On the next morning at 7 the same procedure was followed again.
DR. MARX: May it please the Tribunal, before I continue in my examination of the witness I would like to clarify the translation of a statement of the witness. Witness, Prof. Dr. Schroeder stated that every month you received five to six thousand open incoming letters in this agency and I am told that the words "every month" were left out in the translation and since this statement can be of importance I request that this statement be corrected in the record.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would suggest you have the witness restate what he said concerning that matter for the record.
A. The incoming mail which was received in my agency consisted of from five to six thousand open letters every month and approximately one thousand secret letters. Of these one thousand secret letters approximately five to six hundred was secret and three to four hundred were top secret.
Q. Witness, the Medical Academy was subordinate to you for the training of active medical officers for the Luftwaffe?
A. Yes. Originally the candidates were also trained at the Army Academy but with the growing of the academy this was not possible anymore. At the beginning of the war we established our own Medical Academy for the Luftwaffe. It had three training groups. One was located at Berlin, the other one at Wuerzburg and the third was located at Prague. The students of the Academy were distributed to these three training centers. Scientific institutes like, for example, the Army Academy were not connected with us. As a result of the war we had not been given this opportunity. He placed emphasis on the fact to leave the students between the semesters as such time as possible. They were not limited to military duty during that period of time but as far as this was necessary the Military training was placed into the holiday season where our students were attached for medical service with troop units and hospitals.
May I point out that preliminary basic military training was a prerequisite for the study.
The zeal of the students was extraordinarily great, the urge to get to study and to work. There existed a pronounced renunciation of political lectures and political teachings. We held generally educating lectures but specialized political lectures were not given with us because we had the impression that the students did rot want to hear anything about that subject. They applied their spare time well in other ways, and they were engaged in sports to a limited extent, and above all the teaching of music had become an important point. A college of music had been established where music was practiced with special care.
In order to apply to Professor Leibbrandt's views, may I point out here that the students did not only have the urge to work and to achieve something, but that they also did not remain without success in their attempt. From my last discussions with the Commander of the Academy I can still remember the result of the last medical examination which was held in 1944, and these figures perhaps indicate better than words what the results were of this work which was achieved. There were approximately fifty students who had to subject themselves to the last examination. Of these students, about twenty passed the examination with Very Good; twenty-five passed it with Good, and only five passed the examination with Satisfactory. None of the students failed to pass, and that happened, in Berlin and at Wuerzburg where the requirements of the students on the part of the professors, were very high.
Q. Witness, before we continue, I would like to point out to you that you should make a short pause after every sentence so that the interpreter will be able to keep up with you better. I would like you to do the same thing after every question I ask you.
Professor, what official and unofficial contacts did you have with the loading personalities of the State, the Party and the Wehrmacht?
A. I did not have any with the leading Party personalities.
Q. Did you not understand my question?
A. Yes, I said I did not have any contacts with loading personalities of the Party. Hitler, Himmler and Goebbels and Bormann I had never even seen during the war. I believe that I had to report to Hitler on one occasion in 1938, but not on any other occasion, and 4th Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, Goering, I had to give Goering reports about my field of tasks, but otherwise I did not have any further contacts with him.
Q. Professor, were you also a member of medical societies and were you also active in the literary field? What can you tell the Tribunal on that subject?
A. I am a member of the German society for ear, throat and nose physicians, and that was the result of my special field. I was a member of the society of natural are nursing sciences, and then I was a member of the society of German medical officers; that is, the scientific military society. Then I was an honorary member of the German society for the dental and jaw practive. Then I was an honorary member of the University at Muenster, and I was an honorary professor of the Berlin Medical Faculty, and I was vice-president of the German society of hospitals within the framework of the international society of hospitals.
I was editor and collaborator of the journal of the German medical officers, and also of the journal about aviation medicine, on the central journal for the German hospital system, the Paradentium; that is, a journal which occupies itself with the paradentosis question, and of the journal "Deutsche Schwesternachaft" the German Nurse.
Q Did you also publish scientific articles?
A Yes. In the 20's I published several smaller works in my specialized field, and within the last ten or twelve years I published a number of works about the hospital systems and the construction of hospitals, about the nursing system. Then in the military hygienic training book I published articles about the construction of hospitals, but during the past few years all we dealt with was the problem of the hospital system.
Q Witness, did you ever belong to any party of the NSDAP, or did you belong to any of its subordinate units?
A He, neither before nor actor 1933, I never belonged to any party. This point was one of the reasons which caused me to remain in the Wehrmacht because in the 100,000 men army we were prohibited from taking any active part in politics. I have always had an objection to occupying myself with questions of politics and I was glad that we had to keep out of these questions in the 100,000 men army.
