A (continued) This action started in 1936, was continued in 1937, and I then read - I could not hear anything further about it - the final end of that action because the War had started. All of these actions as that action in Detroit, as well as the little settlements in the form of little tubercular villages, do not solve the entire problem if it isn't done on a mass scale and there is no doubt about the fact that the tubercular problem has not been attacked properly in the world today. That is only one reason tuberculosis cannot be compared with any other contagious disease - diphtheria, cholera, typhoid. These epidemics have a shorter course which quickly get their victims. If that had been the case then we would have progressed much farther with the fight against the tuberculosis problem. The tragical thing in that problem is the manner of the disease itself, the slow tricky course. That is why, according to my knowledge, there is no where in the world a law which asks for the final isolation of tuberculosis sick and which safeguards that course. Such plans are being considered, however, during all congresses dealing with tuberculosis all over the world. As far as I know nobody has embarked on the final step and I think the reason is the slow tricky course of tuberculosis and that in spite of the fact that tuberculosis is regarded in its mortality second place of all serious diseases.
Q In addition to that letter of 18 December 1942 about which we are speaking now did you take any more steps in order to frustrate the plan by Greiser, namely to liquidate all tubercular Poles and in particular did you turn to Hitler or Himmler personally in that matter?
A No I didn't speak to Himmler at all throughout the entire War.
Q How about Himmler?
A I spoke to Himmler on various occasions but that was about one year later. At that time I had no official relationship to Himmler as yet and I didn't know him. Had this happened one year later when I already had official contact with Himmler and had I known him better I wouldn't have written a letter. Then I would have approached Himmler personally and I would have been able to frustrate the action without having to write a letter. Having written this letter I received a report through Mr. Greiser very shortly thereafter that Himnler had withdrawn his order and that finished this affair for me.
I was only informed to the effect that everything was handled in Warthe-Gau orderly as regards examination and list of Poles in Warthe-Gau.
Q Who sent you this report that this plan had been withdrawn on the basis of your suggestion?
A I heard that from Hohlfelder as well as Perwitschky.
Q These were the two gentlemen ----
A Well, Hohlfelder was the Commanding Officer of the X-Ray Battalion and Perwitschky was the business manager of the association for planning tubercular control.
Q Did you gain knowledge how it really came about that this plan was rejected and, in particular, do you know that Himmler had said that Hitler himself had to make a decision and do you know that Hitler himself accordingly decided that this plan be given up for the reasons which you, Dr. Blome, have stated in your letter to Greiser? Did you gain knowledge of that later?
AAt that time I only learned from Professor Hohlfelder and Perwitschky that the reasons stated in my letter had moved Himmler to withdraw his order. As regards the letter of Himmler I only gained knowledge here in this courtroom because of the document and I am, therefore, very grateful to the Prosecution for not having kept this letter from me.
Q Witness, when you say that this plan of Greiser's had been frustrated because of you, I must remind you of what Prosecution has said here on the 9 December in this court room. The Prosecution said at that time "We shall bring evidence which will show that the program was being executed at the end of 1942 and the beginning of 1943." And by that the program of the liquidation of the tubercular Poles was meant. "Furthermore, that on tho basis of the proposal by Greiser and Blome many Poles had been mercilessly exterminated and that, furthermore, others had been removed to remote camps where there were no possibilities or curing them, where there were no facilities provided for them, where thousands met their death." These were statements made by Prosecution. I must again ask you very definitely did you at any time later hear that on the basis of these tuberculars were in effect exterminated?
A No. The assertions of the Prosecution are not true. Within the framework of this tubercular action in the Warthe-Gau nothing happened to one Pole. On the contrary he was medically decently treated.
