This Volume 1 is, however, not available anymore to the Tribunal. I am therefore of the opinion that without the presentation of Volume 1 - without the possibility of determining how the commission was organized which carried out these interrogations and what was the assignment of the commission it cannot be determined any more if the affidavits contained in these two columns can be regarded as documents in accordance with the Charter. In addition to this, a large part of the documents have not been signed because those who were to have signed them were unable to sign the documents.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal. In this connection obviously the defense counsel knows what has happened to # 1. I sent up to the IMT Document Room and asked them to send down this exhibit. This is what they sent. I didn't know # 1 was not there. However, at this time I am only asking the Tribunal to take judicial notice of this document and not admit it as an exhibit. Article 9 of Ordnance 7 states: "The tribunals shall not require proof of facts of common knowlege but shall take judicial notice thereof. They shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of any of the United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various Allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and the records and findings of military or other tribunals of any of the United Nations". This says that "the tribunals shall..." Now, this particular report is an official report of an army investigation team for war crimes and I submit that to the Tribunal for consideration.
DR. FLEMMING: If the report is the report of an officially recognized committee it could only be determined if Volume 1 was available. Volume 1 several days ago does not exist. When Attorney Pelckmann wanted to look at it, it was not available either. However, he knows that the three volumes, as he informed me, were never submitted in their entirety before the IMT. I therefore request the Tribunal to also examine this question: If the three volumes were not submitted in their entirety to the IMT these two volumes, in my opinion, cannot be used without Volume 1 at this time.
MR. HARDY: Your Honors, may I point out that it is my opinion in answer the accusation that this is not an official committe I feel very strongly that the United States Army is an official organization and they set put these investigation teams particularly for this purpose.
These volumes are the result of their work. If you will read the top section of the affidavit you will see the amount of work that they went through to procure these affidavits and the caution they took. I also submit the fact that this has been introduced before the IMT, is in the evidence of IMT, and a. record of IMT, and under Article IX I ask that the Tribunal take judicial notice of these documents.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection will be overruled. The certified copies may be filed before the Tribunal. The certified copies should carefully show the volume and page of each exhibit and also refer to the document book by appropriate number.
MR. HARDY: Thank you, you Honor. In due course I shall submit certified copies.
At this time I wish you would refer to Page 31 of your Honor's document book in connection with this affidavit. This is an affidavit of Marion Dobrowski.
DR. FLEMMING: Yes, Your Honor.
JUDGE SEBRING: As I understand it the affidavit appearing on page 29, is a true multigraphed copy of an excerpt taken from the confidential report of the Atrocities Committee at the Dachau Concentration Camp: is that true?
MR. HARDY: That is correct, Your Honor, And certified by the Chief of our document center.
JUDGE SEBRING: That appears there as Exhibit 32, is that not correct?
MR. HARDY: Not, it is Great Britain Exhibit No. 582, Your Honor. Great Britain Exhibit 582.
JUDGE SEBRING: I do not mean the exhibit before the International Tribunal, but the exhibit as it now appears on the front of the document book.
MR. HARDY: Number 52; that's correct, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal directs that it will take judicial notice of the exhibit as you had it on the first page this morning. After that it will be sufficient to take it in our notes.
MR. HARDY: Thank you, sir. May I read the section in this testimony of Marion Dabrowski that I want you to take particular notice of, Your Honor? On page 29, you will find that this is the testimony of Marion Dabrowski, taken at Dachau, Germany 13 May 1945. Question number 1; Marion Dabrowski was asked his name, and his answer -- he was a Catholic priest. I now request the Tribunal to turn to page 31, the secon question:
Q. Were you forced to submit to the malaria experiment while you were a prisoner at Dachau? A. Yes, three times by mosquitoes and once by an injection of blood from a malaria patient.
Q. Did you volunteer or offer yourself in this experiment?
A. Never
Q How did it happen that these experiments were performed upon you?
A It happened through the camp secretary's office. At that station, prisoners who were communists were told to present the names of 100 prisoners for the malaria injections. These communists said that the priests are the most useless among the prisoners, so we priests were told that 100 of us had to go forward to get the malaria injections. The hundred names were finally chosen from amongst the priests by alphabet.
