I remember that Speer once said, then at least remove the word "Fuehrer" or "Hitler".
669a
Q. Is it correct that Milch very often used strong words?
A. That --- yes, indeed. Not only I can say that, but I am sure other people will donfirm that. Milch was very often somewhat excited, over-temperamental, and we always said to each other that Milch could never get rid of his old lieutenant attitude, Whoever know him always valued his statements accordingly. An in this particular small circle it was natural that such statements were interpreted to correspond with the temperment of Milch.
Q. When Milch spoke concerning shooting and hangings, during such statements was that taken seriously?
A. I don't believe that any one of us considered this seriously for the very simple reason that he did not have the right and he was not empowered to make such shootings and to issue such decree 3. Did Milch later on apologize when he made such statements, or what did he do when ho spoke to someone in such strong words?
A. I know of many cases when Milch, when he couldn't control himself and used strong words against one or the other of those present, that after the session, after the end of the conferences he walked up to the man and he told him not to take his words so tragically.
Q. Is it not true that such outbursts of Milch occurred, after his accident in Stalingrad, that is, when his car came under a locomotive?
A. His temperament outbursts- undoubtedly happened immediately after this accident, and they were considerable. During the last few days of the war we said to each other, "How is it possible that Milch can let himself go in such a way?" We all know, however, what the reasons were for his situation.
Q. That happening in Stalingrad was early in 1943, wasn't it?
A. Yes, it was during the fighting for Stalingrad.
Q. I shall now proceed to the Jaegerstab. Could you tell us w purpose the Jaegerstab served?
A. As far as I can remember, and as far as I know, the Jaegerstab was created and ordered to produce as many defense planes as possible.
Q. Did the fighter staff also have the purpose to remove the air armament from the cycle of Goering and transfer it to the Speer Ministry?
A. Yes, as far as I know, and I heard that that was going to happen, as far as Speer was concerned, at least.
Q. Is it known to you, furthermore, that Milch already at the time of the creation of the Jaegerstab, wanted to resign from his positions?
A. Statements made by Milch to be able to withdraw from his positions, I heard lots of times. I believe that such statements had already been made much earlier. Then in 1943 and 1944 these statements occurred over and over again, particularly due to his physical condition. He noticed it himself that he couldn't possibly cope with all the tasks which were put on his shoulders, due to his particular disease as a result of the accident.
Q. Is it known to you that Milch at the time did not want to take the job of Air Ordnance Master General?
A. As far as I can remember, yes. That was after the death of Udet, when this assignment was offered to him and he told both Goering and Hitler that he did not want to take it, and that it would be more correct to give this job to some one else. I believe that he mentioned one name of some one who could be used for this particular job.
Q. Is it correct that within the Jaegerstab, when they discussed the results, not Milch but Sauer reported on the results of the work of the Jaegerstab?
A. Of course, I cannot make enact statements concerning this matter, because Goerieg at that particular time always was in his 671a headquarters.
However it is known to me that at that time Sauer very often reported to Goering, and I can also remember very clearly that I was wondering at the time that Milch at that time never reported to Goering.
Q. I just want to see if I forgot a question, Your Honors. I think we are reaching the end now. Was Milch in a position to address himself to the OKW, OFM, and OKL in his position as a member of the Central Planning Board?
A. No, this is absolutely impossible. I would have liked to see that agency which would have taken orders from the Central Planning Board.
Q. I shall now proceed to the 21st session of the Central Planning Board. It is document book 3b of the Prosecution. This is the session of 30 October 1942, and the English index on the 7th page of the index in book 3b, it is the second item from the top, the 21st meeting. This concerns pages 1054, 1055, and 1056. Witness, in that session Sauckel spoke and said that he wanted to have direct supervision over the prisoners of war. Filch thereupon told him that the correct channel, or the correct way to do it, would be that all the Stalags would be transferred to him. The Wehrmacht makes these people prisoners and as soon as they are relinquished, the first delivery then goes to your organizations, and everything is O.K.
Court No. 2 (lrz) Sauckel said, "Yes, but we do not have sufficient personnel for guarding the prisoners," and Milch:
(The Wehrmacht should have to provide you with that.) That is 1056 of the original -- yes, on page 69 of the English Document Book, Your Honor. He just said, "Milch: The man who acts, there for you can wear a uniform all right and be a soldier. Only his superior will not be Herr Reinecke, but Herr Sauckel." Now, do you understand. that question, Witness?
