Counsel may ascertain from examining Central Law No. 10 matters of which this Tribunal does take judicial notice. I said the Matter is of no particular concern but so frequently the term judicial notice is used whom it is really not applicable to the particular situation in the phase in which it is used.
The Tribunal will recess until 1330.
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session. May it please Your Honors, the defendant Brack having been excused from the morning session has again taken his place in Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Is the defendant Rudolf Brandt ready to proceed with his case?
DR. KAUFMAN (For the Defendant, Rudolf Brandt):
Mr. President, this how I plan the case of defendant Brandt. First I intend to read a brief affidavit of the witness, Schellenberg, and then following that I would like to examine the witness Otto Meine and, then I want to examine the defendant Brandt as a witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The procedure suggested by counsel is satisfactory. You may proceed.
DR. KAUFMAN: In my document book on page 16 there is an affidavit of the witness Walter Scollenberg. I submit this as Rud If Brandt Exhibit No. 1. Now I should like to read his statement:
"I, Walter Schellenberg -" I need not read the introduction. I has the usual preamble and I begin with No. 1, and quote:
"1. I have known Dr. Rudolf Brandt since the year 1939; I became more closely acquainted with him in the year 1942. Because of his good education and his quiet, reserved manner I preferred him, as far as official contacts were concerned, to all those surrounding Himmler, who, in part, led a kind of life that was contrary to the decency and abstinence of Rudolf Brandt.
"I claimed Rudolf Brandt especially in order to attain suitable and quick conferences with Himmler. I personally was finally SS-Brigadefuehrer, and Brigadier-general of the Waffen SS, professionally Chief of the Office VI and Mil" -- that means Military Intelligence Service -- "of the Reich Main Security Office. The offices included the German 'Intelligence Service' abroad (politically and militarily) "2. From 1943 onwards I informed Rudolf Brandt about my efforts to secure peace and other endeavors in the interests of humanity.
In this particular respect Brandt always supported me.
When in difficult individual cases my efforts with Himmler were successful, then his continuous support undoubtedly helped to effect this through securing me interviews.
"If I have mentioned my efforts for securing peace in the above statement, then I may add to this the following remark:
"Already in 1942 I recognized the military defeat awaiting Germany. I tried by legal and illegal means to do what I possibly could in order to help to bring about the termination of the War. In my capacity as Chief of the German Foreign News Service I entered into numerous connections with foreign personalities for this purpose, people whom I would not like to name now for specific reasons. My name is, however, known in foreign circles, and indeed in connect in with my attempts to end the War.
"I occasionally drew Rudolf Brandt's attention to the political aspects, even if he could not recognize the general aspects because of the lack of essential prerequisites in his education.
"As to Rudolf Brandt's character, about which I an entitled to give an accurate opinion, I remark what follows:
"Because of his ability as a perfect stenographer, his punctuality, his untiring diligence, he became Himmler's convenient, always attainable, I should say registering, writing and reminding machine. Rudolf Brandt always reminded me of a writing mechanism; as only such a type of person can, on the one hand complain about being overworked, and on the other hand declare with pride that he had to produce 3000 to 4000 outgoing letters per month. I repeatedly saw him step out of Himmler's room with many stenographers. His office, and in part if's floor, was completely littered with documents. I know that Himmler was afraid of sending letters bearing his signature directly to a third person, dictated them to Rudolf Brandt in order to remain in an anonymous background. Since Himmler showed only one side of his character to Brandt, and therefore understood how to attach Rudolf Brandt to himself in a psychologically very clever manner, Brandt too lost the ability to judge Himmler correctly. Rudolf Brandt has certainly frequented a university but he has at the rest an average general education, since during the course of the years he could not improve his education in consequence of his tremendous professional activities.
"According to my convictions Rudolf Brandt would never have been able to participate in any way whatever in offences or crimes against humanity. Nurnberg, 7 February, 1947."
And then a signature and a certificate.
THE PRESIDENT: Now counsel I notice in the translation in the third paragraph, the fourth line of the English document, referring to the Chief of Office IV, in the document book it was translated VI, which is correct?
DR. KAUFMAN: Six is right. Now I ask that the witness Meine be called to the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will summon the witness, August Meine.