Q Can you even maintain this your assertion when you remember that the co-defendant Brandt, Rudolf Brandt, has stated in one of his very numerous affidavits, namely the affidavit of the 24 October 1946, that and tried to incriminate you in this point. This is the affidavit of the defendant Rudolf Brandt which can be found in the Document Book of Prosecution 9 as Document 441, Exhibit 205. It is the last document of this volume. Here Brandt says and I want to put that to you and I quote: "At the end of 1942, and the beginning of 1943, Greiser carried out the extermination of the Jews in the Warthe-Gau and also the execution against the tubercular Poles was brought to an end simultaneously with the Jewish action. According to my memory as a result of the suggestions made by Blome and Greiser between eight to ten thousand Poles were exterminated." You remember that during an earlier session it had already been maintained that the defendant Rudolf Brandt had substituted eight to ten thousand Poles by the word "numerous Poles." What, Dr. Blome, do you have to say about this affidavit of Herr Dr. Rudolf Brandt?
A I cannot be made responsible for the correctness of such an affidavit by Dr. Rudolf Brandt. I gained the conviction today that Rudolf Brandt has signed everything that was submitted to him by the Prosecution. I, therefore, cannot be made responsible for any incorrectness in his statement. I know of no case - I know of not even one killing and I am convinced that if the assertion of Rudolf Brandt, or the assertion of Prosecution, would be correct, namely that many Polish persons had been exterminated, then the Prosecution, just as in the case of the sulfonamide experiments, would have been able to get witnesses from Poland because I am sure it wouldn't be difficult to do that if thousands of Polish persons had been liquidated to get members of their families to testify here in this court room about their crimes.
Q Dr. Blome, it can be seen from the many documents which had been submitted that in the later years, especially in the year 1944, numerous persons had been exterminated in the concentration camps because they had lung diseases. Did you know anything about that up to the time of this trial and do you have any reason to believe today that these killings can be brought into connection with the plan of Greiser from that time?
A There is no indication for that. When at a later date as for instance in Hadamar, Polish tubercular patients were killed there is no indication that in any way can be connected with Warthe-Gau. During the last year when I was internish in camp of Darmstadt I found out for the first time that any killings of tubercular patients had taken place and I learned about the Hadamar proceedings according to which so and so many tubercular patients had been killed. That is the only time I heard about these things and what I heard about here during the trial.
Q. Do you remember, Doctor, that in the euthanasia institution, Hadamar about which you have been speaking, not only 30,000 insane, from the year of 1941 to 1944, had been killed, but also as it says "numerous Poles and Russians from the beginning of June, 1944, until March 1945? That can be seen from the document book of the prosecution 16, Volume 16, Page 52. The document has the number 1116, Exhibit 415. These "rumor us Russians and Poles" were supposed to have been tubercular patients. Altogether, more than 400 tubercular Poles. If I understand and interpret your answer correctly, you have no indication show that this letter is, in any way, connected with the plan of Greiser from that time?
A. No, that is out of the question.
Q. Before leaving this chapter I should like to put a final question to you which, in sure way, is connected with it. Do you know that in the Third Reich a plan had existed at one time to exterminate the intelligentsia of Poland? How did you gain knowledge about such a plan and what did you do about it?
A. That was approximately in the year of 1941 when I hear about it. I either received a letter from Dr. Conti, by accident, or one of the gentlemen of the Party Chancellery approached me. I can't tell you that exactly. Dr. Conti had made the plan and special preparations had to be made, or rather were to be made, in order to sterilize the Polish intelligentsia class. The purpose of this undertaking was to weaken the Polish power of resistance for the entire future by rubbing them of their leading class. I immediately fought against this plan in the most severe manner. I defined my position toward it in writing and saw to it that my attitude on that question went to Reichsleiter Bermann of the Party Chancellery. I gave detailed reasons for my point of view. Among other matters I started in my letter that it would be insane and it would. be highly inconsequential to point to any crime in a plan which was made by a certain Dr. Kaufmann, using press and radio for that purpose, and then simultaneously execute such plans oneself. Regarding these plans of Dr. Kaufmann - German press reports were concerned with a plan whereby a certain Dr. Kaufman in the United States of America publicly was to have recommended that after a victory ever Germany a large part of the German nation be sterilized.