A. The request made by Sauckel was impossible to be so, so that those statements could be an opportunity in order to criticize him about this particular requirement. I can not understand it in any other way.
Q. What do you mean by criticize? May I understand your statement in such a way that at the time you took it in such a way that the statement made by Milch was not serious?
A. No, his statement was never taken seriously; such request would not have been so anyway.
Q. Did not Speer, when he joined in a conference of the Central planning Board, when he had a discussion with Sauckel , always call Milch to attend those?
A. Yes, it had been done repeatedly. If often occurred that when Speer in order to get through with certain important thin s, that he called upon Milch to help him.
Q. According to the documents around 1943 the French Government issued the Amalgamation for work. You remember he spoke about that matter before?
A. Yes, I can remember that vaguely, that the French Government took such a measure.
Q. Do you know if that decree of the French Government was a legal thing, or an illegal one?
A. The French Government order was a legal procedure I am sure.
Q. In the affidavit General Fieldmarshal Milch said that according to the Fuehrer's order to Kluge and to Speer. As to Speer, was that made here in his capacity as Rearmament Minister, or as member of the Central Planning Board?
A. No. not as member of the Central Planning Board only as a Rearmament Minister - 673a)
Q. Do you know if Milch over made a report to Hitler concerning the general construction situation?
A. No, I don't know about that.
Q. Who was assigned the job of distributing labor to the various factories, and to the final factories?
A. The working organization -- or rather the Labor Offices.
Q. Do you know that Milch around 1943 told Hitler that the war was lost?
A. Yes, indeed, I can remember that very well. I can remember that Milch had a long conference with Hitler, and that is when Milch mentioned that matter.
Q. Was it known to you that Milch in a small circle of theirs expressed that feeling that the war was lost?
A. I mentioned before, that Milch very often was very free in his speeches, and very frank, and that he made such statements very often, and that he was not afraid to criticize anything.
Q. Is it known to you that between Hitler and Milch certain considerable differences existed, which planes should be built for the Luftwaffe, fighters or bombers?
A. Yes, that is known to me. I know that there were considerable differences concerning those planes, which Hitler joined in as well as Milch. Milch knew what he wanted, and he wanted a very strong defensive arm or weapon, which was the only way he first saw, to strike the enemy with bomber formations, whereas, Hitler always tried to accentuate attack planes, and that is all I know about this matter.
Q. This is the last question to you. Can you tell us how the cooperation changed between Milch nd Goering during the last few days of the war?
A. The situation that existed between Goering and Milch at the beginning became worse and worse from time to time. Particularly, I remember one particular case during the last few years where the relationship between Milch and Goering became more tense. The tension as far as I can remember was caused by the fact that Mich wanted a much stronger Court No. 2 (lrz) representation in his point of view, which, of course, was Goering's point of view too, and that was - 674a) Court No. 2 (lrz) enforcing of the defensive armament of the Luftwaffe, and that Milch made a reproach to Goering that he was not energetic enough on that question, and that he did not get it through with Hitler.
DR. BERGOLD: With that, Your Honor, I am through with the examination of the witness, and I shall place the witness at the disposal of the Prosecution. Before Mr. Denney does start, I have a few difficulties to discuss with you, Your Honor. Many of the witnesses which were granted me, especially those called, who are in the hands of the American Occupational Forces, have not been brought to Nurnberg as yet. I spoke about this several times, and I know I spoke to the Prosecution about it, who promised me that the witnesses would be brought to Nurnberg as fast as possible. I as a lawyer have no possibility whatever to bring the witnesses here to Nurnberg, neither those, who are in the custody of the Americans and the British, nor those who are free witnesses which are in Germany, the defense counsel has no right to do so. Therefore, the International Tribunal at the time had granted, all the witnesses be brought to Nurnberg. I had worked out a plan of examination of the witnesses, which of course, might collapse tomorrow, because the witnesses are not present. I would appreciate it very much if the Tribunal could order that these witnesses be brought here as soon as possible, and that the whole matter be expedited.
THE PRESIDENT: How many of these witnesses are now here, Doctor, here in Nurnberg?