AUGUST MEINE, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE SEBRING: Hold up your right hand and be sworn repeating: I swear by God, The Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE SEBRING: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. KAUFMANN:
Q. You are the witness, August Meine?
A. Yes.
Q. When were you born?
A. I was born on the 13th of October, 1916.
Q. Mr. Meine, you were one of the closest associates of Brandt for several years. You were often his Deputy. Now I should like to question you about a group of facts, and for that reason I shall ask you a few specific questions right away. I should like to know your observations you made on the staff of the Reichsfuehrer-SS. I should like to know how you saw the personality of Brandt, how you saw the personality of Himmler, and the influence which Himmler had on his environment, including Brandt. Finally I should like to know from you how the daily work on the personal staff was carried out, how Brandt worked specifically, how extensive his work was, and how his signature on very important documents can be explained. Would you please first explain your position in the personal department?
A. I was a Lieutenant in the German Army and had been transferred to the Waffen-SS when I entered the personal staff of Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler on the 1st of November 1940. After having had six weeks to get used to the work, I represented Dr. Brandt for the first time for a period of fourteen days. Since this experiment was successful, it was intended that I should be able to represent him even in the future. The division of our work apart from these periods where I represented him, after Himmler since the middle of 1941 had removed his headquarters from Berlin, was that I was to be in charge of the office at Berlin, and then, after November, 1943, after we had been bombed out in Berlin, I was to take over the evacuated office of the personal staff of Himmler.
There I had assembled most of the clerks and a few collaborators, whereas Dr. Brandt was continually escorting Himmler himself. Finally I was promoted to SS-Sturmbannfuehrer, a position which corresponds to the rank of a major.
Q. In order to make your position clear, and in order to explain to the Tribunal what the personal staff of Reichsfuehrer Himmler looked like, I shall now show you a sketch prepared by Rudolf Brandt and ask you to comment on this sketch and perhaps explain it briefly.
DR. KAUFMANN: In my document book, Mr. President, this sketch is on page 1. I offer it as exhibit Rudolf Brandt No. 2.
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor, this sketch that is being offered as Exhibit No. 1, I have no objection as to the admission of this into evidence, but it seems to me that it could contain the names of the people that hold down the various jobs. He has the titles of the various organizations, but it is going to be rather difficult for the Prosecution and I assume the Tribunal to follow the organizational setup without the names of the personalities fitting into each block. I wonder if it would be possible to have a chart of this type made later and perhaps submitted with the names of the particular people there.
DR. KAUFMANN: Mr. President, of course I can fulfill the wish of the Prosecutor, but I don't believe that will be necessary. I think it would be enough if the Tribunal sess in general how the personal staff was organized. In my opinion, the names of the individual persons are not important, I would only hamper the Tribunal if names were given because these names were constantly changing, of course; but, as I have said, I will be glad to fulfill this wish especially if it is also the wish of the Tribunal to have these names given.
THE PRESIDENT: I think it might be convenient to the Tribunal if at least some of the higher names were filled in so that one could get an idea from whom the chart stems.
BY DR. KAUFMANN:
Q. Witness, would you be in a position in spite of tho complicated nature of the personal staff to say which people held these various positions?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have the chart?
A. No.
Q. One preliminary question, Mr. Meine, what you have before you is the personal staff of the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it also true that this entire personal staff was a so-called Main Office, Hauptamt?
A. It was considered to be a Main Office, but this staff had a different meaning.
Q. May I ask one more question first: how many such Main Offices were there in Germany?
A. The Reichsfuehrsung- SS was composed of twelve Main Offices. Tho personal staff was one of these Main Offices.
Q. How many persons were there in this personal staff of Himmler, approximately?
A. Approximately five hundred persons, but this figure fluctuated during the course of the War since a number of tasks received more emphasis while other tasks had to be neglected.
Q. Now please explain this sketch in a few words.
A. Yes. May I say at first that the personal staff comprised the immediate circle of collaborators of Himmler, upon whom he relied for t he personal dealing with his own affairs, and in addition, a number of agencies which for material reasons could not be placed in the other Main Offices, and for that reason, for reasons of simplicity, were attached to this personal staff.
Q. What was the name of the Chief of the personal staff?
A. The name of the Chief of the personal staff was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf. He only held this position up to the time he received a command in Italy. As far as I remember, that happened towards the end of '43.
Q. And after 1943 who was Chief of the personal staff?
A. Afterwards nobody became Chief of the personal staff. The tasks as far as they could not be dealt with by Himmler personally, were dealt with by the Chief of Staff, SS-Standartenfuehrer Baumert -
Q. Please look at the sketch and explain whether the next box with the word "Stabsfuehrer", staff manager, whether that was the person you have just mentioned?