That was a press report which was generally published in Germany and, if I recollect rightly, it was also broadcast ever the radio. Whether this assertion is correct I don't know because I have no possibility of proof. Furthermore, in my protest at that time I pointed out - and I remember that exactly - the following: In future history nobody will ever understand that a victor, after the end of hostilities, proceeds to paralyze the progress of the conquered nation. In history it is nothing new that during the course of hostilities civilians and the population of cities and villages lose their lives themselves, but there is no precedent of any such plans after the nation had already been conquered and nobody will ever find any understanding for any such procedure. Then, one gentlemen from the Party Chancellery told me that Bermann had understood my point of view and approved it. He said that the statements I made were perfectly right. After that I heard nothing further about sterilization up to the time when the indictment was served to me here.
DR. SAUTER: This point, Mr. President, seems to me of importance since it shows the fundamental attitude of the defendant Dr. Blome with reference to the Polish nation and, in connection with this point, I submit to you as further evidence the affidavit of Professor Dr. Boehm which can be found in the Document book Blome, Document No. 4, page 13 and 14. I offer this document as Exhibit Blome #7. The affidavit originates from the University Professor Dr. Hermann Beehm, born on the 27th of October, 1884, Giessen, Liebigstrasse 41. He says on oath, and I quote: I can eliminate the first two paragraphs and I start reading the third paragraph:
"On the occasion of one of these visits, about 1941, Dr. Blome told me, among other things, that the Reich Health Leader Dr. Conti wanted to published sort of a secret order, or already had published such an order, according to which the intelligentsia of the Polish people was to be exterminate by sterilizations.
"Dr. Blome was highly indignant at this plan of Dr. Conti's and told me that he had already taken appropriate steps at the Party Chancellery to frustrate this plan of Dr. Conti's. My conversation with Dr. Blome at that time took rather a long time. Dr. Blome repeatedly declared that such a plan as Dr. Conti intended it was absolutely inhumane and, therefore, had to be prevented under all circumstances."
The further contents refer to the affair of Dr. Kaufmann which I need not read in retail. I ask you to take judicial notice of the entire affidavit.
Before leaving this chapter regarding the action against tubercular Poles I submit to you as a further piece of evidence an affidavit which can be found in Document Book Blome, Document No. 1, page 1 and. 5. This is an affidavit of Dr. Oskar Gundermann, and I give it the Exhibit Number Blome No. 8. Taking into consideration the particular importance of this problem, I ask to be permitted to read this affidavit, especially since I don't know whether the witness that I wanted, Perwitschky, will ever be brought here. This Dr. Gundermann, who was born in the year of 1894, states, under oath:
"From 1929 on I was in the service of the state as state doctor. From 1935 on I was an official doctor and head of the Department of Health in the government district Merseburg. In autumn of 1939 I was ordered by my department to the later Wartheland to serve as official physician. From the summer of 1940 on I was principal medical officer in the department of the Reich governor in Posen.
"The frequency of tuberculosis in the reaction of the Wartheland, was, according to statistics recorded before 1939 - at the time of the Polish health administration - considerable higher than in the German Reich When the administration was taken over, no modern welfare service for T.B. for the whole region existed. Among other things, there were insufficient beds to effect successful treatment and isolation of T.B. patients. The estimates, made on the basis of the statistical material, of infectious T.B. cases, amounted to a round figure of twenty to twenty-five thousand people of the Polish population.
