A: That was no secret. A number of guinea pigs and white mice had been used, had already been injected before we had prisoner doctors and they were able to judge these cases.
Q: And the prisoner doctors stated that these subjects were artificially infected with live typhus?
A: Yes.
Q: Now in any event after this infection did the experimental subjects get decidedly sick?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see them yourself?
A: Yes, I nursed them.
Q: And you say that some of them died, 30 died as a matter of fact?
A: Yes.
Q: How often did Haagen visit this experimental station?
A: In the first days of the experiment he came 2 or oven 3 times a day. Later he came every day, sometimes he came on Sunday too.
Q: And you say he wore the uniform of a Luftwaffe officer?
A: Yes, I am certain of that.
Q: Can you remember what rank he held?
A: Stabsarzt.
Q: Did he ever wear civilian clothes?
A: Once or twice. I saw him in a blue suit and once in a grey suit.
Q: Now, can you tell us whether or not these experiments of Haagen, that is the typical typhus experiments conducted in the experimental station of the Ahnenerbe had any association with the typhus epidemic that was raging in Natzweiler?
A: No, certainly not.
Q: Now of these people that survived the typhus experiments what happened to them?
A: They were put on a transport to Neckar-Eltz.
Q: Well, were any of them used in other experiments?
A: Yes.
Q: Will you tell us about that please?
A: About May 1944 Haagen came back and asked for the two rooms of the Ahnenerbe again. They were already full of patients, the phlegmons, and foot and leg wounds, etc., customary diseases in the camp, and he asked for these two rooms again and experiments began - gassing experiments. He used some of these gypsies who had already been used once with the typhus experiments and some groups who were already in the camp. Then he had four groups of gypsies. He took one group after the other down to the gas room and brought them back up again. I know very well Haagen went down with these people and he came back up with the, too. What happened down there at Stutthof, where the gas chamber was, I don't know but I only know when they came back they were in a very bad way. They couldn't breathe, etc. Professor Haagen with several of the groups started with the oxygen apparatus and then gave instructions first every 1/2 hour, then every hour, then every 2 hours, that the bolld pressure was taken and breathing, etc. Some of these people died, too.
Q: How do you know they died, witness?
A: Because I nursed them myself and because I had to take them down when they died. I know with certainly that, they died of lung edema.
Q: Well now you say that Haagen ordered them to the poison experiments, to be used in the poison experiments, these 8 people?
A: I don't understand you.
Q: Did Haagen himself select these gypsies to be used in the poison experiments?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, these poison experiments are not to be confused with the experiments by Professor Hirt and Bickenbach, is that correct?
A: No, that was something entirely different.
Q: Now witness, in these experiments did the experimental subjects volunteer? That is in the first experiments of Hirt and Bickenbach, the typhus experiments of Haagen, and these poison gas experiments of Haagen?
A: Yes.
Q The experimental subjected volunteered?
A In the first experiment there were German volunteers, professional criminals and homosexuals - they were volunteers. A number of people volunteered for them but they had been promised their freedom if they volunteered. In the second experiment, the Haagen typhus experiments, they definitely were not volunteers, definitely not. I talked to these people for hours and days. In the third experiment I saw how the people cried when they were picked out after the second experiment and they cried but they couldn't do anything but do it - they couldn't get out of it because they were gypsies; definitely they were not volunteers.
Q Well, then, in the first experiment you state that the 15 subjects used were former Wehrmacht soldiers who were sent to concentration camps for some breach of duty, is that right?
A Yes, some of them; most of them were criminals and homosexuals.
Q And they absolutely volunteered -- you are sure of that?
A Yes. And they were offered a pardon if they went through the experiments?
A Yes.
Q Did they ever get it?
A No.
Q Now the experiment with gas burns, were the experimental subjects exclusively Germans or were there some Poles or Czichs or Austrians or Russians or Frenchmen used?
A No. There were only Germans in the first experiment.
Q Now in the typhus experiments you state that they were decidedly not volunteers?
A Decidedly not.
Q And were they also of just the German nationality or were the gypsies and the people used in the typhus experiments of various nationalities?
A Various nationalities.
Q Any of the Polish?
A Poles, Czechs, mostly Poles and Czechs, some Hungarians and then some German gypsies.
Q. Now these subjects used in the gas experiments, the poison gas experiments by Haagen, you state that they were not volunteers also?