A. The box "Stabsfuehrer", staff manager, was held by SS-Standartenfuehrer Baumert.
Q. What was the position of the Stabsfuehrer?
A. He was responsible for personnel matters concerning the entire staff. He was in charge of the budget of vehicles, transportation, and moreover, was the disciplinary superior of all the members of the staff. That applied to male and female members of the staff.
Q. Now, please explain the next row.
A. The next row comprises the offices which dealt with special tasks, tasks to which Himmler attached value, and which had not found a place in the other Main Offices. Starting from the lefthand side we find the office Annenorbe which concerns itself with the scientific hobbies of Himmler. That is pre-historical research work there and other literary research work originating from Germanic culture in which Himmler was interested.
Q Do you know who was in charge of this office?
A Yes, this office, "Ahnenerbe" had a president and that was Himmler himself. Then it had a scientific curator, who was a university professor, Dr. Wuest. The latter was a director of the University of Munich. In addition, this office had a business manager, who was SS-Standartenfuehrer Wolfram Sievers.
Q I think that will be enough. Now go on to the next office.
A The second office was the "Raw Materials Office". When, during the course of the war, more and more spheres of human activity were dealt with by the State in an increasing measure, the Reichsfuehrer-SS deemed it to be correct to see that not every Main Office should register their needs with State authorities on their own behalf, but that all these applications and requests be centralized in one spot and from there to be sent on to the Ministry of Economics or the Ministry of Armaments or the Agency for the Four Year Plan.
Q Who was the head of this office?
A The head of this office was SS-Standartenfuehrer Kloth.
Q That will be enough.
A. Yes.
Q Now the next one.
A The next office comprised a castle in Westphalia where the ReichsfuehrerSS collected a number of valuables of a historic and artistic nature. This office was intended by him as a place of meeting with high SS leaders. However, that never came into effect during the war. The castle hadn't been finished yet.
Q And who was head of this?
A The head was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Taubert. The next office is the Office "Lebenshorn." This office dealt with the care for mothers of illegitimate children. It had a number of maternity homes in Germany, were mothers were cared for a few weeks pro-natally and after their children had been brought into the world. The head of this office was SS-Standartenfuehrer Max Sellmann.
The next office, the Office 'Fahrenkamp', dealt with tasks of an architectural nature, and interior architectural nature. It drafted furniture for farmers and made plans in connection with other house furniture which was needed far the SS. The head of this office was Sturmbannfuehrer Fahrenkamp -- the name is spelled on the chart. Connected with that was the Office "Munich", where drafts were worked out for porcelain objects which were manufactured in the porcelain factories owned by the SS. The head of this office was SS-Oberfuehrer Diebitsch. But this man spent a great number of the war years with the army, so that this office was also under the previously mentioned officer, SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Fahrenkamp.
Q The so-called main sections which fellow now, the main departments in the fourth row-- did they also have chiefs when you could name?
A Yes. The main departments listed in the next row comprised the collaborators of Himmler, those other persons on whom he relied for tho handling of his personal affairs. It starts with the Main Department 'Registry," which was divided into two departments, which were independent of one another. On the one hand there was the Registry for Top Secret Matters and then there was the Registry for Public or Open Directives. The head was SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Treusch.
Then follows the Main Department 'Administration,' which dealt with the budget for the personal staff. The head was an SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer, Mohr.
The next department was 'Economic Aid'. This office originated from peacetime when the Reichsfuehrer-SS planned special measures intended for these SS members who had come into economic need, not by their own fault.
This office issued loans to a large extent. The head was an SS-Sturmbannfuehrer, r. Fitzner.
Q. Before you discuss the personal department I would suggest that you first deal with the other main departments and that we come back to the personal department, and discuss it at the end.
A. Very well. The Main Department "Staff Leaders Office", (Stabsfuehrung), comprised the collaborators which were used by the staff manager when dealing with his disciplinary tasks. There is no special name to be mentioned in connection with that office. Then follows the Chief Adjutant's Office which received all of Himmler's visitors and in addition constantly accompanied Himmler's official journies. After 1942 it dealt also with military tasks as far as they concerned divisions of the Waffen-SS at the front. This main department maintained direct contact with the SS Operational Main Office (SS Fuehrungshauptamt) which was the highest operational office for the Waffen-SS. The head of this main department was SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Grothmann.
Q. I have one question to ask here. You just said that the Chief Adjutant's Office had direct connection with the SS Operational Office (SS Fuehrungsamt)?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was head of the SS Operational Office?
