Court No. II - Case No. 4 Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al.
, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany on 11 April, 1947, 0930 - 1630, Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the Court please take your seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2.
Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Case No. 4, the United States of America against Oswald Pohl and others is before the Tribunal. The Marshal will determine whether all the defendants named in the indictment are present in court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honors, all the defendants are present.
MR.McHANEY: If the Tribunal please, the Prosecution request the witness Victor Abend be called to the witness stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will bring the witness requested.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Witness, will you please raise your hand and repeat after me. I swear by God Almighty and Omniscient that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
THE WITNESS: I swear.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Your name is Victor Abend?
A. Yes.
Court No. II - Case No. 4
Q. And when and where were you born?
A. I was born on 1 April 1901 at Jaroslaw.
Q. Are you a citizen of Poland?
A. Yes.
Q. What is your profession?
A. I am a physician.
Q. What is your present address?
A. Aussere Prinzregentenstr. 9.
Q. Where did you study medicine?
A. First I attended the medical school at Vienna, and later on at Krakow, where I also passed my medical service examination.
Q. When did you begin your practice of medicine?
A. In the year of 1931.
Q. Where was this?
A. In Krakow.
Q. How long did you continue your practice in Krakow?
A. Until the outbreak of the war in 1939.
Q. And what happened then?
A. After a regular appeal that the Polish citizens were to go towards the East, I went to the East.
Q. Did there come a time when you were sent to a concentration camp?
A. Yes.
Q. When were you arrested?
A. In the year of 1943.
Q. Where?
A. At Tarnow.
Q. And what happened after you were arrested?
A. I was sent to Schoebnik in a concentration camp.
Q. How long did you stay there?
Court No. II - Case No. 4
A. For forty-five weeks.
Q. Then what happened to you?
A. Then I was transferred to Auschwitz.
Q. With how large a transport did you go to Auschwitz?
A. There were quite a few people.
Q. Well, was there a trainload?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you transported in freight cars?
A. Yes.
Q. How many prisoners were put into each car?
A. Quite a number.
Q. Well, were there as many as seventy-five?
A. It depends on the size of the freight car.
Q. Was it very crowded?
A. It was very full. They were fully occupied.
Q. How long were you on the road?
A. Approximately four days and nights.
Q. Did you have anything to eat or drink during this journey?
A. No.
Q. Did the prisoners suffer much during this transporting?
A. Very much.
Q. And what happened after your arrival at Auschwitz?
A. In Auschwitz each car was unloaded separately.
Q. Then what did they do. Go ahead and describe what happened to you after you arrived in Auschwitz, what happened to you and the rest of the transport?
A. When our freight car was opened up at Auschwitz, several people within the car almost fell out unconscious, and part of them were driven out with whips and beatings. We then had to place ourselves before the camp physician. This camp physician asked us for our age and our profession. He then pointed with a finger, so and so (indicating). I went this way, to the left. After our car had been unloaded other cars were also unloaded, and they were given the same procedure.
When all the freight cars had been unloaded we were sent with SS guards who were heavily armed, and we were surrounded by them. We wore without shoes, without pants, without gloves. Then we were sent into the camp under severe beatings. We were also hit with rifles and bayonets.
In the camp itself we were sent into a stable, where we spent all night and where we had to stand up all night long.
The following day we went to be tattooed, again under severe beatings.
Q. Were you tattooed?
A. Yes, I have the number 160879.
Q. Do you know whether they tattooed inmates in other concentration camps or not?
A. Only at Auschwitz.
Q. In other words, any inmate who has a tattoo on his arm was an innate of Auschwitz; is that right?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Will you continue.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Will you let me get the number he gave?
Q. What is the number of your tattoo?
A. 160879.
Q. What happened to you after you were tattooed? What work were you finally assigned to, witness?
A. After we had been tattooed, we went to the sauna. There our hair was cut off, and we took a bath.
Then, after the whole transport was assembled outside -- and it was very cold at that time -- we went to the camp Birkenau, and we came into Camp A. There were ten camps.
