Q. I have only a few remaining questions now. Who was the man who was 2068A competent for death sentences with the Luftwaffe?
A. All death sentences were under Goering's direct supervision. He had reserved the right to decide on that, contrary to what was the custom in the army, where the army commanders had also the right to decide on death sentences.
Q. Concerning the testimony of the witness, Richter, will you please tell us in what manner your 'phone calls' to other agencies or to the supreme command -- Through what channels these 'phone calls' went . . .
My machine had several levers, could in the house touch about four or five of my direct subordinates. When I wanted to make a 'phone call' then I had to get in touch with Richter who was in the ante room, and he had to make the connection with the official channel. I, myself, could not get into this channel directly. All 'phone calls' to Hitler, Goering and other agencies --military or civilians--only went through a special channel, official channel. That was not the normal postal network. In other words, if I wanted to show that in a plastic manner, I took off the receiver, pushed down the button "Richter" and said, "Richter, I want to talk to Goering now." And then I put down the receiver. If Goering was in and was ready to talk with me, then in two minutes I had the connection with Goering--wherever he was; whether he was in Germany or abroad was quite indifferent. Every connection would take only two minutes to be brought about because my talks had priority and all other agencies immediately disconnected; and then Richter told me, "Now the Reichsmarshall will be on the 'phone'," and then I could talk with him.
Thank you. Witness, again concerning the testimony of Richter: What letters did not go through the office of Richter?
A. If I speak from the military viewpoint, there was the open letter always went through Richter. Then there were military secret matters which also went via Richter; but in those cases on his own initiative he did not submit these matters himself out he gave them to the officer Court No. 2 (lrz) of my General Staff or to one of the adjutants, according to which field of tasks the letter belonged.
And then there were the so-called Top Secret matters. These matters were only transmitted by officers--and only directly to the receiver. I could not even show them to the officer of my General Staff. This concerned only questions of operational interest.
- 2069 a Every second year I would receive such a letter headed by Top Secret, this letter would not be seen by Richter, and I couldn't even discuss the letter with anybody unless there was a special order in it that it should be discussed.
And this letter I even had to keep in my own safe.
In a general way, the Top Secret matters were not left with me but they had to be sent back once you had taken knowledge of the contents. But, as I said before, if, during the whole war I have received two Top Secret letters that should be about correct.
Q Witness, concerning your knowledge of the situation which now is subject to the general judgment... In this connection I would like to ask you: Did, at any time during the war, you receive foreign newspapers or were you authorized to read them?
A No, we didn't receive any foreign newspapers. If there were matters concerning air planes in certain newspapers, then we would get a copy, and a copy was sent to us.
Q Were you in a position to hear foreign radio broadcasts, and were you allowed to do so?
A No, that was quite prohibited in Germany, and strictly prohibited for myself. Within the Luftwaffe there were a certain number of persons who had been appointed, and they were authorized to hear the radio of the foreign country. I know, for instance, that the Chief of the General Staff was authorized to do so, and also the Chief of our Signal Service. I was not authorized to do so; and the other Air Marshals who had the air fleets were not authorized to do so, either...
Q Witness, but thousands of persons in Germany have listened in secret to these foreign senders. Couldn't didn't you, yourself, get knowledge of such a manner con cerning the way foreign countries judged the events in Germany?
A First of all, I myself, had the tribunal where Germans where persons were judged when they listened to foreign stations. This tribunal had to condemn, had to sentence a man. And I, as the man in charge of the tribunal, received the sentence submitted to me, and I was asked whether I 2070 a would like to mitigate it.
I shouldn't have held this position if I, myself, would have infringed the regulations.
Second, I, myself, thought it was ridiculous that listening to foreign radio stations was prohibited to the German people. After all, the German people were considered much more immature than they really were. Therefore, I considered it below my dignity to infringe such an order. Also, I would have endangered my people. I couldn't have done that secretly because my adjutant and my ordnance officers were around; they could have heard it themselves or others of the staff... It is true that none of them would have reported me, denounced me but perhaps they would have started to like it and they would have listened to foreign radio stations themselves, and then they would have been in a bad situation and I would have had the moral responsibility for their happenings.
Q Witness, the experts in the Reich Air Ministry - did none of them tell you anything about foreign stations - I mean, the persons who were authorized to listen to these foreign radio stations?
A They had the so-called Fuehrer Order Number One. Therefore, they did not tell me anything.
Q Do you mean to say that during the whole war you never heard anything about the way the foreign countries judged the German events?
A No.
Q On several occasions you have travelled through Germany and through the occupied territories. During these journeys, did you at no occasion notice a thing which was contrary to humanity?
A I think that about ninety-five percent of my journ eys have been by plane and there I could not see anything of that.
