Q. Were you personally present during that event?
A. No.
Q. From whom did you learn what the camp physician of Natzweiler told them?
A. The persons told me that themselves.
Q. A witness has already testified here, a witness who also came from Natzweiler, that Professor Hirt had held a lecture to these experimental subjects about the purpose of the experiments which he intended.
A. That was only later. That only happened after they had already been selected.
Q. But then Professor Hirt held a lecture?
A. Yes, but then they were already located at that department, that block.
Q. Well, these people had been requested to volunteer for special experiments in the camp at Natzweiler, the camp physician told then that this waste be an experiment, then the people were sent to the station, and here Dr. Hirt once more addressed them?
A. Yes, that is how it was--yes.
Q. You were speaking about the station Ahnenerbe. How did this station get this name "Ahenerbe."
A. Well, I cannot tell you that. I only know that that was the name. It was no secret.
Q. Well, it needn't be a secret. At any rate, we have established that at the time you went to that station the name "Station Ahnenerbe" already existed?
A. Yes, we had received this information in order to see that the drugs which we received would not be confused with the drugs that the other inmates in the camp had to receive. These drugs, these solutions or ointments were not to be used for the other inmates.
Q. Well, you yourself nursed these experimental subjects?
A. Yes.
Q. You were saying that three of these experimental subjects died?
A. Yes.
Q. When did they die? Can you ascertain that from your notes?
A. Yes. You will find that in my book.
Q. The date can be ascertained?
A. The month can be ascertained.
Q. Very well.
A. I did not have sufficient time to make an entry every day.
Q. Have you already returned the book?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. I shall once more have the book handed to you in order to enable you to ascertain the month or the months during which these three people had died in connection with the burning experiments. Would you please select these three months?
A. December 1942.
Q. That refers to the three cases of the first experiment?
A. Yes, December 1942.
Q. In what manner was the cause of death ascertained?
A. That happened in the dressing room. Once they were dead we immediately reported that fact. Either the professor or the assistant came along and examined these people. That was not our matter and once these corpses were released we transferred them to the crematory.
Q. In that way you cannot say what exactly the cause of death was in connection with these three people.
A. They had high fever and then a severe relapse. They had horrible wounds full of puss. They suffered terribly before they died.
Q. But, witness, I was asking you whether you know exactly what the cause of death was in these cases.
A. That I could not ascertain. I can only tell you what I saw.
Q. Now, Now big was this so-called department Ahnenerbe?
A. How do you mean--how many people?
Q. Well, I am asking you was it one barrack or was it only part of a barrack? How many rooms were in there?
A. We had a room No. 1 and a room No. 2. We had a pathological department and a room for treatments.
Q. Was this a barracks or a stone building?
A. No, it was part of a barracks, when you entered you found it on your left side, the left wing.
Q. Was it a normal wooden barracks?
A. Yes, a normal wooden barracks. That was repaired in the department Ahnenerbe.
Q. Can you give us approximately the size of that barracks, how long it was, how wide it was?
A. I think it was 96 meters.
Q. 96 meters long?
A. Yes, 96 meters long. I believe so. I cannot tell you that with certainty--about 7 meters wide.
Q. You think that this barracks was 96 meters long?
A. Yes, it was just an ordinary concentration camp barracks.
Q. Were there many such barracks in Natzweiler?
A. Certainly, at that time.
Q. I believe that you are in a position to estimate approximately what 96 meters means.
A. Yes.
Q. But you still remain at your opinion that it was 96 meters?
A. Yes, approximately 96 meters, 90 meters, something like that. I really didn't take too much interest in that.
Q. You were in Natzweiler in the years of 1943 and 1944?
A. Yes.
Q. Was this barrack at that tine still designated Ahnenerbe?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any notice attached to this barrack?
A. No.
Q. Well, if I understand you correctly the barrack was designated as the Ahnenerbe barrack among the inmates?
A. That did not apply to all of the inmates, only those who knew.
Q. And how did these few inmates have that knowledge?
A. In every camp there are rumors and rumors pass from one to another.
Q. At any rate you have no exact material which culd tell us in what connection this barrack was with the Institute of Ahnenerbe?
