A Because I saw him together with Dr. Gremius.
DR. RATZ: No further questions, Your Honors.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q When you were arrested, what happened to your wife and children?
A On the second of October 1943, my wife and my child were sent away with a transport. Then, when I was at Auschwitz, I tried to obtain some information as to just what had happened to this transport -- which at that time left from Tarnow, Czernow, Bocna, Prozeml, and Krakow -- just what had happened to the transport. Then I was told they were all sent to the gas chambers and cremated.
Q Did you have two children?
A Yes; one child is with me.
Q Did you ever see your wife and your other child after you were separated from them?
A I never saw them again. The last time I saw them was at the parade ground at Tarnow.
Q You have no idea of what became of them?
A No, I only know that this transport, on the second or third of October 1943, left for Auschwitz; that all these people were immediately sent to the gas chambers without any previous selection.
Q How were you able to save one child, the one who is with you now?
A In the year 1942 when we were not as yet confined to the ghetto but when we were living in the Jewish part of town, then my maid took the child with her to a Polish village; and she kept it there. When I returned she had the child sent to me. It came to me in April 1946, to Munich.
Q Then you child was saved by your maid, your servant?
A Yes.
Q It was protected until you were released?
A Through the maid, through the servant, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further cross examination? The Marshal may escort this witness from the Courtroom.
MR. McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, I will continue with the presentation of documents from Document Book Number 7. Yesterday we had reached Document 1612-PS on Page 105 of the English Document Book; and we were concerned with the introduction of proof of the freezing experiments by Dr. Rascher and his associates at Dachau. The Document 1612-PS will be Prosecution Exhibit 213. This is a letter from Rudolf Brandt to a series of people, the first copy being sent to Dr. Rascher; the second copy is noted as illegible; the third is the Medical Office in the SS-Fuehrungshauptamt, that is, the Operational Headquarters of the SS; the fourth was sent to the defendant Pohl; the fifth to the Ahnenerbe Society.
The attached order begins on Page 106 and is a letter by Himmler to the various offices I have mentioned concerning the experiments to be carried out by Dr. Rascher in Dachau. In Paragraph 1 it states that low pressure chamber experiments are to be continued. Paragraph 2 concerns warming experiments after freezing. Number 3 is concerned with the same thing. Number 4 is about the dry freezing experiments. Paragraph 5 reads: "The procurement of the apparatus needed for all the experiments should be discussed in detail with the offices of the Reichsarzt-SS, of the SS Main Office for Economics and Administration and with the Ahnenerbe Society", which indicates that the WVHA and the defendant Pohl were consulted and assisted in procuring apparatus, funds, and other equipment to carry out the experiments by Dr. Rascher.
Document 1616-PS will be Prosecution Exhibit 214. This is a letter from Rascher to Himmler, dated 17 February 1943; and he attaches to this cover letter the report by Rascher on his freezing experiments where women were used to reward the experimental subjects.
THE PRESIDENT: We are familiar with this document.
MR. McHANEY: I simply call the Tribunal's attention to the fact that here Rascher suggested dry freezing experiments be arranged for in the concentration camp of Auschwitz because it has colder weather and more open space so that the screaming of the victims will not be noticed so much.
The next document I'd like to offer is on Page 121 of the Document Book, 1580-PS, which refers back to Rascher's suggestion that experiments be conducted in Auschwitz. A copy of this letter was directed to Pohl. This will be Prosecution Exhibit 215. Here Pohl is ordered to take the necessary steps to have the experiments conducted at Auschwitz. I go back now to Page 116 of the English Document Book, Document NO-538, which will be Prosecution Exhibit 216. This is the Sievers' diary for the year 1943; and I assume that the Tribunal is also familiar with this document. I would call your attention to the entry on the first page, 12 January 1943. It is about the middle of the page, opposite 1830 hours. "Item 1. SSUnterscharfuehrer Hamann and Mr. Wolter of the Economic and Administrative Department concerning procurement of apparati for Dr. Rascher's research," indicating that the WVHA was cooperating in securing apparatus for Rascher.
