A. What you just said is not quite true. The party did not have any immediate influence on the Reich Chamber of Physicians. It attempted year after year to get such influence, even at the very beginning, in the years 1933 and 1934, the Reich Physicians' leader, Dr. Wagner, successfully opposed, these efforts on the part of the party. At that time we knew of the claim to complete power that the party exercised. It repeatedly happened that on Ortsgruppenleiter, or a Kreisleiter or eve n a Gauleiter on his own initiative interfered in medical matters, and particularly in matters of health insurance in a certain way. Then Dr. Wagner saw to it that the regulation was passed according to which such excesses on the part of the political leaders and interference in matters that concerned physicians were forbidden. This prohibition was very important for the physicians in general and was of great help. Dr. Blome, as the subsequent representative of Dr. Wagner's ideas, wanted to separate the two organizations in so far as they should not be in charge of the same person. He frequently brought this up for discussion and tried to have his way in this. He discussed this once with the Oberbefehlsleiter Friedrichs in my presence. He was the political deputy within the party leadership of Reichs Leader Bormann. Bormann himself and the leading personages refused, however, to carry out this separation of the Reich Chamber of Physicians and the main office for public health. Dr Bormann even went so far as to forbid even any mention of this office and threatened his subordinates in the party chancellery with being fined if they brought it up.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. Servatius for the Defendant, Karl Brandt.
Fitness, you have said that in 1942 when Brandt became Reich Commissioner, Conti became head of the Civilian Health Service under Dr. Brandt. Is that true?
A. I said that this morning, yes.
Q. What was the official relationship between Conti and Brandt?
A. The relation was one neither of subordination or superiority. The so-called Fuehrer Decree of August, '42, which named Dr. Brandt as the Reich Commissioner for health and medical matters had its deeper meaning in the fact that certain contradictions and overlappings between the medical inspection of the Wehrmacht on the one hand and the civilian sector on the other hand should be removed. It had happened -
Q. Witness, do you know the Decree?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. I shall show it to you again. It is Document NO-080, Exhibit 5, Document Book 1 of the Prosecution. Fitness, if you will look at number 3 in the Decree, that is the confirmation of what you have testified.
A. Number 3 is right. The question at that time was essentially that Dr. Brandt should try to straighten things out both in the material sphere and in the question of personnel.
Q. Then if you said "Conti's position under Brandt," you mean this relationship according to the Decree?
A. Yes, that is what I meant.
Q. You called Professor Brandt the Reich Commissioner. Is it right that this Decree only appointed him General Commissioner, not Reich Commissioner?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Later he became Reich Commissioner.
DR. SERVATIUS: No further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Dr. Froeschmann for Viktor Brack. Witness, you were business manager of the main office for public health and of the Reich Chamber of Physicians, is that true?
A. No, I was not business manager. I was legal adviser in the syndicate of these two.
Q. You spoke this morning of the plans which Conti had about the socialization of the medical profession and the abolition of the free choice of the doctor.
A. That is true.
Q. Did Conti give you the assignment to deal with these questions from the legal point of view?
A. No. In conversations during lunch or in other such social situations, we discussed this matter because for a considerable period of time Dr. Conti was much concerned with it.
Q. Witness, assuming that Conti had given you such an assignment, do you agree with me that this would have been a difficult problem because there are many factors to be considered pro and con?
A. That could be, yes. It was a very extensive work if I may so express myself. I never read it in detail, and since it did not fall within my confidence, I am only superficially acquainted with this whole matter.
Q. Would you in this case in the legal treatment of this question of the socialization of doctors have spoken of a program?
A. I can't say.
Q. What do you understand by the word "program"?
A. Under the word "program" I understand it in this context, that deliberate measures were taken toward socialization. In this case, at any rate, I do remember that this was to be taken in a bargain more or less. Dr. Conti did not think much of the plans that Dr. Ley was pursuing. Rather Dr. Conti wanted to pay this high price for Dr. Ley's support to become State Secretary in the Reich Labor Ministry which he was not yet at that time, and because that was his highest ambition, namely, because in this way he would become essentially closer to the Reich Health Leader, and in addition to the other offices that he occupied -- he was already a State Secretary in the Reich Ministry of the Interior -- he wanted to become a State Secretary in the Reich Labor Ministry.
Then his power as health leader of the German Reich would have been complete, and it would have only been a small step to his final goal, namely, Reich Health Minister.