Q. You were sent to the camp Birkenau, Auschwitz?
A. We were sent to the camp Auschwitz-Birkenau.
Q. And what work did you do there?
A. Upon our arrival, we first had to stand a formation on the parade ground. There we were counted, and then we had to do some drilling exercises. Only after several hours did we enter the block.
Q. Before we forget about it, witness, what happened to the group that was sent to the right, after the transport arrived?
A. After a certain number had accumulated, these people were loaded on trucks without any guards and, accompanied only by a single SS man, who was seated in the front of the truck, they were led out.
Q. And do you know what happened to them?
A. Yes.
Q. What.
A. In the camp we were told that all the persons who had stood on the right side and all the persons who had been loaded on trucks were sent directly to the crematorium.
Q. Do you mean they were gassed?
A. First they were gassed, and then they were sent into the crematorium.
Q. No, Doctor, did you work as an inmate-physician in Birkenau?
A. No.
Q. What did you do?
A. At first I had to do physical labor.
Q. All right. Then what did you do?
A. Then I became a nurse in a block.
Q. What block was this?
A. In Block 4.
Q. And who were the SS doctors there who were over you? Do you know any of their names?
A. At the time when I was in, Dr. Hellmersen was there, and later on Dr. Stiller.
Q. Who was the doctor who selected the inmates to go to the right or to the loft after your transport arrived? Do you know his name?
A. That was Fischer.
Q. And how long did you work in Block 4 as a male nurse?
A. For approximately eight to ten days.
Q. And then what did you do?
A. Then I was transferred to Camp F, the so-called hospital part of the camp.
Q. And did you work as a male nurse there?
A. There I again worked at the hospital as a nurse.
Q. What block was that called, do you remember?
A. That was the infectious block.
Q. Did they have typhus patients there?
A. Yes.
Q. And, now, how long did you work there?
A. I worked there until the time I was transported from Auschwitz. That was until October 1944.
Q. And you arrived in the camp in October 1943; is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct. That was at the end of October.
Q. So you were in Auschwitz approximately a year; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, from your place of work in Auschwitz, were you in a position to see any of the crematoria?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell the Tribunal whether or not large numbers of persons were being gassed and cremated in Auschwitz?
A. A very large number.
Q. Do you remember in the year 1944 whether or not there was a large number of transports of Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz?
A. Yes. That was in April, the end of April and perhaps in early May in 1944. That is when large transports of Hungarian Jews arrived.
Q. And what happened to those Hungarian Jews?
A. They also were selected in the selection procedure, and a certain number of people were again gassed and cremated.
Q. Were there so many people being gassed at this time that the normal facilities were not adequate?
A. Do you mean the facilities of the crematorium?
Q. Both the crematorium and the gas chamber.
A. Yes.
Q. Well, will you tell us how they gassed those who were unable to go into the normal gas chambers? How did they take care of that?
A They were cremated at Pscezinki.
Q Did they have a large barn there into which they crowded the people and then dropped the gas in through the chimney?
A No, it was a small barn, and it was usually known under the name of the white house.
Q And will you describe that to us, what happened there?
A The people were crowded into this barn, and after the whole barn was already filled up with people the door was closed, and gas was thrown in through certain flaps.
Q And were the people always killed by the gas?
A Yes, in part, but part of them remained alive.
Q What did they do with those?
A Those who were still alive were thrown into the fire.
Q And was this a way of cremating the bodies, that they dug big ditches close to this white house in which they built a fire and cremated the bodies?
A Holes were made there and wood was placed into these holes. Gas was poured on the wood and then the whole thing was inflamed.
Q Now, Witness, do you know whether or not they took the clothes and valuables, trunks, similar items, from the inmates at Auschwitz whey they arrived?
A Yes, all valuables were taken away from us and all our clothing. Our laundry was taken away from us also.
Q Were there large quantities of clothing and shoes, valuables at Auschwitz which were taken away?
A There was a very large number.
Q Do you know what happened to that clothing and those valuables?
A They were loaded and sent away.
Q Loaded into what, freight cars?
A Into freight cars.
Q And was there a name around the camp by which these valuables were known, did the inmates have some expression they used with respect to the shipment of those clothing items?