To control this T.B. epidemic the authorities immediately began building 40 health offices with modern welfare centers, as well as sanateria and isolation homes with approximately 2,500 beds for Germans and Poles (the latter under Polish medical direction with Polish doctors and Polish nursing staff.) These were speedily finished. These measures by the office of the Reich governor were supported by the superior Reich authority, that was the Health Section of the Reich Ministry of the Interior. Since, particularly owing to the increasing difficulties arising from the war, the above institutions were able to control the spreading of the T.B. epidemic to a certain degree, but not to get the urgently necessary sanitary measures running effectively, all the medical officers of the Wartheland untiringly continued to warm their superiors and heads of departments of that prevailing danger.
"The whole affair had an unexpected turn in the autumn of 1942 because the Gauleiter and the Reich Governor Greiser supposedly said that in case of necessity he would stop at nothing to check the tuberculosis epidemic in the Wartheland effectively in the interest of the entire population.
"My endeavors to get a clear and authentic statement from Gauleiter Greiser on this subject were bound to be unsuccessful, because between Greiser, who was decidedly hostile to civil servants, and myself, relations were definitely strained, for reasons which need not be discussed here. As, however, I could not leave Greiser's supposed statements at that, I thought it my duty to talk personally to the head of the Department of Health in the Reich Ministry of the Interior and Reich Health Leader, Dr. Conti, in Berlin, about this matter and the whole tuberculosis problem. At the end of October or the beginning of November 1942, I was received by Dr. Conti at his office as Reich Health Leader. I frankly informed Dr. Conti, referring to the state of health in the Wartheland, which was known to him from numerous reports, that I had hear rumors of the above mentioned alleged statement by Gauleiter Greiser. Dr. Conti evaded me in a way, but he admitted that certain plans for a radical solution the tuberculosis problem of the Wartheland were under consideration. As I was unable to get a clear answer from Dr. Conti and could not be satisfied with such information, I immediately called on the deputy Reich Health Leader Dr. Blome. I knew that he dealt with special tuberculosis questions in the Reich Health Leader's Office. From the beginning Blome showed a clearly negative attitude toward any possible solution contrary to human principles of medical ethics. He showed me the draft of A letter addressed to Greiser; I asked him for a few additions and alterations.
"We discussed the formulation of the letter in detail from the point of view of convincing Greiser that an intensive continuation of the health and welfare measures so far taken and a further extension of the health programs up for the fight against tuberculosis could effectively avert the acute danger. The suggestion for a large tuberculosis settlement was particularly discussed. This plan was based on smaller examples, and its final aim was the establishment of a widely spread, but never-the-less closed settlement for tuberculosis patients and their families.
In this settlement, all modern examination, treatment, isolation, and welfare facilities should be provided for the patients and members of their families who might be in danger. In this way it should be possible in a few decades to reduce tuberculosis cases to a minimum. The form of settlement for the endangered family was suggested, because the orderly treatment of tuberculosis and isolation take years and the separation from the family in sanatoria and above all in isolation homes time and again lead to the greatest spiritual difficulties on the part of the patients and their families, and therefore to a delay in the cure. According to experience the danger for the family members is small, since the properly trained, hygienically living, medically attended and nursed patient does not represent any danger worth mentioning for his family. Dr. Blome and I having agreed on the tactics to be taken toward Greiser and on the contents of the said letter, Dr. Blome began in my presence to dictate the draft of a new letter.
"After this conference with Dr. Blome I returned satisfied to Posen, with the conviction that I had done the utmost in accord with my duty to keep on the only medically correct way for the fighting of tuberculosis in the Wartheland. I concluded essentially from the development in the fight against tuberculosis in the Wartheland that the letter of Dr. Blome to Gauleiter Greiser was successful. The regulation about tuberculosis relief having become effective for the whole Reich territory on April 1943, a similar regulation for the protection against tuberculosis could be decreed in the Wartheland in favor of the Polish population. A central office for the fight against tuberculosis was established under the management of a specialist. This office gave the same treatment to the German and to the Polish cases. The preparation of further sanatoriamand beds, especially for the Polish sector, was secured. Especially important was the retention of supplementary food rations also for isolated, so-called incurable cases of tuberculosis. This, too, was granted to the Polish as well as to the German patients. In spite of the difficulties arising from the war, which in the years 1943/44 were increasing from day to day, the proper treatment for each case was attempted. In this connection orders were also given, that in spite of regulations to the contrary regarding the employment of Polish personnel in public offices, a tuberculosis welfare system with Polish doctors and nurses should be established for the Polish population at the Health Offices.