On the next page, 117, the entry for 28 January 1943 says: "Discussion in Dachau with SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl." These, of course, are entries by the defendant Sievers in the Medical Case and indicate a discussion with him by Pohl in Dachau in January 1943. Of course, Rascher's experiments were still continuing at that time. On Page 118 the entry for 26 March 1943, the second entry: "Concerning serum production, contact should be made with SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl." Then again under 29 March 1943: "Production of serum depends on SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl."
THE PRESIDENT: Will you give us again the first reference you made, Mr. McHaney?
MR. McHANEY: That was the 26th of March 1943, on Page 118, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: No, the first one. I think on the first page of the diary you mentioned one specifically.
MR. McHANEY: On Page 116 was the entry in the middle of the page opposite 1830 hours, "SS-Unterscharfuehrer Hamann." Do you find that?
MR. McHANEY: Then on the next page, on Page 117 -
THE PRESIDENT: I have the others.
MR. McHANEY: All right, fine. I think those are the only entries I wish to call the Tribunal's particular attention to. The last document in this book is on Page 123 and will be Prosecution Exhibit 217. That is Document NO-292. This is a letter from Rascher to Himmler, dated 4 April 1943, and indicates that -
DR. SEIDL: Dr. Seidl for the defendant Pohl. If I am correct, then this is Exhibit 216.
THE PRESIDENT: Exhibit 216 is the Sievers' diary, NO-538.
MR. McHANEY: Sievers diary is 216, and this last document is 217, NO-292. This is simply a letter from Rascher to Himmler dated 4 April 1943 in which he states that by a stroke of luck they had a very severe freeze in Dachau and he was able to carry out dry freezing experiments there.
Does the Tribunal wish to adjourn at this time?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
DR. RAVSCHENBACH: Dr. Ravschenbach for the defendants August Frank and Hans Loerner. The two witnesses produced by the Prosecution have both been used in order to identify several defendants. There is a possibility that the witnesses before they congregated here had seen the way in which the defendants are sitting in the Dock in the press. I, therefore, submit on behalf of August Frank and Hans Loerner that when witnesses will be produced in the future by the Prosecution, and when the Prosecution intends to ask the witness to act to identify the defendants, the defendants will sit in different order in the Dock.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, why didn't you ask the witnesses whether or not they had seen the picture that was in the paper?
DR. RAVSCHENBACH: I had no cause to do so with these witnesses so far as concerned me because they did not identify my defendants. I submit this proposition only as a precautionary measure for future cases when witnesses might be asked about my clients.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
MR. McHANEY: I see no occasion to argue on the proposal just made by defendant counsel for Frank and Hans Loerner at this time. Frankly, the Prosecution produces no witness here without first having satisfied itself that the witness did not in fact be in a position to recognize one or the other of the defendants. The normal procedure, of course, in doing that is to exhibit to the witness a series of photographs which have no name or means of identification upon them, and ask them if they recognize any of those individuals. Of course, they could not possibly receive any assistance there as to the sitting arrangement in the Dock under that procedure, but, of course, if a witness wants to perjure himself and come in here with that intention, I suppose that he could look at the paper, and probably recognize the features, perhaps, well, might intend to pick out a glossy clear photograph of the same man, but those are things I submit must be covered by proper cross examination.
As probably to the re-shuffling of the Dock before a particular witness is called, it would be rather a cumbersome matter.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we will cross the bridge when we come to it.
MR. McHANEY: Very well. The Prosecution would like at this time the indulgence of counsel as to a witness to be called to the stand, Dr. Lober. The Prosecution has not complied with the ruling of the Tribunal that defense counsel shall be given twenty-four hours advance notice. We did not anticipate that the testimony of the present witness would take such a short time.
THE INTERPRETER: Will you please repeat that please, the German interpreter did not get it.
