A. Yes.
Q. How was that?
A. I became technical expert referent. Like all the other technical experts and consequently, we naturally did not work quite so closely together.
Q. But did you not continue to be in close contact with Professor Schroeder?
A. Yes.
Q. From then on now was the incoming mail dealt with? As long as you were adjutant you received the mail. Who received it now?
A. The Chief of Staff.
Q. What did he have to do?
A. He looked it over. He decided how urgent it was and he either dealt with it himself or he turned it over to the section chiefs or to the medical chief -- it depended.
Q. Did the section chiefs retain this mail or did they pass it on to the technical expert?
A. The section chiefs looked the mail over and then gave it to the technical expert?
A. The section chiefs looked the mail over and then gave it to the technical expert to be dealt with.
Q. Witness, now let us go back to the time when Professor Schroeder was Fleet physician. Can you give the Tribunal a brief description of the duties of a Fleet Physician?
A. The Fleet Physician is responsible for his Fleet. He was the supervisory medical authority. He was in charge of claiming hospitals, he directed the hospitals, he directed the removal of the wounded, the replacement of drugs and dressings, and all such things.
Q. Can you tell me anything about the extent of the duties, first in the West, and second in the South, and then where Air Fleet Two was used in the East?
A. The Fleet included 100,000 or several hundred thousand men. In the West it included Air District Belgium, Northern France, and Air District Holland, Air District Six, and Air District Eleven.
In the East it was the so-called central sector. In the south Italy, Sicily, Crete, and the North African area.
Q. How many men were in such an Air Fleet, the maximum?
A. I don't know exactly -- several hundred thousand.
A. Perhaps you will speak of the time in the end of 1942 or in the s*** of 1943, what was your office like then?
A. In the spring of '43 the coming collapse in North Africa could already be seen. There was a great deal of work of all kinds to be done. For the very difficult communication system we had to improvise and get along as well as we could.
Q. Witness, you just said that Professor Schroeder frequently went on official trips?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he often at the Medical Inspectorate in Berlin?
A. No, not frequently.
Q. How often do you think he was in Berlin?
A. How often he went to Berlin from the West I cannot say -- I don't know. From the East he went to Berlin once as far as I know. I think that was the beginning of November 1941. In the South -- two or three times.
Q. Well, then from the second area, that was from December 41 to December 43?
A. Yes.
Q. In your opinion he was there in Berlin two or three times?
A. Yes
Q. Can you say whether Professor Schroeder ever represented Medical Chief Hippke?
A. No, he never did that.
Q. Who was the representative? The deputy?
A. Generalstabsarzt Neumueller, unless his chief of staff represented him. 3704
Q. Between Professor Schroeder and the Medical Inspectorate in Berlin were there any close official relations?
A. No.
Q. Was there telephonic conversation two or three times a week with Hippke on one end and Schroeder on the other end?
A. No.
Q. Then if I understand you correctly the conversation was restricted to what was officially necessary?
A. Yes. That was true.
Q. Now, was Medical Chief Hippke ever at the office of Mr. Schroeder?
A. Yes.
Q. In Italy?
A. No not in Italy.
Q. Where?
A. In Russia -- Smolensk once.
Q. And when Air Fleet Two was in Sicily he wasn't there at all?
A. No. I don't believe so.
Q. Now what were the relations between Schroeder and Hippke? It is alleged that there were very close relationship or friendship and comradship and for this reason Hippke told Schroeder about everything that Hippke did.
A. That may have bee the case formerly but as long as I was with Professor Schroeder, from the end of 41 on, in my opinion there was a definitely cool feeling between the two gentlemen. That was probably due to things which have nothing to do with this trial. I do not wish to discuss them in detail but I can confirm that there was a definite alienation. I can also confirm that this alienation had its effect on the office, too. And, any necessary telephonic communication with Berlin was limited to what was absolutely necessary.
Q You described the duties of Air Fleet Physician. Now can you please tell us whether these duties included dealing with research question?
A No. There was not the time or space. The fleet physician, is a definite front position. It has nothing to do with research.
Q Did the Air Fleet Physician have any office which dealt with research questions?
A No.
Q Now, will you please say whether Prof. Schroeder or his office received reports about research work carried out by the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe?
A We received the memorandums for troop physicians. I believe that was the title, "Merkblaetter fuer Truppenaerzte", in which experiences made were presented in a tone and extent adapted to troop physicians with units at the front.
Q Witness, you have said that from the Medical Inspectorate, that is, through Hippke, Schroeder did not receive any reports on research?