A Yes.
Q What was that?.
A Well, it was usually said, "Here are the presents from Poland, for Pohl."
Q Will you please repeat the answer?
A It was usually said that these were presents for Pohl.
Q And was that a common way of expressing these shipments of clothing and other valuables?
A Yes, that is what was said.
Q Do you know who Pohl was?
A No, I did not know it at that time.
Q Now, you say you left Auschwitz in November, 1944, or October, 1944?
A In October, 1944.
Q And where did you go then?
A Then I was sent to Ohrdruf by Oranienburg and Sachsenhausen.
Q And where was Ohrdruf?
A It was called Buchenwald S-3 Ohrdruf.
Q In other words, it was an outside camp of the concentration camp Buchenwald, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Now, what was being done at S-3 Ohrdruf?
A On the troop parade grounds we had to build bombs.
Q What other work were they doing, what construction work?
A We had to build railroad tracks, and we had to flatten them, we had to flatten the ground.
Q Were they digging any tunnels in Ohrdruf, underground construction work?
A Yes.
Q And how many prisoners, inmates, were there in Ohrdruf S-3?
A Quite a few.
Q Well, were there as many as five or six thousand?
A Perhaps even more.
Q And what work did you do in Ohrdruf?
AAt Ohrdruf I was first sent to the northern part of the camp.
Q Pardon me a minute, were there two camps, one known as the north camp and another known as the south camp?
A Yes.
Q And you went to the north camp first, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q How long did you stay there?
A Perhaps three weeks.
Q And what work did you do?
A In the first place I went to work with the horse-drawn vehicle detachment.
Q And what did they do?
A We had to go from the northern camp to the southern camp, and there at one certain place we had to wait, then three vehicles drawn by horses arrived. They were accompanied by SS men, and then we came into motion, and we drove to Krawinkel and from there we drove into a wood where under the snow we had to collect the branches, and then we loaded them on the vehicles, and then we had to take them back to a certain place where we unloaded them.
Q Now, what did you do when you moved to the south camp in November, 1944, what work did you do in the south camp?
A In the southern camp I worked as a nurse.
Q Now, can you tell us what clothing was issued to the inmates working at Ohrdruf S-3?
A Yes, we were issued the following, wooden shoes, trousers, and also jackets.
Q Did you have any head wear, anything for the head?
A No.
Q Were you issued any socks?
A No.
Q What about underwear?
A We did not have any at all.
Q Was it very cold at Ohrdruf during the winter?
A It was very cold.
Q What was the daily food ration, do you remember?
A In the morning we were given half a liter of black water, so-called coffee, then in the evening we were given one liter of soup which contained several potatoes, and furthermore we got the course and were given one-fourth of a loaf of bread and nothing else. And twice a week we were given a piece of margerine and a piece of sausage, and whenever we could not get any sausage we were given a little bit of marmalade.
Q Now, what work did you do in the hospital there?
AAs a nurse.
Q And what diseases did the inmates suffer from who came to the hospital?
A Typhus, erysipelas, phlegmon and diarrhea.
Q Who was the SS doctor at this hospital?
A Dr. Gremius.
Q Can you tell us anything about the death rate in Ohrdruf?
A There were lots of people who died.
Q Well, can you say that on some days there were as many as fifty a day who died?
A Perhaps on several days.
Q And how long were you in Ohrdruf?
A I remained there until the day we were evacuated. That was the 2nd of April, 1945.
Q Well, you were there for approximately six months, then, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Did Dr. Gremius have a method of classifying prisoners according to their ability to work?
A Dr. Gremius carried out the selection in the camp. People were given physical examination in muster. I attended such a muster that Dr. Gremius was in charge of. Dr. Gremius divided the inmates into four groups.
The first group consisted of people who were 100 per cent healthy, who were sent to the outside camp for hard labor.
The second group contained people who were healthy up to 90 per cent. They were destined to go to the inside camp and also for hard labor in the camp.
The third group consisted of people of which 50 per cent were healthy, who were used for the easy work within the camp.
The fourth group consisted of all people who were incapable of working.
