Q But you had never seen him before the time you were ordered to be his assistant?
A Yes sir, when he made his rounds through the camp I saw him some times.
Q I see. And the reason why you never became his assistant was because a special laboratory to be built was not in fact built?
A No.
Q And who told you that a laboratory was to be built?
A That was told to me. I mean, also by one of the prisoners who were working in the hospital.
Q I see. Well, now this job of yours fell through as assistant to Dr. Haagen what did you do then?
A So i had nothing to do and then I met George Bogartz who was a prisoner, too, and a Belgian surgeion and he had to make the autopsies for the hospital, the normal autopsies, who were ordered by the prisoner physicians. When somebody was suspected to have been died By typhus we should look after that and give a report, and he asked me, George Bogartz, if I would like to assist him by his work and so I became his assistant.
Q Did you ever perform autopsies on some gypsies?
A Yes sir. That was one morning. I was called by Bogartz and he said, "Now we have a job, I don't like it but we have to do it."
TEE PRESIDENT: Witness, about what date was that?
A I don't know exactly the date but it can have been in May or June.
BY MR. HARDY: Of 1944?
A Of 1944.
Q Continue witness.
A He said, "They have poisoned with gas some gypsies and the corpses of the dead we'll have to make a section of." So we went to the crematory and there was a section room there where we found on the table a naked corpse of a gypsy which was a young man in a good state, a good physical state.
And we saw there that there were blue colored spots on his skin. We waited for a moment and then came in a German in civies, he was wearing knickerbockers, and he was accompanied by an assistant and this assistant had with him some apparatus and photograph apparatus and photo cameras. And now we started on the direction of this German, we started our autopsy.
Q Do you know who that German was?
A I asked afterwards and people told me it was Haagen but when I was afterwards -- when afterwards I was - they showed me photograms I know exactly that it was Hirt.
Q That it was Professor Hirt?
A Professor Hirt, yes.
Q I see. Continue.
A We made the autopsy in a common way beginning with a longitudinal cut through the skin of the thorax and then prepared the thorax muscles and afterwards cut the ribs and put up the sternum with the ribs so that we could see the inner of the thorax. And then it was very good to see that the lungs were edematous. They were so very swollen that the triangle of the heart was covered totally by the edges of the two lungs. And we had to take out the intestines of the thorax after they were filmed on the spot. And we put them down on the section table and they were filmed again and they were also taking photograms.
Q Was it obvious from the autopsy just what the cause of death was in the case of these two corpses?
A I discussed it afterwards with Dr. Bogartz and we came to the conclusion that this man was poisoned with a gas effecting the respiratory intestines, the respiratory system. For when we made the section through the larynx we saw that the mucosa was swollen and very red. Afterwards we had to take little samples of the intestines and had to put them in little bottles with alcohol and it seems that it was for the purpose of making histological investigations afterwards.
I don't know if these histological investigations were done in the pathological section of the hospital of the camp or that Dr. Hirt took these samples with him outside the camp. And after the autopsy Dr. Hirt told me how to write down. He dictated me the protocol and I wrote it down it was later typed by the administration room of the hospital of the camp.
Q Now, at these first 2 autopsies who was present?
A Present was Professor Hirt, an assistant, and I believe there was another assistant one time, a second assistant, and there was George Bogartz and me and that were the people present who were there.
Q Did Professor Haagen appear at any time during the course of the autopsy?
A One time Dr. Haagen entered and he was accompanied by a blonde girl and by some of the officers of the camp. I believe he was making his round through the camp and he would like to see what happened here and to show it to this blonde girl.
Q Well, now when Professor Haagen came in were you performing an autopsy on an inmate?
A Yes, I was performing an autopsy on a gypsy.
Q Was that a different case than the two cases you told us about?
A Yes, it was one of these two cases.
Q I see. Did Dr. Haagen ask any questions or did he merely just stop in, look, and leave.
A He stepped in and he talked with Dr. Hirt and the blonde girl stayed in the opening of the door and then after some talking he went again. I don't know if they talked about these experiments or if they was talking about something else.
Q I see. Did you ever see Professor Haagen in uniform?
A Yes sir.
Q What type of uniform did he wear? That is the uniform of the SS, or the Wehrmacht, of the Luftwaffe, or the Navy, or what?
A I mean it was not the common uniform we saw there and I believe it was the blue uniform of the Luftwaffe.
Q Did Professor Hirt wear a uniform when he was at the camp?
A I don't think so. I mean the two or three times I saw him he was in knickerbockers.
Q I see. Now after the 2 autopsies on the gypsies did you ever perform any other autopsies on gypsies who had supposedly been poisoned by gas?