A. That was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Juettner. The next is the Main Department "SS Judges". When in the course of the war the Waffen SS was built up, the SS and police jurisdiction extended largely. Himmler wanted to have SS judges in his vicinity who would be in a position to report to him about the current cases and who would be able to get his decisions. The head of that department was SS-Oberfuehrer Bender. This main department maintained a direct contact with the Main Judge's Department of the SS. (Hauptamt "SS Gericht")
Q. Who was the head of the office which you have just mentioned?
A. Excuse me. I only know the name of the first head, who died in the year 1942. This was SS-Oborgruppenfuehrer Scharfe, and I now remember that the later head was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Breithaupt.
Q. Please go on.
A. Now we deal with the Main Department Police Adjutant's Office. From the time on when Himmler had become Chief of the German Police, which was 17 July 1936, he had a special adjutant who dealt with all police matters. This man maintained direct contact with the Main Department "Order Police" (Ordnungspolizei) and with the Main Department Security Police, the so-called Reich Security Main Office (RSHA). The head of this Main Department was SS Obersturmbannfuehrer, and Lieutenant-Colonel of the Order police, Suchanek.
The next main department only existed as long as SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf was Chief of the Personal Staff, that is, until the end of the year 1943. The head of this department at the last was SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Heckenstaller.
The next main department, the Personnel Department, dealt with personnel matters of all members of the personal staff. I am sorry, I forgot the name of the head of this department.
Then we have the Department Awards and Guests, which originally dealt with all awards which were received by SS members in war or peace time. However, this department decreased in importance during the war or peace time. However, this department decreased in importance during the war and finally ceased to exist altogether. These tasks were then dealt with by the General Main Department, the SS-Personnel Main Office, the head of which was SS-Obergruppenfuehrer von Hert.
The last department was to pass special wishes of Himmler on to the press. This department was also to supply him daily with German press reports. The head of this department changed frequently, it was mostly a young journalist, so that it is hardly possible to name the responsible man.
Q. And now we come to the Personal Department. Rudolf Brandt was the head of that. Will you please tell me first how large this Personal Department was, numerically -- how many people there were?
A. It comprised between 16 and 20 people. After Himmler had moved into his permanent headquarters, four or five of these people stayed with Dr. Brandt, whereas the other ten or fifteen were with me in Berlin or at the Evacuation Post.
Q. Could you tell us in one or two sentences what the subject of the work of this Personal Department was?
A. I believe I can differentiate between four groups. First, all of the matters of the General-SS (Allgemeire SS) Group. Himmler had given the right to the 15,000 oldest members of the SS to avail themselves of the opportunity of approaching him at all times, directly. This was an opportunity which was made use of very frequently. In addition, in every case where an SS member had died or fallen during the war, Himmler received a report about his family's situation and what kind of help was given by the SS in that case. These events in themselves amounted to hundreds or even thousands during the course of one month. In addition, in cases where a fourth or fifth child was born to an SS member, personal congratulations were sent by Himmler. Himmler also approved every marriage so that daily there were ten to fifteen marriage applications which had to be submitted to him. In addition to that were the numerous presents which he gave--presents of porcelain, fruit juices, children's candles, books, and all sorts of other things.
The second group comprised applications coming from the German people. There were mostly requests for help or requests for advice in family matters. It frequently occurred that these applicants had other applications dealing in other agencies of the Reich, and asked for the support of the SS on their behalf.
The third group comprised proposals of all kinds. It happened very frequently that men and women, belonging to the German people, who had acquaintances in the SS, felt the need to tell Himmler about their thoughts of their suggestions.
The last group finally comprised the official correspondence, that is, the contact with all agencies of the Reich and the Party, and especially the contact with the other main departments, with the exception of the 4 main departments which I already excepted when speaking about the chart. We have to exclude 4 offices of the 12 main offices, that is, the Reich Security Main Office, the Main Office Order Police, the Main Office SS Court, and the Operational Main Office.
Q. Now is it correct, witness, that Himmler drew a short distinction ir the Personal Department between those fields which you have just mentioned, and the police matters?
A. Yes. It was one of his principles to make a strict distinction between these matters. It happened sometimes that our attention was drawn to police affairs by reason of the applications that came from the public, and I world have boon very glad to follow up the further dealing with these matters in the police sphere; Himmler, however, attached great value to so that we only approached the police Adjutant who had to deal with anything further.
Q. So that Brandt transferred all police matters to the man in charge?
A. All police matters were transferred to the Police Adjutant who had his own registry at his disposal. Matters concerning the police were not comprised within the general registry of the Personal Staff.