Q Were 100 Catholic priests forced to submit to the malaria experiments?
A Yes
Q Were you given an opportunity to protest your being subjected to this experiment?
AAt the beginning a protest would have been like a death sentence. There was a sudden change at the end of the year 1943 in our general treatment. They were not officially allowed to lodge a protest. It was easier to have a word, and protest against further experiments.
Q Did the protest do any good?
A In my own case, and that of one of my fellow priests, the protest was successful, and I escaped a fifth injection, after the fourth I had. I know, however, in many cases, a protest was useless even at that time.
Q What result did this malaria injection have upon you, and the other priests who were subjected to malaria injections?
AAt first we got a fever for about three hours. After three hours, we felt extremely cold and started shaking with cold. Then the fever started again, and the whole process continued sometimes for us many as nine days. My own brother, who is also a Polish priest, and is till in this camp, had, for nine days, daily higher fever, as high as 41 or 42 centigrade. Generally they were in a very bad state of health and there were several cases of death.
Q Over what period of time were you subjected to these four experiments?
A They began the experiment on me in December 1942 and the last was back in June of 1943.
Q Who performed these experiments upon you and the other priests?
A That was SS Obergruppenfuehrer, Professor Schilling.
Q Did Dr. Schilling ever tell you by whose order he was making these experiments?
A No, he never said anything to us. He treated us like dogs. When I protested to Dr. Schilling in person, I tried, at first, to talk French to him, because he knew that language; and it is easier for me than to talk German. He told me, in fact, he stopped me at once, and said, "In this camp we speak in German." When, after that, I protested in German language against further experiments on my body, he said, "You have no right to protest, you are a prisoner here, and I shall report you to the Commander of this camp for your protest, and you will see how hard the consequences will be for you.
Nevertheless, I kept on protesting. I had an order from the Camp Commander later on that, every time Dr. Schilling wanted me at the hospital, I had to appear without fail at the hospital at his disposal. I have witnesses that the facts I just related are exact."
I will not read any more from this document, Your Honor. I merely introduce this to show that these men subjected to these experiments were by no means criminals or volunteers. At this time, I respectfully request the Tribunal to call the witness August Heinrich Vieweg to the witness stand.
AUGUST HEINRICH VIEWEG, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q Will you repeat this oath after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q Witness, your name is August Heinrich Vieweg, is it not?
A Yes.
Q When and where were you born?
A On the 17th of September, 1895, at Hannover.
Q What is your occupation?
A I am a book printer
Q Witness, will you kindly tell the Tribunal where you are presently living?
AAt the time, I am living at Bamberg.
Q Witness, at this time -- are you now a prisoner in one of the military government prison?
A For the time being, I am a prisoner.
Q. Would you kindly tell the Tribunal why you are now imprisoned?
A From the Bamberg prison, I have been brought here in order to heard as a witness.
Q Witness, you do not understand me. Why are you, or why were you, in the Bamberg prison? For what reason have you been placed or put into the Bamberg prison?
A I have not yet been sentenced. I am in pre-trial confinement in the Bamberg prison.
Q For what reason are you in pre-trial confinement?
A The Bamberg police have accused me of engaging in black market activities and because of serious mischief.
Q Thank you, witness. When were you first arrested by the Nazis and placed in a concentration camp?
A I was arrested in May 1940 and taken to the concentration camp at Sachsenhausen.
Q When were you transferred to the Dachau Concentration Camp?
A I was sent to the concentration camp at the 16 th of October 1940, coming from Neuengamme.
Q While you were an innate at the concentration camp, did you ever undergo any medical experiments?
A The concentration camp at Dachau; I was used for malaria experiments by Professor Dachfinney.
Q How many times were you subjected to the malaria experiments by Dr. Schilling?
A On five occasions I received five cubic centimeters of malaria-bug infective and later, -
Q Would you kindly tell the Tribunal what effect these experiments had on you; that is, did you have high fever, serious illness, and so forth?