A No sir.
Q Did you ever perform autopsies on any other inmates who were used in experiments?
A No sir.
Q Then the extent of your knowledge in your capacity as an autopsy man in connection with experiments is the two cases of gypsies whom you autopsied and diagnosed as having died as the cause of gas poisoning?
A Yes sir.
Q I have no further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, do I understand you to testify that your findings in the autopsy of the cause of death of these two gypsies was the same, that is, the cause of death was the same in each case?
A. Yes, Sir, it was the same.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for defendants may cross-examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. TIPP (Counsel for the defendants Schroeder and Becker-Freyseng:)
Q. Witness, if I understood you correctly, the camp physician, Dr. Platzer, requested you to become Professor Haagen's assistant, isn't that right?
A. No, that is not right. Dr. Platzer asked me to become an assistant in the hospital but he did not mention the name of Dr. Haagen.
Q. And who did ask you to carry out Haagen's bacteriological work and become his assistant?
A. It was only Dr. Platzer who ordered me to be an assistant in the hospital and I afterwards heard from the prisoner-physicians in the camp that I should work for Dr. Haagen.
Q. If I understood you correctly, you never actually worked for Haagen, did you?
A. I never actually worked for Haagen.
Q. You also told us that, from your own knowledge, you could not tell us whether Haagen, after May 1944, carried out any experiments in the concentration camp, isn't that right?
A. Yes. I don't say exactly that I know about that but there was much gossip about that in camp.
Q. You have no knowledge of your own about that?
A. I have no knowledge of my own about that.
Q. Now as to the question of autopsies, witness. You were telling us before that you assisted in the case of 2 autopsies and that the cause of death in the cases of those 2 autopsies was found to be gas poisoning or disintegration of the lung because of gas, is that right?
A. That is right.
Q. Let me establish, witness, that the man that participated in these autopsies was Professor Hirt, not Professor Haagen.
A. That is right.
Q. Furthemore, witness, you were seeing that Professor Haagen at one time attended one such autopsy, accompanied by a member of the camp and a blond lady, to when he obviously intended to show the camp. In that connection, witness, let me ask you was an autopsy in the concentration camp of Natzweiler something that attracted particular attention, or were corpses autopsied there on frequent occasions?
A. There were autopsies on frequent occasions but I thought that this dissection drew the attention and that therefore he came to show it perhaps to that girl or that he would see what we were doing on his round through the camp, where he was the main doctor of the camp who came every week and sometimes every weak to look after the barracks with typhus patients.
Q. Very well, witness. You just told us that Haagen came to the camp once a week or more often than that and looked at the typhus barracks. Could you describe these typhus barracks to the Tribunal? Who was in there?
A. In these typhus barracks were laying the typhus patients. These typhus barracks were situated in the lowest part of the camp. The camp was built on the north side of a mountain in the Alsace and the barracks were laying on terraces and we had 2 rows of terraces; when you cane in the main entrance we had 2 rows of barracks on your left hand and between those 2 rows of barracks we had a so-called Appell-place (roll-call square) also in terraces.
Q. Witness, if I understood you correctly, were inmate patients, typhus patients, put into these typhus barracks?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. They were not, as it might be derived from your testimony, subjects who had been used for experiments but they were people who had fallen ill of typhus?
A. No but there was a secret part of one of the blocks and nobody of us could enter it; it was forbidden; and there should be these experiments with gypsies. Most of it I heard by the gossip in the camp and by camp physicians who said they could state it. I never saw it myself.
Q. In that case you have no knowledge of what was going on in the experimental barracks?
A. No, I have no knowledge about that.
Q. Very well, witness, one further question. Do you know anything about the fact that in the spring or summer of 1944 a typhus epidemic had broken out in Natzweiler, or do you know nothing about it?
A. Yes, sir; there was a typhus epidemic beginning in the winter of 1943---in 43 --44.
Q. Well, this epidemic started at a time when you were already in the camp, or was that before your time?
A. That was a new epidemic; when I was already in the camp it started.
Q. Could you tell the Tribunal, witness, perhaps you know it because of your connection with the camp physicians, how many patients there were in the camp at that time?
A. I do not know that. I cannot give any effective number of these patients.
Q. Do you know, witness, whether, during the course of this epidemic, there were any deaths?
A. Yes, sir, many death cases.
Q Let us revert once more to Mr. Haagen. You had not actually cooperated with Professor Haagen, had you?
A. No, sir.
Q. May I further establish that you know nothing about what Mr. Haagen had done in the spring and summer of 1944, from your own knowledge?
