These were covered boats with cabins, and I could measure the temperature. I could correlate the time with the temperature and after I do this in 10 or 20 cases I obtain a curve, but what Professor Holzloehner says here clearly refers to animals experiments.
Q. Let's refer to the next paragraph; I wonder if this refers to animals experiments. The next paragraph states:
Q. The blood count, as well as the changes in the blood analysis were also tested in such severe freezing." Is that referring to animals, to the dogs and cats he mentioned? That has nothing to do with the test on human beings which he refers to later in the report?
A. May I read the context?
Q. Yes, that is paragraph 3 of page 10 of page 42 of the original?
A. Yes, I would like to read the context. It reads: "The blood count, as well as the changes in the blood analysis were also tested in such severe freezing. These investigations yielded few new results and they correspond to the results of slow freezing or the results determined from local freezing. Among these changes, the considerable rise in viscosity in dogs and cats are mentioned, which makes it obvious that they were animal experiments.
Q. Alright, let us refer to the next page. This will be on page 11, which is page 89 of the document book in English. Refer to the third paragraph from the top, pardon me, Doctor, we will back up to the second paragraph which says as follows:
"It has now been possible to conduct a series of investigations of human beings who were rescued after having been in cold water for a long time. The relevant statements we owe to the cooperation of Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher and Stabsarzt Dr. Finke. They refer to a stay in water of 2 to 12 degrees."
There is no question but that the relating facts in this report were facts deduced from a series of investigations on human beings who were rescued after being in cold water for a long time; is that correct?
A. Yes, that is true. I heard later that Dr. Finke was one of Holzloehner's assistants at the sea rescue station in Besan. I am convinced that part of the findings were based on actual experience in practice in rescue from the sea.
Q. Let us examine a few of these pages, Doctor, the next paragraph Holzloehner says:
"The rapidity with which numbness occurs is remarkable. It was determined that already 5 to 10 minutes after fall ing in, an advancing rigor of the skeletal muscles sets in, which renders the movement of the arms especially increasingly difficult.
This affects respiration also: inspiration is deepened and expiration is delayed."
Do you mean to say now that during rescue operations one would actually watch a man fall into the water, then sit by and do nothing for five or ten minutes until he becomes rigid, until his respiration slows.
A. No, but one does pull a man out of the water with rigor of the muscles and slow breathing. Such experiences have occurred everywhere. In my direct examination I spoke of this same experience of rigor within five or ten minutes by Captain Mazer of the American service. The same experience has been had by every rescue service in the world.
Q. Now further down in the paragraph we find the words and this is the sentence after the one I just read-we find the words. "The rigor is a conditional reflex and not, as many persons apparently think, a contraction of the corresponding muscles due to cold. It ceases spontaneously at death."
Now, do you mean to imply seriously, Doctor, that you as a member of the armed forces would expect one of your medical officers to treat members of the armed forces that way or that they would sit there and let the ill man die in the water so they could take measurements, make observations and investigations?
A. These sentences do not indicate that either. I should like to refer to the first paragraph of Holzloehner's lecture, which reads:
"Observations by the Sea Distress Service have shown that the reduction in body temperature proceeds very rapidly in the case of persons in distress at sea subjected to water temperature below 15 degrees.
As unconsciousness or even death can occur already after half an hour, the possibility of using plans and boats is greatly decreased. Moreover, observations of mass catastrophes (the sinking of transports or war ships) revealed that even a rather long time after the rescue, danger to life still exists. Thus, sudden deaths were observed 20 minutes to 1½ hours after rescue, which until now have remained unexplained. (Collapse after rescue.)" Those are the deaths which our Doctors observed.
They observed that when death occurred, the rigor suddenly ceased. I myself never observed that, I was never present on such occasions.
Q. Let us go to the next paragraph, Doctor, here is the most preposterous and obvious passage. This is the beginning of the next paragraph, No. 43 of the original, page 11 of the document and page 89 of the document book. This states as follows:
"With a drop of the rectal temperature to 31 degrees, a clouding of consciousness occurs, which passes to a deep cold-induced anesthesia if the decline reaches below 30 degrees."
