A Yes. As I looked again, they were all there, between cars and the crematorium, and during that time about a hundred inmates from the special task groups came from the direction of the Crematoriums 1 and 2, and they, together with the others who were already there, opened the gas chamber and dragged the bodies out of there, and brought them to the cemetery. They had a sort of small stretcher and they had also small carts with one wheel and two handles.
Q About how many truckloads of prisoners did you see taken from the gas chambers?
AAltogether there were approximately nine to ten trucks in the first part. Later approximately 13. I cannot state that exactly. And then a few additional ones arrived. I assume that altogether there were about 20 trucks. And then there was a second portion in the afternoon.
Q Did Pohl and his party watch the same proceedings in the afternoon?
A Yes.
Q About how many people were in Pohl's party?
A Two or three.
Q Were they all SS men?
A Most of them. There were two civilians.
Q Will you tell the Court again how close you were to the crematorium and the gas chambers, where it was that you were working?
AApproximately from 60 to 80 meters.
Q And then did Pohl and his party after leaving the gas chamber walk in your direction?
A He was very close to us on two occasions, and he asked our chief about our work.
And at that time he was about 2 to 3 meters away from me. The others also. Amongst them there were two officers from Auschwitz, Hoffman, Grabner, Hoess, people from the political department. Emmerich. Boger. Lachmann.
Q How do you know the names of all these people you have enumerated?
A They had a very bad reputation throughout the camp. People like Grabner, or Hoffman, Hoess, Boger, or Lachmann - everyone was afraid of them.
Q What was the name of the SS sergeant that was in charge of your work detail?
A SS Unterscharfuehrer Otto Jenne.
Q Did Jenne tell you the names of any of the people in Pohl's party?
A Yes.
Q Did he point out any of the members of Pohl's party and identify them to you?
A Yes.
Q Who did he tell you was in the party?
A Hans Bobermin.
Q Do you think that you could identify Oswald Pohl and Hans Bobermin today if you were to see them?
A Yes. But only Pohl. Bobermin I only saw on that occasion. I do not believe that I would be able to recognize him again. I only remember that he was built rather strongly and had rather broad shoulders. Although I saw him very closely, I didn't see his face, because he had a highcap on his head and therefore I must say that I forget the face. But Pohl I saw several times.
Q What was there about Bobernim that makes you remember his being there?
A When we were working under Unterscharfuehrer Swoboda we had a talk about the high visitors due to arrive, and he and Jenne mentioned several names in the course of their discussion.
Then, after the messenger left his bicycle, he told us, "This guy is one of the greater men in Berlin. He is Hans Bobermin; He is chief of an Amt-- of a Main Amt--of a Main Amt, of SS. I know him very well. I know what a big career he had achieved, and I know that if he did not like you, then he could have sent all of you a long time ago into the crematory."
Q. Is there anything about the name Bobermin that makes it stick in your mind?
A. Yes. My mother-language is Polish, and of course when I speak German now, then I have to translate it from German to Polish; and the sound of the name Bobermin has a very funny meaning in the Polish language. It is very funny. The Polish prisoners in the camp had a number of nicknames in the camp, and among them we also said for a man--for an inmates who was undernourished-- "He looks like a Bober. He has a look like a Bober." "Look" in Polish means "mina"; and therefore "Bobermina" means "he looks like a famished inmate" in Polish.
Q. Herr Bielsky, will you stand up please? Will you see if you can identify Oswald Pohl as being one of the members in the dock? If you like, you may walk over closer.
A. (Witness leaves stand and walks toward the dock) This is Oswald Pohl.
MR. ROBBINS: May the record show that the witness identified the defendant Pohl?
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Do you think that you can identify the defendant Bobermin?
A. I do not think so; I only saw him on that one occasion, and that was four years ago.
Q. Witness, are you missing some teeth from your mouth?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell the Court how you lost them?
A. In the course of my interrogations by the Gestapo I was beaten for three months, and I was tortured. At the time the Gestapo broke my nose; they knocked out my teeth--and that was at Auschwitz. Furthermore, three ribs were broken when I was beaten. I was given five hundred strokes with a whip, and then I spent two months at the prison at Radom where I was beaten every day.