QQuite often I ran a very high temperature. I reached a very exhausted condition, and after the injection I received large doses of medical drugs, quinine, ephedrine, and many others. I was in bed for weeks, and after one certain treatment in the course of 1943, 1944, 1945, and 1946, there were 20 to 26 occasions when I had malaria attacks, so that, for a long time I was unable to work.
Q At the present time, do you have re-ocurrences of this malaria fever?
A In this last year, I was in hospital from August 1st to 15th, again with malaria attacks.
Q How many recurrences of malaria have you endured since you were experimented on by Dr. Schilling?
AAfter my treatments in the experimental station had been concluded, I stayed with Dr. Schilling, and there were twenty occasions when I was treated for recurrences.
Q Are you completely cured now, witness?
A No.
Q After you had undergone the various experiments at the hands of Dr. Schilling, did you then become a worker in Dr. Schillings' laboratory?
AAfter my first so-called immunization treatment had been concluded, the Chief Medical Officer of that Department sent me over to Dr. Schilling's department for laboratory duties.
Q On what rate did you assume those duties
A I am afraid I can't tell you that exactly, but it must have been on or about August of 1942.
Q What were your duties in Dr. Schilling's experimental station?
A In Dr. Schilling's Department I was in charge of animals. In other words, I cultivated animals: white mice and canaries; in fact, I was in charge of that department.
Q Did you have any other or additional duties, such as file clerk or typist, witness?
A For a certain period, I substituted for the Clerk and I was in direct contact with Dr. Schilling on various occasions. I had a certain amount of contact with the Chemistry Department purchases from Dachau, and also I was in command of battle fields in the surrounding district of Dachau; and I dealt with work done by the commander.
Q While with Dr. Schilling, did you have the opportunity to read any of Dr. Schilling's correspondence?
A I had frequent occasions to see the reports which Dr. Schilling sent in every three months, and sometimes I saw the answers which Dr. Schilling received from Berlin, as well as some other chemical manufacturers
Q Witness, can you recall the whom those reports were sent, in Berlin?
Berlin?
A These quarterly reports which Dr. Schilling used to prepare, went to the Gruppenfuehrer or Obergruppenfuehrer, the Reich Medical Officer: Dr. Grawitz.
Q You have referred to the fact, today, that you saw some of the answers Dr. Schilling received from Berlin; who was the originator of those letters that Dr. Schilling received from Berlin?
AAs far as I can recollect, these replies came to Prof. Schilling from Dr. Grawitz.
Q Do you know where Dr. Schilling received his material to be used in this research, that is injected blood, in the malaria Experiments, fly eggs, and so forth?
A I can remember that Dr. Schilling received malaria fly eggs, so -called eggs, from which he bred, to other flies, from Duesseldorf; they came from an insane asylum, but I cant remember the name, and some from Rome medical institute at Rome that used to receive eggs. In fact, his material used to come from Berlin. According to my memory, it came from Prof. Rose, and also from Athens; but I am afraid I can not recollect the name there.
Q Do you know whether Prof. Rose had any correspondence with Dr. Schilling?
A I remember in connection with the previous breeding we were not too successful, and subsequently a number of letters given to a stenographer by Dr. Schilling came before me, and they were addressed to Prof. Rose. He was making certain explanations in ti, regarding certain types of insects, in connection with which my name was used. I am certain it went to Berlin and I am certain that answers were received on numerous occasions.
Q Did Dr. Schilling ever send any reports of these experiments to Prof. Rose, to your knowledge?
Q Whether he sent reports about Malaria patients, I don't know. At any rate, so far as about these fly breeding experiments are concerned, he had sent reports. I know that for certain.
Q Witness, during the time you were with Dr. Schilling's Labratory Department, were there any visits from distinguished visitors from Berlin or other places?
A I remember for certain only this: Der. Grawitz, he came to see us on about three occasions, coming from Berlin. He came to see us first. A number of other visitors also came to see us, but I can not remember the details.
Q Can you remember any of the names of the visitors that came to visit Dr. Schilling's experimental station?
