On the witness stand Kogon did not maintain this, and what is your opinion?
A I can only repeat that I was not responsible for research section V of Professor von Kennel nor for any alleged research section under the Reichsarzt, that I had no responsibility in those connections.
Q With the exception of your relation to the supply of experimental animals, you had nothing to do with this experimental stationed, did you?
A No, I cannot remember anything else.
Q Also not with incendiary bomb experiments?
A No.
DR. BOEHM: Explaining this department V, in connection with this I submit this document which is an affidavit by Dr. Kimmig, HP-8 and also HP-9, which is an affidavit by Professor von Kennel. Both of these documents are on page 22 and 24 of the document book Poppendick. I offer them as Poppendick Exhibits No. 7 and 8, and I would like to read these documents. Poppendick Exhibit No. 7, I quote:-
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor, pardon me for interrupting. I have no objections to these two affidavits, but I wish to request the Secretary-General to bring to court tomorrow the original exhibits of Document numbers NO-579, NO-582 and NO-1300.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary-General will note the request of the Counsel for the Prosecution.
MR. HARDY: Those are the original exhibits.
THE PRESIDENT: The original exhibits or the original documents?
MR. HARDY: The original documents.
THE PRESIDENT: The original documents to court to morrow morning.
DR. BOEHM: I shall now read Exhibit Poppendick No. 7:
"I was an employee at the Schering Works A. G. in Berlin-Charlottenburg since the year 1935 and was at the same time a co-worker of Professor von Kennel who was at that time Senior Physician (Oberarzt) at the Municipal Hospital Schwabing, Munich. Professor von Kennel worked on sulfonamide research, and I worked under him as a chemical co-worker. Medical science owes to him the research of the sulfadiozole group whose most efficacious compound was Globucid which was produced by the Schering Works.
"From 1937 until 1943 Professor von Kennel was director of the University Clinic for Skin and Venereal Diseases in Kiel and after that in Leipzig in the same capacity.
"He finally directed in Leipzig a chemo-therapeutic department called Research Department V (not Roman V but "V") which was financially supported by the SS. He worked for economic independence from industry and intended his research institute to be taken over the state. He had the assurance of the SS that he would remain a completely free and independent research worker. He accordingly directed his research department V -- for von Kennel -- on his own responsibility. In scientific matters even the Reich Physician-SS and Police Dr. Grawitz could give him no orders, nor did he do so.
"There is no doubt that the chief of the personal office of the Reich Physician-SS and Police, Helmut Poppendick, was not responsible for the activities of this research department V. I know that Professor von Kennel received animals for experiments, white mice, for his laboratory in Leipzig from Buchenwald, and that there was an exchange of correspondence regarding this.
I remember a talk with Professor von Kennel in the course of which we discussed the hormone research of a Danish SS physician. This doctor who worked on the implantation of hormone crystals never worked with Professor von Kennel or his research department V.
"The research department of Professor von Kennel never as far as I know had anything to do with experiments on typhus and incendiary bombs; the sole purpose of this department was research on sulfonamides and during the last few years of the War research on penicillin."
I shall also read Document Exhibit No. 8:
"I, Professor Dr. Med. Josef von Kennel, born 9 August 1897 in Munich, residence: Bad Homburg vor der Hoehe, Gymnasiumstrasse 14, have been advised that I will be liable to punishment if I make a false affidavit. I declare under oath that my statements are true and were made in order to be submitted as evidence to Military Tribunal I in the Palace of Justice in Nurnberg, Germany.
"After World War I, I studied medicine. Having finished my specialized studies as a specialist on skin and venereal diseases, I occupied myself already at an early date with chemotherapeutic research. In 1928 I worked with Dr. Feldt of the Schering Works A. G., Berlin, on the gold preparation Solganal-B-oleosum. In 1932 I received for this work my degree of doctor habil. The beginning of my research work V (von Kennel) dates back to this time. At that time I renounced all personal financial participation in the large-scale manufacture of the above-named preparation by the firm of Schering, rather I contented myself with a chemist and an assistant for my research work.
My first chemist in my research department V was Dr. Michael, a Jew, who was married to an English woman. In 1933 I helped him to emigrate to England. My next chemical collaborator was Dr. Kimmig. In 1937 I became ordinary professor at the University of Kiel and director of the University dermatology clinic. The invention of the sulfonamide Globucid by Kimmig and me dates back to that time, the production of which by the firm of Schering has only now been authorized again by the English occupation authorities for the Schering firm.