A No, they were not.
Q They were not?
A No.
Q Were they also of various nationalities?
A Yes.
Q Now, witness, you have stated here that you had an opportunity to copy the death books of the Natzweiler Camp. Do you have the copies that you made with you or are they in your possession?
A Yes.
Q Could you explain to the Tribunal....
THE PRESIDENT: I would like to ask the witness a question before you proceed any further. Witness, referring to the last experiment concerning which you testified, you said that the experimental subjects were of various nationalities. What nationalities were they?
A Czichs and Poles and 1 Hungarian.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, conusel.
Q Now, would you explain to the Tribunal just what those books and copies are that you have made and would you try to point out to the Tribunal what deaths are listed in the books which coincide with your testimony that deaths occurred in these particular experiments? Would it be possible to do that from a study of your books?
A Yes.
Q Would you do that for us and tell us just what the books purport to be?
A Yes. I have these books here. We did not have the names of the Gypsies. We had just the numbers and when they died we just put down "1 gypsy, 3 gypsies" etc., but not the names and not the numbers either. We were not given those. In the last experiment I do have the names and the other people who died, died in Dachau because in the meantime there was the evacuation from Natzweiler.
Here is the book.
Q Would you kindly pass those books up to the Tribunal first, so that they can look at them?
(Book is passed up to the Tribunal.)
Q Witness, is this book a copy? Is that the original book that was made by yourself or other inmates?
A That is a copy of the original.
Q When was that copy made?
A Until the last day of the evacuation.
Q Who made that copy?
A A Norwegian prisoner, a Luxembourg prisoner, and myself.
Q Now, will you point out to the Tribunal what entries in that book indicate the deaths that you have outlined here in your testimony?
A Yes.
A While the Tribunal is still looking at the book I will ask you another question. Did you ever draft charts at the experimental station, inasmuch as you were a draftsman in civilian occupation?
A You mean did I make drawings for Professor Haagen?
Q Yes.
A I kept the list of statistics that showed the course of the case history of the last experiment; I mean from hour to hour.
Q That is the poison gas experiment?
A Yes.
AAnd did you work together in making that chart with Professor Haagen?
A It was like this. Haagen wanted somebody who could draw well and my Capo, the hospital Capo, assigned me to do this because I was already working there. When I made this list Haagen sat next to me and gave me instructions on how I was to do it.
Q Well, could you ascertain from this chart whether or not the experimental subjects had died?
A I don't know. I don't remember.
Q Well, was Haagen particularly interested in whether or not these subjects died? Just what was his interest in these experiments -- do you have any idea?
A The course of the disease and if people died they were taken down to the crematorium. I don't know how many, but an autopsy was performed there.
Q Well, now, you state that by the death books, 4 of these subjects used in the gas experiments, poison gas experiments by Haagen, died. Can you point out what you mean by that by use of the book?
A Yes.
Q Would you do that please? What page in the book would you find that, and explain the entry that you have there in the book, and just what it means, to the Tribunal.
A Yes. Hodassi, Andreas; Rebstock, Zisko, born 28 may 1901. There was an autopsy performed on him. I know that for certain.
Q Well, now, was he one of the subjects used in the experiment?
A Yes.
Q How do you know that?
A He was in my ward.
Q You knew the man?
A Yes, I knew all these people. I can remember many of them very well. And Robstock, I had to wash him, I remember, because he was to be taken down to the autopsy room.
MR HARDY: Do you have a question, your Honor?
BY THE PRESIDENT: Under what date is that annotation contained in the book?
AAt the end of June 1944.
Q Are the pages of this book numbered?
A Yes.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q What page is that on -- that entry that you referred to?
A No, there was just a number and it was entered under the month of June - at the end of the month of June - but in the original book there were the dates of death, June 1, June 2, etc. - but not in this copy.
Q Well, now, is that copy numbered -- is each page numbered? In other words, is it paginated 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. -- the pages?
A No. No.
Q Well, then, how could I find that entry in that book. What would be the method for me to identify what page that is on?
THE PRESIDENT: I would suggest that during the noon hour.....
A It says June, 1944.
Q And the book goes through in calendar order, is that correct? In other words the first page of the book starts with what date? What date is the first page?
A The first page begins 1942.
Q. And it goes through to what date, to the end of the book?
AAugust 1944.