Q And what was done with persons in this fourth group? Do you know?
A They were separated and they were put into horse-stable barracks.
Q And what happened to them?
A Part of them starved to death. However, I have to add one more thing: that the fourth group, the people incapable of working, were given 50 per cent of our food, and those who did not die were shipped away in transports?
Q Do you know where they were sent to, what camp?
A It was said that this Dr. Gremius had stated they were going to a convalescent home.
Q They sent them to Bergen-Belsen, which they called a recreation camp, is that right?
A That is what was said, that they were sent to a recreation home at Bergen-Belsen.
Q Did you also say a minute ago that the persons in Group 4 were given 50 per cent less food than the other inmates?
A Yes.
Q Now, Doctor, do you know who was in control of the construction work going on at Ohrdruf?
A Doctor-Engineer Kammler.
Q How were the medical facilities in Ohrdruf? Were they good or bad?
A They were very bad.
Q Did they have sufficient drugs?
A No.
Q Were any inmates injured working at Ohrdruf?
AA large number.
Q And when a man was injured when he was working in one of the tunnels did they immediately bring him out of the tunnel to the hospital?
A No.
Q What did they do?
A He had to wait until the whole detachment returned to the camp, because they went back under guard.
Q In other words, they kept the injured person in there until the whole group came back in the evening, is that right?
A Yes.
Q How long did the inmates work?
A We worked there in three shifts.
Q Would that be eight hours for each shift?
A Yes.
Q Did many of the inmates die from malnutrition? Did you notice whether many of them were emanciated?
A Very many.
Q And was there a big turn-over in the number of inmates? Were there many coming in quite often, as well as leaving?
A Yes, transports arrived at Ohrdruf.
Q Can you mention some of the concentration camps from which prisoners were sent in to Ohrdruf?
A Yes. Flossenburg, Auschwitz, Dachau.
Q Were many of the inmates who were shipped into Ohrdruf sick upon their arrival and unable to work?
A Yes, several of their numbers.
Q Now, where did these prisoners live? Where did they sleep?
A In the barracks.
Q And what were their living conditions in the barracks? What did they sleep on?
A Slept in wooden bunks. There were three bunks in each room. They were above each other.
Q How many men did they have in each bunk? Did they have a bunk for each man or did several inmates have to sleep on one bunk?
A Sometimes two persons had to sleep in one bunk.
Q Did any of the prisoners have to sleep and live in the tunnels or did they have enough room in the barracks?
A They were in the barracks.
Q Now, is the name Pook familiar to you?
A Yes.
Q Where did you hear that name?
A I heard the name at Ohrdruf.
Q In what connection? Will you explain how you happen to know the name Pook?
A Well, in connection with prisoners of another place, in connection with the prohibition of the use of anesthetics in the extraction of inmates' teeth.
Q Was Pook a dentist?
A Yes.
Q And did he actually visit Ohrdruf?
A I have seen him on one occasion, accompanied by Dr. Gremius.
Q And you say that he gave the order that tooth extractions would have to be made without anesthesia, is that correct?
A That is what we were told.
Q Do you think you would recognize Dr. Pook if you saw him again?
A I believe so, yes.
Q Do you see him in the dock over here?
A (The witness pointed in the direction of the prisoners' dock.) Well, the one over there.
Q Will you stand up, please?
A (The witness stood up.)
Q Now, will you indicate the seat and row in which you see the man, Pook?
AAt the wall, the first soldier, the second, the one in the light suit -- that is Pook.
Q Well, I am still not clear on the identification -
THE PRESIDENT: He said, the soldier, then another, then the man in the light suit, then Pook.
THE WITNESS: After the man in the light suit, that is Pook.
MR. MC HANEY: I will ask that the record show that he properly identified the Defendant Pook.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so indicate.
Q Doctor, will you describe whether Ohrdruf was evacuated and what happened then?