For myself and my subordinates I have always taken care to see that this instruction was complied with. A soldier can only serve his father-land, and not a party. Whenever he leaves this ground, then he gets on a very skimpy surface. During my later activity I have always repeatedly told my subordinates that they should strictly fulfill their duties and to strictly adhere to that line, and to thus become an example to their subordinates. After, in 1944 I was permitted as a member of the Wechrmacht to join the Party I still did not make use of this offer, and I did not belong to any of the subordinate units either, although I could have joined them previously.
Q After this general introduction I am now coming to the individual points of the indictment. Witness, the prosecution charges you primarily with having participated in a criminal conspiracy to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity, together with the remaining defendants. In what connection do you stand with the other men who are also accused here and how many of them are known to you at all, and with how many of them did you have any closer relations of any kind?
A The co-defendant Handloser is known more closely to me. Like myself he was in the 100,000 men army and at the time I became his successor as specialist in the Ministry. I further know my collaborators from the Luftwaffe, the defendants Rose, Becker-Freyseng, Weltz, Ruff, who have been known to me for a longer period of time, or I knew then already before the war. Romberg, Schaefer, Beiglboeck I met in 1944 during my time of activity as Medical Chief. I knew Brandt and Rostock slightly iron previous times, and of course, I had occasional contact with them in my capacity as Radical Chief which was, of course, caused by the position of those two men.
I saw Genzken on one or two occasions, also as Medical Chief, I believe that was when Professor Handloser called us to attend some discussion or conference, and of course I may have seen Blome or Gebhardt at Hohenlychen but the remainder are unknown to me, and I have only heard of their names here in Nurnberg.
Q. On what occasions did you have contact with Professor Brandt?
A. It was in my time when I was medical chief, when he was Reich Commissioner, and occasionally questions arose. Above all we were dealing with questions of the Airraid Precaution Medical Service, and he occasionally required the assistance of my section head for these matters.
Q. Did it become known to you on some occasions that in the medical sector atrocities or extermination measures were to be carried out?
A. No never. In the time when I was fleet physician I frequently discussed with Professor Handloser the establishment for the care of the wounded of all countries. And as medical physician I was, of course, interested, but I believe that just the apposite was my task -- to help all those who needed aid.
Q. I just wanted to ask you a question to this effect, and this question reads: During the war did you also take care of and did you negotiate about the physicians which were to the place in the occupied territories to take care of the civilian population?
A. Yes.
Q. And of what did this care consist for the population of the occupied territories?
A. Well, it was only natural that we dealt with this question and especially during the period of time when I fleet physician and we came into newly occupied territories where, through the evacuation of the popuation and through war operations the Medical care of the civilian population had come into disorder, we assisted with physicians, material, and personnel whatever we could, and I gave the order that civilians of any age or sex were to be admitted in our hospitals and that they were to be treated there as far as the situation enabled us to do this. However, it was superfluous to give this order, because every hospital had already been this on its own initiative. Also, on various inspections which I male in the hospitals I was able to convince myself that this order was being complied with to the utmost extent, and wherever we wanted to use hospitals or wherever we had to use them, this was always done under consultation of the local civilian authorities so that the civilian authorities of the occupied territories also were able to keep sufficient space for their own people.
We did this in the west, in the east, and in Italy to the fullest extent. On one occasion I built an operation room for the civilian authorities, but that was, of course, only natural for us to do that.
Q. Witness, the Prosecution charges you personally from the time of 1941 to 1943 with the fact that you, as the second highest medical officer of the Luftwaffe, are alleged to have knowledge of certain criminal occurrences during that period of time. Will you please describe in detail to the Tribunal your official position during that period of time?
A. Yes. I have found this statement frequently in the documents. I can only explain it to be a mistake in the translation or a mistake in hearing. When Hippke was inspector he had the rank of Generalaborstabsarzt. That would correspond to the Lt. General in the American Army. For the same period of time I had the rank of Generalstansarzt. That, in the American Army, corresponds to the Major General of the American Army. That is to say, during that period of time I had the second highest army rank. We call the individual ranks official grades. The highest was Generaleberstabsarzt, and the second highest was Generalstabsarzt. Within this group of Generalstabsarzt we in the Luftwaffe had six offices, and of these offices I had the third. There were senior Generalstabsarte above me. That was Generalstabsarzt Neumueller and Generalstabsarzt Piauer. Neumueller was the second highest medical officer at the time of Hippke, in order to use the statement which has been used by the Prosecution. During that period of time,from 1941 to 1943, Neumueller was also at Berlin -- or from '40. He first was commander of the Military Medical Academy and afterwards he was airfleet physician "Reich". That is to say, both agencies were located in Berlin and his resistance was also located in Berlin. As was required by his position, on various occasions he was the deputy of Hippke when the latter became sick.