Q. Then, Witness, if I understand you correctly, by "program" you mean a definitely defined field of work which is dealt with according to a certain method. Is that about right?
A. That could be, yes.
Q. Now what evidence do you have that the Reich Government had a Euthanasia program?
A. I have no proof of this program because I did not know of this program.
Q. Then why do you use the term "Euthanasia program" here in the courtroom as a fact?
A. I used this term "program" because I have here found out from Dr. Thoma that there was actually such a program, and I had to assume that it was a fact.
Q. Then if I understand you correctly, you took over a subjective idea of the lawyer of the Defendant Blome, and that is why you used the words "Euthanasia program"?
A. That is true.
Q. Witness, when you heard about Euthanasia at all, did you have anything to do with the Government plans on this question?
A. That was not very possible because -
Q. Let's not use the word "program" anymore. It is incorrect.
A. All right. I heard of these plans only here in my internment camp or in the course of this trial.
Q. Consequently, the legal basis of Euthanasia is as far as it was carried out unknown to you?
A. No, it isn't.
Q. Do you know of the decree of Hitler of the 1st of September, '39?
A. I don't know about it.
Q. Then I may tell you briefly the contents of this decree.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, unfortunately, I do not have the decree here, but it is Document NO-630. At the moment I do not know the exhibit number, but I shall find it out.
Q. Witness, this decree says the following: Reichsleiter Bouhler and Professor Dr. Karl Brandt are given the responsibility of extending the functions of certain doctors mentioned by name to the extent that incurably sick persons may be given a mercy death.
Have you understood me?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you agree with me that this was merely an authorization to certain doctors to be allowed to grant a mercy death?
A. This decree that you are referring to was never in the interpretation of this decree, if it reads as you quoted it to me, I should like to agree with you. I am of the same opinion.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor please, I object to any answer to this question by the witness. The witness did not see the decree; he doesn't know anything about the decree. Giving his opinion of such a decree is strictly out of order.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection is well taken. The decree should be procured if Counsel desires to question the witness concerning it.
DR. FROESCHMANN: I beg your pardon. Excuse me a moment. Then for the time being I shall go on to another question.
Q Witness, when were the complaints received which you mentioned this morning?
A I do not remember the exact date. It must have been around the time, 1941. I assume it was about that time that two or three inquires of this sort came to our office.
Q '41, '42, you mean?
A Yes. That is right.
Q What was containted in these complaints?
AAs I said this morning, they were inquiries of the Reich Physicians' Leadership asking whether they knew transports were taking patients from one mental institution to another and that in the course of these transports, patients died an unnatural death. This is the general sense of their complaints there are doubts about. They said from information they had received, they knew people had died.
Q Did these complaints refer to the killing of insane persons?
A Yes. At least one had to assume that it concerned such matters.
Q Did the contents of the these complaints indicated a punishable action, that is, the killing of human beings?
A That is conceivable, but in the course of a year, many complaints and matters of a similar nature came to these two offices. These complaints did not make any particular impression, particularly, if one knew that most of these things were sent by people of bad faith or crack-pots.
Q Witness, is it true that there were frequently complaints dealing with the fate of some relative which were sent by persons who themselves were psychopathic cases?
A That I cannot judge.
Q Why did you send these complaints to the Party Chancellery?
A I explained that this morning. That was the general procedure, just as a few years previous to that, complaints came in regarding the implementation of sterilization. There is a certain similarity between these two questions. Sterilization affected insane persons and the inmates of mental institutions are also insane. Consequently, our treatment of the two matters was the same.
Q That is your personal opinion, Witness?
A Yes.
Q You had nothing further to do with the Euthanasia program in practice, did you?
A No.
Q You did not know the reasons Euthanasia was introduced in 1939. In your testimony, did you not confuse the Party Chancellery with the Chancellery of the Fuehrer?
A No.
Q Did you know the Chancellery of the Fuehrer was competent to deal with such complaints from the population?
A No. In the course of the ten years that I held my office, we only had individual dealings with the Fuehrer's Chancellery. I do know that between the Fuehrer's Chancellery on the one hand and Chancellery of the Deputy of the Fuehrer, later called the Party Chancellery, there were disputes. They lay close together geographically speaking. Only one street lay between them in Munich. I went with such matters to the Party Chancellery, particularly since Dr. Bormann, who was a deputy, permitted such things.
Q If I understood you correctly, you said this morning, that you do not know what the Party Chancellery did with these complaints?