And, on the occasions when I used the train which was mainly when I took part in the Fighter Staff journeys - then the travelling took place in a special train and we always went right away to the point where we had to go in order to do our work. And, there again, I had no possibility of seeing anything and on other occasions I had no possibility of travelling.
Q Witness, will you now explain to the Tribunal how over-burdened you were with work during all these years?
2071 a
A May I refer to my field of tasks which is shown in one exhibit?
DR. BERGOLD: May I ask this Tribunal to now see the charts which are in the Document Book Reman II, as first document, and look at this chart?
THE PRESIDENT: You mean defense document book?
DR. BERGOLD: Defense Document Book Number 2, Milch 2. Has the Tribunal found the chart, or doesn't the Tribunal have it? Defense Document Book 2, Page 1.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
A. Until the end of 1941 my main task was to be Inspector General of the Luftwaffe. From that point onward, the work as GL took the main part, while in my capacity as Inspector General I continuously travelled around by plane. But as Inspector General I was bound more strongly to the Berlin Ministry. Oh, I beg your pardon, I mean to say as GL. There we had meetings every day; and in my capacity as GL I took over a tentative staff in the Ministry which exceeded four thousand. I reduced this staff to about half of that; but in spite of that the number of conferences and meetings could not be reduced. Therefore, I had to go through the incredible amount of paper which was to be read and also the paper which had to be signed; and I had to take it home in the evening. I think that always amounted to two large suitcases and sometimes even three of them. On the average I would work at home until 2:00 o'clock. During the night the reading was the main task because in all technical matters I had to be up to the mark myself; and that was not quite simple for me for the very reason that I, after all, had not studied technique but rather was a self-made man and soldier who had been a pilot. In the morning I would start my duties at 9:00 o'clock or at 9:15. In general I would eat my lunch at my desk and often I even ate my dinner at my desk.
I had the impression that I was overburdened with work; and even aside from these two functions, as GL and Inspector General of the Luftwaffe, I, of course, had to conduct different other offices in the Ministry. They made quite a lot of work for me. Even in my last position I was helped very strongly by the excellent General Foerster.
Q. Witness, are the offices as they are shown on this chart which I have submitted to the Tribunal correct, and can you confirm them as such?
A. Yes.
DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, this concludes my interrogation; and I give the witness over to the prosecution. Your witness.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honor, we have some documents which are being brought in; and I wonder if we might adjourn until 11:00 o'clock.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. The Tribunal will recess until 11:00 o'clock.
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the Court please rise. This Tribunal is in recess until 11:00 o'clock.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. You testified as a witness before the International Military Tribunal on behalf of the defendant Goering, did you not?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And in the course of your testimony before the Tribunal you stated that you were the second highest officer in the Air Force?
A. Yes, that was my rank.
Q So that the only one who ranked you was Goering?
A. Yes.
Q. And that continued up until the time when you told us this morning that you completely withdrew, which, I believe was sometime in January of 1945?
A. Yes. May I remark here that since 1937 several officers were in the second place. That is to say, the Chief of the General Staff, the Chief of the Personnel Office, and also the GL. We were all of the same rank, as it were, but I was the most senior officer among them.
Q. And under Goering there were really four eschelons; that is the Chief of Staff, the Inspector General, the Generalluftseugmeister, and the Director of the Personnel Office?
A. Yes. They were all equal to each other.
Q. Goering was on top, and then came these four in a parallel line below him; is that right?
A. Yes, under Goering.
Q. And you, from 1941, November, following Udet's death until sometime in the middle of 1944, held both the office of Generalluftseugmeister and Inspector General?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, during the first trial you testified -- again I am speaking of the International Military Tribunal -- you testified that the first knowledge you had of concentration camps, other then the two, Dachau and Oranienburg, occurred following your capture?
A. Yes.
Q. And prior to that time, prior to the time you were captured, you know nothing about the conditions in concentrations camps?
A. I described very carefully at the time, as I did here, what I saw in my one and only visit to a concentration camp. That was Dachau.
Q. That visit, as I recall, was made in approximately 1935?
A. As far as I recall it, yes.
Q. Now, when did you first learn that concentration camp inmates were being employed in the Luftwaffe?
A. I can not give you the date here. It was their use in the Heinkel factory in Oranienburg. That factory was a few kilometers away from the concentration camp. The factory did not report this to us at first, but it became clear as time went on. As far as I know, the chief of my technical office reported it in one of the conferences, but I could not know whether that was in 1943 or the beginning of 1944.
Q. It would have been '42?
A. I am unable to say that, but I hardly think it was so early that concentration camp inmates were used and supplied for our work, but I am afraid I cannot really say precisely.