"During my period in office as managing Medical Officer in Posen, until January 1945, no tuberculosis patients were 'liquidated' in the Wartheland as far as I know. I never received an order for such a measure, much less brought one about either directly or indirectly. On the contrary, the office always tried to give all tuberculosis patients proper treatment. Only in the summer of 1946, during my internment, did I learn that there is alleged to have been a concrete order from Himmler for the 'liquidation of incurable Polish tuberculosis patients'".
Then the signature of Dr. Oskar Gundermann and then the certification of this signature in the proper manner.
Q Witness, in connection with this letter I must ask you, is this let in the draft of which Dr. Gundermann participated and which he mentions on a few occasions-- is it the same letter which we dealt with time and again, dated November 18, 1942?
A Yes, that is the same letter and I expressly declare that at no time were there any preparations made for any liquidation of Polish tuberculosis patients.
Q That Dr. Gundermann confirms, too. With that I leave this chapter pass over to another chapter, outhanasia.
MR. HARDY: I suggest that Dr. Sauter give that an exhibit number and offer that last affidavit into evidence. He has not done that as yet.
DR. SAUTER: Thank you. This affidavit made by Dr. Gundermann will receive the exhibit number 8 -- Blome No. 8.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel stated that when the exhibit was first offered. It is received as Defendant Blome's Exhibit 8.
At this time the Tribunal will recess until 9:30 o'clock tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 18 March 1947, at 0930 hours.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 18 March 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I. Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshall, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all defendants are present in court with the exception of the defendant Oberheuser who is absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court save the defendant Oberheuser who is in the hospital and has been excused on account of her illness.
Counsel may proceed.
KURT BLOME - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. SAUTER (Counsel for the defendant Blome):
Q. Witness, you remember that you are under oath?
A. Yes.
Q. Euthanasia - did you have anything to do with it?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any close information about this matter at the time, officially or privately?
A. No. Only about 1941 did I hear rumors that insane persons were being killed in insane asylums. I did not learn anything definite about it.
Q. Witness, you recall the chart which was on the wall behind you some time ago? This chart was drawn up on information given by the defendant Brack. On this chart there was a square with the official position of the Reichs Physicians Leader Dr. Conti. You recall that at the right, next to this square for Dr. Conti, there was a small square with your name.
This gave the impression that you were connected with the organization of euthanasia, that you had some official authority and duties. Will you please comment on this, whether this chart is correct or not.
A. No, the chart is not correct. Dr. Conti was connected with the euthanasia action only in his capacity as State Secretary in the Reich Ministry of the interior. In this capacity I was not his deputy, however. As State Secretary in the Reich Ministry of the Interior Dr. Conti had a different deputy, that was Ministerial Dirigent Dr. Linden, who is therefore listed under the name of Dr. Conti on the chart, which Herr Brack has supplied, as number 253, Exhibit 331.
Q. Doctor, you have already said that in this function you were not Dr. Conti's deputy. Now, I would like to know: Not only Dr. Conti participated in this euthanasia action but also a number of doctors, primarily, government physicians and alienists. These doctors connected with euthanasia - were they under you as Deputy President of the Reich Chamber of Physicians and as Reich Leader of Physicians? Did you have any supervisory authority over these doctors - disciplinary authority and so forth?
A. I did not have any right of supervision or any disciplinary authority over these doctors. The execution of the program was in the hands of the government physicians or the doctors of the insane asylums.
