"Speer: That's pretty bad.
"Pleiger continues: No, it allocated over 80,000 wagons in December.
"Speer: However, it was already at that time gigantic...."
Then we continue on page 1024. They arc talking about a kind of specialized worker.
"Speer: Can you give me by name any smelters or other people which could be taken out?
"Rohland: Yes."
This would still be another 50 or 100, I guess.
MR. DENNEY: Then we deduct on page 1024 they are now talking about certain types of specialized workers, smelters.
"Rohland: I figure about 40 men per Martin furnace. If we take away 20 or 15 -- let's say 20 -- as trained Martin-furnace smelters, we would have 300 men. 300 smelters could help us a lot. But when will they come?
Speer: Then we could deceive the French about the industry in such a way, as if we would release as prisoners of war the rollers and smelters -- they have if they give us their names.
Rohland: We opened our own office in Paris. In other words you mean, the French should report the smelters who are prisoners of war in German?
Milch: I would simply say: you will get two people for one of this kind.
Speer: The French firms know exactly, who is a smelter among the prisoners of war. There you should make it appear, as if they would be released. They give us the names and then we take them out. Try it.
Rohland: That's an idea.
Milch: We in the Laftwaffe and airplane-industry will also try to find out; who is a roller, smelter or furnace mason.
Rohland: But by the time the people arrive the quarter will be over."
Here we have these men that are in bad shape for smelters. So, what do they do? Sitting around try to figure cut about their labor. They say, "Let's ask the French to give us the names of the prisoners of war, who are French prisoners, who are smelters, be will indicate to them that we are going to release them to go back to work in the French economy." Filch says, "No, just tell them you will give "them two for one of this kind." What do they plan to do-- they give the names of smelters, and then put them out to work in smelting factories for Germany.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Do you know whether any attempt was made then to supply France with two others?
MR. DENNEY: No, your Honors, I have no information about that.
The 32nd meeting we have here -- B 10 and 12, but I don't think there is anything of importance to be read there.
We go now to the 33rd meeting. The meeting is in A, 31 to 35, and also appears in B, 13 to 15, as the results. It is 62 and 63 of the German Book for interpreters. This is a meeting concerning labor supply February 16, 1943 at the Reich Ministry for Armament and Munitions. "Thimm: I should like to say something about tho labor supply possibilities. Perhaps you will permit me to emphasize the negative side a little. The greatest difficulties result from the fact that the supply of labor outstanding could not be fully dispatched from the East, but came in ever diminishing numbers. One may say that they have almost become completely exhausted. Eastern laborers during the last six weeks arrived only in smaller numbers than in former times, so that they can hardly be included to an appreciable amount on the credit side of the supply account. In any case their numbers are small. The foremost reason is that in former months most transports were dispatched from the Ukraine while the main recruitment areas were these which in the meantime had become operational areas, or even were no longer in our hands. The forecasts we made applied to a large extent to the transport of people from the Caucasus district, to Juban, from areas like parod measures which should enable us to draw more Eastern workers again during the following months. I venture to think that we should be able, on a conservative calculation, to transfer during tho month of March between 150,000 and 200,000 laborers from the east to the West."
Speer interjects: "Including or excluding those needed for agriculture. But in my opinion, sending those needed for agriculture it will be necessary to apply much pressure, since just these districts are concerned which have been pacified to a certain extent, and for the same reason will not be very much inclined to release labor.
This is calculated on the assumption that some labor has to be released also from the eastern and northern parts of the East.
The second area, capable of releasing a considerable amount of labor is the General Government, and that for the January estimate which has been drawn up with particular caution as I again wish to emphasize. We expect that the figures will rather be surpassed than not reached. I think we can expect a number of 40,000 of which it is true, a part will have to be given to 186a agriculture, if we intend no more than to cover the losses which we had to inflict last autumn.
Beyond this it ought to be possible in my opinion, to imply within the Reich, and especially for the mining industry, part of the polish Building Service. I venture to think one ought to enlarge this organization in such a way that more age groups than so far are called up for it. since this procedure is functioning. The younger age groups which in fact are especially suited for mining could be dispatched to the Reich. In this case the supervisors who are provided for the greatest part by the Building Service, will be needed only in very small numbers in the Reich.