A. I didn't quite understand you, counsel.
Q. In Berlin there was an institute called Ahnenerbe; do you know that?
A. That nay be. I don't know. I only know that they received their assignments from Berlin. I heard that once.
Q. And who received these assignments you are talking about?
A. Well, Strassbourg, Strassbourg perhaps, the professors of Strassbourg.
Q. But you know nothing authentic about it personally?
A. No.
Q. Witness, this morning you were telling us that the inmates who volunteered for these experiments were promised that they would be pardoned after the experiment. Furthermore, you stated that was never carried out?
A. No.
Q. These inmates who were used for these burning experiments, did they remain in that barracks during the subsequent period?
A. No.
Q. Well, where were they sent?
A. None of them got away. They all were transferred, they all became invalids and as invalid they were sent back to the camp. For some time they were employed in the weaving industry. However, they couldn't work there. They were just sitting around, and so one after the other was sent away on invalid transports and this is how they left.
Q. Did you have an opportunity to observe these inmates during the subsequent period?
A. Yes.
Q. How many inmates were there in Natzweiler?
A. In Natzweiler I think there were twelve hundred inmates, twelve hundred inmates. That is in the mother camp of Natzweiler. The Natzweiler camp had some outside branches. I think in the whole camp there were abut seven thousand inmates, during the last period.
Q. And do you mean to say that you always had an opportunity to observe these twelve inmates who were used for the burning experiments and ascertain how long they remained in the camp?
A. That is not at all difficult. It wasn't at all difficult to observe the people.
Q. Now, one more question. In the case of the experimental subjects used for the experiments of Dr. Haagen, were they also in the department of Ahnenerbe?
A. Yes, we had to vacate this department for that particular purpose because it was filled with other patients.
Q. And for whom was this department to be vacated?
A. For the research of Ahnenerbe.
Q. How do you know this latter fact, that this vacating was to be carried out for tho institute of Ahnenerbe?
A. We had received the order that this place was to be vacated because people would come from Auschwitz. That is the official in formation we received.
Q. But that this evacuation was to be carried out on behalf of the institute of Ahnenerbe, how did you know that?
A. I already told you that we received an order that this place was to be vacated since it was to be used for the Ahnenerbe.
Q. Did you ever see a written ordinance to that effect?
A. No.
Q. Who told you that? Who told you that these barracks were needed by the Ahnenerbe?
A. The camp physician of Natzweiler, the SS camp physician.
Q. Did he tell you that personally?
A. No, not me personally, but I was present. I received the order personally.
Q. To whom was the camp physician speaking?
A. He was speaking to the kapo of the hospital.
Q. Now, one more question in connection with the burning experiments. You were saying that Dr. Hirt on frequent occasions went to Natzweiler to this station. Were you present on all these occasions?
A. Whenever the professor came to visit us we were mostly engaged in the changing of dressings. We had to bathe these two people once every two hours and on this occasion he sometimes came in to examine the people. He was accompanied by a man from the Luftwaffe who photographed these people every day. He sometimes photographed them twice a day.
Q. Since you are saying that you were at this station regularly, you probably also have had an opportunity to observe whether visitors from outside came to that station?
A. Certainly.
Q. Did you receive frequent visits?
A. Sometimes, not exactly frequent.
Q. During the time when the typhus experiments were carried on, did you hear the name Sievers--Sievers?
A. I can't remember.
Q. Did you hear this name Sievers mentioned in connection with the burning experiments?
A. No, I cannot remember.
DR. WEISGERBER: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other cross examination of this witness by defense counsel?
MR HARDY: Before further cross examination continues, your Honor, if the cross examination and redirect examination, if any of this witness, are completed and there is still time left this afternoon, Dr. Tipp will be prepared to present his supplemental documents for the case of Becker-Freysing, so I am telling that to the Tribunal so they may have their supplemental copies available.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITZ (Counsel for defendant Rose):
Q. Witness, did you know the nurse, male nurse, Holl?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know your countryman, Broers?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you also know a certain Grandjean?
A. Grandjean, yes.
Q. Were they also at this typhus experimental station?
A. Yes, he worked there but not at the Ahnenerbe department.
Q. Did these three people also know something about the execution of the experiments as you described them today?.
A. Certainly, they must have known about that but not in such detail, certainly not about typhus because at that time he was already in Baden-Baden. I mean Holl. But he know about the burning experiments.
Q. And how about the other two, Grandjean and your countryman?
A Yes, they certainly knew about these things but not to the same degree as I. They were not as often present as I was.