Q. Do you have any other scars on your body from this treatment?
A. Yes; I also have a wound at my heel. That comes from the year 1942 when I had typhus. For two weeks I had to walk, and then in the evening I did not want to go to the hospital because there one was easily disposed of through injections, and we preferred to die on the free fields than in the gas chamber. At that time I stood in the morning formation. One of the SS men saw that I was standing there, and I had a very high fever at the time. I was not able to stand straight. He gave me several kicks, and as a result of this I had a very dangerous wound. Then I had an inflammation of my veins and blood poison; and that is why my left leg is 16 centimeters bigger than my right, and I can not stand on my leg more than one or two hours. Then I have either to lie down or to sit down.
Q. Herr Bielsky, do you have medical proof with you to show that you have lost from sixty to seventy percent of the use of that leg from mistreatment.
A. Yes.
MR. ROBBINS: Prosecution has no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you still want to defer cross-examination until Monday? You do?
DR. FROESCHMANN: (Counsel for the defendant Mummenthey): Yes, Mr. President, we still want to defer the cross-examination til Monday.
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the defendant Bobermin): I also request the Tribunal to defer the cross-examination until Monday.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the witness may be withdrawn from the witness stand, and will return Monday for cross examination.
Just a moment.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. What was it the Gestapo asked you about--or questioned you about--when they were beating you?
A. They wanted me to sign the indictment, and they wanted me to admit everything with which I had been charged. And then my mother and my sister, who was eleven years old, were also tortured in a very cruel manner. They spent four months in prison and afterward they were shot because the Gestapo wanted to force me to admit everything with which I was charged.
Q. What were you charged with?
A. I was charged with having sympathies and having collaborated with an underground organization, and of working together with the clandestine press, and of assisting the partisans in the Lysa Gora mountains; because I had a hostile attitude toward the Third Reich.
Q. Are you a Jew?
A. I am half-Jewish.
Q. Where were you arrested?
A. I was arrested at Konsky, two hundred kilometers from Varsaw. That is in the district of Kielce.
Q. What were you doing there?
A. At the time I was working in the clandestine press at Varsaw. My mother was at my father's estate--that was at Hakolski. My mother was arrested three days before my arrest, together with my sister, because they had been denounced by the man who was administering my estate.
Q. What weapons did the Gestapo use in the camp to knock out your teeth?
A. This was done with the butts of pistols, and then I was put in a place--I was put into a torturing engins; I was put with my head down. I was hanged on a piece of wood and both arms were bound together, and then three Gestapo men started beating me from all sides with sticks, with pistol butts, and with a kind of whip they used to use. There was a thick wire inside and on the outside there was leather.
Q. I noticed you looking at the defendants; You shut one eye. Are either one of your eyes injured from any treatment you had there?
A. My eyes were damaged when I was maltreated; yes.
Q. To what extent were your eyes injured?
A. The sight-nerves were paralyzed.
Q. The right eye?
A. Yes, my right eye.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. You said when you were arrested you were working for the clandestine press.
A. Yes; for the clandestine press, and for the organization ZVZ; that is a unit of armed resistance.
Q. You said when you were arrested you were working for the Clandestine Press?
A. Yes, for the Clandestine Press and for the organization, that is, a unit of armed resistance.
Q. You were in the Polish Underground?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were working for a newspaper?
A. Yes, I worked for a paper. I myself distributed papers and I reduced these papers and I wrote them for the Underground.
THE PRESIDENT: Now the witness may retire, to return on Monday morning at 9:30 o'clock.
MR. McHANEY: I assume the Tribunal wishes to take its customary afternoon recess at this time?
THE PRESIDENT: We want to take an inventory first.
MR. McHANEY: The Prosecution is quite ready to proceed, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you have some documents?