A. No, sir, I do not exactly know that from my own knowledge.
DR. TIPP: Thank you. I have no further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any other questions to this witness by any defense counsel?
BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for defendant Hoven):
Q. Witness, do you know the City Councillor of Amsterdam, Stadtrat Seegers?
A. No, I do not know him.
Q. Do you know a Dutchman by the name of Pieck?
A. Yes, but I do not know him personally. I do not know him personally.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor. I submit that this cross-examination on the part of defense counsel must be limited to what I brought up in direct examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection overruled. Counsel may examine the witness generally.
Q. What is Pieck's reputation in Holland?
A. I do not know that exactly. I cannot give any information about that.
Q. Do you know a Dutchman with the name of Baron Palland van Erder?
A. No, I do not know him.
Q. Do you know a Dutchman with the name of Jan Robert?
A. No, sir, I do not know him.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you, I have not further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further examination of this witness by defense counsel?
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q. Witness, will you be good enough to answer a few questions for the Tribunal, please? As I understand your testimony, you were arrested by the Gestapo on the 21st day of July, 1942?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you were then given a trial for underground resistance activity and for spy intelligence activity and were acquitted? You were acquitted?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. By what type of Court, or group, were you tried, do you know?
A. Yes, sir. The first trial was by the Wehrcacht. That was an O.D. trial. That was a trial in Haaren. The second trial.....
Q. That was a trial where?
A. In Haaren, H-a-a-r-e-n. And the first trial was in Utrecht.
Q. Do you mean the first or second trial?
A. The second trial was in Utrecht, under the direction of the Luftwaffe.
Q. You then were in 2 trials by a military court or commission of some sort?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The first one by the Wehrmacht?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. The second one by the Luftwaffe?
A. Yes, sir.
Q And then as I understand you were acquitted upon both charges?
A Yes Sir.
Q How long after that was it before you were taken in custody and sent to Natzweiler?
A I was already in custody. I never came free. I was in custody from the 21st of July and I was brought to Natzweiler.
Q By whom
A By the Green Police.
Q And what sort of an organization was that, do you know?
A The Green Police was an organization who had to maintain the order in the state, and was always helping when transports were going to guard us, but the transport fuehrer was a man from the S.D. named Heirich.
Q Were you told for what reason you were being retained in custody after your acquittal or for what reason you were being transported to Natzweiler?
A No, they never said it to us. It was common that people who were acquitted were brought to concentration camps, seldom they came free.
Q Then you were never advised why you were in custody and were being transported to Natzweiler?
A No, sir, they suspected me, but they had no evidence against me.
Q Was anything told you after you after you were acquitted as to why you were being transported to Natzweiler?
A No, sir.
Q How many people were in your transport?
A Between 150 and 170.
Q And how were you conveyed to Natzweiler?
A With a train.
Q And that train, as I understand, was under the supervision of an S.D. officer?
A Yes, Paul Heinrich.
Q He was a German?
A He was a German.
Q And for what purposes were you sent to Natzweiler, you said something about the Nacht und Nebel.
A The Nacht und Nebel.
Q You were in that group and under that Nacht und Nebel decree? How do you know that?
A We saw one time in Armersfoerth when waiting for our transport we saw Heinrich who visited us and talked to us and he had a paper in his hand and it read something like "Nacht und Nebel Erlasse."
Q Can you say to what extent from your own knowledge--
A Yes, from my own knowledge.
Q Can you say to what extent from your own knowledge other citizens from you country were put in similar transports for the concentration camps?
A Yes, sir. Afterwards there came other people who came to the camp. When we came in the camp we had to paint with red, -- what do you call that, -- we had to paint letters on our clothes.
Q Stencil letters of some sort?
A Yes, two N's on our back, and on our legs, on our breeches.
Q Was that true of all the people who came in under that decree?
A Yes, only for the people who came in under that decree.
Q Did you ever see a document or paper of any kind while you were in the camp which denoted the type of custody under which you were held, whether you were hold as a political prisoner, a bible researcher, or a professional criminal or a race poluter while you were held?
A Yes, when we came in we were adjusted in the Politische Abteilung, the political department and we saw how they filled out and they wrote down our names and the filled in two papers on the Nacht und Nebel, and afterwards when we came to Dachau at first I wrote, -- at first I could write a letter. It was forbidden for the Nacht und Nobel to write a letter or receive parcels or other things, and I wrote a letter twice, and the third time I was writing, then one of the German SS said to me that I could not write for I mas still Nacht und Nebel.
Q And what did you understand that to mean?