DR. FRITZ: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY DR. TIPP (Counsel for defendants Becker-Freyseng and Schroeder)
Q. Witness, if I understood you correctly, Professor Haagen, as you said, for the first time entered Natzweiler in October 1943; is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. You were furthermor saying that at first a transport of about a hundred gypsies arrived. You further said that Professor Haagen examined this transport and then sent these people away because they were not physically strong enough; is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, witness, would you please tell us when Professor Haagen started with his vaccinations in Natzweiler?
A. That was approximately in November 1943.
Q. Is it possible, witness, that this was only in December of 1943?
A. One moment, please. It must have been at the end of November.
Q. Very well. On how many persons were these vaccinations performed, witness? I am talking about the vaccinations by Mr. Haagen.
A. Do you mean the beginning or the end or what?
Q. I want to put this question to you quite generally. When did Mr. Haagen start to work with these inmates?
A. I think that was in November, during the course of November 1943.
Q. And when were these experiments concluded?
A. A bout April, 1944, the typhus experiments?
Q. Yes, In other words from November 1943 until April of 1944. How many inmates did Mr. Haagen use as experimental subjects?
A. Approximately ninety.
Q. You were saying this morning, if I understood you correctly, witness, that these subjects were divided into two groups?
A. Yes.
Q. How many persons did one such group comprise?
A. Half. They were divided in exactly two groups.
Q. Could you please tell the Tribunal, witness, what exactly Mr. Haagen did with these groups? Tell us what he did with the first group and then what he did with the second.
A. The first group received a protective vaccination.
Q. Let me ask you, witness, if I understood you correctly, you are not a physician?
A. No, I am not.
Q. How then can you tell us exactly that Mr. Haagen vaccinated these people?
A. Well, I am a trained nurse. I have learned the nursing profession in Natzweiler.
Q. And within the framework of this education you gained enough knowledge in order to tell us what Mr. Haagen did with this first group was actually a protective vaccination?
A. Well, we had our physicians there too among the inmates, and they knew it just as well as I did.
Q. Well, who were these innate physicians, witness?
A. For instance, there was a Dutch Physician, Dr. Kredit, who unfortunately died of typhus.
Q. Was there another physician there?
A. No, there wasn't another physician in the typhus station perhaps Dr. Paulsson from Norway.
Q Very well. Well, you were saying that Mr. Haagen was vaccinating the first group against typhus. Can you tell us exactly what vaccine he used?
A No.
Q How about the second group?
A The second group was merely strengthened with food and then worked upon anew.
Q The first group was vaccinated, and the second group was not. These were the stronger people.
A The stronger people were used for the second group.
Q And now you are saying that after some time everybody started to work again. Well, what was the length of time between these two experiments?
A Only a few days.
Q Now, witness, it is important to know what the second work of Haagen constituted. The prosecution asked you this morning if Haagen injected into these inmates artificial infectious typhus vaccine, and you said yes. Witness, what do you understand by artificial infectious typhus vaccine?
MR. HARDY: The prosecution did not say vaccine.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q Pardon me, what I just mentioned was typhus medium, artificial infectious typhus medium, what do you understand that to mean?
A I can't judge that.
Q How do you know that it was artificial infectious typhus?
A Well, we heard that -
Q One minute, witness. I don't want to hear any conclusions from you. The Tribunal wants to knew what you really know from your knowledge, and now you say that you cannot really judge whether it was really artificial infectious typhus, that is, from what you just -
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, the defense put a question to the witness and the witness proceeded to answer it, and he interrupted him. I request that the witness be permitted to answer that question.
THE TRIBUNAL: The witness may answer the question. The interpreter will read the question.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q I am asking, since you cannot judge it, how do you know that Hr. Haagen was using Artificial infectious typhus?
A The Professor spoke to the inmate physician in this department and made no secret of it. He told us about his work, and that was when we were all present.
Q Well, what did he tell you about his work?
A Well, I can't repeat that to you exactly.
Q Well, in that case how can you maintain that he used artificial infectious typhus if you cannot judge that from your own knowledge and if you can no longer tell us what Mr. Haagen has told the inmate physician?
A Well, as far as I can judge it, if one receives typhus normally, one gets it through lice or unclean conditions, but these people were entirely clean. Therefore, they must have bean infected with an artificial medium. Even if you are not a physician you can judge that.
Q Well, witness, I am repeating that you are merely giving us a conclusion. But that that does not constitute a knowledge. Finally, let me establish that you really do not know whether Haagen actually worked with infectious typhus -
MR. HARDY: May I suggest that defense counsel interrogate the witness, not argue with him?