"Together with Kimmig and Lemke there appeared the first German work on penicillin in the Clinical Weekly (Klinische Wochenschrift) (1942/1943). With the support of the firm of Schering, the research department V's personnel had meanwhile increased greatly. I had my own research account V for the authorized research expenditures.
"In 1943 I was summoned by letter to report to the medical office of the Waffen-SS. I was asked there to place myself at the disposal of the Waffen-SS as consultant specialist for venereal diseases with chemotherapy. After some objections on my part, I finally agreed after I had been expressly assured of my absolute civilian independence. For my work I was promised financial support especially in the form of chemicals.
"On 1 April 1943 I received a summons to the University of Leipzig and could move my Kiel research department there. By financial and material support from the Waffen-SS we were able to keep the clinic, which was heavily damaged by bombs, in a workable condition. In 1943 I received the honorary rank of Sturmbannfuehrer in the Waffen-SS in common with the other consultant physicians of other troop units. Before this I had no connection with any organization of the NSDAP, apart from my membership from 1933 on (without office).
"An excerpt from the book 'The SS State' (Der SS-Staat) by Eugen Kogon, as well as his testimony before Military Tribunal I regarding the experimental station in Leipzig, has been submitted to me, and from my own knowledge I can state the following thereto:
"In Leipzig there was no experimental station Roman 'V'. There was only a research department V (Vonkennel), which had gone with me from Munich via Kiel to Leipzig and which was financially supported by the firm of Schering in respect of my inventions.
"Only in 1943 did this research department receive certain financial and material assistance from the Waffen SS as well. This research department was exclusively under my orders. It was a purely civilian university institution. Not one single worker was a member of the SS. In fact, I employed a Catholic priest as my private secretary whom the Gestapo intended to send to Buchenwald, and an unlicensed half-Jewish woman doctor was my private assistant.
"The research department V (Vonkennel) was exclusively concerned with chemotherapeutic problems (sulfonamides, penicillin, lice powder, etc.). All the works of this research department were published in official medical weeklies under the heading 'By the Working Community of the Leipzig, or Kiel, Dermatology Clinic, director: Professor Vonkennel'.
"This department never had anything to do with the hormone experiments of Dr. Vaernet, with typhus, or with experiments concerning burns. I personally only once heard of Dr. Vaernet, that he was in Berlin seeking the cooperation of the pharmaceutical industry. The experiments mentioned in the book of Dr. Kogon are entirely unknown to me.
"Viewed from a medical expert's point of view, the implantation of synthetic hormones in the form of crystals or tablets into the abdominal cover represents an internationally recognized method which has already proved effective.
"Dr. Grawitz, the Reich Physician SS and Police, visited my clinic only once, after the heavy air raid in December 1944. I received from him no directives whatsoever in scientific respects or in regard to working methods.
"Mr. Poppendick had nothing whatever to do with my research department, nor did he ever try to interfere in themes or methods.
"The assertion made in Dr. Kogon's book that Poppendick was authorized to sign for the experimental department is entirely unfounded."
That is the end of my quotation. The affidavit is signed and certified, and therefore correct.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has received from Captain Charles J. Roska, Medical Corps, a written statement that the defendant Oberheuser should be excused from attendance at this afternoon's session. This has been accomplished and the certificate will be filed for the record.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 9 April 1947 at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 9 April 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Beals presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I.
Military Tribunal I is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court room.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Marshal, you ascertain if the defendants are all present in the court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please your Honor, all defendants are present with the exception of the Defendant Oberheuser, absent due to illness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal having received a certificate from the prison doctor to the effect that Defendant Oberheuser is unable to appear in court today, she will be excused from attendance for this day, it appearing that her interests will not be jeopardized by her absence.
The Secretary-General will file the certificate from the prison physician.
Counsel may proceed.
HELMUT POPPENDICK - Resumed
DR. BOEHM (Counsel for the Defendant Poppendick): Mr. President, I should like to continue in my interrogation of the witness Poppendick.
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. BOEHM:
Q Regarding the incendiary bomb experiments on 5 January 1944, in Ding's diary, No 265, Prosecution Exhibit 12, page 48 in the English Document Book entry according to which the minutes of these experiment were sent to the Reichsarzt-SS to be forwarded to the Madausworks. The witness Kogon believed that he read that these reports went to you.
Did you ever see such a report?
A No, at least I cannot recall ever having seen such a report with pictures. I certainly should have noticed the pictures.