A Certainly not.
Q Can you say whether Prof. Schroeder in any other way received knowledge of research and experiments which were connected with the Medical Inspectorate?
A One should not assume that.
Q Is it not true that you personally would have had to know about it?
A Yes, I should think so.
Q Don't you think that Mr. Schroeder would have told you about it?
A Yes.
Q Perhaps you will remember that in October, 1942, in Nurnberg, there was a meeting about distress at sea and winter distress?
A I heard about it later.
Q Was the office of the Fleet Physician 2 represented at this meeting?
A No, not to my knowledge, but I must add that from September, 1942 until January, 1943, I was in the Luftwaffe Hospital in Munich.
Q Were you sick? Were you a patient there?
A Yes.
Q Can you say whether Prof. Schroeder or his office received a report after the meeting about what had taken place there?
AA report?
Q Yes, I mean a report. Any information, any report from some one who had participated?
A That is hard to say.
Q Or, let us formulate the question like this. When you came back nothing was said about this meeting at Nurnberg?
A I don't know the time exactly but some times that was received.
Q That isn't what I want to know. I'm coning to that. But I mean, for example, whether at luncheon or supper it was discussed?
A. No.
Q The Medical Inspectorate later issued a report of this meeting.
A Yes.
Q It was distributed to the higher offices of the Luftwaffe. Do you remember whether the office of Air Fleet 2 received this report?
A Yes, I believe that we did receive it. If I saw the original...
Q (Interrupting) Can you remember when that was?
A I can only figure out what time it must have been. It must have been the Spring of 1943.
Q Why do you think that was the time?
A If I hear that the meeting was in October it always took a few months until such a report reached the troops.
Q Your chief said today that he read this report "Distress at Sea an Winter Distress" but he said it was only a very small excerpt. What was the situation? Let us assume it was in March or April, 1943?
A On 10 May 1943 Tunisia, was lost. That is well known. When the Tunisian Theater of War was eliminated, in the days immediately beforehand, from the 5th to the 8th or 9th of May, we had so much work with removing the wounded from Tunisia that we had to time to do anything else. There were about 10,000 wounded over there.
Q Now, the Prosecution has shown us that Generalstabsarzt Schroeder read this report very carefully and that he must have noticed the names of Rascher and Finke which are given in a note at the end of this report. Did you read the report yourself?
A No.
Q Did the names Rascher and Finke mean anything to you?
A No.
Q They were Stabsarzte of the Reserve. Are you of the opinion that a Stabsarzte of the Reserve would have to be noticed by the Medical Chief?
A They might be. We had many Stabsarzte of the Reserve, who in civilian life, had a very high position.
Q But one could not have said that of Rascher?
A No, no.
Q If Rascher had been a famous scientist, then one night have noticed this name?
A Yes.
Q But if a man's name is Rascher and he happens to be a Stabsarzte or the Reserve in the Luftwaffe, then he is not a very important man, is he?
When did the fighting in Sicily begin. Wasn't that May, 1943?
A No. Both sides had to consolidate first.
Q Can you say whether Professor Schroeder attended the meeting of consulting physicians in May, 1943?
A No, he did not.
Q You know that for sure?
A Yes.
Q He was in Italy, was he not?
A Yes.
Q And do you know whether he attended the meeting of consulting physicians in 1942?
A 1942?
Q Yes, 1942?
A No, he did not.
Q Where was he then?
A He was with the office then. He attended only one meeting. In 1944, I believe it was.
Q Yes, that is on the list.
Well witness, you have said that the office of the Air Fleet Physician received no reports about research connected with the Medical Inspectorate?
A Yes.
Q And that you consider it impossible that Professor Schroeder, in any other way, learned of research and experiments of this kind?
A Yes.
Q You conclude this from the fact that under the relations existing between you two he would have spoken to you about it.
A Yes.
Q Now, did you yourself hear anything about experiments on human beings connected with such research on high altitude, cold and typhus questions?
A No, only now.
Q Did Professor Schroeder say anything to you about it?
A No. I heard that from a third party.
Q Now, witness, you accompanied Professor Schroeder on an official trip to Paris?
A Yes.
Q I believe that was in May, 1944?
A Yes.
Q Did you go to Strasbourg?
A Yes.
Q Now what happened. Was Strasbourg on the original plan or why did you decide to stop at Strasbourg and whom were you visiting - whom was Professor Schroeder visiting?