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel is proceeding in order. You may proceed, excepting a little more slowly.
BY DR. TIPP:
Q Very well, witness. Now, another question. What was the success of the introduction of the vaccine, or this artificial infectious typhus; will you please talk a little slower?
A It occurred just as in the case of normal typhus. There was high fever, collapse, it is ordinary in the case of typhus, one saw all the normal symptoms of a typhus patient. The one group which received vaccinations did not show as severe symptoms as the other group, which did not receive these vaccinations. In other words, they did not experience such high fevers except in the case of a few individuals. I know that from my own knowledge because I measured the fever myself.
Q In that case you are saying, witness, the patient had high fever?
A Yes.
Q I did not quite understand your further statement. What do you mean by "collapse", or "kollapieren"?
A Collapse, I think, means if the curve goes way up and then suddenly drops down, as far as I can judge that as a nurse.
Q In other words, you are saying that the inmates had high fever, and that fever dropped abruptly. What other symptoms did you notice in the case of these inmates, witness?
A I can't tell you any other symptoms.
Q In other words, the inmates had high fever. Is high fever necessarily a sign of typhus, witness?
A No, certainly not. But Professor Haagen said publicly that these were typhus experiments.
Q Unfortunately, I must once more establish, witness, that Mr. Haagen told you that these were typhus experiments. May I perhaps put to you that he may have spoken of typhus vaccine experiments?
A That I cannot say, I really don't know.
Q In any case, witness, you can't tell us with certainty from your own knowledge that these inmates contacted typhus?
A No.
Q I think that this answers my questions.
A But I must tell you one thing, the blood tests taken from these inmates were sent to Strassbourg together with tests of all the normal typhus cases.
Q I beg your pardon, witness, what do you mean by normal typhus cases?
A I mean those cases which were already in the camp, that is, those who were sent to the camp suffering with typhus; but the typhus cases came from Auschwitz.
Q You were saying that the blood tests were sent to Strassbourg. Now, witness, you are not a physician. At any rate, you were working long enough at a so-called experimental station, may I perhaps ask you did you at any time hear of the so-called Weil-Felix reaction?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what is meant by that?
A Yes, in my opinion this is the blood test according to WeilFelix. This is a blood examination which was invented by Weil-Felix.
Q. I think we understand each other, witness. You are saying that the Weil-Felix reaction is called after the two men who used this test for the first time by the name of Weil and Felix. What does one establish by this Weil-Felix reaction, do you know that?
A The state of the blood. I cannot really judge that.
Q Now, witness, if I were to tell you know that one establishes, by using the Weil-Felix reactions what resistance there is to be found in the blood, would that be something new to you?
A Yes, I think so, but I forgot it again.
Q At any rate, you do know that these people who were treated by Dr. Haagen received high fever, blood tests were taken from their bodies, and you also know that these blood tests were sent to Strassbourg for examination together with blood tests of the normal typhus cases?
A Yes. But they may have also been sent to other places.
Q Very well. I don't want to argue with you about that subject.
Witness, you were a nurse at this station, and you asserted you nursed these inmates yourself, is that true?
A Yes.
Q When did these feverish symptoms occur?
A Well, I really can't tell you that exactly. I do not know the exact course of the illness.
Q Now, witness, if you are so well informed about these matters, you must be in a position to tell the Tribunal approximately when these symptoms occurred after two days, three days, fourteen days?
A Well, I think they occurred after 10 or 12 days.
Q And when, witness, did the individual people die? I mean, the persons of whom you were speaking this morning and this afternoon.
A You mean as cf what date they died? I think that it started approximately at the end of December 1943.
Q Let me clarify my question. I am now speaking of the death cases as they arose from this experimental group?
A Yes, I understand you.
Q As you were saying this experimental group was started at the end of November or the beginning of December, and when did the first death cases occur?
A I think that these occurred towards the middle of December.
Q Now, witness, can you tell us with certainty what the cause of the death was?
A No, I cannot tell you.
Q When did the other death cases occur?
A During the subsequent periods. Two days later there was a one, a few days later there was another one, and so on.
Q We have the death book before us, witness, and I shall come back to that later; but couldn't you ascertain by using the death book exactly when these death cases occurred? May I perhaps help you? You were speaking about the 12th line of page 38.
A I beg your pardon, I make a mistake. I think I got my dates mixed up. I think I made a mistake in giving you some of the dates. If I correct myself, the experiments started approximately at the middle of November. Many years have passed since, and this is my only help. The group of these 18 people was already entered in November.