MR. McHANEY: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Then we will take a recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
MR. MC HANEY: If the Tribunal please, I will now offer documents in Document Book No. 9. We are skipping for the time being Document Book No. 8, since it was not delivered to the defense counsel until this morning, whereas Document Book No. 9 has been in their possession for several days. The first two documents in this book concern themselves with the typhus experiments carried out in the Buchenwald concentration camp. The first document is that on Page 1, Document NO-571, which will be Prosecution's Exhibit 218. This is a work report of the typhus and Virus Institute situated at Buchenwald. The Typhus and Virus Research Institute was a department of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS. The Chief of the Hygiene Institute of the Waffen-SS was the Defendant Mrugowski in the medical case. The local chief of the department for Typhus and Virus Research at Buchenwald was Dr. Ding. He was also known by the name schueder. He was a rather ambitious man and somehow managed to have his name changed to Von Schueder in the year 1943 or so and we will see in the next document, which is a diary written by him on the typhus experiments at Buchenwald, in the first series of pages the name Ding appears, whereas in the last part of the diary he uses the name Schueder. In any event, this is a work report covered by Ding covering the typhus work at Buchenwald. It is dated January 1944.
There were in Buchenwald two separate blocks which were working on the typhus problems. In Block 46 the Typhus experiments themselves were actually performed. That was known as the clinical section. On the other hand Block 50 was the section in which spotted fever and typhus fever and typhus vaccine was manufactured, and they called that the productive vaccine department. There are only two or three entries in Document NO-571, which I wish to call to the Tribunal's attention. On page 4 of the Document Book under Roman Numeral III, it is entitled "Inspections of the 'Department for Spotted Fever and Virus Research'" and under 24 August there is the entry "Inspection of the department by the Director of the Central Building Section of the Waffen-SS and Police, SS-Obersturmfuehrer Huehnefeld, and discussion of necessary improvements."
It is the contention of the Prosecution that this Central Building Section of the Waffen-SS was subordinate to the Amtsgruppe "C" of WVHA, or their agents, who were in the Buchenwald concentration camp to effect certain improvements in the two blocks operated by the Institute for Typhus and Virus Research located there.
On the next page, page 5, under roman numeral III we find an entry on 29 September, the second entry from the top of the page, which reads: "Inspection by the Chief of Office D III in the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office (WVHA), SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Lolling and Professor Dr. Schenk." Over these men were members of the WVHA. Lolling was Chief of Office D III, which made him the chief medical officer in Amtsgruppe D, which controlled medical matters in concentration camps. Immediately subordinate to him was the defendant Pook, who was the chief dentist. And Pook was directly subordinate within Amtsgruppe D to Lolling, and we are also familiar with Professor Dr. Schenk. The Tribunal will recall that yesterday I referred back to the table of organization of Amtsgruppe B, under the defendant Georg Loerner, and we saw the name of Dr. Schenk entered in that table of the organiza tion.
His name will also come up again in connection with certain food experiments carried out in the concentration camp at Mauthausen. Here we find the subordinate to the defendant Lolling visited the typhus experimental station in Bechenwald.
I also call the Tribunal's attention to two entries on page 6, These are the entries under Roman numeral headed: "Official Trips by the Head of the 'Department for Spotted Fever and Virus Research'" by Dr. Ding, and under the entries of 13 October and 21 October we find: "Inspection at 'Dora' and 'Laura' with the commandant of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp," and then again under 21 October, "Inspection of the branch commands Leipzig, Wernigerode, Schoenebeck and 'Dora' with the camp commandant." and the Tribunal will recall that the witness Karl Kahr has testified concerning conditions in Dora, which was in the beginning an outside camp at Buchenwald. You see Dora indicated on the map on the wall chart under "Nordhausen (Dora)" I think that it was in the middle or latter part of 1944 that Dora reached such a size that it was officially known as Nordhausen Concentration Camp, and as such was no longer considered to be an outside camp of Buchenwald, and was then one of the camps centrally administered by the WVHA in Berlin. These entries indicate that Ding made inspections at these outside camps undoubtedly for the purpose of taking necessary identical measures since Ding was the hygienist, and the witness Eugen Kogen will undoubtedly have something to say about these matters, and about his relationship with Dr. Ding.