Q. Was it customary for experimental reports to be sent to you?
A No, such reports were sent direct to the Reichs physician. Correspondence with staff members in such matters was principally forbidden. If despite that such a case did arise, namely, if someone because he didn't know any better sent such a report to someone who shouldn't receive it, then the report would nevertheless still have gone to the Reichs physician.
Q Did you know the Madaus Works?
AAs I have already said, I knew the name only from medical periodicals.
Q Do you know Dr. Koch?
A No.
DR. BOEHM: In connection with this question, I shall subsequently submit Dr. Koch's affidavit which arrived within the past days as evidence for Dr. Mrugowsky, in which Dr. Koch says that he did not know Poppendick that no correspondence was sent through Poppendick to him, or to the Madaus Works.
BY DR. BOEHM:
Q Did you know the Higher SS and Police Leader Woyrsch who was stationed in Dresden?
A I only knew his name.
Q Did you attend any conferences at which there was discussion of experiments with the drug R 17?
A No.
Q Do you know the drug R 17 at all?
A No, I did not know about it until this trial.
Q Did you have anything to do with the taking of the contents of the incendiary bombs Buchenwald or did you know of this?
A No, not that either.
Q In other words, you had no connection with the planning or direction of incendiary experiments described by the prosecution nor were you the competent expert whose job it was to concern himself with this whole question?
A No.
DR. BOEHM: I submit now HPO 7, an affidavit of Dr. Dirchert, in this connection, which is on page 18 of the document Poppendick book. I submit it as Poppendick Exhibit No. 9. At the moment I shall road point 2 of this affidavit. I quote:
2. Treatment of phosphorus burns with "R 17".:
The dropping of phosphorus incendiary bombs made it necessary to find the appropriate means for its treatment. Since the usual copper sulfate solution did not show satisfactory results, the firm of Dr. Madaus of Dresden sought another medium to dissolve phosphorus. They found this in a liquid which they manufactured and called "R 17" (carbon tetrachloride). The effectiveness of R 17 was proved by the firm of Dr. Madaus through the experiments on rabbits.
After those rabbit experiments were concluded Dr. Madaus asked the Higher SS and Police Leader v. Woyrsch of Dresden to watch these experiments. Since my emergency office was at the premises of Gruppenfuehrer v. Woyrsch, he asked me to come along to the firm of Madaus in my capacity as a physician and to observe these experiments. That was in the fall of 1943. In accordance with the request of Gruppenfuehrer v. Woyrsch and the firm of Madaus, I reported to the Reich Physician SS and Police on the results in the treatment of phosphorus burns found by the firm of Madaus; I suggested to him to include the product R 17 in the first-aid kits for air-raid precautions. Grawitz promised an investigation. For this purpose, some time later, he sent Dr. Ding, in his capacity as hygienist, to Dresden and ordered me to arrange for Ding to go to the Madaus firm and see the results with the drug R 17 obtained by that firm. I did so. Ding came to Dresden and in my presence watched the experiments mentioned.
He declared later that he would investigate the efficacy of that preparation, also on rabbits, in Buchenwald, upon orders of the Reich Physician SS. He asked that the firm Madaus should place the preparation R 17 at his disposal. Immediately after the inspection of the firm of Madaus he left Dresden again.
It is also know to me that Dr. Ding had requested the office of the Higher SS and Police Leader to supply him with the contents of an English incendiary bomb; this request was, as far as I know, filled by the Police President of Leipzig. Dr. Ding sent for the drug and the incendiary bomb.
It is also known to me that Ding made a report about his experiments; I know this, because Ding inquired several times at my office in Dresden, both in writing and by telephone, whether the report was there, since he could not find it. It was supposed to be a report with illustrations. Whether the report went through my office, I do not know, as I used to be in Dresden only one day each week. At the time when Ding was looking for the report, it was not in my office. I presume therefore that he sent it directly to the firm of Madaus, since they were interested in his investigations.
"As I had heard nothing for some time from the Reich Physician, as to whether R 17 was to be included in first-aid kits for airraid precautions, I asked the Reich Physician about it. He explained to me that the preparation would not be introduced, since it merely dissolved the phosphorus but did not directly help in the healing of the burns. Another source, however, was producing a preparation which combined both these qualities, and this one was to be introduced."
The prosecution in the course of its case mentioned the method of treatment of the Danish physician Dr. Vaernet, who carried out transplantations on homosexuals and people who were prematurely old; what do you know about this?