Now, Doctor, to have made this observation it would have been next to impossible during an air sea rescue operation; wouldn't it?
A. No, not at all.
Q. Well now in the first place to measure the rectal temperature of a man bobbing in the high seas would be quite a job, wouldn't it?
A. No, not at all. That was something that was done very frequently.
Q. What did you do, Doctor? Did you just bo by the man floating in the sea in a rescue boat, come up to him and instead of throwing him a life line, throw him a thermometer and ask him to place it in his rectum?
A. No, but the temperature was taken after the people were in the life boat. I have already said that the rescue boats were big motor boats with covered cabins.
Q. Now, Doctor, just a moment, just a moment. In taking the man in the life boat to perform this; what did you do after this, put him in the life boat and then throw him back in the water?
A. That is an interpretation of yours, which does not correspond to real conditions. What we have here is that when the temperature drops to below 30 degrees there can be a cold anesthesia and one need not be an expert on cold to know this. Any doctor will recognize, that there are two possible explanations. One is that there were observations on various people, it does not say that these observations were all made on the same man. Secondly, an even more possible solution is that when one person was rescued and a temperature of 30 degrees was taken and his temperature continued to fall while he was in the boat, that is the new fact which has been discussed by American as well as German experts during this war and that unless one applies warmth to the rescued people immediately but simply covers him, as is done in the life boat, the temperature continues to fall. One has no need to put the person back in the ice water.
Q. I am glad that you have a definite opinion on that Doctor. Let us look further on down on this page, which will be on the next page of the document book, page 43. This is the top paragraph. The next sentence therein, it states:
"It is certain that the rapidity of the drop of temperature increases when the neck and occiput are washed by water." Do you see it?
A. Yes, I see it.
Q. It would take pretty careful observations from a boat, a rescue boat, to find that out on a man floating in the sea, but it would be pretty easy to do it on a man floating in a tub at the experimental station in Dachau; would it not? Wouldn't you have to follow him around in the boat pretty much to see how much of his neck and occiput was washed by the water?
A. This observations means that in the German Luftwaffe, as well as in the German Navy, there were various models of life preservers. One model was constructed in such a way that the person had the back of his head and the back of his neck out of the water, that is the back of his neck was protected. The other model was constructed in such a way that the back of the neck was not protected. Nothing was more simple to see what happened to the people wearing one model compared to people wearing the other model.
Besides, I can point out that Mr. Rascher, after Holzloehner's lecture, made a remark in that direction saying that experiments had been carried out on this subject but according to what Mr. Rascher said at that time and what he wrote, they were completely harmless. He writes that the cooling of the back of the neck alone, even over a number of hours, causes only a slight change of body temperature up to 1 degree Celsius. According to what Rascher reported, it was a very slight result for this experiment and one must assume that Holzloehner's remarks had refer to his actual experience in sea-rescue service.
Q. Well, let us go to the passage on page 44 of the original document, page 14 of the translation. This is on page 93 of the document book. You note here the following language in the first paragraph on that page. The sentence, which is seven lines down from the top, reads as follows:
"The good results with quick warming obtained in experiments with animals encouraged a corresponding procedure with human beings. These experiments showed that baths with a water temperature of 40 degrees not only accelerate the return to normal temperature and absorb the sudden dangerous falls of temperature after rescue, but may also be of life-saving effect should the heartbeats begin to stop.
Now in this pointed discussion, the author was even far more outspoken, was he not, which I understand was an abbreviated and expurgated edition of what he actually said at the meeting; is that right? What did he say at the meeting to elaborate on this point in the corresponding procedure on human beings to be used, inasmuch as they found such good results on their work on animals?
A. I believe that is best shown by the fact that Mr. Rascher had an order from Himmler to present the results of the experiment as a top secret matter. What Holzloehner said about the experiments as I said in my direct examination, what I took as referring to experiments, was this paragraph here where it said expressly that no danger was ever observed to persons treated in this way. As for the other experiments concerning which Rascher sent a report to Himmler and which report to Himmler is signed by Holzloehner and Rascher and Finke, there was said nothing at Nurnberg, nor did Holzloehner, Finke or Rascher say anything about it. Not only I but ninety other people heard it and most of the others are at liberty today and some of them have very high positions.