I already said with regard to the organization of my agency that in current affairs the chief of staff was a deputy, that in case of a normal absence, as for example when I was away for eight or ten days, no deputy was appointed. Then the work was handled by the chief of staff. For the most part I tried every night or second night to call my agency by telephone, and then I was able to clarity questions which had accumulated. That is the reason why no special deputy had to be appointed for me, only when through an extended illness or through an absence which could not be replaced, when the chief of the agency was absent for a longer period of time, then a deputy was appointed. From time to time as far as I can remember this was the case on one occasion in 1942 that Neumueller was the deputy of Hippke for a period of several weeks and that perhaps on some occasion he was consulted in his capacity as deputy of Hippke. During this period of time, around 1943, I was in Italy, Sicily, and Africa, and I was so far from Berlin that any consultation for work -- or that I was unable to receive any orders for special assignments. After all, it was difficult to reach me during the period which I have just mentioned. I was hardly ever located in Berlin.
Q. In accordance with this, your contacts with the medical chief at that time were very small?
A. I believe that in the time between 1941 and 1943 I have seen him on two occasions, for a few hours. I believe that this was when I was at Berlin. I believe that it was not more than two times.
Q. The Prosecution has accused you, supported by the fact that you were alleged to have been the second highest medical officer, it now charges you with the responsibility for the high altitude and freezing experiments in the concentration camp Dachau which were carried out in the year 1942, What do you have to say in that connection?
THE PRESIDENT: Before taking this matter up the Tribunal will take its noon recess until 1:30.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
CORRECTION SHEET for COURT TRANSCRIPT 25 FEBRUARY 1947.
PAGE No. 3492 is non-existent.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
Q. Witness, before the noon recess we were at this question. The Prosecution, judging from the fact you were second highest officer of the Luftwaffe, charges you with special responsibility for high-altitude and cold experiments in the **a.r 1942 at the Concentration Camp at Dachau. Will you please comment on this?
A. I learned of the high-altitude experiments only here in Nuernberg from the preparations for this trial. I learned of the cold experiments from the reports of the meeting on distress at sea and winter distress which I received at the time when I was still fleet physician of Airfleet 11. I assume that it was in the spring of 1943, for the meeting was in October and by the the time such a report is compiled and printed, a few months pass. I cannot remember exactly, but it probably appeared in the first months of 1943 in my office in Italy. I , myself, did not participate in tho meeting at Nuernberg.
At that time, I was in Sicily or in Africa. I received the report. I received several copies of the report which was distributed to the subordinate agencies by my office. I, myself, read it. I noted the work of Holzlechner with great interest for the following reason: The report says, as I was able to see again now, that the experiences were gathered from persons who had been rescued. This reminded me of the time in 1940 when I was in the west with Airfleet 11 and Holzlechner was Chief Physician of a hospital. He was under my command. He had a hospital near the coast. On the road from Calais to Bologna, in a small bathing resort village of Visson, we had established a rescue station for sea rescue. This station had a doctor and several non-commissioned officers from Holzlechner's hospital. This town of Visson is south * Capoe Grisnez.
It has a bathing beach and some dunes from which one can get a very good view of the channel. In clear *** *er, one can see the English coast and the harbor of **v*r. One has a good view over the channel. That was the reason we set up a rescue station there.
A second reason was that this district south of Cape Grisnez was the point where our planes flew over the England. Accidents at sea of planes which had been hit usually took place in this area. There could be seen from this point. This rescue station was in a small house. There were a few beds and blankets and drugs and some dressings. And I remember as long as this station was under my command, that was probably a good six months, that there were 10 or 12 cases of persons who had been rescued from sea and brought there.
I must add the rescue station also had a small motor boat **** which they could go out to pick up the shipwrecked persons whom they had seen from posts in the dunes. It was frequently possible to observe the crash from the plane into the channel, and then quickly go out there and rescue the pilot. I wont past there frequently because the Bologne-Calais read was one of the main roads in that district. Other people had been at sea for sometime were also rescued there and treated at this rescue station. As soon as their condition permitted, they were transferred to the hospital and treated there. This work of Holzlechner's hospital was known to me. So I assumed that this report essentially was based on experience from this station, perhaps supplemented by experiences of other similar stations. We had such opportunities in Norway, too. No one from my office participated in this meeting. So I did not get any personal report about the Nuernberg meeting.