DR. BERGOLD: Of these witnesses which I need for the continuation of the discussion of the Central Flaming Board and the Jaegerstab as known in general, are only have witnesses, who are in connection with the question of the Dachau experiments, by most important witnesses have not appeared as yet. Of course, for the time being I can continue the Dachau experiments, even if my beautiful plans are collapsed.
THE PRESIDENT: We don't want to handicap you in the presentation of your proof in the order in which you prefer it. Of course, the Tribunal has no means itself of transporting your witnesses here, that is to be done through army channels. However, the Tribunal has ordered the production of the - 675 witnesses, and we will see that they are produced, whether they can be done "a la carte" just when you want them, then that presents some practical difficulties.
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, I see.
THE PRESIDENT: But at any rate the Tribunal wants to assure you that we will do anything that is physically possible to assist you in the presentation of your proof.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you, Your Honor.
MR. DENNEY: In view of the short time remaining, I wonder if we could adjourn now, and take up the cross examination of the witness in the afternoon session?
THE PRESIDENT: Would you prefer that?
MR. DENNEY: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the Court will recess until 1:30 PM
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1:30 PM.
( a recess was taken until 1330 hours).
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1335 hours, 3 February 1947.)
PAUL KOERNER - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q If Your Honors pleas,witness, from what date until what date were you State Secretary in the Prussian Ministry of State?
A From April 1933 until April 1945 I was Undersecretary of State in the Prussian Ministry of the Interior.
Q When did you become State Secretary in the four year plan?
A When the four year plan was created in October 1936.
Q How long did you hold this position?
A I was in that position until the end.
Q Which was approximately May 1945?
A Certainly up to April 1945.
Q Yes, things were a little tense in Berlin after that.
A I left Berlin on 20 April 1945.
q Where was your office?
A My office was on Leipzigerstrasse.
Q What were your duties in connection with Goering?
A My duties were those of an Undersecretary of State - in those two fields of work.
Q Did you see Goering every day?
A I saw Goering formerly in the earlier years almost daily and later less frequently, and during the war only occasionally when he came to Berlin or when I went to the Fuehrer's headquarters.
Q How many times a month did you see him from 1939 on, the beginning of the war?
A There were times when I didn't see Goering for months on end.
Q When did he tell you that he wanted you to become a member of the Central planning Board?
A That was in the Spring of 1942.
Q. Did he speak with you personally about it?
A. Yes. I came back from sick leave and when I reported back to Goering on that occasion Goering told me that at the suggestion of Speer the Central Planning Board had been created, and I, at Goering's wish, should become a member.
Q. How long did the conversation last?
A. That, of course, I can't say now, bat that question was discussed among other questions by Goering.
Q. You stated on direct examination that there was no decree in connection with the formation of the Central Planning Board.
A. No decree, no.
Q. You're sure of that?
A. It is quite certain that it has not been created and a decree certainly not been published.
Q. Then you believe that the Central Planning Board came into existence by reason of Goering consenting to the establishment of the Board and the Board thereafter came as a matter of course?
A. Yes, the Central Planning Board was created by --
Q. Just answer the question witness.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever go to a concentration camp?
A. I went to a concentration camp once.
Q. When?
A. Either in 1942 or '43.
Q. Where was it?
A. That was in Auschwitz.
Q. Did you ever go to Dachau?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever go to Dachau?
A. No.
Q. Buchenwald?
A. No. Otherwise I know of no concentration camp. I do not know any concentration camp.
Q. What was the occasion of your visit to Auschwitz?
A. I made that trip in order to see the work being done in that area. I wanted to inspect the construction.
Q. Did you inspect the camp?
A. I went to the camp very briefly at the end of the inspection of Auschwitz.
Q. I am sorry I did not get the end of the answer.
A. I went briefly to that camp at the end of my inspection tour.
Q. You have stated that the sole task of the Central Planning Board was the distribution of raw material?
A. It was the agency to distribute raw materials.
Q. You said it was not in any way connected with labor?
A. It had no right to give orders and the distribution of labor was not among its tasks.
Q. You have also said that the Central Planning Board was solely an information agency.
A. I said that the Central Planning Board distributed raw materials. In that field it also had the right to make decisions. In other fields it did not. If the question of distribution was dealt with by the Central Planning Board, this happened as I said once before, from a purely informative point of view.