Q. And under whose authority were these doctors?
A. They were under the Reich Ministry of the Interior.
Q. With which you had nothing to do?
A. With which I had nothing to do.
Q. Doctor, you were also Deputy Chief of the Main Office for Public Health in the NSDAP, that is, you held a definite Party office position, and in this functioned the title Deputy Reich Health Leader. Did this Main Office for Public Health, this Party office, have anything to do with the euthanasia action?
A. First, I should like to correct something you said. You said I was Deputy Reich Health Leader in this capacity.
I was forbidden to use this title. I was merely called Deputy Chief of the Main Office. Now, as for the question itself, the main office for Public Health of the NSDAP did not have any part in the euthanasia action.
Q. Witness, in connection with this euthanasia matter did letters with complaints or inquiries and so forth come to the Reich Chamber of Physicians, of which you were in charge, and, if so, what did you do in response to these letters?
A. Any official letters, orders, instructions, statements, and so forth, concerning the euthanasia action did not come to the Reich Chamber of Physicians or to the Main Office for Public Health; however, the Reich Chamber of Physicians or the Main Office for Public Health received half a dozen or a dozen letters from the public in 1940 and '41.
Q. And what was done about these letters?
A. I took notice of these letters and according to instructions from Dr. Conti sent them to the Chancellory of the Fuehrer.
Q. And why did you send them to the Chancellory of the Fuehrer? Why did you send them to that office?
A. Because upon my complaint, when I asked Conti about this action he refused to give me any information, and merely said that this was a seen assignment from Hitler to Bouhler and Professor Brandt. Dr. Conti said that any letters coming to the Reichs Chamber of Physicians or to the main office should be sent on to the Chancellory of the Fuehrer.
Q. What you just said, Dr. Blome, leads me to think that this private inquiry and complaints from the population occasioned you, not officially but as a private citizen, to speak to Dr. Conti about the matter. Is it that on this occasion you asked Dr. Conti whether he knew that the rumors current among the population were true, and that on this occasion you said to Dr. Conti, "If these rumors were true, one would have to try to do something against it." Did you say this to Dr. Conti?
A. Yes, I said something to this effect to Conti, and I requested that we via the Reich physicians leaders should take some interest in this matter. In the last analysis the thing would become the responsibility of the doctors, and it would be said that the doctors were responsible for it, and I did not want that to happen. Conti took an opposing attitude and said that the Reich physicians had nothing to do with the matter, and he was glad of that. As I learned later, this was a deliberate falsehood, for already about at the beginning of the War, as the former Reich Minister Lammers testified here, Dr. Conti had a conference about his planned action with Hitler in the presence of Lammers.
Q. The witness Dr. Kosmehl, who was examined here at the beginning of the case, told us that at that time you took further steps in the matter of euthanasia, especially in connection with a Professor D. Klare; perhaps you can give us some details about this. Who was De. Klare, and soforth?
A. Professor Klare is a well-known tuberculosis research worker in Germany, who worked especially on tuberculosis in Children. He was a party member who was greatly respected everywhere, and one of the founders of the National Socialist League of Physicians. I had been corresponding with him for years about many questions which bothered both of us, chiefly concerning developments in the Party. I therefore corresponded with Dr. Klare in 1941, also but the euthanasia action, and I agreed with him that on the basis of his influential position he was to write to Conti, Bormann and others, and demand information about the euthanasia action, and protest against the methods of this action. It was impossible for me myself at the time to get any details about the procedure. Otherwise, I would certainly have attempted to intervene in some other way. I would, have been able to do so in a different and energetic form, if the euthanasia action had in any way been in my sphere of responsibility, for example the tuberculosis action in the Warthegau, which I prevented. That was not the case. I was not even able to learn anything about the death of a relative of mine who died in an insane asylum, and I considered Professor Klare the most suitable person to obtain information and to intervene, and Dr. Klare did actually write several outspoken letters to the persons whom I have mentioned, and he sent me copies of these letters.