A Unfortunately, I am unable to remember them. I only know that one of my assistants, a certain Dr. Kurt Ploettner, received visits from Standartenfuehrer Sievers, and he carried out negotiations with him. This man, Sievers had taken the so-called Block No. 3. He had a room in our Department, where he carried on his writings; and Standartenfuehrer Sievers visited him several times and he visited our department and went through it. As far as any other visitors who visited our department are concerned, I can not remember any.
Q Doctor -- Witness -- We will now turn to Experiments on Sea Water. Do you know anything about experiments at Dachau with sea water?
DR. PELCKMANN; May I raise an objection, please? I beg not to admit that this witness should be examined about sea water experiment questions. Undoubtedly, we know about this witness for the last 24 hours. The document book of the prosecution on sea water experiments however has only reached me five hours ago.
On the basis of the affidavits which are contained in that document book, I shall have to put certain points to this witness, in order to examine, whether his statement is correct; because these affidavits which are contained in that document book are coming from people also who have seen something in connection with these sea water experiments. And it is possible, that certain contradictions may be made here, regarding this.
I must ask, therefore, that the questioning of this witness in reference to sea water experiments should be postponed until I have had an opportunity to see the documents in Document Book No. 5, and examine them together with defendant Schaefer.
And, I should consider it as particularly sutiable if the examination of this witness would not take place until the prosecution, too, have submitted the affidavits from this document book. Otherwise, you see, I should have to wait until after the presentation of these affidavits from Document Book No. 5, and then ask that this witness shall be called again. So that I could prove contradictions on the basis of this affidavit.
MR. HARDY: May it please the Tribunal, I have several answers to Defense Counsel. First of all, we filed General Secretary Document Books on sea water experiments within the requirements of the Tribunal; that is, twenty four hours within which we wished to present the document books on sea water. This should have been placed in the hands of defense counsel yesterday, so I presume it was delivered to the Defense Counsel Information Centre.
Secondly, as we explained in the procedure the first day of the trial, we said it would not be possible -- pardon me -- we said it would be necessary on several occasions for testimony of witnesses to over-lap: That is, when we called a witness on Malaria, that at the same time this witness can testify as to the sea water and other experiments.
It was necessary for us at that time for convenience and in order to save the Tribunal's time here. We can not call the witnesses back daily as we arrive at each experiment.
JUDGE SEBRING: May I ask the Secretary-General's office if he has a record which shows when these document books were placed in the Defense Counsel Information Center? I haven't received it.
MR. HARDY: The Secretary-General has the document books in his hand now, your Honor.
DR. PELCKMANN: May I say something, your Honor? My colleagues and I myself received the document book with these three affidavits at 10:30 a.m. to day.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, at this time I want to impress upon the Tribunal that it will be next to impossible for the prosecution to call witnesses, as I said before, to testify from one experiment to another and only call them after we have presented the documents on a particular experiment. In that case we would have to wait and hold the witnesses until the presentation of all documents and evidence has been completed because each witness that we will call can testify to more than one experiment. Furthermore, we have complied with the regulations of the Tribunal end filed the Document Book. However, as to what the witness can testify to now, I feel that the position the defense takes, that they have not had the document book, is immaterial at this time. These document books are placed in the Defense Information Center in boxes containing the defense counsels' names. If they did not go to the Defense Information Center after recess last evening, then naturally they would not have the copy until this evening.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you say that they were in the boxes at that time?
MR. HARDY: I can not say that, Your Honor, inasmuch as it is not our duty to deliver them to the Defense Counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand that, but you can't say that, can you?
MR. HARDY: No, I can't, your Honor.
DR. PECLMANN: This morning, after most of my colleagues had already entered this courtroom to participate in the session, I received this document book at 10.30. The document books for the other colleagues had just arrived. They were not in the shelves for the defense.
THE PRESIDENT: Examination of the witness may proceed at this time concerning sea-water experiments but the witness may be recalled at some later date soon, possibly Monday, for cross-examination upon those letters by the defendants.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q Witness, do you know about the experiments conducted at Dachau with sea water?
A In the year 1944, I do not remember the exact month any more, a department was created in the so-called Block 3, Stage # 1, which previously had been occupied by malaria patients. This department was prepared for so-called sea water experiments Forty to sixty, I do not remember the exact number any more, gypsies were confined there and the door was locked.