A Nacht und Nebel meant that you were put in prison, nobody knew where, you couldn't write letters to home and you couldn't receive parcels. The people at home didn't knew where you were and we should go at night and Nacht und Nebel forever.
Q And do you know whether or not the record which showed your name, where you came from and the reason for your custody was kept on file there?
A Yes, sir, it was kept there, but I never saw it.
JUDGE SEBRING: I see. Thank you. I have no further questions.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, referring to these trials that you had, how many judges set on these trials, one man or more than one?
A There were about four or five judges with the president. The president was in the first trial of the Wehrmacht, and the Richter of the Luftwaffe, his name was Klump, and in the second trial of the Luftwaffe it was Judge Powschele.
Q Were you represented by counsel?
A Yes, sir. We had German counsels.
THE PRESIDENT: No further questions.
DR. GAWLIK: Gawlik counsel for Hoven. Mr. President, I have a number of other questions in addition to the questions you just put.
Q How long were you arrested?
A From the 21st of July 1942 until the 29th of April 1945.
Q Was it possible that Nacht und Nebel inmates were ever released and under what conditions would they be released?
A I have never heard of a case that Nacht und Nebel was released, for most of them were sent to extermination camps, like my case.
Q In what concentration camp were you?
A In Holland in Armersfoerth.
Q I am speaking of Germany now.
A In germany in Narzweiler and afterwards in Dachau.
Q Your statements therefore only refer to the camps of Natzweiler and Dachau?
A Yes, sir.
Q If I now put to you, witness, that a camp physician of another camp has succeeded in getting a large number of Nacht und Nebel inmates released would you agree with me that this was an exception?
A Yes, sir.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any other question of the witness?
Does the Prosecution desire to conduct redirect examination?
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q Witness, before your two trials you state that you were first arrested by the Gestapo in July of 1942 and then you were condemned to death without a trial?
A Yes sir.
Q Now, who condemned you to death without a trial in the first instance?
A I was interrogated about eleven days and on the evening of the 10th day there came in an officer of the SD, and he had a paper in his hand and he told me that I was condemned to death by a Standgericht. I don't know what court martial and then he said I would be shot down the next morning for spy work and political activities.
Q And then the next morning you were actually blind-folded?
A Yes, I was blindfolded and handcuffed and they took me with them. I thought I should have been shot, but they brought me to one or another room I don't know where and then they put me before a high ranking officer, I believe an Obergruppenfuehrer of the SD. This man asked me some questions and then he said to me, "You must see this whole case as an error and you must forget it and you must never speak about it."
Q Did he then release you and let you return home or keep you in jail?
A No, I was still kept in jail.
Q Then you later had the two trials?
A Yes sir.
Q In these particular transports in which Nacht und Nebel inmates were in; do you know what happened to all the Nacht und Nebel inmates when they arrived at the camp?
A Yes sir, most of us came in these heavy commands of "Strassenbau."
Q Did they exterminate any of the Nacht und Nebel prisoners?
A Yes, many of them were slain in their work while working with the carriage.
Q Was it known that the system was to exterminate Nacht und Nebel prisoners?
A Yes sir, it was a so-called extermination camp and the Nacht und Nebel -Haeftlinge had to be treated worse than the others.
Q I see. I have no further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary will file for the record the certificate from Captain Roy A. Martin, captain Medical Corps, Prison Physician, U. S. Army, stating that the defendant Herta Oberhauser is a patient in the 385th station hospital, U. S. Army. The diagnosis is acute gastroenteritis. The Secretary will file the certificate.
The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. HARDY: The prosecution has no further questions to put to this witness, Broers.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness Broers is excused from the witness stand.
MR. HARDY: Before I proceed to the next witness, Your Honor, the question of the formal introduction of the prosecution's documents which have been marked for identification is one which the Tribunal discussed in the presence of the prosecution and the defense counsel at a meeting in chambers several weeks ago, and the Tribunal stated that they would look over the documents and then indicate which ones or take an assumption that they would all be subjected to objections and so forth. Now, in order to assist the Tribunal in that matter I have now prepared two sets of all the documents marked for identification, with an index. I will have, before the end of the day or by tomorrow morning, additional complete sets prepared and likewise maybe one or two for defense counsel. Everybody has copies of these particular documents but I will give these two sets to the Tribunal now in the period of the next half a day or this evening and they can look over these two sets and instruct us in a most expeditious way to introduce these for formal acceptance.
THE PRESIDENT: Has the prosecution any evidence to introduce this afternoon?