Q. When did you hear for the first time that experiments were conducted in Dachau?
A. I heard that for the first time when the question of sea-water experiments was discussed. And after the various failures, I was looking for a solution. I was told that experiments had already been conducted Dachau and later Holzlechner confirmed this once in a brief consultation. But he did nothing about deaths. I learned things through radio reports in the fall of 1945 when I was a prisoner.
Q. The Prosecution, in the list of participants of the meeting in Nuernberg list Heubner and say he was your expert advisor on sea water experiments. Will you please comment on that?
That is a misunderstanding. That is Huebener with "ue"; the advisor of sea water experiments was Professor Heubener, written "eu", the profess or criminology at Berlin. They had nothing to do with each other. Heubener was a young fellow, and Heubener was a gentlemen of about 17 years experience and a ciminologist.
Q Professor, you were also brought in connection with the sulfanilaide experiments, what have you to say about that?
A I learned of that for the first time when I was given the indictment. I knew nothing about the experiments, and I did not know I was supposed to have participated in it. I learned that only from the indictment.
Q These experiments are supposed to have taken place in 1942 and 1943, where were you?
A I have already said that here at that time I was in Sicily and in Africa, and the meeting which is referred to was in May 1943. We lost the African Theatre of war in May 1943, and at that time my everything was not concerning these different meetings, but there were several thousand wounded at the time which had been brought back from Africa, and we had no negotiated with the enemy about letting the hospital ships through. I believe I did not know that meeting was taking place at the time. I was busy with other things.
Q Did you participate in the consulting meeting in Berlin in May, 1943?
A No, for the same reasons I said before.
Q Witness, what can you say about the hepatitis experiments which are also mentioned in the indictment. You are also to have known of these experiments?
A Hepatitis serum for injection which is probably the matter at issue were not given by the medical chiefs.
Q Now, will you please look at the German document Dock No. 8 about hepatitis. I show you document No. 137 of the Prosecution, page 6 of the German document Book, Prosecution Exhibit No. 189. What conclusion can be drawn from this document?
A That is a report of the Research assignment being conducted by Haagen. He has put down the assignment which he get from the Luftwaffe, and those which he get from the Reich Research Council. The assignment from the Luftwaffe on yellow fever vaccines, typhus vaccines, and the influenza are open assignments from the Research --Reich Research Council; typhus and hepatitis are top secrets. There is a difference in that alone. The assignments on yellow fever vaccines and typhus vaccine were given in the years of 1941, 1942, 1943, and extended, and they were production assistants. It was not Haagen's assignment to report to us about the Reich Research Council, which were top secret matters. On the contrary, the high degree of secrecy of these assignments obliged him to silence towards the other agencies.
Q Are you through with this point?
A Yes.
Q Witness, now, I shall show you the correspondence between Professor Haagen, Professor Gutzeit and Professor Kalk. That is Prosecutions' documents Nos. 124, 125 and 126 in the German Document Book, pages 11, 14 and 15; Nos. 193, 194 and 195, Prosecution exhibits pages 11, 13 and 14 of the English book. Do you have that?
A Yes, I have it.
Q In these documents the names of Dr. Dohmen and Professor Buechner are mentioned. Will you comment on this correspondence as the Prosecution from this report concludes the participation of the Luftwaffe in hepatitis research?
A No, that is not so, but Haagen had a hepatitis research assignment, as we have seen. Haagen was a hygienist, and primarily he worked on virus research.
It does not need to have this assignment unless he can use those doctors who have something to do with this field, and so he turned to Dueckner, who was the pathological anatomist, who had great experience in pathological anatomy and with hepatitis. Then he turned to technicians like -- known technicians like Gutzeit, Dohmen and von Kalk; these were people who in the clinical field were known. Gutzeit was a witness here, and he was able to explain that so far as he was concerned. Kalk is not as yet been board here, but Kalk was also one of the technicians who had conducted extensive clinical research in Hospitals in the field of hepatitis. He had hepatitis work in the various hospitals where he had his associates working as section physicians, which he controlled, or he c*ocked. This explains why Haagen contacted those well known gentlemen in order to get a group of r***ly experienced specialists from all the fields concerned; that is, first, the clinic, second, pathology, that was Buechner, and third, virus research, that was Haagen. Gutzeit spoke of the work in the ?rou?s which were formed --- were to be formed, or were formed for hepatitis research. That is shown from the correspondence here.