Dr. Klare, however, did not have any success with these letters. Only thru Dr. Klare did I learn anything definite about the euthanasia action, and, as has already been said, I went to see the Reich Physicians leader -- I beg your pardon that is the wrong term in this case -- I went to see State Secretary Dr. Conti. I have already told you this step was unsuccessful.
Q. Dr. Blome, in the question of euthanasia, did you have this same basic attitude as Professor Klare?
A. On the question of euthanasia itself I had a different attitude than Dr. Klare. Dr. Klare was opposed to euthanasia in any form. But, as for this euthanasia action, I shared his opinion. Dr. Klare and I, at least from our personal point of view, considered this action illegal, especially because no law had been issued and published where one would plainly find a legal basis for the whole action; and I believe that it was Dr. Klare who pointed out that in the procedure used at the time there was fraud since a false cause of death was given in the death notices.
DR. SAUTER: I may ask the Court that I may submit an affidavit of Professor Klare in this case. It is in the document book Blome, page 6, Document No. 2, and I shall name it Exhibit No.9. And then another document in the Blome document book , page 9, Document No. 2-A, an extract from the "Berlaner Illustrierte Nachtausgabe" of 21 November 1936, which I shall give this document the Exhibit No. 10. The affidavit of Professor Klare, Document No. 2, Exhibit No. 9, is certified according to the regulations, and Professor Klare says the following about euthanasia, the killing of the insane:
"I, (Professor Klare) first heard about euthanasia (killing of insane persons) from laymen (among others from my sister, Mrs. Agnes Klare of Karlsruhe). I thereupon collected evidence of these proceedings which were in a way incomprehensible to me -- above all death announcements from various newspapers and told tho Deputy Physicians' Leader Dr. Blome about my objections "It is therefore true that during my stay in Berlin I repeatedly discussed the question of euthanasia with Dr. Blome.
"On the occasion of these discussions Dr. Blome made remarks to the effect that, though euthanasia should not be principally rejected, an irreproachable legal basis should be created for it, and that euthanasia should never be applied in the form of a secret proceeding.
"On the occasion of such a conversation, Dr. Blome told me that he had discussed this problem with Reich Physicians' Leader Dr. Conti, and the Dr. Conti had explained to him that the Chamber of Physicians and the Office of the Physicians' Leader had nothing to do with the matter that, as far as he (Dr. Conti) knew, it was a direct order from Hitler to Reichsleiter Bouhler and the defendant Dr. Brandt. Any interference of the Chamber of Physicians and the Physicians' Leader in that matter was impossible he said and, besides, would be entirely useless, "I told Dr. Blome of my intention to apply to leading personalities in order to achieve a change or discontinuation of euthanasia.
Thus, I tried to get into touch with Dr. Brandt and the Propaganda Ministry."
I may remark this, Dr. Brandt obviously is Karl Brandt, not the defendant Rudolf Brandt. I continue.
"On the occasion of his visit to Bethel Dr. Brandt intended to have a detailed discussion with me. For reasons unknown to me, however, this visit did not take place. This meant that my attempt to get into direct contact with Hitler via Dr. Brandt did not succeed. My correspondence with the Propaganda Ministry was forwarded to Reichsleiter Dr. Bermann. Without being summoned in order to explain my point of view personally, as I had wished, I merely received - indirectly via the Reich Health Leader Dr. Conti a reprimand. My last attempt, a long oral discussion in order to induce Dr. Conti to intervene, was likewise without success. As far as I remember, I sent my correspondence in this matter to Dr. Blome for his information or talked with him about my vain endeavors.
"It is true the order of Reich Physicians' Leader Dr. Conti not to concern himself further with the matter, made it entirely impossible for Dr. Blome to take effective steps in the question of euthanasia. Dr. Kurt Klare."
And then follows the certification.