Q. In other words, they could make no decisions at all with reference to labor?
A. No. The Central Planning Board had no right to make decisions.
Q. Do you believe that the workers who came into Germany from foreign countries came voluntarily?
A. I know that the workers who were brought to Germany from foreign countries were recruited on a voluntary basis.
Q. All of them?
A. I beg your pardon?
A. All of the laborers who came from foreign countries came on a voluntary basis?
A. I certainly remember clearly that up to 1943 all workers --
Q. Witness, that is not my question. Answer it. I am not talking about 1943. I am talking, about workers who came from foreign countries. I will repeat the question. The workers we came from foreign countries, you believe, came voluntarily?
A. I think that the biggest part of them came on a voluntary basis.
Q. The biggest part? How many came involuntarily?
A. I do not know. I do not know the figures.
Q. But you had no reason to believe that any of them did come involuntarily, any substantial number?
A. I am convinced of that.
Q. And you have never heard anything about the use of force in the procurement of foreign labor?
A. No. I have not heard anything about that.
Q. From whom did the Central Planning Board receive its orders?
A. The Central Planning Board did not need any orders, because its tasks were quite clearly defined.
Q. So, to your knowledge, the Board or any of its members never did get any orders.
A. Not that I know of. I maintain Central Planning Board was never given any orders.
Q. You spoke this morning of the labor contract which was negotiated between GBA and the French Labor ministry?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember the name of the French Labor Minister?
680a
A No. As I said this morning, I do not know this German-French agreement except from the press.
Q Do you know who was head of the French state?
AAs far as I know that was Monsieur Laval who was Prime Minister, and head of the state was Petain.
Q Did you know Field Marshal von Flieder?
A Yes.
Q Did yon ever talk to him?
A I may have spoken to him.
Q Did you ever talk to him about any orders he issued in connection with workers being obtained by the German Army in the eastern front?
A No. I did not do this.
Q Not having done that, you would not know the basis for any such order that he issued, would you?
A No. I could not tell you this.
Q When did you first hear the defendant say the war was lost?
A If I remember correctly, that must have been in the year 1943.
Q Were you present when he told Hitler the war was lost?
A No. I knew this conversation between Hitler and Milch purely from reports.
Q Reports from Milch?
A I believe it was Milch, and also, I believe Speer talked to me about this conversation.
Q This occurred in 1943?
A I believe so. I cannot commit myself to a definite date, but I am almost certain it was in 1943.
Q Shortly after Stalingrad?
A I believe it was after Stalingrad.
Q Witness, you have a very bad memory . I will show you Document NOKW 307. This is a document headed "The Reichsmarshal of Greater Germany, Delegate for the Four Year Plan, Berlin, W9, 27 June 1943.
The State Secretary, Z. P. 170 g. Rs." Underneath that is written "Special Delivery, Immediate Delivery, Top 681-a Secret, Two Copies."
The Second Copy bears the Defendant Milch's initials on the left hand side. On the right hand side is the word "Speer" written in red pencil.
"I have just received the inclosed urgent telegram from the Reich Marshal, I enclose a copy and ask you to fix a date for a discussion of the question." It is signed "Koerner."
The first copy went to Speer and the second copy went to Milch.
The enclosure reads "To the 'Central Planning' for attention Staatssekretaer Koerher, Berlin, Loipziger Platz 11.
"Secret, urgent, immediate delivery.
"In a report made in connection with the air raid on the Muels Chemical Werks, the General Plenipotentiary for Special Matters connected with chemical production, has requested the following measures in order to guarantee the production of Buna.
"a) For partial reconstruction of Muels:
"l) 1000 men from the Todt organization are to be made available or the spot. The central offices and the local offices of the Todt organization are informed as to the types of skilled labor required.
"2) Further, the assignment of approximately 250 specialized mechanics is necessary.
"3) About 4000 tons of iron must be provided for the reconstruction.
"b) It must be immediately guaranteed, by the assignment of 40 specialists namely mechanics and electricians, that the work still necessary in connection with the completion of the Buna Factory in Ludwigshafen will be finished. All the offers made to obtain the above-mentioned manpower from labor sources have led to very little success. Continual delays arise in finishing the job the result of which is that the full capacity originally planned for the middle of 1943 will now only be reached at the end of 1943 at the earliest "c) This request holds good to an even greater extent of the Auschwitz works which are under Construction in Upper Silesia.