I pass now to Document NO-265, which will be Prosecution's Exhibit No 219. This is a diary kept by Dr. Ding Schuler on the typhus experiments carried out in the Buchenwald Concentration Camp. This was one of the larger series of experiments, and this diary is a very complete summary report on substantially all of the experiments carried out in Buchenwald concentration camp upon concentration camp inmates. I do not wish to read this report, but I would state to the Tribunal that the analysis of the figures contained in this book proves that no less than 729 inmates were experimented on for typhus, and of those no less than 154 died.
The purposes of these tests in Buchenwald were to determine the effectiveness of the various types of typhus vaccine for the invasion of Russia. The German Army experienced typhus epidemics, and for one reason or another they were not well prepared to combat those epidemics. Normally there are two methods of attacking the epidemic, to try to keep down the typhus epidemic, one by using disinfectant to control the vermin, that is, the lice which carried the disease in one clothes, various hygienic methods, and another is through the use of protective vaccine. The German had a very effective vaccine known as the "Weigl" vaccine, and as I recall there was one at the outbreak of the war, one place in Germany where the "Weigl" vaccine was manufactured, and it is an exceedingly complicated process; the vaccine is a virus from the intestine of lice, which the court will appreciate and even the court know more about this than I do about a rather complicated and delicate matter; secondly, the efforts were made to develop new types of vaccine, one was vaccine developed in the yolk of an egg, and it was known as the "Cox-Haagen, Gildemeister" vaccine. Cox was an American, and had contributed to the development of the vaccine to a considerable extent. This was a new vaccine, and they were experimenting for their effective efficiency.
To carry them out the procedure was to select a certain number of inmates, to sot aside a given percentage of them--normally 25 per cent--as control persons, to vaccinate the remaining 75 per cent with two or three of the vaccines being tested. The Weigl vaccine, which they knew quite a lot about, was normally used in the group of 75 per cent, and they would also use one of the egg yolk vaccines. In about two weeks they would normally infect the whole of the experimental group with virulent typhus. In other words, they would artificially bring on the disease of typhus.
They did this in various ways. One that was most frequently used was the injection of infected blood. In any event, a substantial number of deaths were caused by these experiments.
In addition to the typhus experiments, experiments with yellow fever vaccines were also conducted and with incendiary bombs. Five persons were tested in the incendiary bomb experiment. They were curious to establish whether a certain drug would be effective in treating a wound caused by phosphorous matter in an incendiary bomb. Apparently they felt that testing it on persons who had been injured during the course of an air raid was too troublesome. In any event, they procured an English incendiary from the vicinity of Leipzig and and proceeded to burn five experimental subjects in Buchenwald and treat them with the drug and observe the development of it.
There were also two poison experiments carried out; one on 30 December 1943 in which four persons were experimented on, and again on 26 October 1944 when six persons were experimented upon.
All of these experiments are mentioned during the course of this diary. As to the poison experiments, they do not reflect that deaths occurred in the diary. However, that proof will be given by Eugene Kogen when he appears here.
I would ask the Tribunal to turn to page 10 of the document book, the entry in the diary dated 9 January 1943. It reads as follows:
"By order of the surgeon general of the Waffen SS, SS-Gruppenfuehrer and Major General of the Waffen SS, Dr. Genzken, the hitherto existing spotted fever research station at the concentration camp Buchenwald becomes the 'Department for spotted fever and virus research'. The head of the department will be SS-Sturnbannfuehrer Dr. Ding. During his absence, the station medical officer of the Waffen SS, Weimar, SS-Haupsturmfuehrer Hoven will supervise the production of vaccines. The chief of the economic and administrative headquarters, SS-Obergruppenfuehrer and Lt. General of the Waffen SS Pohl orders the extension of block of stone buildings."
This indicates that the WVHA, in addition to having an inspection by Lolling and Schenk, also assisted materially by extending the experimental blocks which were used in the course of these experiments. That, of course, would call into action Amtsgruppe C, which handled all building matters within the concentration camp, and as I mentioned during the work report for 1943, the previous document, we know that in August of that year a visit was made to Buchenwald by a member of the building inspectorate.