Q Now, witness, I must put something to you. At first, you said that the experiments started at the end of November. Now, you say, looking at the book, that there were already death cases in November, and in order to connect these death cases with the experiments you are now saying they actually started in the beginning of November. Isn't this error due to the fact that you want to connect those death cases with what you were telling us before?
A No.
Q Now, witness, how do you know that this group of 18 gypsies which is entered here are actually persons who belonged to Haagen's group?
A These people were not entered with their names and their numbers. I mean, the camp administration book, the camp registry book, whore every inmate was entered with name and number.
Q How do you know that?
A Well, I do know it. Every inmate who comes to the Natzweiler concentration camp had to pass through the hospital.
Q How do you know that just this gypsy group was not entered there?
A because I was present when they arrived. They arrived on a Sunday.
Q When this experimental group came to the hospital you, yourself, were present, witness?
A Yes.
Q And on this occasion you found out that these person were not entered?
A Certainly, I am quite sure of that.
Q Why was that, witness?
A I can't tell you.
Q Was that ordered specifically -- was it forbidden specifically that these people be entered?
A I really can't tell you.
Q Weren't these names ascertained at the experiment station?
A Oh yes, I knew that one was called Joseph and one had another name, but of course I can't tell you that with certainty now.
Q Witness, form the fact that these inmates were not registered in the camp at their arrival, and from the fact that here in the book we find a group of 18 gypsies, without names, you conclude that we are here concerned with the people coming from that group -- but that is merely a conclusion on your part?
A No, that is a fact. These people were not entered.
Q Now witness, you are saying that is a fact but in that connection I must ask you the following: Who exactly made the entries into the death book?
A The clerks -- the inmate clerks.
Q Not yourself?
A No.
Q Well, in the case you really cannot tell us why this clerk left the names out?
A Well, the clerk did not know their names.
Q Witness, when this group arrived in the camp you were accidentally present?
A That was not an accident. That was quite normal.
Q Were you always there?
A Yes, I was always there when they arrived.
Q In that case, do you mean to say that in the case of every new influx of people into the group, you were present?
A Of course there were transports when I was not present but every transport had to go through the hospital.
Q Now let me establish the following thing, witness. Can you state that this group of 90 gypsies was the only group whose names were not entered?
A There were other gypsies.
Q You mean other groups whose names were not entered?
A Yes.
Q Well, then, how can you tell us that those gypsies who have no names are identical with the experimental subjects?
A I can tell you that because the other persons in the preceding transport arrived and left again and were not accepted into the camp proper.
Q But witness, you cannot exclude, if I understand you correctly, that other groups arrived at the camp whose names were not registered?
A Yes, but that was at an earlier date.
Q Well, how do you know that?
AA number of Jews, for instance, arrived at the camp, who left a day later. They were not registered and they were not any death cases.
Q At any rate, witness, I can establish that you yourself did not register these people into the death book.
A No, not into the official death book.
Q Let me furthermore state that your assumption that these 18 gypsies came from Haagen's experiments is only a conclusion on your part. Witness, you have already said that you did not yourself enter these cases into the death book. Now please tell us, witness, how this copy originated which you have submitted to the Tribunal.
A I was always interested in getting hold of these names because I, as a Dutchman, knew that one day I would be free and I did want to know who found his death from our people in order that I might get back and say that these and these people died at the camp of Natzweiler. All these people were Nacht und Nebel prisoners; they were not openly registered; I only did that in the interest of my citizens.
Q Do not misunderstand me, witness. I do not in any way want to reprimand you because of that. I only want to find out how you got the original death book.
A Oh, I had access to it every day. I was in the hospital and I could take hold of the original book every day. I could do that for hours, if I wanted to; even if SS physicians were present; it was something quite ordinary.
Q And by using these entries in the original book you compiled this copy which was submitted by you?
A Yes, it was copied by me.
Q Does this copy correspond with the original in all its details?
A Yes, exactly.
Q Witness, let me finish this typhus complex. I should like to know how Haagen's work was being carried through. You were present when the first group recrived these protective vaccinations. How were these vaccinations carried out?
A Professor Haagen did them in collaboration with an assistant.
Q What I am asking you, witness, is how were they vaccinated -intramuscular, intravenous, or how?
A I cannot tell you that exactly. I was standing at the ent rance and it was my duty to let these people in.