Q. Well now let us turn to another section of this report, which is on page 43 of the original, page 12 of the -- this will be found on page 90 of the document book 3, the passage contained in the second paragraph from the top, five lines down, beginning in the middle of the paragraph and the middle of the sentence line, wherein I will quote, wherefrom I will quote:
"Noticeable and important is a great increase in viscosity of up to 7.8. This increase appears very early, that is, already with a body temperature of 35 degrees. These increases are greater than those found in animal experiments. With dogs for instance, an increase of more than 6.2 was never observed under corresponding circumstances."
Now, Dr. Becker-Freyseng, in order to determine how high the viscosity of the blood can be, wouldn't it take a considerable amount of measuring?
A. No, I don't know how Holzloehner did it.
Q. Well now, doctor, that would test ever your ingenuity, you are a pretty capable fellow, to take one sample large enough to determine the viscosity of the blood from a man floating in the ocean next to a boat, let alone sufficient for measurements -
A. The measurements would not have to be made on a man swimming beside the boat. Either a small amount of blood is taken from a man who has been brought into the boat or else the blood Q. Well you do not accomplish this from your experiment of you do not accomplish what you are looking for, do you?
You did not find out the necessary information from that manner, did you, if you just pulled him in, you can't be certain how it reacts, you have to determine how an animal rescued would react, in comparison to the reaction of a human being. You have to have some sort of comparison. Isn't that what Holzloehner, Finke and Rascher did at Dachau?
A. I never heard anything about that, but the purpose of Holzloehner's work at Dachau, let me point out the next sentence which reads: "With dogs, for instance, an increase of more than 6.2. was never observed under corresponding circumstances." I am convinced that Mr. Holzloehner made his careful tests with animals and that with human beings he carried out merely a few practical tests and I am convinced that the measurement of viscosity is very simple even in practice. In my direct examination I discussed this point. I referred to the report of Captain or Major Mazer, who performed almost exactly the same tests in the American sea rescue service, blood concentration tests, and in effect found out exactly the same thing.
Q. Well, doctor, let's turn to another section here, this is page 15 of the report under discussion, note the name Rascher. Here Rascher states in this paragraph, which is page 93 of the document book, and I quote; the sentence beginning with: "After taking alcohol, body temperature decreases at a quicker pace." Does the interpreter have that? "After taking daxtropur the decrease is slower than with the experiments in both sober and alcoholic condition. Hot infusions, (10% dextro-solution, physiolog, table salt-solution, tutofusin, physiolog. Table salt solution with pancortex) were successful only for a time." Now from reading that doctor, do you mean to say that you would issue alcohol to airmen just on the chance they might fall in the sea so that you could make comparisons with other airmen who hadn't taken alcohol?
A. I should like to point out something and I am quite willing to bring proof of this too. In the emergency equipment of the Luftwaffe, good whiskey.
Q. Then when you pulled a man in from the water did you ask each man if he had taken a drink yet?
A. Yes, in many cases we would ask that because the doctors held the point of view that alcohol is harmful in such cases. From 1943 approximately on the alcohol was removed from the emergency equipment against the resistance of non-medical men. I am quite willing to bring proof of this too.
Q. Now assume for a moment, just assume for the moment hypothetically you were working with Rascher, Holzloehner and Finke, and this report was the results of your work, would you be willing to assume full responsibility for everything contained in Holzloehner's report as being completely on the level, nothing criminal about it. I think you are being a bit naive, doctor, here is Lutz who came here and testified it was obvious just what the report meant.
DR. TIPP: Mr. President, in the direct examination Mr. Hardy reproached me with spending too much time on a subject. I went into too much detail with these questions, he said. How he is going into them again. I have not objected but now Mr. Hardy comes with a completely hypothetical question. He, as well as the Tribunal and the defendant know that this is not true. I believe in answering this question "what would have happened if" -- is a purely hypothetical question and will not get us anywhere. I should like to object to this question as completely irrelevant.