On page 13 of the document book, under the entry for 23 March 1943, it says:
"Conferences between SS Sturmbannfuehrer Barnewald, SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Ding and SS-Hauptacharfuehrer Schlesinger from Department W5, W and V.H.A., about the brooding of rabbits, guina pigs and mice as experimental animals for the experimental department."
It appears also that Office W-5 of Amtsgruppe W of the WVHA also was in Buchenwald conferring with Dr. Ding concerning experimental animals.
I turn how to page 23, which is document NO 370, which will be Prosecution Exhibit 219.
THE PRESIDENT: 220
MR. MC HANEY: Yes, your are correct, Your Honor, 220. We turn here to a document and a further series of documents dealing with typhus experiments carried out in the Natzweiler concentration camp by Dr. Eugene Haagen, together with Dr. Hirt, who was a professor of the University of Strasbourg, which, as I stated yesterday, was located rather close to the Natzweiler concentration camp. It appears also on the map. It is very close to Strasbourg and just inside the French border.
The experiments by Haagen were similar in character to those by Dr. Ding, although they were not so extensive. I think that during the course of these experiments Haagen used approximately 400 inmates and at least 50 of these were killed, as we shall see later.
This document, NO 370, Prosecution Exhibit 220, is an affidavit by Rudolf Brandt which states in a summary fashion what the course of these experiments was, together with some of the persons implicated in them.
I pass now to document NO 2466 on page 26. This will be Prosecution Exhibit 221. This is an extract of the testimony of the witness Edith Schmidt in U. S. against Karl Brandt. This is the Case Number I before Military Tribunal Number 1. I think it might be expedient if I read at least a protion of this extract, particularly since, during the course of the examination of the witness Schmidt a document was introduced.
The witness Schmidt had previously testified about certain experiments at Schirmock. She was then asked:
" Question: Do you know of any other experiments on concentration camp inmates by Dr. Haagen?"
The answer was: "Yes."
"Question: Will you please tell us about those?
Answer: At the end of 1943 I saw a letter which Professor Haagen wrote to an SS Office through Professor Dr. Hirt, a professor of the Anatomical Institute at Strasbourg. In this letter inmates of the concentration camp, I think Dachau, were requested in order to carry out typhus experiments. A second letter came to my knowledge. In this letter Professor Dr. Haagen wrote that the human material which had been sent him was not suitable for the experiments. A part of the concentration camp inmates of, I believe Dachau, who arrived at Schirmock were in a condition which would not have produced the same results from typhus vaccinations. Part of than had died on the way. Thereupon Professor Dr. Haagen demanded concentration camp prisoners in the health condition of a German soldier."
At this point Document NO 121 was handed to the witness, and she was asked to identify it as the letter which she had referred to. Upon identifying the letter, it was offered and admitted as Prosecution Exhibit 293. The letter appears in this extract. It is dated 15 November 1943. It is a letter from Haagen to Hirt:
"On 13 November 1943 an inspection was made of the prisoners that were furnished to me in order to determine their suitability for the tests which have been planned for the spotted fever vaccines. Of the 100 prisoners that have been selected in their former camp, 18 died during transport. Only 12 prisoners are in such a condition that they can be used for these experiments, provided they can be brought into a state of vigor. This should take about two to three months. The remaining prisoners are in such a condition that they can not be used at all for these purposes.
"I might point out that the experiments are for the purpose of testing a now vaccine. Such experiment only lead to fruitful results when they are carried out with normally nourished subjects whose physical powers are comparable with those of the soldiers. Therefore, experiments with the present group of prisoners can not yield usable results, particularly since a large part of then are apparently afflicted with maladies which made then unsuitable for these experiments. A long period of rest and of good nourishment would not alter this fact.
"I request, therefore, that you send no 100 prisoners of age between 20 and 40 years, who are healthy and who are so constituted physically that they furnish comparable material."
Signed, "Haagen."
The witness Schmidt went on to testify that still an additional 200 inmates were requested late in 1943 or early in 1944, that they were furnished, that she had an opportunity to road the notes prepared by Miss Grodel who was an assistant to Dr. Haagen, and from these notes she was able to determine that fifty experimental subjects died as a result of the typhus experiments. I might remark that Miss Schmidt was an employee of the Hygiene Institute of the University of Strassbourg.