The next area would be the Protectorate on which I cannot make a final statement today. We have promised for the month of March about 10,000 laborers. But I am of the opinion that some loosening-up is possible. The Commissioner will seen in a personal visit take in hand the possibility of this loosening-up.
France is included in the account with 100,000 laborers for March. Messages which I received permit us to hope that this number will be increased in the middle of March. Belgium is included with 40,000, Holland with 30,000, Slovakia with 20,000 who, it is true, are exclusively suited for agriculture, since their share of individual workers has been completely delivered. This item consists exclusively of agricultural laborers, owing to a State treaty. For the remaining part of the foreign areas I included another 10,000. This amounts altogether to 400,000 laborers who should arrive in March. One might be entitled to add for the last month altogether 10,000 prisoners of war.
These are non to be drawn from the East. It can be expected that this number might under certain conditions be surpassed, since the High Command intends especially for operational reasons, to take the prisoners of war back to the Reich, particularly from the areas threatened by the enemy. A former item concerns the fluctuation of labor which certainly amounts to about 100,000 laborers. Then there are items which at the moment cannot be estimated; the yield from the threatened areas and from the "Stoppage 187a action". Here I cannot venture to name final figures, but I hope to be able to do so next month.
Sauckel: Of course we regret very much that last autumn we were unable to recruit as much as we would have liked in the areas which now are again in enemy hands. This is partly due to the fact we were not assisted in the degree we had expected. Moreover we were not able to effect the removal of the civil population which had been planned. These events are an urgent reminder of the fact that it is necessary to employ foreign laborers at once and in great numbers in Germany proper and in the actual armaments industry. You may be certain what we wish to achieve this. We have not the slightest interest in creating difficulties for the armaments office, even for those working for German interest abroad, by taking labor away from them to an unreasenable extent. But on this occasion I should like to ask you to try and understand our procedure. We Germans surely have sent to front between 50 and 75 of our skilled workers. A part of them has been killed while the nations subjugated by us need no longer shed thed their blood. Thus they can preserve their entire capacity with regard to skilled workers, Inasmuch as they have not been transferred to Germany which is the ease only for a much smaller percentage than all of us supposed, and in fact they do use them partly for manufacturing things which are not in the least important for German war economy. If we proceed energetically against this abuse, I ask you to give me credit for so much reason that I do not intend to damage the foreign interests of the German armaments Industry. The quality of the foreign worker is such that it cannot be compared with that of the German worker. But even then I intend to create a similar proportion between skilled and workers trained for their job, as it exists in Germany by force of tradition, since it has come about that we had to send men to the front in much larger numbers than we requested France or any other country to do.
Moreover no shall endeavor increasingly to bring about on a generous scale the adaptation of the French, Polish, and Czech workers. I do not see for the moment any necessity for limiting the use of foreign labor. The only thing I ask is that we understand each other, so that the immense difficulties and friction between the 188a respective authorities disappear and the program drawn up by us will by no means be frustrated by such things.
There are without a doubt still enough men in France, Holland, Belgium, the protectorate, and the General Govern ment to meet our labor demands for the next months. I confess that I except more success from such a procedure with respect to heavier work or for work where shifts of 10 or more hours are customary, than from relying on the use of German women and men exclusively. We shall have better success by proceeding this way provided the foreign workers still obey, which remains a risk we always run, than by using weaker German women and girls as labor in places of very important armament work, where foreigners may be used for security reasons......
The situation in France is this; after I and my assistants had succeeded after difficult discussions in inducing Laval to introduce the Service Act this act has now been enlarged, owing to our pressure so that already yesterday three French ago groups have been called up. We are now therefore legally and with the assistance of the French government entitled to recruit laborers in France from three age groups, whom we can use in French factories in the future, but of whom we may choose some for our use in Germany and send them to Germany. I think in France the ice is now broken. According to reports received they now have begun to think about a possible breakthrough by the Bolcheviks and the dangers which thereby threaten Europe. The resistance which the French Government has hitherto shown, is diminishing. Within the next days I shall go to France in order to set the whole thing in motion, so that tho losses in the East may be some what balanced by increas ing recruitment and calling-up in France.
If we receive comprehensive lists in time, we shall, I think, be able to cover all demands by dispatching in March 800,000 laborers.
Speer: Recruitment abroad as such is supported by us. We only fear very much that the skilled workers extracted from the occupied countries do not always reach the appropriate factories in Germany. It might certainly be better if we acted in such a way that the parent firms of Germany which work 189a with the French and Czech factories would comb out the foreign works more than before for their own use.