A. The visit to Strassbourg was between the 20th and 30th of May 194* two wees before the beginning of the invasion. We left Paris in the evening for Strasbourg; because of the air situation we arrived in Strasbourg several hours late. If I remember correctly, we were to arrive at 6:00 in the morning and we arrived about 11:00. Then we visited the surgical clinic; that took about 2 hours. Then we visited an accident hospital in the city; that took about 1 hour. Then we had lunch. After that we visited Professor Nussman as the Ear Clinic. Then we visited Professor Haagen in the Hygiene Institute then we went to the physical institute or some such institute. At 7:00 o' clock we left -- 7:00 in the evening.
Q. Then you were in the Hygiene Institute of Professor Haagen. Did you meet Haagen personally?
A. Yes.
Q. And what happened? Did Haagen conduct you?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you there? Were you personally always there the whole time?
A. Yes.
Q. Now will you please describe this visit to the clinic of professor Haagen? Describe what took place -- what did you see and what did you talk about?
A. The visit to the Hygiene Institute took about one hour. Professor Haagen took us to the lecture rooms, the laboratories, the study rooms, and we were shown an animal kennel. Because of the many trips I had been in a great many institutes. I had never seen such a large animal kennel. This helps my memory. It was something I had never seen before. There were 8 ** 10 martens which were otherwise not used. There were very modern facilities for the animals.
Q. Now what was discussed?
A. The production of vaccine.
Q. And what else? Were the materials needed discussed?
A. If I remember right, we discussed the production of typhus vaccine from rabbit lungs.
Q. Did Professor Haagen say what else he was doing?
A. About the classes he held?
Q. No. Did he say anything about Natzweiler?
A. No.
Q And then you took your leave after an hour?
A. Yes.
Q Schroeder, after he had become Medical Chief, was he away from the office a great deal?
A. Not as frequently as before, when he was Fleet Physician; about 10 or 12 days a month sometimes.
Q. And for what purpose?
A. There were always difficulties to be overcome when hospitals were destroyed.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 28 February, at 0930 hours.)
Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 25 February 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHA: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 1.
Military Tribunal 1 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, will you ascertain that the defendants are all present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all the defendants are present in the court room with the exception of Defendant Oberheuser who is absent due to sickness.
THE PRESIDENT: I have the certificate from the prison physician certifying that Defendant Oberheuser is unable to appear in court today so she will be excused from appearance at the Tribunal and her absence will prejudice her case. I will file with the Secretary-General the physician certificate.
Counsel may proceed.
DR. H. AUGUSTINICK- Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is reminded he is still under oath.
BY DR. MARX:
Q. Witness, yesterday we stopped at the visit of Professor Schroeder to Strassbourg.
A. Yes.
Q. Please begin again and describe your visit to the Institute of Professor Haagen. What did you see there?
A. We were conducted by Professor Haagen, he showed us the Institute. We saw the lecture halls and the usual university arrangements of a hygiene institute. As I said yesterday, we saw the large animal stalls. The ***** visit I estimate lasted one hour.
Q. Were experiments on human beings mentioned in any connection that visit?
A. No, I would certainly remember that.
Q. What was the subject of the conversation?
A. The subject of the conversation was the production of vaccine.
Q. Was the manner of production discussed?
A. Yes, it was the production of typhus vaccine from rabbit lungs.
Q. Was anything said about what assignment this was?
A. That may be but I do not remember that in detail.
Q. An assignment for the production of vaccine should have been issue in 1941 or 1942 by the Medical Inspectorate.
A. That may be.
Q. Do you know anything about that?
A. No, I do not know anything about it.
Q. While inspecting the institute of Professor Haagen did you notice anything which might indicate experiments on human beings being conducted by Haagen?
A. No, in no way. It was a hygiene institute like any other.
Q. Then together with Professor Schroeder you left Strassbourg in the evening?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you talk to Professor Schroeder about the visit to Haagen and your impressions?
A. Oh, yes. In the train we discussed the impressions which we had gained during the day.
Q. Now what did you say?
A. The individual impressions which we had from the various institutes, for example, from the accident hospital, from the surgical *** of Professor Zuckschwerdt -- a few selected cases had been demonstrated to then the way the animals were kept in the hygiene institute which was extremely modern and the animals were very numerous.
Q. Now, if Professor Schroeder had gained the impression that Professor Haagen or his institute was doing anything objectionable don't think that he would have spoken to you about it at that time?
A. Yes, certainly. He certainly could have done that.
Q. Was it so that Professor Schroeder discussed things with you that impressed him especially?
A. Yes, especially when Professor Schroeder was Fleet Physician, later at the medical inspectorate, not so much any more, as is easy to understand, but still quite frequently.