MR. HARDY: Having learned a great deal during the course of this trial, I have just finished a subject and will go on to something else.
THE PRESIDENT: Please proceed.
MR. HARDY:
Q. Doctor, let's turn to page 127 of the document book, which is Exhibit 106, document No. 268. This is a document which originated from Anthony's office, which is signed by Professor Hippke. Somebody wrote that, somebody in Anthony's office must have written it or it wouldn't have Anthony's code letter on it, because as you say Hippke did most of his work without referring to Anthony if he chose to do it. Now this letter reads as follows:
A. I am sorry. I never said that. I said that Hippke sometimes failed to consult the referat but I never said in most of his work.
Q. Do you think now, in as much as the code letters appear, that in connection with this document Hippke referred it to the referat?
A. I not only believe Hippke referred the letter to the referat but I think this letter was worked on in the referat. I myself did not work on it. I saw it here for the first time.
Q. Let's read it, doctor, quote:
"The experiments conducted in Dachau concerning protective measures against the effects of freezing on the human body by immersion in cold water have lead to results of practical use. They were conducted by Stabsarzt of the Luftwaffe Professor Dr. Holzloehner, Dr. Finke and Dr. Rascher in cooperation with the SS, and are now finished. The results was reported upon by those who worked on them during a conference on medical problems arising from distress at sea and winter hardships on 26 and 27 October 1942 at Nurnberg. The detailed report on the conference is at present in state of preparation.
"I think you most gratefully for the great assistance that cooperation of the SS has meant for us in conducting the experiments, and beg you to express our thanks too, to the commander of the Dachau camp.
Heil Hitler Prof.
Dr. Hippke."
Now whatever impression was given to the listeners at the Nurnberg conference after hearing the report, it is a fact, is it not, that the reports were based on experiments upon human beings at the Dachau concentration camp and here is the "Thank you" note from Hippke?
A. In my direct examination I have already said that I held the opinion from the very beginning that Holzloehner's report was just a compilation and that in the course of the compilation he induced the results of the Dachau experiments in his report. I never doubted it.
Q. Well, Dr. Lutz had no difficulty in ascertaining that either, did he?
A Let me refer to three things: first of all Lutz himself worked on the cold question; second he worked in the very institute where considerable work was done on the same question; third, according to what he said, he knew Mr. Rascher much better than I did. If he read something else from Holzloehner's report and Rascher's remark than I did I am not surprised.
Q Of course, you can recall that Dr. Lutz maintained in the course of his examination here that an average medical man could have ascertained the same thing, didn't he say that?
A I don't understand your question.
Q Didn't Dr. Lutz say here that any physician or medical man, regardless of his specialty, that is, he didn't necessarily have to be a specialist in shock from exposure to cold, could have been any man, if he had slight knowledge of medicine could ascertain from the reports that were heard at the October meeting that the experiments were made on human beings and were not just air rescue practical tests?
A No, Dr. Lutz did not say that. In the course of my direct examination I repeated exactly what Lutz said. He said he believed it was clear to most people that is to say, at least that it was not quite clearly expressed and that was his own personal opinion. What he realized might not apply to other people.
Q Let us turn to the yellow jaundice complex, doctor. This is Document NO-137 which is on page 6 of Document Book 8.
A Yes, I have it.
Q Well, now we note here under 1 - the subject is yellow fever vaccines and we find there three references to the code letters of the office of Anthony. Is that correct? We see this #55 on three occasions there.
A I am sorry, under yellow fever vaccine, is that what you mean?
Q Under arabic number 1 -
A Yes, you only see two numbers which do refer to referat. The first says 55, etc. 2 II B and then 55/14 - the rest is missing. I don't know what the original says.
Q Those references, be there one, two, or three - refer to Anthony's office, is that right? It is very simple, answer it. Do they or don't they?
A If I have to say yes or no I will say no. They mean merely that there is a research assignment so that if the files are looked for in the office of the Medical Inspectorate the registry people know where to look - under file #55.