A That is true.
Q Then consequently, you cannot say that there was no reaction at all to these complaints?
A That I cannot say, but so far as we knew, there was no reaction.
Q Did you learn from another conversation that certain church circles sent complaints to the Chancellery of the Fuehrer or to any other agency, the Reich Ministry of the Interior, for example?
A No. I knew nothing of that.
Q Then, Mr. President, if I may, I shall go back to the document of 1 September 1939, NO 630 P.S. I should like to show this document to the witness.
MR. HARDY: Might I ask defense counsel what his intention is in giving this decree to the witness? Is it his intention to ask this witness, a question, as a expert or a lawyer, as to what effect this decree or letter of the Fuehrer had?
THE PRESIDENT: What is counsel's purpose in examining the witness on the stand in connection with this document?
DR. FROESCHMANN: Mr. President, I merely wanted to ask the witness one question, whether the decree of the Fuehrer leads to the conclusion that there was a program.
MR. HARDY: No objection, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
Q Witness, have you read the decree?
A I just read it, yes.
Q Can the conclusion be drawn from this decree that there was a program of Euthanasia?
A No. I do not believe that inference can be drawn. It is not to be seen from this document alone. In addition to this, there might have been additional orders because it says here the authority of certain physicians is to be enlarged.
Q I have no further questions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any other examination of this witness by defense counsel?
(no response)
If not, the Prosecution may cross-examine the witness.
CROSS - EXAMINATION
Q Witness, during the course of this examination I may well delve into the subject of Euthanasia as a program. I am sure that I, as well as my distinguished colleague, Dr. Sauter, considered it as such.
You referred this morning on direct examination that Hitler issued an order appointing Blome as Deputy to Conti. When did he issue that order?
AAt the moment, I cannot tell you the precise dry. At any rate, it was in April, 1939.
Q Now, what was peculiar to the nature of the duties of Blome by this order?
A I do not quite understand your question.
Q What I am driving at, Witness, is did Hitler outline what the duties of Blome were in connection with the various positions held by Conti?
A No.
Q Well, now at that time.
A Hitler did not know Blome personally so far as I know. He knew nothing very precisely about Blome's personality. If in this decree, Blome is suggested, then this suggestion came from Reichsleiter Bormann who was greatly interested in Dr. Blome. He knew him well.
Q I assume you recollect you stated this morning that Hitler ordered Blome to become the Deputy of Conti. Now I put to you this question. Did not Blome have some sort of position of influence with Hitler or how did Hitler happen to appoint him by decree to be a deputy to Conti?
A That came about through the fact that Reichsleiter Bormann was very closely connected with the late Reich Physician Wagner. Dr. Wagner, the evening before his death, let a letter to Hitler in which he did not name my specifice successors to himself, but he mentioned in his letter, five or six loading personalities in the world of medicine whose names might be mentioned as successors. From these four or six persons who were here mentioned, Reichsleiter Bormann chose Dr. Bolme. He knew all the people mentioned very well. He decided in favor of Dr. Blome. Bormann then told Hitler what his opinion was in this matter.
Q What gave Hitler or Bormann reason to believe that Blome could be faithful to the principles of the Reich Physicians' Leader Wagner and to the NSDAP?
A. Blome and the late Reichs Physician Leader had not only official connections with one another, but were friends. Blome knew precisely what Wagner's goals and wishes were with regard to the future of German doctors. Dr. Wagner's last and greatest task was to be as he told me, to restore the honor of German physicians, and to remove the right of lay healers to practice; that is to say, in the future only medical trained doctors were to treat patients. Blome completed this work of Dr. Wagner's; he alone is to be thanked for the fact that lay practitioners were refused to practice, because Blome successfully concluded the last negotiations on this subject.
Q. What was Blome's relationship to Bormann?
A. So far as I can judge, I believe that they came to know one another in the course of their work.
Q. Bormann was a Nazi, wasn't he?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. So was Blome?
A. He was also a party member.
Q. Blome wore the golden party badge, didn't he?
A. Yes, but Blome did not eear that golden party badge as of the year 1923, which is worn by party members from 1 to 100,000. But, Blome was one of those party members who received the golden honorary badge in 1942 or 1943 along with other personages in the public life, who, although they were not members of the party, received membership as honorary members.