I turn now to Document NO-123 on Page 30. This will be Prosecution Exhibit 222. This is a letter from Haagen to Hirt, dated 9 May 1944 and constitutes the letter requesting the 200 experimental subjects. He makes this request through Dr. Hirt, and the requested number of 200 is mentioned in the second paragraph.
The next document is NO-008 on Page 31 which will be Prosecution Exhibit 223. The letter to Hirt was passed on to the Defendant Sievers in the medical case. The reason for that was that Hirt was a member of the Institute for Military Scientific Research. Consequently the channel of command, or rather channel of request for prisoners went from Haagen to Hirt to Sievers and to Pohl as we see from this document. The letter from Haagen to Hirt was dated 9 May 1944. This letter, Prosecution Exhibit 223, is dated 19 May 1944. Sievers writes Pohl stating in the first paragraph that Pohl had complied with Sievers request on 30 September 1943 and has made available 100 suitable prisoners. Those, of course, were the hundred out of which eighteen died before they ever got to Natzweiler, and which none of whom were found to be satisfactory by Dr. Haagen. Consequently an additional 100 were requested and obtained, and now in this letter Sievers asks for an additional 200 as requested by Haagen to Hirt on 9 May.
Moreover, on Page 32, the second page of the letter, down at the bottom, Sievers asks Pohl about which offices of the SS should receive a credit line in the report to be written by Dr. Haagen to the Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe, among others, and he said, "I request your decision if one of the following is to be named as supporting agency of the SS." These supporting agencies for recommending his experiments, the first one listed is the Reichsffuehrer SS, second is the SS-Economic and Administrative Main Office under Pohl, and thirdly, the Institute for Military Scientific Research of the Waffen-SS.
The next document is NO-009 which will be Prosecution Exhibit 224. This is a letter from Rudolf Brandt to Sievers, who had received a copy of Sievers' letter to Pohl of 19 May 1944. In this letter dated 6 June 1944 Brandt passes on Himmler's opinion that all three offices should be mentioned as supporting the experiments of Haagen's. The last line says, "Moreover it might then also be said that the Reichsfuehrer SS has personally fostered the experiments."
On Page 35, Document NO-127 will be Prosecution Exhibit 225. It is a memorandum from Haagen to Hirt dated 27 June 1944. The subject is tests of dry vaccine for spotted fever or typhus. I should explain that in very many of these documents the Tribunal will find the word "spotted fever". That is an inaccurate translation of the German word "fleckfieber". It should be translated typhus, because we are not speaking of Rocky Mountain spotted fever or any disease of that character. In this letter Haagen states very clearly that the experiments were concerned with testing the vaccine, testing the effectiveness of the vaccine by artificially infecting the experimental subjects.
Several of the defendants in the medical case have taken the rather vigorous position that actually all that Haagen was doing was testing the compatibility of a human being to these typhus vaccines, in other words, that they simply injected the vaccine itself and then studied the reaction of the person to see whether there was a fever reaction to the vaccine itself, how long it was, and its severity. The Prosecution, on the other hand, has contended that the experiments were considerably more than that, that not only did they test the compatibility of the vaccine, but also the effectiveness of the vaccine as a protective agent, and to do that, to test its protective quality, they first vaccinated the person and then artificially brought on the disease, typhus, to see whether or not the person would be protected by the previously given vaccine, that is, to see whether he would get the disease at all, and if he got it whether it would be less severe than the typhus brought on in the control persons.
THE PRESIDENT: In other words, they first vaccinated and then inoculated.
MR. MC HANEY: That is correct, inoculated with infected typhus blood or typhus infection. This letter, we contend, shows quite clearly that they were artificially infecting these experimental subjects. The letter reads:
"With reference to and in amplification of my communication of 9 May 1944 --" which the Tribunal will recall we have previously introduced, the memorandum, Haagen to Hirt, requesting 200 persons. He continues: "I wish to advise that after the vaccination itself no prolonged reaction, as was observed in the preliminary experiments, is expected so that there should be little or no interruption of work."