Q Let's straighten this out. What is #55? What does it mean?
A In the correspondence of the German Wehrmacht there was a so-called Wehrmacht file plan.
Q Let's forget that a moment. What do numbers 55 mean. You can answer in three words. You have answered it in direct examination. I want to hear it again. I don't remember what you said. Doesn't 55 2 II B refer to the office of Anthony?
A No. This No. 55 you will find in correspondence of the entire Luftwaffe and the entire German Wehrmacht where Anthony means nothing at all.....
Q 2 II B refers to Anthony's office, doesn't it?
DR. TIPP: Mr. President, I am afraid I must object to this type of questioning by Mr. Hardy. He has interrupted the witness three times now. If Mr. Hardy will let Doctor Becker-Freyseng explain everything will be clear. I don't want to attack Mr. Hardy personally by any means but I think this continual interruption does not serve the cause.
MR. HARDY: Since the objection has been raised, Your Honors, I will instruct the Tribunal to instruct the witness to answer my question what does 2 II B mean? He has testified on direct examination that they mean Anthony's office. He is here under oath and now he says they do not mean Anthony's office and I wish to clear up the confusion.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for Prosecution asked the witness what the number 55 meant and interrupted the witness before he answered by asking what the letters 2 II B mean. Will counsel again propound his question to the witness?
BY MR. HARDY:
Q What is the code initial 2 II B refer to, doctor?
A That is the registration abbreviation for the referat Aviation Medicine.
Q And at that time 7 October 1943 you were assistant referent?
A Yes.
Q And #1 in this document refers to yellow fever vaccine?
A Yes.
Q And "2" in this document refers to spotted fever vaccine?
A Yes.
Q And the code letters 2 II B appear there?
A Yes, that is true.
Q And so on down through the document?
A Yes, that is true.
Q That is all I have in that complex, Your Honor. However, I have one request to make of the Tribunal before we adjourn today. Dr. Tipp has requested that he be permitted to see the defendant BeckerFreyseng,this evening. I have agreed that he could see BeckerFreyseng, of course adhering to legal ethics and not making any reference to the questions being considered in the course of this cross-examination. Dr. Steinbauer has a problem to take up with the Tribunal before adjournment.
DR. STEINBAUER (For the Defendant Beiglboeck): Mr. President, the court has approved for me a witness named Dr. Rolf Jaeger. This witness has been brought to Nurnberg. This morning the General Secretary's office, Mr. Wartena, told me that Dr. Jaeger is the head of a British Hospital in Graz and the British Military Government in Austria have urgently asked to have him returned. He has to be taken back Thursday morning and I should like permission to call this witness tomorrow when the examination of Becker-Freyseng is concluded. Mr. Hardy, to whom I have told this, thought I should submit an affidavit.
I would be very glad to fulfill Hr. Hardy's wish but could not do so; I merely promise that I will be very brief. If he will do the same thing we will gain what we would otherwise have lost.
THE PRESIDENT: Has counsel for Prosecution any objection to calling this witness at the closing of the testimony of the defendant BeckerFreyseng?
MR. HARDY: On the statement of defense counsel, Your Honor, it appears to be that in as much as this witness will only testify as to the rank and organization within which the defendant Beiglboeck was stationed or where his orders came from I don't think it necessary to take up the time of the Tribunal. I understand the witness has nothing to add concerning the sea water experiments of any of the plans or enterprises connected therewith. He will merely testify as to superior orders of Beiglboeck and I feel for my part that an affidavit could accomplish that object without taking up the time of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand from defense counsel that defense counsel desires to put the witness on the stand and not file an affidavit of the witness, is that correct?
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will be heard after the close of the testimony of defendant Becker-Freyseng tomorrow.
The Tribunal will be in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is now in recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, German, on 28 May 1947, 0930, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.
Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you ascertain if the defendants are present in the court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all defendants are present in the court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note for the record the presence of all the defendants in court.
Counsel may proceed.