Q. Now, Doctor, as I understand it, Conti's position was one in which he had three duties: This was, as Reichsarztfuehrer, Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer, and Secretary of State for Health Matters in the Ministry of the Interior; is that right?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Blome was his deputy only insofar as Conti was the Reichsarztefuehrer and Reichsgesunsheitsfuehrer?
A. That is right.
Q. Now, how and in what respect did the Ministry of Interior supervise the duties of the Reichsarzrefuehrer or Reichsgesunsheitsfuehrer?
A. The Reich Ministry of Interior had the functions of the police Ministry. It was to implement laws in every sphere and so far as this matter is concerned, to implement laws for health security in contrast to the States job in matters of health, which was called the securing of health. The party leadership of the NSDAP saw its task in the realm of health as the leader of human beings in the matter of health. Now in the differentiation, State vs. Reich Ministry of Interior, this differentiation determines also the respective spheres of competency. The Reich Ministry of Interior was superior in this respect to all professional societies that had anything to do with health, not only German doctors but also the professional societies of druggists, dentist, and so on down to nurses; to that extent the Reich Ministry of Interior, dentist, and so on down to nurses; to that extent the Reich Ministry of Interior was the supervisory agency over the professional organizations.
Q. Now, you state that the Office of Reichgesundheitsfuehrer or Reich Health Leader concerned themselves with health laws; is that right?
A. No, that I did not say. The job of Reich Health Fuehrer, the Reichs Physician Leader, were of a purely professional nature, and differed from the Reich Health Leaders tasks only in the fact that Dr. Conti was elevated to the party to supervision over health matters every where; thus the latter included the leadership over dentists, doctors, nurses and everything, but legislation regarding these persons was not include in this. The right of legislation was invested in the Reich Ministry of Interior.
Q. Well, now, when Wagner was alive did he also hold the position as Secretary of State in the Reich Ministry of Interior?
A. No, When Dr. Wagner was still alive he was only Reich Physician Leader, and in his party functions he was called the deputy of the deputy of the Fuehrer in all matters of public health. In other words, at that time, there was no Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer, Reich Health Leader, but Dr. Wagner as Reich Physician Leader was the advisor in matters of health of party leadership, particularly of the Reichsminister Hess, and in a lesser sense also of the Fuehrer, namely, Hitler.
Q. Conti was the successor to Wagner as Reichsarztefuehrer, is that right?
A. Yes, that is right.
Q. There was no connection between that task and the one of the Ministry of Interior?
A. There was no connection between the two; there was a connection only to the extent that the Reich Minister of the Interior had to agree if a new professional leader of any sort including the Reichs Physician Leader was appointed, for example, if a Druggest Leader or Dentist Leader were deposed and a new was to be chosen, then the Reich Minister of the Interior and the Party Chancellery had to give their approval of a new election. This, in the case of the Physician Leadership was not the case because of the rank of the profession of physician and was elected direct by Hitler. The leader was appointed and after he was appointed the Ministry of Interior had only supervisory powers.
Q. Now, you stated here in direct examination to Dr. Sauter, that Wagner -- as a matter of fact you stated, was able to succeed in governing and controlling of laws against hereditary diseases. Well, now, it must follow that his successor, Conti, as Reichsarztefuehrer, would have had the same capacity regarding Euthanasia, wouldn't it?
A. The question is not correct in this sense. Dr. Wagner as Reichsarztefuehrer did not have the possibility of implementing or carryind out the laws on hereditary diseases. He supervised only the State medical officers all the way down to the local medical officials. I did not say that he carried out that law this morning. I did say that Dr. Wagner, from the numerous complaints that came from the population, collected the most important points of view that spoke in favor of not carrying out the law to stringently, and that after a lecture, to Hess and Hitler, he took plenipotentiary powers which permitted him to investigate the boarderline cases.
Q. Well, then it is true that Wagner succeeded in governing and controllin to some extent the execution of the laws against hereditary diseases, was it not?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will take a recess.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Now, witness, what do you understand that Euthanasia included?
A. I was not closely connected with this problem. I only dealt with it privately. I read a book about it in which the author spoke in favor of Euthanasia; and in the result I agreed with him. If someone is incurably ill, and is a constant burden to his relatives and to the population as a whole, then I personally would consider it right, in individual cases which have been carefully investigated, for the suffering to be ended.
Q. Now, witness, I have asked you what did you understand Euthanasia in Germany to include? You have given me the theory of Euthanasia as you understand it, but did you understand that this Euthanasia went beyond that of persons incurably ill and subjected other persons to extermination?