Sauckel: We made an agreement with Field Marshal Milch. You will get the factories which are urgently needed for your airplane motors, etc; these will be completely safeguarded. In the same way I promised Admiral of the Fleet Doenitz today that U-boat repair firms proper are absolutely safeguarded. We shall even be able to provide our own armament factories on French soil with labor extracted from French factories, in the main from the unoccupied territory where there still are metal workers which have their full complement of skilled workers without even having been touched so far.
Hildebrandt: May I point out at this point that we have to put up with the loss of the Italian workers this year. This according to present discussions, concerns 300,000 men altogether, or 15 to 20,000 a month. If we deduct the first installment, the remaining ones to a great part are just highly skilled metal workers.
Sauckel: This is a request of the Fuehrer, but he had not yet finally decided.
Hildebrandt: But we have been told to be prepared to lose those men.
Speer: We ourselves quite support the combing-out abroad. On the other hand we must be entitled -- and this was agreed -- to exclude or prefer particular kinds of work, e.g. the armour factories. In France we are more and more turning toward giving up finishing processes, and stressing the sub-contracting. It is the foundries and similar works, e.g. for the use of the aluminum industry, which we wish to use to capacity. We could force the production of Opal, so that in this case Peugeot who manuc facture the forged parts for Opal, the parent firm, might demand more labor for this while this while the rest of their workers would be taken over by Opal.
190a Then page 2292 "Milch:
With regard to France there is in France an industy which manufactures complete aeroplane motors and spare parts. We have transferred to France the manufacture of everything which can be made there without impairing secrecy. These are training planes, transport planes, etc. However, since we wish to make better use those possibilities, we have transferred to a great extent the manufacturing of parts. The complete product must be kept secret from the French; but in every secret appliance there are only a few parts which are to be kept secret. The bulk is made up of the other parts; their manufacture has been transferred to France to a great extent. In the same manner we have started the employment of many construction engineers there. Today there is continuous work in France for several thousand construction engineers. The industry which works in France for our benefit needs today 20,000 men who must be provided by us in order to fulfill the program. The production lags far behind the program agreed upon. While we fulfill in Germany the whole of the program, it is being met in France by only 30 per cont. True, it is now on the increase since we intervened during the last weeks and months. On principle we have kept the State out of this collaboration with French industry and have had the German firms deal with the French firms. They are called sponsor firms so that now this system works. This system has not been completed everywhere, but it is on the way all over, and we have had rather good results. We are often told we have almost the whole of Europe at our dispon sal. But the production which we receive from France is insignificant, except for army cars. The whole potential French production is not used by us so far, but only a small percentage.
If we were not forced to produce in France, since many facilities, rooms, machines, etc, cannot be transferred to Germany, if the housing of workers were not difficult, etc., then we might prefer to transfer everything to Germany and let all work be done here. But we would have too great losses in production, apart from the restiveness of the men. Yesterday we made an agreement. I am very grateful that this matter will now be put right on the spot by you, Gauleiter Sauckel, together with General von der Heyde and Colonel Brueckner. It is most difficult to get French laborers to Germany. These things cannot be 191a decided or regulated by authorities, but only a sponsor firm has the necessary means of finding out about it.
I therefore propose to make use of sponsor firms, especially hero in France the system of sub-contracting is very much developed. Behind a factory which organizes the whole business, as far as is known from the outside, there are in fact other factories employed in preparation and semifabrication. But our sponsor firms would be able to comb out these sub-contractors as well, do ought to charge our people with combing out all those firms and to find out what men work for our program. Who does not will be spateked by us.
"Of course, a front exists somewhere in the East. This front will be held for a certain time. The only thing which tho Russians inherit if we evacuate an area is the population. The question is whether we had not better make it a rule to take the population back as far as 100 km. to the rear of the front. All tho civil population will be taken back 100 km. behind the front. There are no trenches for which labor would be needed.
"Timm: We tried to take the population of Charkow back, but the officer commanding the fortress of Charkow requested 90-120,000 people only for the construction of field works so that we had to provide even complete railway trains.
"Weger: They were even undertaking demolitions.
"Milch: But this is done by the Engineers. Any hope of getting prisoners of war from the East hardly exists today.
"Sauckel: If any prisoners are taken there, they will be needed.