MR. McHANEY: We did not anticipate that the testimony of the witness who was just on the witness stand, Dr. Abend, would take such a short time. Dr. Lober is here now and available to testify, and it would be most convenient if we could put him on at this time. His testimony will be substantially similar to that of Dr. Abend. In other words, it will be corroborative of what Dr. Abend has testified to with a few more details concerning the number of inmates in Ohrdruf. Both of the witnesses were inmates of Auschwitz, roughly, at the same time, as well as in Ohrdruf.
THE PRESIDENT: Has any defense counsel any objection to the Prosecution calling the witness, Dr. Lober, at this time?
DR. SEIDL: (For defendant Oswald Pohl) May it please the Court, I have no objection to the calling of this witness at this point, although the twenty-four hour rule has not been observed, but as the Prosecution themselves say, the second witness is to be interrogated on the same subject matter which has been testified to by Dr. Abend. From the cross examination of that witness by Defense Counsel, it became quite clear in how far the statements of this witness can be disputed. I therefore am of the opinion that this is a witness whose testimony will be cumulative, and I therefore ask the Court not to give way to this proposition because the examination of that witness will not produce anything different from what has been said by the first witness and by other documents in this trial.
THE PRESIDENT: Your objection, then, is not because the twenty-four hour rule has not been observed but because the testimony sought from this witness will be cumulative. The Prosecution advises that there will be other testimony offered by this witness which was not covered by the first witness, although there will be some duplication. Under those circumstances, leave to call the witness at this time is granted.
MR. MCHANEY: I ask therefore that the witness Lauber be summoned to the stand.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. McHaney, we have just been given two documents which are not in the document book. Let's straighten out the exhibit numbers on them.
They are in Document Book 5 and on the fourth page of the index. The memorandum attached to them says that they follow documents-It should read 1166 and 2341, that these documents are numbered 2146 and 1235, N.O. Where shall we put them in the document book?
MR. MCHANEY: What are the new document numbers, if the Tribunal please?
THE PRESIDENT: 2146, 1235.
MR. MCHANEY: This is Document Book 5, is it not?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Oh, this is at Page 122. This is apparently a correction.
MR. MCHANEY:NO 2146, yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: And then it goes to Page 122 as Exhibit 143?
MR. MCHANEY: Well, I am not clear that it has been given an exhibit number.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: That is the number which now appears on Page 122.
MR. MCHANEY: 143--Yes, that will take Exhibit number 143.
THE PRESIDENT: That is the first one.
MR. MCHANEY: And is substituted for the document which was originally included in the book on Page 122.
THE PRESIDENT: The other one is at Page 150, where the same situation prevails -- Exhibit 149. This new document will take the place of the one that is now in the book?
MR. MCHANEY: I think that is exactly the same situation, two different documents with the same number.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Mr. McHaney, I had already received one to substitute in there, to be marked 2146 and substituted at Page 122.
MR. MCHANEY: Mr. Hart advises me that he passed out the new insertion yesterday, and apparently you have received a new distribution from the document room.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: But this is different.
THE PRESIDENT: The document we got this morning is not the same as the one that was substituted yesterday. One is a letter from Wagner, and the other is a Liebehenschel letter, the one of this morning.
MR. MCHANEY: Well, Your Honor, I am not familiar with this book, and we'll just have to straighten it out over the noon recess. I don't know whether we now have three documents with the same number or only two. The one which should go in the record, as I understand it, is the document dated 5 May 1941, concerning the delivery of gold and rare metals.
Now, then, that is the loose document which was handed to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: This morning, just now.
MR. MCHANEY: Very well, and the one now in the book on Page 150 concerning itself with Polish and Lithuanian clerical workers in the camp is dated 21 April 1942; is that correct?
THE PRESIDENT: Exhibit 149, which is page 150, is exactly the same as the one which has just been handed up.
MR. MCHANEY: Well, if so, there is no difficulty.
THE PRESIDENT: That's right.
MR. MCHANEY: Because that probably means, since there were two different documents carrying the same number, that they put one document in your book and another one in our English book.