Q And, now, there are actually 2 book, aren't there?
A One book for European and one book for Polish and Russian prisoners. The Russian and Polish prisoners were kept in a separate book. That is this book.
Q Well, now, were any of the deaths in these experiments of people in the second book - the Russian and Polish prisoners?
A Only the Polish people and the Russians. Not the gypsies. Only Poles and Russians.
Q I see. Well, now.....
A Yes, those are all deaths.
Q Would you give those books to us so that we can offer them in evidence here before this Tribunal, or do you wish to retain them?
A I would like to have them back later.
Q Then could we have them reproduced and keep them on loan from you for a period of several weeks and return them to you at a later date?
A Yes.
MR. HARDY: If your Honor please, I would like to paginate the book, with permission of your Honors, with perhaps a red pencil, wo that we can refer to them more thoroughly.
THE PRESIDENT: I was about to suggest that the books be paginated with a red or blue pencil and carefully numbered from 1 on, and the....
MR. HARDY: Other than having the witness point out the particular death in the book I have no other questions to put to him, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: This pagination can be done during the noon recess today and, of course, defense counsel will have an opportunity to examine the books. I think they might examine them during the noon recess also. Give the books in the custody of the secretary of this court and they could examine them in his custody.
MR. HARDY: All right, your Honor. Then in that case, your Honor, I have no further questions, other than the questions I wish to put to him concerning the book and I cannot very well put them without identifying the pages therein.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 30 June 1947.)
GERRIT H. NALE - Resumed Direct Examination (Continued)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BY MR. HARDY:
Q Your Honors, I have five indexes of the documents, which have been marked for identification and will be offered formally in the English language by defense counsel by numbers. We have the document number, the exhibit and the transcript page in which they appear in the official record.
The pagination of the Death book is ready.
Now, Mr. Nale, I should like you to take the Death Book, which you have made up and indicate to the Tribunal, going through the Death book page by page, the death which resulted as a result of the experiments, that is, to inmates used in the experiments and to explain each death therein as you know it from your own knowledge.
(The Book is handed to the witness).
THE PRESIDENT: There are two books; what book are you submitting to the witness?
BY MR. HARDY:
Q I am only going to submit one, Your Honor. The only one he has is the one that refers to this situation. The other one is a Polish and Russian death book which has no connection with the experiments at all.
Now on page 1, Mr. Nale, are there any deaths on that page which refer to people used in the experiments?
A No.
Q On page 2 are there any deaths there that refer to persons used in experiments?
A No.
Q On what page is the first page where a death appears?
A Page 16.
Q Page 16; now which person there died as a result of the experiments?
A On Page 16 the B.V. inmate 1219, Josef Rufer, born on 9 March 1896.
Q Now, which subject is he on that page, counting from the top, which subject is he on page 16?
A The eighth counting from above.
Q That is the eighth name counting from above, page 16, is the name of a man who died in the experiments; which experiments?
A That was the first experiment of the Ahnenerbe.
Q That is the gas burning experiments or the typhus experiment or the poisonous gas experiments; which one?
A It was the gas burning experiment.
Q Now do you know from your own knowledge whether that man died or do you know only from your knowledge of the book?
A I saw this corpse personally.
Q Now is this one of the men of the group that volunteered?
A Yes.
Q Well now, do you know what these first 15 men used in the gas burn experiments volunteered for?
A No, certainly not.
Q Well, did they volunteer for a dangerous experiment or for a harmless experiment?
A They volunteered for a harmless experiment.
Q Then in other words they did not expect to die as a result of the experiments?
A No.
Q Were they warned that the experiments were going to be very severe and might cause death?
A No.
Q Now go to the next death as a result of experiments in that book.
A This is on page 17.
Q Will you count from the top and tell us the number of the subject on the page, so that we will have a proper reference, Mr. Nale?
A It is the 12th name counting from above.
Q On page 17; now what is the name there?
A Professional Criminal No. 1656, Karl Kirn, born on 14 September, 1907.
Q And what experiment was he used in?
A He was used for the same experiment as in the case before, it was the gas burn experiment.
Q Do you personally know of that death; did you see that corpse also?
A Yes.
Q Now, will you go to the next death which occurred as a result of the experiment?
A Now we come to the third death case as a result of the gas burn experiments, it is the 13th name oh page 17 from above, Professional Criminal, No. 1346, Friedrich Dries, born 6 April 1905.