The next Document, Exhibit 10, I shall not read. I ask the Tribunal to take judicial notice of it. I have submitted this extract only in order to show you that this Professor Dr. Klare as early as 1936 spoke in exactly the same way on the euthanasia problem as he felt during the War, according to the affidavit which has been read.
Q "Witness, Dr. Blome, did you learn at that time or later, that the point of view which Dr. Klare took, viz, that there should at least be a legally published law, was shared by many other doctors, and that many doctors had the point of view that if such a law were issued then one could not have any serious objection to this law?
A. Yes, I know that, and I frequently discussed this matter with Professor Klare. Klare, as well as I, held the point of view that if a law had been made public at that time, the German people would have adjusted themselves to it just as they previously had submitted to the sterilization law in 1933 and 1934. That is still my conviction today.
Q. Dr. Blome, we know today that your co-defendants Professors Brandt and Brack dealt with the Euthanasia question; did you discuss the Euthanasia questions with such persons as were officially connected with this problem; in what way and with what success?
A. One day, possibly in 1971, as far as I recall, a few months before the Euthanasia action was stopped, Dr. Conti told me that he had arranged a conference in Munich with Professor Brandt in the presence of the leaders of the Chamber of Physicians, where Brandt was to explain the Euthanasia action. The meeting took place then in the Munich Arztehaus. As far as I recall, Brandt was not present, but the defendant Victor Brack was there as amtsleiter in the Chancellery of the Fuehrer, of which Reichsleiter Bouhler was in charge. As far as I recall, Brack said that there was a Hitler assignment in respect to the Euthanasia action, and then Brack said all possible safe-guards had been taken whereby only those cases were eliminated, which were really very serious and were proven to be incurable. As far as I recall, Brack pointed out that the church and a part of the population were opposed to this action, but that, on the other hand, large groups of the population did nevertheless approve the action. I believe that on this occasion, Dr. Brack also said that the action was discussed with Ministerialrat Dr. Linden in the Reichs Ministry of the Interior. This Dr. Linden wras the representative of the State Secretary Dr. Conti in the Reichs Ministry of the Interior in the Euthanasia action. Brack also showed a law, or a draft of a law, which had not been published and which was to regulate Euthanasia was to be handled after the war; I believe that this was only a draft and not a finished law.
After this meeting in Munich, I again suggested to Dr. Conti that we of the Reichs Chamber of Physicians should try to intervene; but Conti again said that so far he had not participated, that he had not been called upon for participation, and it was completely hopeless for us to try to intervene.
Q. Dr. Blome, this discussion you had in 1941 with Brack in Munich in the Aerztehaus, I assume is identical with the discussion which you mention in your affidavit of 25 October 1946; is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. On October 25, 1946, Document 471, Exhibit 238, in Document Book 11, you described it at that time just as you have described it today.
Now, witness, did you learn whether in this Euthanasia action foreign workers or prisoners of war, etc., were included?
A. I can give no information about that, I did not learn anything about it in the following time. The foreign workers brought into Germany were supposed to be healthy, that is capable of working. As far as I know, there were frequent medical examinations of the foreign workers, sometimes already when they were recruited in the occupied territories. If a foreign worker was discovered to be incapable of working or had an infectious diseases, he was rejected. If a foreign worker, during his stay in Germany, became insane I believe that he had to be sent to a mental institution; but I never learned anything about this, as questions of employment of labor were not the business of the Reichs Chamber of Physicians.
Q. Witness, you said that Dr. Conti, the Reichs Physician Leader, repeatedly on several occasions said to you that this entire matter was not the concern of the medical profession, that it did not have anything to do with this action, and that he said clearly that you, as head of the Reichs Chamber of Physicians, should keep your hands off of it; did you subsequently learn that other doctors in official positions contacted Dr. Conti about this Euthanasia action, and that he always took the same attitude to these other doctors, that he always said that has nothing to do with us, we are not competent, we cannot intervene did you know of such cases?