THE PRESIDENT: All right; now, on Page 150, Exhibit 149-
MR. MCHANEY: That is not Exhibit 149. Our Exhibit 149 is listed as NO 390, Page 151, and I do not think that -
THE PRESIDENT: That is this one; that's right.
MR. MCHANEY: I do not think that any NO 1235 has been offered or has taken an exhibit number.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, it has an exhibit number. The number 149 was reserved for it until a corrected copy could be supplied, and now we have that.
MR. MCHANEY: What exhibit number does Your Honor have for the following document, NO 390?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I have 1235, blank
MR. MCHANEY: Now we can give this a new number right now. We can call it 149-A or give it the next number in sequence.
THE PRESIDENT: Give it 149-A. All right, that is enough time on that.
DR. BERNHARD LAUBER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE MUSSMANO: Please raise your right hand and repeat after me. I swear by God the Almighty and Omniscient that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSSMANO: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. What is your full name, Dr. Lauber?
A. Dr. Lauber. My first name is Bernhard.
Q. Your last name is spelled L-a-u-b-e-r?
A. Yes.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. In Wojnicz, Poland, 1911, on the 3rd of November.
Q. Are you a Polish citizen?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Are you Jewish?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. What is your profession?
A. I am a physician.
Q. Where did you study medicine?
A. In Bologna, Italy.
Q. Did you practice medicine before the war?
A. Yes.
Q. Where?
A. At Tarnow, Poland.
Q. When did you begin to practice there and how long did it continue?
A. In 1937, the second half, until the outbreak of the war when I went to a place near Przemisl where I continued my practice.
Q. How long were you there?
A. In Przemisl until 1943, until July, 1943.
Q. Did you have to live in the ghetto there?
A. No, I did not live in the ghetto there because before July of 1943 all Jews were resettled, some of them were killed, and I was the only physician which was allowed to remain alive, I was passed over, I and my wife and my little child which was eleven months old, because I was working in the hospital. My wife and my baby of eleven months were shot by the Gestapo. I was then in the hospital working there. The hospital was half a kilometer from my home. When I returned home at lunchtime I found strange people, told me that my wife and my child had been shot, and I was looked for to be shot myself. I then went into hiding, into a farm, at a farm where I remained for two weeks. Then I ran away from there. I walked to Przemisl, to the ghetto.
Q. Have you ever seen you wife and child again?
A. No, never.
Q. And what did you do after you got to the ghetto?
A. I lived there under an assumed name. I got identity papers, and I was a street cleaner.
Q. Did there come a time when you were sent to a concentration camp?
A. That was in August 1943.
Q. And were you sent to Auschwitz?
A. No, I was sent to Schebnik, that is in Polish Galicia. I was there for about nine weeks, and from there one day, in the evening with only underwear, without any clothes, without shoes, I was loaded on a wagon and sent to Auschwitz. That was roughly on 6 November.
Q. 6 November, 1943?
A. 1943, yes.
Q. How many other persons were sent on this transport to Auschwitz with you?
A. Approximately 2500.
Q. You were sent there in freight cars?
A. In cattle wagons, in movable cattle wagons, not wagons for persons.
Q. How long did the transport take to Auschwitz?
A. Roughly three or four days.
Q. Were you provided with food and water while you were on the transport?
A. Nothing at all.
Q. How many people were there in each car?
A. About seventy to eighty people.
Q. Were you able to lie down and sleep?
A. No, there was no room.
Q. And you say that you were not provided with clothes?
A. Only underwear, but no shoes.
Q. Now, what happened after you arrived in Auschwitz?
A. The wagons were opened and we were beaten while we got out of the wagons, and we were assembled in rows and a camp doctor asked us what our professions were. Some were sent to the right side and the others to the left side. The ones on the right-hand side were loaded on trucks. I said, "I am a physician. I am thirty-three years old," so I went to the left-hand side. The ones on the right-hand side sat down, and then they were loaded on trucks and driven away. I heard later when I was in the camp, I heard that they had been sent to the gas chambers. We were driven to the camp barefoot. Snow was on the ground. It was November. We were given very dangerous beatings. One SS man cried, "Beat fast," and the other SS man beat us, "and drive slowly". So under beatings we arrived at Auschwitz. I remember very well when I entered the gate an SS man showed me the chimney and said, "Come along, there is only one road to freedom here. That is the chimney."