Q. Now, when did you first learn about foreign laborers being employed in the German war economy?
A. When in 1941 I became G.L. I found that foreign workers and prisoners of war were working in factories.
Q. Did you ever get any reports on the numbers of prisoners of war and foreign workers who were working in Germany?
A. The total figure I saw only in 1944 when on the 1st of March we made this list with Sauckel. As I recall it that was the first time that I saw the total figures. There are single detail figures which might have cropped up earlier, of course, but statistically speaking which the G.L. drew up, the figures were always mentioned which were reported to us by the industry.
Q. So, as far as you recall, the first time that you saw any large number of figures with reference to foreign labor and prisoners of war was in 1944, maybe in connection with the chart which you described just the other day?
A. That is low I recall it now.
Q. Do you recall speaking to one of the judges the other day about the situation of the Polish workers in Germany?
A. Yes, I recall that occasion.
Q. And you stated that there were isolated instances in which Polish people were mistreated, if I recall?
A. No, all I said was I can well imagine that people misbehave at times and equally that people mistreat other people. I do not know a concrete instance myself, but I talk about cases when I saw Poles myself.
Everything was in order.
Q. Well, you weren't familiar then with the treatment which was expressed by Governor General Frank in a letter to Sauckel of 21 November, 1943?
A. No, I do not know that letter.
MR. DENNEY: This, your Honors, is Document 908 PS, and I am just quoting in part from it now to see whether or not it recalls anything to the witness.
Q. "The recruiting of Poles for the Mobilization of labor in the Reich takes place unconditionally; in the assignment to their work they have no personal say. Their obligation to work in the Reich is unlimited in regard to time. Even in the case of serious family reasons they have no guarantee for a return to their homeland. Therefor for the Poles employment in the Reich has essentially the charactteristics of a restriction of freedom, similar to imprisonment.
"The regulation of 5 October, 1941, with reference to the application of labor laws to the treatment of Polish laborers places them outside the community of the factory. No obligation for social care exists beyond the purpose of maintaining their capacity to work."
And then over a little farther he says, "According to the regulations of 51 March 1943 on leave of absence for civilian workers (male and female) of Polish extraction employed in the Reich, the rights of Poles to leave of absence and family trips home are not in effect at present. According to the Reich wages and hours law issued for them, the Polish farm workers have no claim whatsoever to leave of absence. In case of an exceptional permission for a temporary return to the homeland only to me without pay may be granted.
"In the past two years a number of especially efficient Polish workers were permitted to go home on leave in order to give an incentive for greater efficiency to those Poles whose work is not satisfactory; but the number of furloughs was so limited that most of the Poles now working their fourth year in the Reich have not yet had the privilege of home leave.
"Civil litigation arising from contracts of employment with Polish labor shall not come under the jurisdiction of Labor courts. The Poles do not have the privilege of protection through agencies of the state as is the case in regard to other foreigners. Only the possibility of obtaining a settlement by arbitration through the office of the Employment Service exists for them.
"According to the police order by the Reich Minister of the Interior of 8 March 1940, all civilian workers of Polish nationally extraction are compelled to have the distinguishing mark "P" attached to all their clothing. We knew from experience that the Poles regard this a particularly degrading regulation.
"The Poles are forbidden to take part in church services for two German population and visit any churches. Up to now it has not been permitted to send Polish clergymen to the Reich to organize their own services. Because of the pronounced religious feeling of the Poles according to their Roman Catholic faith, this lack of spiritual care is of tremendous significance. I causes parents in the Government-General to prevent their children from leaving the country.
"In addition, the attitude of the clergy to the Mobilization of labor in the Reich is strongly affected and the population is very much under its influence."
Then it goes on a little further and says, "Poles who were transported to the Reich under the Mobilization of Labor and who are permanently incapable of working because of insanity, and are in need cf care in an institution, are no longer taken back to their homeland." Did you ever hear anything about this particular decree having to do with Polish workers?
A. No, this is quite unknown to me. As far as I know we are in our industry had no Polish workers, at least I know nothing about it.
Q. So far as you know you never had any Polish people working in the Luftwaffe?
A. I never saw anyone there and therefore am unable to say anything. As far as I know they were usually working in the country.
Q. In the country?
A. In the country, yes. There I saw Poles at the end of the war, and that is what I described previously to the Court the other day.
Q. Now, about prisoners of war, what kinds of prisoners of war did you know were working in Germany?
A. I know of French and Russian prisoners of war.
Q. You didn't know about any others?
A. I cannot recall anything at the moment. As far as I know Norwegian, Belgian, Dutch and also Polish prisoners of war were also released immediately. From Greece and countries like that I saw nobody, and at the end I know that Italian prisoners of war, the so-called Imi's, worked in Germany on as all scale, but what I saw, our own Luftwaffe industry, were Frenchmen and a small number of Russians. Of course, it is quite possible that some others were used, but I couldn't say at this moment of what nationality. That would have been another question.