Q Does the record show the date of death?
A No.
Q Can you tell me whether you saw that corpse or not?
A Yes.
Q Now, will you turn to the next death, which you have written down in that book, which occurred as a result of some of the experiments?
A Yes, on page 38 you find experiments with typhus. The 12th name counting from above, you find a group of 18 gypsies; none of the names are mentioned.
Q Well, how do you know that refers to the gypsies that died in the typhus experiments?
A Because only gypsies were entered into that book without names or numbers, all other inmates entered in this death book bear a name and number.
Q Weren't there any other gypsies in the camp other than the gypsies being used for typhus experiments?
A Yes.
Q You said yes, do you mean there were other gypsies or there were not other gypsies?
A In addition to these gypsies, there were other gypsies who were normally registered in the camp.
Q Could it be possible that these deaths referred to other gypsies, that is gypsies other than those used in the typhus experiments?
A That is out of the question.
Q Well, now you see on page 36.......
A Page 38.
Q Page 38 there are 18 blank spaces where the names should be.
A Yes, there are 18 gypsies who died as a result of the experiments.
Q Well, what does the entry say in the book on page 18 to indicate that these were 18 gypsies?
A Between the last deaths and the following deaths there are the words, "18 Gypsies."
Q I see and that is on what line on page 38; Line No. 12?
A The 12th line from above.
Q Did you personally ever see any of those gypsies?
A I saw all of them.
Q Did you see the corpses?
A Yes.
Q Now can you tell us from which room in the experimental station those corpses came from, as I recollect your testimony, you stated that Haagen divided his experimental subjects up into two groups, one group was in room no.
1 and one group was in room No. 2; now do you know where those 18 gypsies were in; room 1 or room 2; do you understand the import of my question?
A Yes and I cannot tell you that exactly, most of them belonged to the group which was not protected.
Q And that group was in which room, the ones that were not protected I mean.
AAhnenerbe Room 1.
Q And the group that were vaccinated were in Room 2?
A Yes, they were housed in the dressing room, which was Room 2.
Q Now, will you go to the next entry in the book, which indicates to you that these are records of deaths which occurred as a result of experiments?
A Then we go over to page 39, the second line down from above; here we have one gypsy, he is entered in the same way that the other 18 are.
Q I see -- and the next entry?
A On line No. 5 counting from above, there is another gypsy.
Q On page 39?
A Yes, page 39.
Q Then indicate the next entry.
A On line 7 you find another gypsy entered.
Q On page 39?
A Yes.
Q Now, the next entry?
A Page 39, line 11, you find three gypsies.
Q And the next entry?
A Now, we go over to page 40, second line from above - one gypsy.
Q And the next entry?
A Fourth line from above, 2 gypsies.
Q And the next?
A Line 11 from above, one gypsy.
Q And the next entry?
A Now we go over to page 43, the 8th line from above, 1 gypsy.
Q Yes...
A I repeat line 8, page 43.
Q And the next?
A These are deaths caused as a result of typhus experiments.
Q Now, do you have any further deaths, which are recorded in that death book, which you have knowledge about?
A Yes.
Q Would you point those out, please?
Q As a result of gas poisoning experiments you find on page 74, 7th line from above, the gypsy 6587, name - Fodassy Andreas, presumably a Hungarian, he was born on 12 February 1911.
Q And how do you know that that name referred to in that entry is one and the same as the man experimented on by Haagen in the poison gas experiments?
A Because after the name, there is the letter "V" inserted.
Q And what does "V" mean?
A I, myself, made that notation for the word "Versuch" for experiment.
Q Did you see that experimental subject dead?
A Yes.
Q Go to the next entry, please.
A Now, we stay on the same page, the 8th line from above, there you find the gypsy 6516, the name of Rebstock Cirko, born on 28 May 1901.
Q Now those two gypsies, on page 74 or is it -- what page is that?
A Yes.
Q Page 74, is that true, page 74?
A Yes.
Q Those two gypsies you saw being subjected to poison gas experiments; is that right?
A. No, I saw them already as they were led down.
Q. What do you mean by, you saw them as they were led down?
A. These men who were selected for this last experiment were led to the gas chamber in groups. That was in the concentration camp, Natzweiler.