Q. You meant to say that as his duties increased it was no longer possible to keep the relationship so close because he was too busy?
A. Yes, and I was very busy too.
Q. Will you please tell us now Professor Schroeder acted towards you in the office and what was your general opinion of his attitude?
A. I was connected with him for a considerable time. I knew him especially well but to the other associates too, as Chief of the Medical Service, -- the number increased to 25 to 30 technical experts, -- he was always, I might say, a fatherly superior. He never acted like a military commander as was sometimes the case.
Q. When Professor Schroeder became medical chief, that was the first of January 1944, what did he say about his possible attitude if he would be suspected of anything which he for his own person would repudiate?
A. He told me at the time that he personally would conduct his office in such a way as was demanded of a decent doctor, and in regard to thing for which he could not take the responsibility he would combat them with all possible means. Moreover, in a discussion about the 10th or 12th of January at which all officers, non-commissioned officers and enlisted men and the female clerks were called together, he described his working prog*** He outlined his working program and then he expressed the limitations which I have just mentioned in a form which could be readily understood.
Q. Can you remember any statement that he said he would leave his position immediately, he would give up his office, if he were suspected of anything immoral?
A. Yes, he did not say that once to me but several times.
Q. Witness, can you tell the Tribunal anything about the attitude Professor Schroeder toward wounded and sick persons?
A. Yes.
Q. Especially non-German nationals.
A. His attitude toward wounded persons was closely connected with his personal attitude toward the hospital system as such. All his efforts were devoted to the hospital system and to the wounded.
As for his attitude toward foreign wounded, I can give an example. You know that on 8 September 1943 the Italian relationship was severed. Our office was at Frascati, near Rome. The small town had about 9,000 inhabi tants at the time. Between 12:10 and 12:40, at noon, there was an air raid. There were about 7,000 dead in the city. We lost 85 soldiers. I was b***** by a close hit, and I was not able to work fully. Professor Schroeder personally took charge of the rescue work in the city. He worked day and night to re-establish public life.
In addition, about two weeks later, just below Frascati, we had to take care of a prisoner camp in which there were about 600 American enlisted ** and officers, 300 Englishmen, and 100 Italians -- altogether, about 1000 men. These prisoners were from the battle of Salerno and Nettune. There were about 100 wounded among them I was more or less the only medical officer, with the exception of Professor Schroeder, and I was put in charge of those wounded, and every afternoon I was there for several hours. There were cases which urgently needed stationary treatment. However, because of the destruction of our medical installations, there were certain difficulties in our old hospital and our dispensary. He immediately had me set up installations for the wounded soldiers. he personally supervised *** this work, as well as my care of the wounded. There were two -- I don't remember whether they were American or English-- officers at the time whom I get to know rather well. One of the officers thanked me for the care, and he wrote down my name before he left for Munich.
Q. Are you through?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that Professor Schroeder took an interest in the spiritual care of the members of the Luftwaffe and the civilians?
A. Yes, I knew that.
Q. How did he do that?
A. He had an important part in seeing to it that the Luftwaffe chaplain service was set up. There were considerable difficulties to be overcome, and he exerted his influence, and, in my opinion -- without orders, without waiting for instructions--he took the necessary steps.
Q. Do you know the name Lutze?
A. Yes. That was the medical corporal who was in our office in Frascati. He was a priest.
Q. A Jesuit?
A. I don't know which order, but I knew that he was a priest.
Q. He was a medic, and he was not permitted as a chaplain?
A. No.
Q. But Professor Schroeder, against existing regulations, made it possible for him to work as a chaplain?
A. Yes, that is true.
Q. Is it not true that he could have suffered for this action?
A. Yes, that would have been possible.
Q. I mean Professor Schroeder?
A. Yes, I understand.
Q. Can you say anything about the political attitude, the ideology, of Professor Schroeder?
A. Yes. Professor Schroeder is a non-political person. He never belonged to the Party or any organization. After 20 July 1944 the opportunity to join the Party organizations, he not only did not make any use of this opportunity, but clearly expressed his opinion that was out of the question for him and he hoped for his entourage as well.
Q. How did he fell about the events of 20 July?
A. He was so shaken and disturbed by all the excitement of this day *** he had to get a little time to think, and in the next few days he told me what he thought of the whole thing and how a palled he was at the decision of the court at the time. He did not watch his language, and he very clearly expressed his opinion of this court decision. One had to be careful; one had to restrain him.