There was a nurse in this ward who had previously been a nurse with us, I can't recall his name any more, and several Luftwaffe officers appeared, also some non-commissioned officers, and they took over the management of the whole project. This department in itself was isolated; none of us were allowed to enter there. However, from my section I was very well able to observe this department. These patients were confined there; they were also allowed to take some exercise in the yard during the first initial few days and then they told us that they were being nourished with Luftwaffe rations. As far as I can remember, this ration was continued for two weeks and then this nourishment was withdrawn. According to the stories we heard, because, after all, we wanted to know what was going on there, we were told that these people had been divided into three or four sections and that various methods of treatment were given to them. One part of them was to be given only pure seawater; another part was to get distilled sea water; and the third group was to be given sea water mixed together with some tablets. I can only remember this because we were told about it. But I have seen the following: that in this ward a certain amount of unrest began to develop. I mutiny almost broke out there at one time. They beat up their nurse. One nurse then was released by other personnel. I can remember that from this ward on various occasions people were carried out on stretchers who seemed to be in a very excited condition. In part they were then brought to other sections in order to be treated there. What happened to them there I do not know. On two or three occasions, I believe to be able to remember to a certainty, a stretcher was carried out by the nurses with a cloth and a blanket over it and these stretchers were carried to the so-called morgue. The whole experiment, as far as I can remember, lasted approximately 8 weeks and then the whole section was cleared out again.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will take a recess for 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken).
FOLLOWING RECESS.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HARDY:
Q Witness, before the recess your were describing in detail sea water experiments. Do you have any more details to add?
A No.
Q Witness, they conducted these sea water experiments in one of the rooms in the malaria station, is that correct?
A No, this room officially belonged to the hospital, however, we had occupied this room with our patients and then had to clear this room in order to enable the sea water experiments to be carried through.
Q Were you ever in that room where they were conducting the sea water experiments?
A No.
Q Witness, you stated to the Tribunal that you observed various people being carried out of this room on a stretcher covered with a sheet and a blanket Can you tell the Tribunal what position you were into observe these people being carried out on a stretcher?
A I could go about the hospital as feely as I liked, because we had the patients in a few barracks and the Laboratorium were in another barracks close by.
Q Then you personally saw these people being carried out of the room in which the sea water experiments were taking place? Witness, did you hear the question?
A Yes, these people were carried out of the room where the sea water experiments were conducted through the corridor and through the street, which led from one barracks to another.
Q Would you say, from your observation, that these people being carried out on the stretcher from the room in which the sea water experiments had taken place - that these people were seriously ill or were they dead, witness?
AAccording to my recollection, some of them were very exhausted and were carried out of the sea water experimental chamber to other departments of the hospital. In two or three cases, I can say with certainty that they were carried to the so-called hospital morgue.
Q Witness, you also stated that you know about the details of the experiments that you know of the type of water given to the prisoners. Could you kindly tell the Tribunal how you gained that knowledge?
A The knowledge regarding these details I gained from conversations, after the conclusion of these experiments, which were carried on with the nurse and some of the surviving patients.
Q That is the nurses who worked in the room where the sea water experiments were taking place, witness?
A Yes.
Q Witness, what nationality were the inmates that were used for these sea water experiments?
A That I cannot say. Only gypsies were used for these experiments, coming from various concentration camps, Buchenwald, etc.
Q Witness, we will go back to the malaria experiments for the moment. What was the nationality of the people used for the malaria experiments, what type of people were they?
A The biggest part, approximately two hundred patients, used for the malaria experiments were Germans, another big part were Polish clergymen and the rest were partly Russians, some Yugoslovians and some Poles.
Q Were any prisoners of war used in these experiments?
AAmong the Russians, a great part of them were Prisoners of War.
Q What was the total number of people used in these malaria experiments from your knowledge?
AAccording to my knowledge, during the malaria experiments 1,084 experimental subjects were used.
Q Will you kindly tell us, witness, how many of these subjects used in the malaria experiments died as a result of the experiments?