Q. And then later you saw them dead?
A. Yes, I later saw these people dead.
Q. Will you go to the next entry?
A. Yes, I should like to explain one thing first, however.
Q. Go right ahead.
A. The gypsy, Rebstock, Cirko, I remember very well, I received the order to wash him to cleanse him.
Q. You mean after he was dead?
A. Yes, after he was dead. And then I had to take him down towards the crematory into the autopsy room. He was to be autopsied.
Q. Did you ever wash any of the other experimental subjects after they died?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. How many, would you say?
A. As a rule, all of them were washed.
Q. Did you wash any of the experimental subjects in the typhus experiments after they died?
A. Certainly.
Q. Go to the next entry, please.
A. Now we go over to page 75, second line from above. Here you have the gypsy, 6545, Adalbert Eckstein; born on the 2nd of February, 1924. This is the second line from above on page 75.
Q. Did you see him dead also?
A. Yes.
Q. To the next entry, please.
A. Now we go to page 81, the second line from below; here is the gypsy, 6564, the name Rheinhardt Mideti, Josef, born on the 27th of August, 1913.
Q. Did you see him dead?
A. Yes.
Q. Go to the next entry, please.
A. At the extreme bottom of page 81 you find the gypsy, 6521, probably a Czech. His name is Rositzka, Josef; born on the 18th of December, 1909.
Q. And you also saw him dead?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any other entries there recording deaths as a result of the experiments?
A. No.
Q. Is that a complete list of those you know died as a result of the experiments you told the Tribunal about this morning?
A. Yes, these are the last cases of which I was speaking.
Q. Witness, that book that you have in your hand, do you certify that that is a true extract of the death book at Natzweiler, taken by yourself and two other inmates?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your home address now?
A. Rotterdam.
Q. What street number, please; so that we can return this book to you in due time, I want your name in the record and your address, so that we can fulfil the promise of returning these things to you after we have had them reproduced.
A. Yes, Nales, Gerrid, Hendrick; born-
Q. We don't need that. Just your street address, where we can mail this to you.
A. Slachekstraat, 87-A-Rotterdam
Q. And the name of that is Slaghek, is that correct?
A. Slaghekstraat, 87-A.
Q. That is in Rotterdam?
A. Rotterdam.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, at this time I would like to introduce this death book as certified by the witness, and give it a Prosecution exhibit number. This wil not, of curse, be introduced as an exhibit for identification, but as an exhibit formally, and the procedure in offering an exhibit with number and then having it reproduced, does the Tribunal wish that that duty be discharged by the Prosecution or the Secretary-General?
THE PRESIDENT: That duty should be performed by the SecretaryGeneral, who will be custodian of the volume and will return it to the owner after the usefulness of the book has been served here.
MR. HARDY: Thank you. I have no further questions, Your Honor.
I will mark that book as Prosecution's Exhibit 560 and entitle the book rather than give it a document number: "Death Book, Natzweiler," which is Exhibit 560.
THE PRESIDENT: The exhibit will be received in evidence with the understanding which I referred to a moment ago.
MR. HARDY: No further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I note the presence of Dr. Froeschmann, the attorney for the Defendant Brack.
The Tribunal, Doctor, has approved your application for the attendance of the witness in the Russian Zone, with the understanding, however, that the affidavit which you desire to take from this witness must be taken and presented to the Tribunal prior to the close of the evidence in the case.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Thank you, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross examination of this witness by defense counsel may proceed.
CROSS EXAMINATION DR. WEISGERBER (Counsel for defendant Sievers):
Q. Witness, from March 1942 until 4 September 1944 you were in Natzwiler?
A. Yes.
Q. From when were you working as an assistant nurse at the socalled departnent Ahnenerbe?
A. Ever since November 1942.
Q. November 1942? When did the so-called burning experiments start?
A. That was in November 1942.
Q. Very well. The experimental subjects came from outside or had they been selected in Natzweiler?
A. They were selected in the camp itself.
Q. You have already testified that these experimental subjects had volunteered?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know this fact?
A. They were selected at the block and they were told that this would be a simple matter only for which they would receive better nourishnent. In view of the need inside the camp these people volunteered.
Q. Who told that to these people?
A. The man who selected them.
Q. That was the camp physician?
A. The SS camp physician of Natzweiler.
Q. The SS camp physician of Natzweiler?
A. Yes.