Q. Was it not the fact that Professor Schroeder with his subordinates make very disapprovingly of the methods of the Party and the brutal execution of power?
A. Yes.
Q. And often in a way that was very dangerous for him?
A. Yes. The people to whom he made these statements were not always just our group of comrades. They were frequently guests from outside, and one never knew what such people would do with what they heard. We frequently had to ask him to be more careful in his statements, since he and the Medical Service would no doubt suffer if that went on.
Q. And how did he react?
A. He was held back with difficulty, but he broke out again repeatedly. I can give an example of his inner attitude. His last son, Hans who has meanwhile fallen, was graduating from high school, and in order to take the examination, he had to perform his service in the Hitler Youth. He did it with a lukewarm attitude and with inner reservations, so that he had difficulties in his Hitler Youth unit.
One day a 17 or 18 year old Hitler Youth leader came to see Professor Schroeder at his home and remonstrated to the father, Schroeder, and asked why he, as a father, did not see to it that his son should exercise his duty and this young man said, "Hitler Youth Service is a duty, and you, General, must know what duty means." One can understand that for an old officer that was a very clear affront from such a young man. The interview was promptly broken off.
Q. Do you remember that Professor Schroeder once took the part of J**** Witness, or people who refused to bear arms and were politically persecuted?
A. Yes, I know that.
Q. Will you please describe it?
A. One day Professor Schroeder told me to give a Pastor Jentsch an opportunity to speak to him unseen by the Medical Unit. This man was preparing some work affecting the problem of Jehova's witnesses and their relationship with the court. This work was written partly in a room of the officer's section and partly in my room.
Q Did he give Pastor Jentsch a room in his office in Saalow?
A Yes; it was my office.
Q Now, doctor, a few questions about the professional aspect. Did not Professor Schroeder take a personal interest in operation and participate as spectator, and did he not personally inquire about various individual wounded?
A Yes; when we looked at a hospital, a military hospital or a civilian hospital, it was not an inspection. We just looked at it. And his visits to the wards were medical visits, and I often had the impression that even a specialist was able to learn one thing or another from Professor Schroeder. And his visits to the hospital were extremely fruitful and enjoyable for everyone concerned. One saw all his love of the medical profession.
Q What impression did you have of Professor Schroeder's attitude toward the medical profession and toward medical ethics?
A Only the best opinion. I can only say that we always had the impression that he was an example to us in this respect, and as long as he were with the fleet we were often envied for our fleet physician.
Q How about his care for the nurses?
A That was the second thing in which he took a special interest. The nursing personnel in the Luftwaffe were really selected in time, and, in the almost five years when I worked with him, I know of only one single case in which a nurse fell out of step and had to be dismissed with a warning. He took a great interest in the nurses and I can hardly remember an inspection, a visit in hospitals, or medical installations at the front where he did not speak to the nurses alone, at least briefly, and have them tell him their troubles and enjoyments.
Q Do you remember that Professor Schroeder, Holland or in Belgium, made it possible for non-German nurses to continue nursing?
A Yes; I saw that.
Q Where was it?
A In the Hospital Fraincais -- no, in the Hospital St. Jules, in Belgium, ***in Rotterdam --- in the Luftwaffe hospital in Rotterdam. Most of the nurses were the local religious nurses, and German Red Cross nurses were also used.
Q Professor Schroeder told me that he used these Dutch nurses, and gave them the preferential positions because he was convinced of their efficiency, although German nurses were also there.
A Yes; I can confirm that. It was rather odd if a Dutch nurse was in charge of a ward, and the superior of the German Red Cross nurse.
Q But his idea was that the wounded were to be given the best possible care?
A Yes.
Q Without distinction of rationality?
A Yes.
Q Now I should like to ask you, witness, how do you think Professor Schroeder would have acted if he had heard of anything which he considered immoral or criminal? For example, experiments on human beings which he thought were not right?
A I am certain that he would have resigned, as painful as that would have been for the medical service of the Luftwaffe.
Q Don't you think that he would first have had the thing investigated?
A Yes.
Q If Professor Schroeder had resigned, how would the Luftwaffe, the medical service, have felt about that?
A That was the difficulty. There was no appropriate successor. For this reason we repeatedly had to subdue his political escapades so that nothing would happen to him; otherwise we would have had an irreplaceable loss for the medical service of the Luftwaffe. I know the rank list exactly. There was no medical officer, of those who might have succeeded him, who was of his cal**er and, in this difficult time in 1944, putting in a new man would have been a **rrible solution.
Q With the experiments for making sea water potable you had no contact yourself?
A No.