental inoculations by Dr. Ding or connected therewith, was there any occasion when experimental vaccinations on the vaccinated persons were carried out?
A. Neither in connection with such protective vaccinations nor any other affections was any infection carried out. In all these cases we are concerned with the first phase of an inoculation program for all concentration camp inmates and for their protection against disease.
DR. FLEMMING: I now submit to the Tribunal Document Mrugowsky Number 87, Page 226. This is an extract from the Neue Zeitung, dated 7 March 1947, Page 2. I offer this extract as Mrugowsky Exhibit Number 43. I submit it only for your information. It will draw your attention to the fact that 78 million Japanese are at present being vaccinated against pox and yellow fever. 5182
Q. Well then who ordered these various experiments which we have just discussed?
A. You mean the typhus experiments?
Q. I mean ail the experiments?
A. The experiments of Dr. Ding occurred at the end of 1941 through the Collective Order given by Himmler. The aim was that all existing vaccines against typhus should be checked for their effectiveness on human beings. Since this comprehensive order was in existence from the beginning, the detailing of prisoners had to be settled from case to case. It was, as I emphasized, repeatedly, that at the beginning they were detailed through the administrative of the concentration camps, but later from the Reich Criminal police Department in this central department. Details regarding the channels of the orders are not known to me.
Q. Do you remember that the Prosecution submitted the document No. 1190, Prosecution's Exhibit No, 321, which contains a list of prisoners who were furnished the Reich Criminal Police Office for the purpose of experiments. Do you remember this list?
A. Yes, I know of it from the trial here.
Q. Did you request these inmates from the Reich Criminal Police Office or did you have any correspondence with the Reich Criminal Police Office in that matter?
A. No.
Q. In that case you never gob in contact with the Reich Criminal police Office for the furnishing of persons for these experiments?
A. No.
Q. Do you know that Kogen asserted that you suddenly could not have exercised any influence on the furnishing of these inmates, but that there was a connection to the Reich Criminal Police Office, and to their furnishing of the inmates, and that you were the connecting link there. Could you say something on that?
A. This statement is wrong. I neither had any correspondence with the Reich Criminal Police Office on that matter, nor do I know Kriminalrat Otto, who was the person in charge of the concentration camp inmates, and in the end that Ding and Grawitz only told me that criminals were used for these experiments.
The fact that since the end, finally of 1933, the furnishing of these inmates was centrally done through the office of the aid in Berlin was the proof to me that actually only criminal prisoners were used for the experiments. Only criminal persons could be dealt with at the Reich Criminal Police Office, where the political inmates were subordinate to the Political Police,that is, the Gestape; these two offices had nothing to do with one another.
Q. How often were you at Buchenwald?
A. About three times.
Q. What did you do there?
A. Upon my arrival I went to the camp commander in order to report to him. That was customary procedure, and I was then received by the Dr. Ding, who was called to his office byway of telephone. Only by a commandant could a person be accompanied and could I pass through the camp. I then went with him to Block 50, and then there we passed on the questions of vaccine production occurring in detail. I entered Buchenwald for the first time in the Fall of 1943, that is, during the war. It is possible, that that was the 3rd of September, as it is maintained in Ding's report. During my first visit, I entered Block 46, too, but I already stated yesterday that at that time there was no experiment with infection carried out, and that I only saw a few patients there who had fallen ill spontaneously. I spoke to them there, and I was of the opinion that the infection experiments had stopped.
Q. Witness, Kogen and Kirchheimer have testified that your visit in Block 46 only lasted for half an hour, is that correct?
A. At the most it lasted for half an hour.
Q. You were just saying that you only entered Block 46 at this time. Kogen and Kirchheimer on the other hand testified that you were there on.
two or three occasions, and on every occasion visited Block 46, was that a correct situation?
A. That is not true, but it can easily be clarified. Both made the statement since they were in Block 50, and it is a fact that my arrival was registered, and announced at Block 46, and that I actually did not go there, out that we visited what was called Little Camp, which was behind Block 46. On that occasion I did not enter Block 46, but I have, I think, I stated the reason for that time.
Q. Could one observe Block 46 from Block 50 where Kogan and Kirchheimer were?
A. No, an other block was in between there, if I remember correctly.
Q. Wallachowsky maintained that when visiting Little Camp you saw the one that was death block, is that correct?
A. No, that is not true. I don't know of any such institution that existed. That is not established that such an institution did exist, and I still don't know of it today.
JUDGE SEBRING: Dr. Flemming, the Tribunal would like to know something about the size of these blacks, how large are they in area, what is their composition, and what is their number - how many people were in those blocks particularly about Block 46 and block 50.
DR. FLEMMING: Yes, surely. You heard the question, would you please answer it, witness?
THE WITNESS: The Camp Buchenwald consisted generally of wooden barracks. There were a few stone buildings there, which had two floors. I estimate that they were about fifteen meters long. If they were filled with people, a considerable amount of persons could be housed there. It was a question of how one placed his bed, whether one has a bed, which were on two or three floors, and that, of course, is an open question. Block 50 had no housing facilities. It was only a laboratory. The inmates who worked there were housed in an adjoining room. Block 46 was a hospital and it had better housing facilities than any other of the blocks of the camp. If I recall from my single visit there, there was only one level of beds, there, that is, one row of beds, was there, singly.
I did not see any other block at that time, and I therefore did not know how many rooms it contained. I don't believe that in neither building of the blocks, that patients in any one, could house there more than approximately one-hundred. That, however, is a more estimation on my part, and I believe that Dr. Hoven could tell more, or will be able to tell you more about it.
In the wooden barracks of the camp the inmates were much closer together, especially unfavorable housing facilities were any way near Little Camp; that was the reason why I was asked by Ding to inspect the camp. This led to a report by me which I sent to Chief of the Supreme Building Offices of the SS. I communicated my urgent request to re-organize the building in Buchenwald in order to help that situation. In that camp the inmates were very close together, and were definitely overcrowded.