"Milch: We have made a request for an order that a certain percentage of men in the Anti-Aircraft Artillery must be Russians. Fifty thousand will be taken altogether; 30,000 are already employed as gunners. This is an amusing thing that Russians must work the guns. The last 20,000 arc still outstanding. Yesterday I received a letter from the Army High Command, in which they say they could release net a single man; they themselves have not enough. Thus this measure will not be successful for us."
192a I don't think that the Court needs to be advised that the employment of Russian prisoners of war as anti-aircraft gunners is in violation of the laws of war.
Used as anti-aircraft gunners, certainly not against the Germans when they are prisoners of war.
I might point out in passing that in the German army, unlike ours, the anti-aircraft is part of the air force. In our army the anti-aircraft is part of the coast artillery and part of the ground forces. In the German army it is part of the Luftwaffe.
If Your Honor please, the next meeting is the 36th conference, which appears on pages 16 to 26 of Document Book A. It is quite lengthy, and I would like to put the parts in at one time. I wonder if we can adjourn now?
THE PRESIDENT: I was about to suggest that. You may start with that, then, in the morning and complete it in one sitting.
The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 7 January 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 3 January 1947, 0930, Justice Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHALL) Military tribunal No. 2 is now in session.
God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
MR. DENNEY: I have put on Your Honor's desk and given defense counsel a copy of the consolidated index in part, with marks in Books A and B, for Your Honor's convenience, and sometime later we hope to give you one with the meetings arranged in chronological order, indicating where they are to be found in the book. With reference to meeting number 32, which was not read, if the Court recalls, which appears at page 10 and 12 of Exhibit No. 48 B, we should like to withdraw that because of the fact that the defendant was not present at that meeting. So I say, we did not read it and correct.
MR. DENNEY: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: The Court has determined that under the Charter and the Ordinance, this exhibit is admissible. Its weight, however, in view of the peculiar circumstances attending it is of course still for the Tribunal to determine. This ruling is made after conference with the judges of Tribunal I, who had a similar problem presented, and which made the same ruling as this Tribunal now makes.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, that question will come up again, because we have interrogations and affidavits from other defendants in the first trial, who have since either been executed or taken their own lives.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal feels that the very broad scope of the section of the Charter and the Ordinance dealing with the admission of evidence justifies the admission of this exhibit.
Before you start, also I have been advised that Dr. Bergold will have some request to make with reference to the afternoon session. We will hear you now.
DR. BERGOLD: To the High Tribunal, I should like to make a request: I am asking for permission to be absent from the first half of the afternoon session, as Colonel Holsten of the Nuernberg Military Government has asked me to a conference this afternoon.
I therefore ask your approval that my assistant, Dr. Milch, may be present in my place at the first half of the afternoon session. I assume that the Court has received my application to admit Dr. Milch as my deputy. I do not know definitely. I was told by the information center that my application has already been forwarded to Your Honors to admit this gentleman as my representative. I therefore request that he be allowed to appear in my place during the first half of the afternoon session.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the name of your assistant?
DR. BERGOLD: Dr. Milch. He is the brother of the defendant Milch. He is an attorney, and I have already directed a written request to this effect to the Tribunal a few days ago.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal sees no objection to Dr. Milch's substituting for Dr. Berhold this afternoon. The Secretary-General will please make a note of that determination.
DR. BERGOLD: Many thinks.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, at this time we will hand out page 169 A, which goes in Document Book 1 D, immediately following page 169. That was inadvertently left out of Your Honors' Document Book. It is page 8 of Exhibit 204 PS and Dr. Bergold had that in the original German. It would have completed his book. That should be 169 A, if you please, to be inserted between pages 169 and 170, Document Book 1B. That is part of Document 204 PS, which is Exhibit 39 in evidence.
Before coming to the 36th meeting of the Central Planning Board, which was held on April 23, 1943, I should like to direct Your Honor's attention to a letter of 8 April 1943, which appears in Document Book 2 C at page 101, and which is at page 176 of the German Book 2. We offer this as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 49. It's document No. NOKW 287. This is a letter to Sauckel and Goering, dated 8 April 1943, subject: "Protection of Industry."
"The continuously increasing drafting of German members of the Staff, from the production as well as from the security terms (plant protection and plant fireguards) make it necessary to assign more and more foreign labor to the factories of the armament industry.