Q Witness, on this point I offer an affidavit from Professor Dr. Kalk, of 17 January 1947. It is in my document book on page 53, and is to be exhibit No. 1, in my document book, but I believe the Tribunal does not yet have the document book.
THE PRESIDENT: We have not *** yet received the English Document Book.
DR. MARX: Mr. President, then I ask to reserve the right to read important parts from this affidavit of Professer Kalk later.
Or I ask it be admitted provisionally and I will read those parts. I ask it can be translated.
MR. HARDY: The Tribunal please, I request that the offer of document at this time be forestalled until such time we have the document book in our possession so we may object if necessary.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you seen the English Document Book?
MR. HARDY: We have not seen it at all.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, you have reserved the right to offer this document at an appropriate later time, but as long as the Prosecution and the Tribunal have not the English Document Book, it would not be appropriate to proceed to read it at this time.
DR. MARX: Very well. In the same connection I also offer a report from Professor Halk, which I shall offer and submit to the Tribunal in connection with my other document.
BY DR. MARX: Q. Witness, do you have connection with the general yellow fever vaccine production?
A. No. Yellow fever vaccine production assignments were given by my predecessor in 1942. In 1943 it was repealed when the African field of war had been lost, and the necessity for having yellow fever vaccine no longer existed. It was purely a matter of production, which was cancelled.
Q. Then, if I understand you correctly, this production assignment went only with the African theatre of war?
A. Yes, only in that connection.
Q. Witness, in connection with the name of Professor Haagen, the term "consulting physician" was mentioned several times. What does this mean to you? that was the position of consulting physician?
A. I believe I can be brief on that point. Handloser has already commented on the position of the consulting physician here. In the Luftwaffe there were consulting physicians. The Fleet Physician had a consulting surgeon, an internal physician, a hygienist, and in the office of the Medical Chief there were also consulting physicians -- from six to, later, about twenty.
The activity of the consulting physician with the Medical Chief varied. It depended on the extent to which the consulting physician could coordinate his military and civilian activity. It was in the nature of the position that these consulting physicians often held a high position in civilian life. They were university teachers or heads of large hospitals or heads of institutions, and their civilian professions did not permit that they stop this activity completely. They had to attempt to unite these two tasks. One man had a great deal to do with his civilian work, may have been in charge of a clinic and teaching in a university. He was only available a very little. Others were far removed, and this hampered their activities. Others could get a good deputy in their peacetime work and, in this way, were able to devote wore tine to the office of the Medical Chief. That varied This explains why I in my office had a rather large number of consulting physicians.
I could give only very little work to many of them, with consideration of their civilian activity. I could assign only limited duties to them, so that I could keep them as associates. If I had put too high claims on such a consulting physician, demands might have come from the civilian side, and I might have had to give him up completely. Therefore, I always tried to adjust these things so that I would not have to give up the advice and experience of these gentlemen.
Q Now, what was the relationship or subordination of the consulting physician to the Medical Chief, if, in addition to his activity, he continued his civilian profession?
A He was under me only in questions affecting his own activity as a consulting physician. All research work, all affairs of his clinic or his university teaching, or whatever else was his principal position, remained unchanged. They remained under the agency where they had been in peacetime; that is, in most cases, under the Reich Education ministry or the Ministry of the Interior, depending on where his peacetime position was--the Provincial Administration, or something else. I did not have any right to interfere with this activity either.
Q Professor, will you tell me something about the responsibility of the medical officer in executing his medical service? Now is the responsibility distributed to the loading medical offices for measures which he ordered, and to the subordinate medical officer for measures which he executes? Did you understand the question?
A Yes. I shall be very glad to discuss this question.
General Hartleben told the Tribunal about this matter a few days ago. He spoke very clearly and, no doubt, convincingly, but in my opinion he was not quite complete, so that one last point remains open so far as the judges are concerned.
The medical officer, like other specialized officers, has a double subordination, as Hardleben said the other day. In the first place, the troop subordination, and a specialized subordination. The superior of the medical officer can be both. He can be a medical and a military superior or only a medical superior. I shall explain this by an example which shows it more clearly.
The battalion physician has his battalion commander as his military superior, and he has his division or corps physician as his medical superior. For this battalion position there is the relationship of subordination in two lines and to two persons--the commanding officer on the one hand and the divisional physician on the other hand, but it can be different.
Let us take as an example a hospital. The chief physician of the hospital is the commanding officer on the one hand, the military superior of all the officers, non-commissioned officers, men and patients at the hospital. On the other hand, however, he is at the same time the medical superior of all the medical officers and so forth in the hospital. He can, for example, give an order: Service in the hospital begins at eight in the morning.