Q. No, witness, Brandt had to work with all those things which you have just listed?
A. Yes.
Q. As Chief of the Office?
A. Yes.
Q Was that a great deal or work?
A. I may perhaps clarify that by giving you a few figures. During the war there were, as a rule, 8,000 to 10,000 letters emanating from our department per month. Himmler signed perhaps 500 of these letters personal* never more than that.
Dr. Brandt signed perhaps 3,000 to 4,000 letters per month, that is, a hundred or more per day. In my case it was a lettle less and fluctuated between 2,500, and 3,000. The rest, about 1,500 were taken care of by my collaborators, and these were natters of minor importance.
Q. Now, witness, I should like to attempt to make it clear to the Tribunal how it came about that Brandt signed very important documents. Will you please tell us what a normal working day was from morning to evening, what observation you made, and what Brandt's active part was?
A. Apart from the times when I had to represent him, I often went to the Field Command, since I had to receive all the visitors in Berlin to whom Himmler wanted to speak personally. These were often matters concerning family affairs. I took the opportunity to report the applications of these people collectively to Dr. Brandt so that he could again pass on these reports. During these occasions I often experienced how a day of work passed for him. In addition, I myself was subject to similar conditions of work whenever I represented him. Dr. Brandt slept very little. He could already be found at his desk at 7:00 o'clock in the morning. Then he looked at his stenographic notes and at his notebook; in order to check whether he forgot any urgent request of the previous day. In addition he dictated a number of letters to his secretary.
Q What direct assistants did Brandt have?
A Brandt had a secretary and a younger collaborator of mine. In addition, he had an office messenger boy.
Q Go on and describe the day.
AAt approximately 9:30 the courier train arrived with the mail.
Q Where did the train come from?
A It came from Berlin and was destined together all headquarters in East Prussia. That is, not only Himmler's, but also Goering's, Ribbentrop's, and Hitler's Headquarters itself. Dr. Brandt then had to sort the mail. That is, matters dealing with press affairs, applications for marriages, family letters meant for Himmler personally. Also, his secret mail had to be sorted out from the other mail. And all these letters which were opened had to be checked in order to see whether they were to be directed to Himmler himself. Although they personally were addressed to Brandt they may still have required Himmler's personal attention. He often didn't finish that because Himmler often invited him to breakfast. Himmler slept eight hours per day as a rule. And since he was only in a position to go to bed very late at night, he hardly got up before 9 to 9:30 in the morning. The first one of his collaborators he saw on the occasion of his breakfast was Dr. Brandt. During that breakfast Himmler gave Brandt his first orders; to send teletypes, to register telephone calls, or to write letters sometimes. These are matters which Himmler had considered during the course of the night. Immediately after breakfast Himmler wanted to see his entire mail so that Brandt was always pressed for time because he couldn't deal with that before breakfast. In addition he had to report about his own mail, too. Himmler was in the habit of wanting to decide all matters by himself and, therefore, this mail comprised a number of handwritten letters, the contents of which were reported to him by Brandt since the reading of these letters would have taken up too much of Himmler's time. Afterwards - well, now we are almost approaching noon time and Brandt had to take care of orders given to him during breakfast and, in addition, register telephone conversations and look through the rest of the mail and sort it out. Lunch was usually at 1400 hours.
During that Himmler, for the first time, saw all these persons whom he ordered to attend conferences for that day. Lunch mostly lasted for three quarters of an hour. Then Brandt usually got into difficulties with time because, on the one side, the mail coming from the Ministry of the Interior was just coming to his desk and, in addition, the visitors which had been ordered to see Himmler, in overestimation of Dr. Brandt, personally thought that they owed him a visit, too. It was often painful to watch how Dr. Brandt, who himself wasn't very versatile, who was rather awkward, and in addition didn't have much opportunity to tell these people how little time he really had for them. In addition the gentlemen from the various offices waited, who had brought the mail to Himmler's office and who wanted to speak about a number of details. Dr. Brandt could only help himself by writing all these matters into his stenographic note book, hoping that when bringing this mail t Himmler he would find the right note at the right moment.
Q Now, when did Himmler dictate his letters?