AAccording to my knowledge there died directly at the malaria station either directly or because of the treatment with drugs, seven or eight. I can describe the details if you like. The first case was an Austrian who afterwards became ill because of these malaria experiments. The assistant at that time, Dr. Bracktel, who was at the same time the deputy physician at the hospital, made a liver puncture and at that time he bled to death.
Q Witness, then you state from your knowledge that seven or eight died from the experiments. Of that number who were dead, was that in the malaria station itself that they died?
A This was the number of dead, who were not transferred by us to another department, but who died at our station or a few hours after they had been transferred to another station.
Q Have you any knowledge as to what happened to some of the other experiments who were transferred to some other station after they were experimented on? That is, did some others die after they were experimented on?
A From our patients, during the course of the years since we had them come to us or observation, I can recollect that another sixty patients died. Whether they died of malaria or other consequences as a result of the experiments, I can not say with certainty.
Q Witness, I want to back-track a bit and ask you why you were sentenced to the concentration camp or why you were placed in the concentration camp by the Nazis? For what reason?
A No special reasons have been given to me. I was asked to appear at the Berlin Police station. I was there for several weeks and after that I was transferred to Sachsenhausen.
Q What was your classification while you were in the concentration camp, that of political prisoner or what?
A I came as a person that had to be safe-guarded by the police and as such was transferred to the concentration camp.
Q You have no idea why you were arrested by the Nazis and sent to a concentration camp?
A Nothing was told to me.
Q When were you released from the concentration camp?
AAfter the liberation by the Americans, I remained for another few weeks at the concentrations camp since there were a number of malaria patients at the concentration camp. Then on the 15th or 19th of July 1944 I left when all other nationalities were transported away from Dachau.
Q Witness, let us go on. Do you have any other details to tell the Tribunal about other experiments that were conducted at Dachau?
A I can testify something about the experiments which were carried out at the Aviation Institute with reference to this Ahnenerbe since I often saw this Institute myself.
Q Would you kindly explain to the Tribunal what you saw at this Institute of the Luftwaffe in the Concentration camp Dachau?
A In February 1942 simultaneously with the opening of the Malaria Station at Block 5, a few blocks were opened for a series of experiments with reference to altitude. Ten inmates, so-called strong men, which had been selected for the malaria experiments by the Camp Administration were then transferred to this department. Later a so-called pressure chamber arrived and these ten patients were experimented upon with high-altitude experiments. I first gained knowledge about this at the time when I was yet in the hospital. On the second of April, 1942, I personally was transferred to the hospital for malaria cases and the ward where I was lying bordered on to the room where to chamber was. I can say that the minute the motors of this chamber started to rotate there was a death-like silence in the hospital since it had often happened that patients or even nurses, who at the time of the experiment, could be seen in to the corridors of the hospital, and were immediately taken to the place of these experiments. These ten patients who were to be the official experimental subjects were really well-nourished, received smokes and as far as we know were the so-called exhibition patients but besides these ten patients a great number of people were chosen at random from the camp and they were always brought to this high-altitude experimental institute. Further, within the framework of this matter I remember that among others a block-leader who as far as I know was sent into the hospital--I think he had pneumonia-was also taken to this experimental station and a few days later was brought to the morgue. In our department where malaria patients were, one day a patient who for some reason had some difference with the Camp Leader Zill, was taken to this experimental station the following day. It was said at the time that he was transferred but next day I found him in the morgue. By rumor I found out that a number of patients on whom experiments were conducted died and were sent to the morgue.