HERMANN BECKER-FREYSENG - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. HARDY:
Q. May it please the Tribunal. Dr. Becker-Freyseng, yesterday, during the course of cross examination, I asked you whether or not you had ever performed experiments in high-altitude research above 12,000 meters and I recall that you answered that you had done that type of research yourself up to 15,000 meters.
A. I said that I performed a very few, perhaps one or two experiments on myself. Generally, however, my work was up to 12,000 meters. That was the work in 1945 and 1946.
Q. Now, this work wherein you went to 15,000 meters, was that also in 1945 and '46?
A. No, that was before, that was during the war.
Q. When?
A. There were some orientation experiments which I performed, perhaps '42 of '43 only to learn about these things by myself. There was not any extensive research, just a few experiments for my own orientation.
Q. Had anyone else to your knowledge performed or experimented above 12,000 at that time or prior to 1942?
A. Yes, quite a few people.
Q. Who?
A. Dr. Ulrich Luft and Dr. Hans Georg Klamann, at the Aviation Research Medical Institute, and Dr. Benzinger and his people in Rechlin. The highest altitude reached that I knew of was a little over 19,000 meters. This was reached by Hans Erich Halbach in a self experiment. He is now living in Prien in the Chiemsee. He worked for Dr. Benzinger.
Q. Do you know how many times experiments have been conducted wherein altitudes over 15,000 meters were reached? Approximately, doctor. Just a rough estimate.
A. Certainly 50 to 60 experiments.
Q. Over 15,000?
A. Yes, over 15,000 meters.
Q. Was all that work conducted prior to the experiments in Dachau, in other words, prior to February 1942?
A. Part was before the Dachau experiments and part was after the Dachau experiments.
Q. Would you have any way of telling us just how much was done before the Dachau experiments in this particular field, in altitudes higher than 15,000 meters?
A. Unfortunately, I am in no position to do so, but I can tell you who can give you very exact information. These men are all in the American service -- Dr. Hans Goerg Klamann, Dr. Luft and Dr. Benzinger. I myself did not carry out this specific type of work myself, and I did not work on it in the referat.
Unfortunately, I am unable to answer your question. I can only refer you to the correct source.
Q. Well, now, in these experiments that were conducted in the altitudes higher than 15,000 meters, what field of research was that concerned with? Was that with explosive decompression, slow decent, or what phase of high-altitude research, do you know?
A. Yes, part of them explosive decompression expression experiments and part of them experiments such as were described here, experiments on rescue from high altitude.
Q. Now these experiments that we are referring to, those concerned with altitudes above 15,000 meters, were the results of those experiments published so that all students of aviation medicine could study them?
A. Yes, quite a number of results of experiments are available which I myself saw in the Aerometrical Center in Heidelberg. Some of them were published in the Journal for Aviation Medicine, and some of them were just official reports
JUDGE SEBRING: Mr. Hardy, will you ascertain from the witness when those reports were published?
BY MR. HARDY:
Q. Witness, will you kindly tell the Tribunal when the reports concerning the experiments above 15,000 meters, which took place prior to 1942, February 1942, when and where were they published?
A. I cannot say exactly. They were published in 1941-1942, approximately, but I cannot give an exact date. I had nothing to do with the publication of these reports but the reports are available. They are at the Aero Medical Center in Heidelberg. The date can be checked.
Q. Then I presume that the experiments that were conducted after February 1942 in the same field were also published.
A. Yes, I am sure they were published, too.
Q. And was the work conducted by yourself and Ruff and your colleagues at the Aero Medical Center at Heidelberg after the cessation of hostilities? Were they published in this work or were they merely put in United States Army publications?
A. A very small portion had a report published. At least, Dr. Gaver informed me to that effect, but the rest of the experiments were interrupted before they were completed so we had not come to any final conclusions that could have been published but one small paper is said to have been published.
BY JUDGE SEBRING:
Q. Witness, who had access to those early reports that you say were published concerning experiments prior to 1942?
A. Do you mean, Your Honor, now or to whom they were available at that time?
Q. To whom they were available immediately after the date of publication.
A. Primarily, aviation medicine institutes and research workers; also the consequences resulting, for technique, were available to the technical agencies.