A. I cannot judge that. I did not deal with this question even once.
Q. Well, now these complaints that you mentioned regarding the Euthanasia problem. Did you see those complaints yourself?
A. Yes, I saw them.
Q. When?
A. In the course of the time, 1941 or 1942, perhaps.
Q. Where did you see those? Was that in your office which was part of the Reichsarztfuehrer's office?
A. This office was not separated, whether it was the office of the Reichsarztsfuehrer or the main office. The Reichsarztsfuehrer and head of the Public Health were the same person and, consequently, all the mail was received together. Only the address indicated which office was meant.
Q. What was the nature of these complaints?
A. I have already stated that doubts were expressed as to the accuracy of a report received by the relatives, according to which the patients had died a natural death.
Q. Well, now these reports as I understand it were shown to Blome, weren't they?
A. I do not know at the moment, but I assume that I showed them to Blome.
Q. Did you have any discussion with Blome about them?
A. I assume so.
Q. What did he do about it?
A. He had no idea about this any more than I did. He no doubt recommended that these complaints should be turned over to the Party authorities.
Q. Well, now was it normal that Blome should ignore such complaints as this - of a nature that people were getting killed?
A. It was not expressed positively enough, so that one could actually assume from them complaints that people were being killed. On the other hand, as I said this morning, there were a great many letters devoid of a motive which were due to some inference from the radio or from propaganda, but since neither the Reichs Chamber of Physicians nor the Main Office for Public Health had ever dealth with such things - I expressly mentioned this morning the case when the first Reichsaerztefuehrer Dr. Wagner specifically prohibited the discussion of this question - we turned these complaints over to the party which, through the Gau or Kolis Offices could inquire locally an investigate. That was the customary procedure.
Q. Now, these various positions Blome held as Deputy - they were concerned with health in Germany - health natters. That was his specific concern, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Doesn't it seem logical that he would be concerned with such a thing as euthanasia?
A. He knew as well as I did, that this problem specifically was not to be discussed; and was not to be dealt with, and I assume that here the position of the church played a very important role; and Blome was no doubt just as careful as I was, as a lay man, and did not take any part in this problem. Besides, Blome was only in Munich at certain intervals of about four weeks so that it is quite possible that I did not talk to Blome at all about these individual complaints.
Q. Well, now, you have stated that Dr. Wagner was able to influence and control the execution of laws against hereditary diseases, and that he did such in the position of Reichsaerztefuehrer. It also follows that Conti as Reichsaerztefuehrer, and Blome, as his deputy, could have interfered in such a matter as this and would have been equally as successful as Wagner had been.
A. I did not say that Dr. Wagner in his capacity as Reichsaerztefuehrer could influence the sterilization law. Dr. Wagner was quite an extraordinary person and an authority who in every respect, in contrast to his successor, Dr. Conti, was recognized everywhere.
Dr. Wagner, in contrast to Dr. Conti, had the opportunity of seeing Hitler at any tine he wished and to express any wishes he had to Hitler personally and he was listened to. Conti, on the other hand, as his successor, during his five years as Reich Health Leader and Reich Physicians' Leader, with the exception of his appointment, was not able to speak to Hitler for ten minutes on health matters even during the war. Therefore, if it was not possible for Conti, who had taken over the full authority of Dr. Wagner's office - if it was not possible for him to see Hitler, although he knew him personally, then it was impossible for Blome to see the Fuehrer, Hitler, personally since they did not know each other at all. The person of Reichsleiter Bormann was always in the way, who decided whether some one was to be admitted for a personal report or not. Generally, he prevented this, and reported himself what he considered right.
Q. Now, you state then, that Wagner did not govern and control the execution of the laws against hereditary diseases in his position as Reichsaerztefuehrer, but merely, because of the fact that Wagner, being a humane person and being of strong character, brought his influence and reputation to bear in that respect. Is that right?
A. Not exactly. As I said, Wagner was also he adviser for all health matters of the Party, and, in this capacity, he obtained a hearing when there was a question of undesirable conditions in this questoin - in the execution of the sterilization law which he wanted done away with.
Q. I won't argue anymore about the position of the Reichsaerztefuehrer, but it was my understanding and still is my understanding that Conti's position was that of advisor to the Party in health matters. Isn't that right?