Following these high altitude experiments, at the rear chamber of this room a water basin was installed and there is where the water experiments were carried through. I personally saw this department. I saw the water basin and I talked with the nurses and the chemical personnel who was employed there and whatever I know about it I found out from them. I did not see one such experiment myself, but at one time Dr. Rascher told me on the occasion of a visit at that time I had to deliver a message from Prof. Schilling--and he asked me whether I felt the desire to take a cold bath. That was time they had brought a number of women from the Concentration Camp Ravensbruck to that place. By hearsay I knew that the frozen patients were to be warned by these women. Even with reference to these experiments I know partly from those who participated and partly from the nurses that four patients had died. I was told by a chemist who was working there-he said that one day Dr. Rascher came along and ordered that certain of the men were to be taken along. The personnel was afraid that he was going to carry on the experiments on their persons. He further said that he went with these men who tend to these camp and they took hold of a few people at his desk and went out to the crematorium and at that time out there tried these ten drugs on these persons and then determined whether these ten had a deadly effect on the persons. Later this department was turned over to our Assistant Doctor Kurt Ploettner and as far as I remember coagulating drugs were produced at Dachau. These drugs were tried out in the hospital at Dachau by surgeons but I don't know what success they had. Dr. Kurt Ploettner, a few months before the liberation of the camp with 25 inmates and with the files of Ahnenerbe fled to the mountains where they wanted to produce this drug on a large scale.
Q Witness, are there any other experiments that you know about at Dachau?
A I know that at Block 1 in the hospital--that was the so-called Surgical Block--a number of biological experiments were carried out. That is, a certain number of Polish chlergymen were infected with phlegmones in order to treat them biologically. A number of these experimental patients dies as a result and others survived in the hospital but with amputations.
Q Do you recall who conducted the phlegmones experiments?
A I cannot say that exactly. I only know that a certain Obersturmbannf fuehrer Dr. Schuetz, who worked with the camp doctor Dr. Hoffmann and I remember that the frequent occasions he came to the hospital and had carried on experiments from that department. I was present when Dr. Schütz had a discussion with Dr. Brachtel about one such experiment with reference to gonorrhea drugs.
Q Witness, in all these various experiments you have listed here today, how were the people or prisoners chosen for these experiments?
A The patients for the malarial experiments were chosen by the SS Camp Administration and were transferred to Prof. Schilling at his request. How the other patients for Ahnenerbe and etc. were selected, I dont know. I believe, however, that Dr. Rascher or his employees chose these people in the camp on their own initiative.
Q Were any of these people chosen for the malarial experiments or the other experiments, volunteers?
A No.
Q Were any of these people freed after they had endured the experiments
A No.
Q How did you happen to be picked for the malarial experiments?
A In december of the year 1941, the camp personnel had to appear outside of the courtyard and Dr. Hoffmann, the Camp Leader, chose two or three hundred people from the ranks or the people there. We were the first patients.
Q You mean, witness, that you were merely selected at random?
A Yes. I don't know what the directives were at the time but I think that the Camp Administration settled that question among themselves. I remember at the end of 1943 a directive came from Berlin that only Russians and Poles were to be used for the malarial experiments.
Q When you were selected for these experiments did you consent to be experimented on?
A No. We didn't know what we were selected for. We were selected in December and a card index was made of our names. We were not allowed to leave our block and then from February 1942 onward we were sent to the Malarial Experimental Station and it was only then we knew why we were selected in December. 432 Dr.SAUTTER:
Dr. Sauter, counsel for defendants Blome and Ruff.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Witness, you have to answer a few questions for me, because from your answers so far I am not quite clear about your position. I should like to remind you that the answers which you are giving now are given under oath. You are clean about that, aren't you?
A Yes.
Q Witness, you have started that you were brought into a concentration camp in the year of 1940?
A Yes.
Q And up to the,--and up to the capitulation in 1945 you remained in the camp?
A Yes.
Q Counsel for prosecution has already asked you repeatedly why you were sent to the concentration camp?
A Yes.
Q And then I heard you say that you had no idea whatsoever why you were sent to the concentration camp?
A Yes.
Q And if understood rightly you then said "nothing was told me", is that right?
A Yes.
Q But you must know why you were in that concentration camp?
A I don't know it. Nothing has been told me. I was called to the Berlin Police Headquarters. I remained there for several weeks. I was interrogated, and I was only interrogated about my personal data and then after several weeks one day together with several other men who was in prison there to I was transferred to Sachsenhausen.
Q Witness, Haven't you ever received anything in writing as to why you were sent to the concentration camp?
A Nothing in writing has been given to me.
Q Now, you say that under oath, Witness.