A That varied, His quietest time of work was either late at night, but he really didn't like to dictate then because he didn't want to overburden his secretary. He mostly dictated during the morning hours, after Dr. Brandt had already brought his mail to him. He often dealt with it immediately, and so it happened that the letters which were written by the secretary during the course of the afternoon only received Himmler's signature at the last moment when the messenger already waited for the mail to go to Berlin. Himmler attached value to mail being transported in the speediest manner. Dr. Brandt received the file of letters which were signed by Himmler only at the very last moment, and was then able to sign the copies. Himmler sent often many letters simultaneously to a number of agencies but he only signed one and left the rest to Dr. Brandt or me during the time I represented Brandt. It was often only possible to sign very hastily since the messengers were already waiting at the train. I can recall a number of cases where the train had either to be stopped, although that of course was a difficult matter because the train was also a train meant for Hitler, Goering and Ribbentrop, as I mentioned before;
or that we had to sand a car to catch up with the train, a car that had to cover hundreds of kilometers at a time, to catch up with same train at some other station. The telephone conversations of Dr. Brandt were extremely numerous. I can remember that during the time I represented him, I once had between sixty and seventy telephone conversations, and it is to be assumed that the number of telephone conversations in the case of Brandt at least was equality high.
Q Now, witness, you said that secret mail was also received and that this secret mail was shown to Himmler immediately. Is that true?
A Yes. Himmler attached great value to receiving mail without delay.
Q Now, after such secret mail arrived, it was possibly shown to Rudolf Brandt immediately?
A Yes, The folders were opened, and the mail contained therein was put on Dr. Brandt's desk, and he then saw to it that the top secret matters were immediately turned over to Himmler's batch of mail, inasmuch as these top secret matters were addressed to Himmler personally. Of course, there were top secret matters addressed to Dr. Brandt, which he himself opened. In the case of secret mail the following measures were applied: In the cases where the letters bore Himmler's address, and only the secret stamp then Dr. Brandt would open them. If, however, in addition they bore the remark "personal" then they were treated as very top secret matters (Geheime Reichssachen).
Q By personally, you mean for Himmler personally?
A Yes, in that the address read to "Heinrich Himmler, personally." Q Now, witness, you observed how Rudolf Brandt worked daily. Can you tell us in what way he dealt with this mail which you say was very extensive? Could one say that in general he studied the incoming letters, principally as one looks at a letter which one receives in the course of a day, that he considered them and reached a decision? Or what are your observations?
A Considering the extent of the incoming mail which alone was submitted by us, because, in addition to having to consider the letters coming from the ministry office, and considering the great value which Himmler attached to receiving the letters immediately, it was completely out of the question for him to read all these things.
In the rule, and that was true in my case, too, he merely read the most important words, and once he fund out that this letter was meant for Himmler personally he put it aside immediately. Mail which was really read by Dr. Brandt, as far as I observed, comprised all these letters which he didn't have to submit. He was able only to look through these letters late at night, mostly after supper. Then he also dealt with dictation as far as he himself had to dictate any letters.
Q Now, how about the outgoing mail? The letters which Himmler signed personally which were sent by Rudolf Brandt, be it a copy of an accompanying letter, to third persons? Did you assume something of the same nature or what were your observations here?
A. I already attempted to describe what the procedure was with those signatures which Himmler made before the departure of the courier train. There as a rule it was impossible to study these orders or letters by Himmler. It sufficed for us to see that Himmler has given his signature. After that he expected us to take the rest of the work from him and sign the copies meant for other offices.
A. But you concede that Rudolf Brandt read more carefully the letters which were addressed to him?
A. As far as he did not recognize already in the morning when working at the letters that his address was only used instead of Himmler's address, and so far as he did not submit the letters which were directed to him, he read it, but he only had time to do that late at night.
Q. Did you observe that Himmler dictated letters and then told the secretary she was not to sign it with Himmler's name but the name of Rudolf Brandt, and why did he do that, if he did?
A. I had that experience at first in my case. I was very surprised at first to receive teletypes which contained orders by Himmler and bore my signature, although up to that time I had no knowledge of then whatsoever. That can be explained by the fact that Himmler made an enormous amount of decisions personally. This procedure on the other hand he did not like to admit towards men of a lower rank, that is, if he was not concerned with the chiefs of the department but just ordinary men in the SS.
Q. You mean to say if I understand you correctly that he put his signature on letters only if they were to important people of the Party or the SS?
A. Yes, that was the rule because they had to be people who even formally could expect to get signatures from him. Otherwise he often sought this way out. When I found that out in my case, I also make the sane observation in the case of Rudolf Brandt.
Q. Now, I believe we have spoken enough about the technical way in which the nail was handled. Now I should like to ask you what Brandt's position in the personal department really was.