Q. How long did you stay in Auschwitz?
A. About one year.
Q. What work did you do while you were in Auschwitz?
A. I was what was called a nurse in one block.
Q. What was the number of the block?
A. It was I worked in Block 6, the quarrantine station, and then in the hospital of the Camp F, which was Block 15.
Q. Do you know the name of the doctor who made the selections of prisoners in your transport?
A. Dr. Mengler and Dr. Thilo.
Q. Now, Dr. Lauber, are you able to tell this Tribunal from your observations in Auschwitz that large numbers of people were being exterminated there?
A. No, I cannot give you the figure but it must have amounted to millions. I cannot say the exact figures. I cannot estimate it.
Q. Do you remember the arrival of Hungarial Jews in 1944?
A. I remember that very well.
Q. When did these transports arrive with Hungarian Jews?
A. These transports arrived between May and July, three or four trains a day, roughly three or four trains per day. They arrived either by day or by night. The tracks were in the camp, and from my place of work I could observe when these transports arrived. The transports were lines up in rows, and Dr. Mengler and Dr. Thilo and other SS men stood there, and Dr. Thilo or Mengler pointed with his thumb, his right thumb, right-hand side, left-hand side, and I remember even that on that occasion he whistled a sort of tune. The people who went to the right-hand side remained near the train, and the ones on the left-hand side went to camp. The trucks came along, and the people who stood near the train were loaded on the trucks and driven away towards the crematorium.
At that time we saw how all the chimneys of the crematorium were smoking, and the holes which had been dug near the crematorium showed big fires.
Q Did these transports of people in Auschwitz, did these persons bring with them trunks of clothing and other personal effects?
A Yes, they brought everything along. Some of them were very well dressed.
Q Do you know whether or not these Jews who were sent into Auschwitz were told that they were being resettled?
A The Jews said that they were being sent to Poland to do some work.
Q But I mean, when the Jews, for example, were evacuated from the Ghetto, were they told that they were going to be resettled by the Germans and that they should bring along all of their moveable effects, all of their moveable property?
A Yes, they were told to bring everything along. When they left the train in Auschwitz everything was taken away from them.
Q You say everything was taken from them in Auschwitz?
A Immediately, they had to leave everything in the train. That was a special order. So a group of inmates formed who occupied themselves with taking the things away from the people on arrival.
Q And were they forced to surrender the clothes which they were wearing?
A No, not at the train. The clothes were taken away from them when they took a bath.
Now, do you know what happened to this property which was taken from the inmates then they arrived, clothing?
A Yes. All clothes was assembled in the so-called material camp and from there they were sorted out and they were loaded on trains and called "presents for Pohl." They were sent to Germany.
Q Do you know whether the hair was shaved from the heads of the women before they were executed?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what was done with that hair?
A No.
Q You were going to explain about the cutting of the hair. Will you go ahead with that?
A The hair was cut off immediately on arrival, when washing in the bathing room. I didn't know where the people who were executed had their hair cut.
Q Were there large quantities of clothing and other property which were shipped out?
A Immense quantities.
Q And you say that property was called "presents for Pohl."
A Presents for Pohl. That was quite generally known in the camp.
Q Do you know who Pohl was?
A I was not interested in that. I do not know.
Q You mentioned the name, Dr. Mengele. Do you know anything about medical experiments performed in Auschwitz on inmates?
A Yes; in Block 15, where I worked, Dr. Mengele assembled roughly 60 or 80 inmates, twins. Everybody came along there every two or three weeks. He took from them about 30 or 40 cubic centimeters of blood, and before he did so the twins - they were usually children - had to starve for 24 hours.