I didn't recall to have seen any.
Q. I am going to land you a letter from Sauckel to you, together with an acknowledgment from you to Sauckel. The letter is dated 1 April, 1943, and your acknowledgment is dated 7 April, 1943.
MR. DENNEY: The court will recall that he said he never had any communications from Sauckel.
Q. (Continuing) And in addition enclosed with this is a speech which Sauckel gave in Posen on the 5th and 6th of February, 1943, and on Page 17 of the original there are some rather interesting figures.
MR. DENNEY: It will take a little time to get the copies. I believe on the German copy, Dr. Bergold, the letters appear at the end. that is on the photostatic copies. You have the whole speech, but we are only interested in the two letters and the two excerpts from the speech.
If Your Honor pleases, I ask that this be marked Exhibit 132 for identification. This is a letter, dated 1 April 1943. The writer of the letter is Sauckel, and the letter is addressed to the defendant.
"Most honored Field Marshal, "I take the liberty of enclosing in confidence three copies of the speech I gave in Posen an 5th and 6th February 1943, on the occasion of the Reich and Gauleiters meeting and beg you kindly to peruse it.
The figures contained in this speech refer to the end of the year 1942. Of course, the figures given concerning utilization of labor have again increased in the meantime. I would ask for your continued sympathetic understanding of the interests of manpower utilization, and your understanding and assistance in my task as far as possible. On my side, I can assure you that I always have asked the offices of the labor supply administration subordinate to me for close and successful cooperation with all departments and that I will do so for the future too."
"With Heil Hitler, yours respectfully, Sauckel."
And, on the 7th, the last page, the defendant acknowledge receipt of this letter: "Most esteemed Gauleiter, "I think you most cordially for kindly transmitting to me the speech you made in Posen on 5th and 6th February 1943 on the occasion of the Reich and Gauleiters meeting.
Heil Hilter! Yours."
That is addressed to Sauckel, Berlin W 8, Hohrenstrasse 65, and of particular interest is paragraph 2 on page 1.
THE PRESIDENT: The other way around, Mr. Denney.
MR. DENNEY: Paragraph 1 on page 2.
THE PRESIDENT: That's right.
MR. DENNEY: Yes; I'm sorry.
"According to the Fuehrer's decree of March 21st, 1942, the Plenipotentiary General for the Employment of Labor has the task, within the scope of the tasks of the Plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, the Reich Marshal of Greater Germany, party member Hermann Goering, of securing the necessary manpower for the entire war economy and particularly for the armament industry. He must guarantee a uniform method, adapted to the requirements of war economy, of controlling the utilization of all available manpower including hired foreigners and prisoners of war, as well as the mobilization of all manpower still untapped in Greater Germany, including the Protectorate, and also in the Government-General and in the occupied territories."
Those two terms, as Your Honors know, in the first place refer to Bohemia and Moravia, and in the second, to Poland, and then, on page 11, paragraph 4, there is a recapitulation with reference to employed workmen and employees in World War I. June 1914 shows that they had a total of ten million, seven hundred odd thousand. In December of the same year they had seven million four hundred odd thousand. In September 1918 they had eight million eight hundred odd thousand. In those figures, they refer to men and women. Then, in the following page, they speak of the present war, the number of people employed - in June 1939, 25 million, two hundred odd thousand men and women; November 1942, 28 million, five hundred odd thousand, both men and women. And then on page seven there is a list of foreign workers employed according to their nationaliities, and that list is broken up into prisoners of war on the one hand, and workers on the other. The workers listed are Belgians, 131,000; French 135,000; Italians, 200,000; Jugoslavs, 54,000; Croates, 64,000; Dutch, 154, 000; Hungarians, 31,000; Protectorate, Bohemia and Moravia, 193,000; in the General Government, which is Poland, 896,000; Estonians and Latvians, 30,000; Protective Power, 501,000; Eastern workers, 1,350,000; other foreigners, 275,000. Prisoners of war - Belgians 55,000 all these numbers are approximate, again, as are those listed under "Workers." - French, 932,000; English, 45, 000; Jugoslavs, 101,000; Poles, 33,000; Russians, 488,000;
others, 4,000.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Do you recall receiving them from Sauckel on April 1st, 1943?
A No; I was not here for a few days at the beginning of April - I saw his remark, by somebody else, on this document. It probably says - can't read it very well probably something about the files of the Central Planning Board. Perhaps this letter may have been submitted to me later on. Nor do I know whether I replied myself. I certainly did not read the report 2083 a because otherwise I would be able to recall the figures.