A. Yes, but no use was made of it.
Q. Of course, it is true that Conti acted favorably toward the euthanasia program, isn't it?
A. I have learned that only here in Nurnberg.
** March-A-JP-21-*-Karrow (Int. Von Schon)
Q. And it is suggested from our interrogation that Blome lacked the character and strength to object to such a program if he had such feelings. Is that right?
A. I assume that Blome was just as little informed about this problem as I was, and could not do anything about the problem. In any case, I know that in the course of the time while I was in Munich no other medical referents in these agencies mentioned these things.
Q. Then, do you submit to me, witness, that Conti, in his triple capacity - that is, Secretary of State, Reichsaerztefuehrer, an Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer - that whenever he was engaged in any shady activities, that those activities only arose but of his position as Secretary of State in the Reichs Ministry of Interior and not in his position as Reichsaerztefuehrer and Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer. Is that it?
A. That is my opinion, but beyond that, Conti was a personal confidant of the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler, who was his direct superior as Reichs Minister of Interior, and there were many things which did not have anything to do with the Reichs Chamber of Physicians.
Q. Well, I do not suppose you were sufficiently well informed in your position in that office, being an attorney and not a doctor, to know that Blome also had a friendly relationship with Himmler? You didn't knew that, did you?
A. No, I knew only the contrary. I know only that the relationship between Blome and Himmler, at least until 1942 or 1943, at least the whole first time, was very poor. Once I heard that in conversation with Dr. Wagner. I do not know the exact reasons.
Q. Well, now, to go into the character of Dr. Conti, or a moment. From what I gather, Conti was a poor unfortunate fellow, disliked by everybody. Brandt didn't like him. Blome didn't like him. I presume that Handloser didn't care for him. What was he doing there?
A. The German doctors wondered about that too. Everywhere in medical circles Conti was extremely unpopular. He had a very small group of intimate friends in Berlin, but even they fell away from him, one by one, so that, at the end, aside from Kaufmann, who has been mentioned, and a few others, he had not friends.
Q. It is unfortunate that Dr. Conti is unable to defend himself. Now, did Blome have any connection with racial problems? Did he do anything in that regard in his capacity as Deputy Reichsaerztefuehrer and Reichsgesundheitsfuehrer?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Well, for instance, suppose a person was a half-Jew and it was desirable that person or his ability be utilized for the benefit of the Reich. Was Blome in a position to declare that person a full-blooded Christian or whatever it may be that might make it necessary for him to be regarded as a good subject?
A. It is possible, if he had such an assignment. Whether he could decide such a thing himself I cannot say.
Q. Well, what gave him that authority? What was the border of his duty that gave him that authority?
A. Not, his position as Reichsaerztefuehrer, nor as Deputy Head of the Main Office for Public Health. That was a special assignment in addition to these offices.
Q. Well then, do you know that Blome was concerned with some of these racial problems?
A He no doubt discussed such things in individual cases and worked on them, but whether he was empowered to decide, I do not know. I myself once submitted a case to him. During the war in France I had a comrade whom I met in the field; after we had gone through a few battles together he entrusted himself not to the company commander but to me, personally, because he was one of the ten people whom I had as combat squad commander. He told me that he was a half-Jew, that he had arranged for quarters and that he wanted to get married, but the Nurnberg laws made it impossible for him, since the marriage was forbidden. I promised this comrade at that time that I would take care of this matter, since I was always able to observe him personally and knew that he was a good comrade and a brave soldier. When I came back from the front I took up the matter, and shortly afterwards this man came back too. He had been released from the army after the campaign in France. He visited me at my office, and he told me about his case again. I received him immediately, and I discussed the details with him. I had learned that in those cases when a person had distinguished himself in the war or had been promoted because of bravery, an exception could be made in the rule against marriages. Since this man had been promoted because of bravery I considered the case suitable for me to take his part. It happened that Dr. Blome was in Munich on that same day, having come from Berlin. I took my comrade to Dr. Blome, and I told him of the case. He immediately declared himself willing to do something to further the approval to marry. I lost sight of the case then, because it was settled in a different way.
Q Well, then, it is true that Blome could engage in extremely important activities outside of the scope of his job as deputy to Conti, isn't it?
A Yes, that is true, and I know that Blome had an assignment in addition to the Chamber of Physicians and the Office for Public Health; for example in the field of cancer research.
Q Now, witness, you stated this morning that these restrictions on Jewish doctors originated with some other governmental office. You don't recall, offhand, what other governmental office they originated in, do you?