He took X-ray photographs and a number of medical examinations. Then some of them were taken away from the Block. And what happened to them afterwards, I do not know.
Q You say he was interested in research on twins, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q Do you know whether he ever made any experiments with the ovulation of women, in an effort to determine whether a method could be devised for causing women to have twins?
A No.
Q Have you ever heard of a Dr. Klauberg?
A No.
Q Do you know anything about sterilization experiments on inmates at Auschwitz?
A Yes, I do. In my Block there worked a man who lived in the office, and he had been sterilized.
Q He had been sterilized at Auschwitz?
A In Auschwitz, yes; he had been sterilized in Auschwitz by X-ray treatment. I think he was a Czech too.
Q Do you know the doctor's name who performed these X-ray sterilizations?
A No.
Q Was he castrated after having been sterilized with X-rays or not?
A No.
Q How old a man was he?
AAbout 26 or 28 years of age.
Q Do you know of any other medical experiments in Auschwitz?
A I heard that many were castrated and that many were sterilized and Dr. Thilo carried out a number of operations, but I myself did not see it.
Q Now, Doctor, you left Auschwitz in November, 1944?
A Yes.
Q And where did you go?
A We went to Oranienburg, where we stayed for two weeks in the quarantine station. From there, we went to Sachsenhausen for two days, and from there some of us were sent to Ohrdruf. And the other part probably to Stutthof.
Q And the camp, Ohrdruf S-3, was an outside camp of Buchenwald.
A Yes.
Q Approximately how far from Buchenwald was it?
AAbout 60 kilometers.
Q And will you describe the camp in Ohrdruf?
A Yes, certainly. It was about 2 kilometers distance from the town, on a hill, and formerly these were SS barracks - at least we were told so. When we arrived there were no beds and no equipment of any sort. We had to, from a so-called prisoner-of-war camp at a distance from our camp of about half a kilometer, fetch certain equipment such as tables, benches, beds and so on, and take them to the North camp. That was done, of course, in the first case after our arrival, and we had to run to and fro and were beaten by the SS men.
Q You mentioned the North Camp. Was there also a South Camp?
A Yes, there was a South Camp. Near Ohrdruf another two camps were founded - Krawinkel and Zeltlager.
Q Now, was the North Camp a work camp?
A Up to the first half of January it was a work camp.
Roughly in the middle of January it was used as a hospital place.
Q In other words, before the middle of January, 1945, the North Camp of Ohrdruf S-3 was a work camp.
A Yes.
Q And then afterwards it was a convalescent camp.
A It was a camp for ill people.
Q What sort of work were they doing at Ohrdruf?
A I was a male nurse
Q I mean, what type of general construction work was being done in the camp of Ohrdruf?
A Twelve kilometers from Ohrdruf they built in the mountains, tunnels, underground.
Q Were the tunnels very large?
A It was a very large operation and very heavy work. We started it.
Q And how many inmates did they have working there?
A From the North Camp and the South Camp - people worked from all four camps, in other worked there. But I could not give you the number. As far as our camp was concerned, which was at first a work camp, there worked up to 4,000 people.
Q Do you know how many there were in the South Camp, roughly?
A No, I do not.
Q Now, what were the living conditions in the North Camp?
A The conditions were terrible.
Q Did they have good hospital facilities?
A We had no hospital equipment at all. Most of the ill people, the so-called Group 4 - those who were not capable of working - they were accomodated in the stables.
There were no beds in those stables. It was a concrete floor. The sick people lay on the bare floor, without straw, without covers and blankets; no drugs; and these ill people were given 50 per cent of the food which we were given. They were so ill that they couldn't eat very well. They lay there, with open wounds and they were not dressed, and they died there by the thousands. On one occasion, for two or three weeks, these people accomodated in the stables were examined for transport and some were transported away. And Dr. Gremius said they were going to Bergen-Belsen to recover.