MR. HARDY: I have a witness to call now, Your Honor, and this afternoon I have no evidence to introduce, other than these documents which are marked for identification. And if it is possible for me to get all books together, that is, two or three more books together, by this afternoon, I will be able to take up the identification problem. After that time the prosecution may have one more witness to call and may have two or three other miscellaneous rebuttal documents; other than this, we have no further testimony to offer.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, I ask the prosecution first to submit a list of documents which are offered really for identification up to now and which are finally to be admitted in evidence, so that we will have a period of twenty-four hours to examine these documents.
MR. HARDY: Of course, Your Honor, that is unnecessary but I will have the list. The twenty-four-hour period does not apply here. The defense has had some of them since January 26th.
THE PRESIDENT: These documents have already been offered to the Tribunal and marked for identification and copies delivered to defense counsel. I see no occasion for any further delay in the proceedings.
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, it is not a question of the submission of the documents, but as long as the documents were only offered for identification we had no formal objections. Now, when these documents are to be admitted finally, we have to determine whether there are any formal objections. I am merely asking for a list of the numbers.
MR. HARDY: He will get that, Your Honor, in due course.
THE PRESIDENT: The list will be delivered to counsel for the defendants.
MR. HARDY: At this time, Your Honor, the prosecution wishes to call the witness Gerrid Hendrick Nales to the witness stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will summon the witness Gerrid Nales to the witness stand.
MR. HARDY: The witness's first name is spelled G-e-r-r-i-d, rather than the way it is spelled on the notice. His middle name is spelled H-e-n-d-r-i-c-k, rather than the way it is spelled in the notice. The last name is the same - N-a-l-e-s.
This witness will testify in the German language, Your Honor.
(GERRID HENDRICK NALES, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows.)
JUDGE SEBRING: Please hold up your right hand and be sworn.
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
Proceed.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Witness, do you hear in the German language?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, during the course of this interrogation, after I propound a question to you, you will kindly hesitate a moment before you answer to enable the interpreters to put the question into the German language and the answer back to me in the English.
Witness, what is your full name?
A. Nales, Gerrid Hendrick.
Q. When were you born?
A. On 1 October 1915.
Q. Where were you born?
A. In Rotterdam.
Q. You are a Dutch citizen?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you outline to the Tribunal you educational background?
A. Public school.
Q. Did you go any further than public school?
A. No.
Q. How many years of school did you have in total?
A. Eight years.
Q. What was your occupation prior to the time that you were arrested by the Gestapo?
A. I was a fashion designer and draftsman.
Q. Witness, when were you first arrested by the Gestapo?
A. On 20 August - only one day.
Q. What year?
A. 1940.
Q. Were you ever arrested for any crimes prior to the arrest by the Gestapo?
A. No, never.
Q. What was the purpose for which you were arrested in August 1940 by the Gestapo?
A. I was in a Gestapo raid on the resistance movement.
Q. Would you remember whether or not you were given a trial after your arrest by the Gestapo for underground activities?
A. Yes.
Q. You were given a trial?
A. No.
Q. Well, did they merely keep you in prison or did they release you after having arrested you in August 1940?
A. I was freed by the Dutch police. Later I was rearrested again on 13 November 1940 until 1945.
Q. And when you were arrested on 13 November - that is, rearrested were you then given a trial?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was the result of that trial?
A. We were separated and we were sent to the concentration camp Buchenwald.
Q. Well, at that trial did they pass sentence on you?
A. No.
Q. Did you have a trial before a court of judges?
A. It was a court martial. I was not convicted.
Q. How many men sat on that court martial? Did you appear before a court martial board, a group of men?
A. I don't remember exactly.
Q. And then you were sent to the Buchenwald concentration camp?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you arrive in the Buchenwald concentration camp?
A. 18 April 1941.
Q. How long did you remain in the Buchenwald concentration camp?
A. Until March 1942.
Q. And then where did you go?
A. Then I was sent on a transport to Natzweiler, concentration camp Natzweiler in Alsace.
Q. How long did you remain in Natzweiler - from March 1942 until when?
A. From 14 March 1942 until 4 September 1944.
Q. And then what happened to you?
A. Then we were transferred to Dachau.
Q. How long did you remain in Dachau?
A. Until the liberation by the Americans on Sunday, 29 April 1945.
Q. After you were transferred from Buchenwald to the Natzweiler concentration camp in March 1942, what work detail were you assigned to?
A. First I worked on barracks construction and then transport columns, the stone quarry, the DEST, and I went through all the details in the camp.
when Q. Well,/did you first become an assistant nurse.
A. November 1942, perhaps - assistant nurse.
Q. And what were your duties there in the hospital?