A Ohrdruf was evacuated on the second of April. All of us were told to report to the parade ground together with all the patients. All the patients who were able to walk came out; other patients were carried out by the inmates. Then all the blocks were searched, and whenever a person was discovered who had hidden himself in the block or under the bed or under a bed cover or under the straw -then he was immediately shot down. Then trucks arrived and the patients who were unable to go up to the trucks by themselves were thrown on the trucks. Then the camp was again searched. Whenever a person was found, this person was immediately shot. The patients were then driven away in the trucks. The physicians and the nursing personnel remained behind.
Q And did you manage to escape, Doctor?
A Only on the first of April. The medical and the nursing personnel went on foot, and we were taken to the city of Imm, and from Imm to Nadigenschein -- I think it was called -- and already that is part of the escape. We were placed in a barn to rest. During the night I escaped, together with two other colleagues. Until the 14th of April I remained in hiding in the mountains. Then we crossed the German-American line and we again arrived at the city of Imm, and we were immediately protected by the American military authorities.
Q Are you now practicing medicine, Doctor?
A Yes.
MR. McHANEY: I have no further questions at this time.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross-examination? Before you begin, may I ask a question.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q When you were arrested, Doctor, were you told the reason why you were being arrested?
A No.
Q Did you ever have a trial or a hearing before you were sent to the camp?
A Never.
Q In the cars -- the freight cars in which you traveled -could the men lie down?
A It was almost impossible.
Q Why?
A Because so many people were crowded in these freight cars.
Q Was there any water to drink?
A No.
Q Were there any toilets?
A No.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Doctor, in the two camps that you were in, were there just men inmates -- or men, women and children?
A In Auschwitz, in that particular camp, where I was in the camp, and also in the Camp-F, there were only men.
Q Were you a Polish citizen when you were arrested and taken to the concentration camp?
A Yes.
Q Were you arrested by the Germans?
A Yes.
Q Where?
AAt Tarnow.
Q Were you living there and practicing medicine, or were you there as a result of being driven out of Poland?
A I lived there together with my wife and my two children, and I was working there as a physician.
Q And you never were told why you were sent to the concentration camp?
A No.
Q What affect did your treatment in these camps have on you personally? On your health?
A I am not in good physical condition.
Q Did you lose weight?
A I lost a large amount of weight. At the time of my release I only weighed thirty-six kilograms -- that is seventy-two pounds.
Q What was the nationality of the people in these camps, mostly. Were they Russians, Poles or Jews? What was the predominating nationality?
A They were mainly Jews.
Q Are you Jewish?
A Yes.
Q That is all.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q The city, the place where you were arrested, was that in Poland or in Germany?
A That was in Tarnow.
Q Well, that is in Poland?
A Yes, that is in Poland.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross-examination, Dr. Seidl?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, you have testified that you were born in Taroslaw.
A Yes.
Q When the war broke out in 1939 you were told to go to the East?
A Yes.
Q What was the reason?
A We were to report there to the military command?
Q And you did so?
A Yes.
Q And then you were arrested in 1943?
A Yes.
Q And apparently, for the reason, as I thought from your answers, that you were of Jewish descent.
A Yes.
Q Now you are living in Munich?
A Yes.
Q According to your testimony I have to assume that you were mistreated by the Germans during the war, and I now ask you: What are the reasons that prevent you now from going back to your Polish fatherland? After all, you are a Polish citizen, aren't you?
A Because I do not want to.
Q Well, I am asking you, why don't you want to go back?
A Because I have lost everything I had in Poland. I have lost my wife in Auschwitz, my child in Auschwitz; I have lost my apartment and furniture and all the property which I owned.
DR. SEIDL: No further questions, Your Honors.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other cross-examination.
DR. RATZ (Counsel for the defendant Pook):
BY DR. RATZ:
Q You said that you knew the name of Pook in connection with the prohibition to use other dentists' treatments, and that extractions had to be done without anesthesia. I want to ask you now: How do you know that such an order existed at all?
A I heard that from the camp, in the hospital, and from the physicians with whom I worked.
Q But how do you know that this order originated from Pook?
A That is what was said.
Q Who said that?
A The prisoners.
Q Do you know who was the responsible camp dentist at Buchenwald?
A No.
Q You never heard the name of Dr. Abraham?
A No.
Q Why do you know Dr. Pook?