A I heard once that Dr. Vaernet was working in Prague in a pharmaceutical factory on the technical development of a hormone pill. This tablet had a certain shape and he called it artificial gland.
Q In this connection I submit the Baier Affidavit, Document HPO 12, page 33 of the Document Book Poppendick, it will be Poppendick Exhibit 10. I quote from the third paragraph:
"At Himmler's order Dr. Vaernet was given a suitable laboratory in the Heilmittel-G.m.b.H. in Prague, which was subordinate to the WVHA. Dr. Vaernet worked there in Prague in the year 1944.
"Equipment and personnel were placed at his disposal. As we know, Dr. Vaernet is said to have worked as an independent scientist on the development of the artificial gland, which had been patented. He was convinced that his scientific method would be successful and worked continuously on it.
"As far as I remember, Dr. Vaernet was said to have had successful results on his Danish private patients in his treatment with the artificial gland, which was perhaps not technically perfected.
"I, myself, saw the so-called artificial gland during a visit in Prague. It was a small tablet, in the shape of a cylinder, only a few millimeters thick, its diameter I estimate, was no more than 1 cm. The outer edge was surrounded by a silvery layer.
"Vaernet told us that these tablets were to take the place of numerous hormone injections, because after implantation in the body they were assimilated slowly and evenly.
"We were convinced of the harmlessness of this tablet, particularly since we knew that such implantations of hormone crystals were customary in medical science."
Did you speak with Dr. Vaernet?
A I met Dr. Vaernet once in Grawitz' ante-room while he was waiting there, he introduced himself to me and we spoke together. I remember that we spoke about his method, and he said that he had already employed this method in Denmark on a number of private patients with very good success. If I recall correctly, Dr. Vaernet wanted to have a pure hormone substance for his technical work, which was difficult at that time to obtain.
Q The prosecution has put in Document 1300, Exhibit 289, which you signed and which concerns Dr. Vaernet's activities; this letter asks Dr. Ding to place laboratory facilities at Vaernet's disposal if it should become necessary; how does it happen that you signed this letter?
A This, as I remember, is a case similar to the one of which I spoke yesterday; namely where Grawitz dictated the letter and told the secretary he did not want to wait to sign it or I should do so. I read the letter here, and this is not my style of letter-writing. In connection with such an experiment as Vaernet was carrying on, I would not have used the words "humane experiments". I would use the word "implantation" and the vocabulary in the letter is not mine in general. In addition I was not familiar with the connections mentioned in it.
Q This letter was addressed to Ding although his name was Schuler?
A I assume that the secretary asked what the heading was to be and since I did not know that Ding was already named Schuler I said Ding.
Q How does it happen that the letter is addressed to the Concentration Camp Buchenwald and not to the Typhus and Virus Research Institute at Buchenwald, which would have been more correct?
A I did not know anything more precisely about Ding's address at Buchenwald; I did not know the name of the Institute at Buchenwald and consequently I just had it addressed to the Concentration Camp at Buchenwald, and I knew that it would arrive.
Q Do you know whether Ding had a further correspondence with the Reichs Physician in this matter, which you found out about?
A I cannot recall ever having seen such a letter, but I think it is quite possible that Ding answered this letter and stated that Vaernet could make use of the laboratory facilities at Buchenwald.
Q Kogon testified that Ding wrote a letter to you, in which he did not report in detail about experimental results, he did give you general information about the activities of Vaernet; did you receive such a letter?
AAs I remember neither from Vaernet, nor from any one else, nor from Grawitz, did I see such a matter.
Q Kogon said that Vaernet used his method on at least fifteen persons, he said further that Vaernet's treatment was the partial cause for two deaths; did you know anything about that?
A No, I do not know of fifteen persons nor do I know how many people he had applied his method to; and this harmless method could certainly not have led to fatalities, I consider that out of the question.
Q In the letter to Ding there is mention of Vaernet wanting to carry out preliminary examinations on persons for which he used Ding's laboratory; the prosecution speaks of preliminary operations without ever having any proof of that; what did you imagine was meant by preliminary examinations?
A I certainly did not imagine that these were any sort of surgical operations; in such a harmless operation as this any surgical work would have been altogether unnecessary.
I can only imagine that these were blood or urine analyses to test the hormone contents, or a similar analysis to that which are frequently carried out in clinics or laboratories. Moreover Dr. Horn recently testified here that castrated persons were also available here and that these, according to the law, were criminals who had been castrated for immoral offenses legally.
Q In this letter that you signed, there was mention that further details about Vaernet's work had been sent to the camp physician, did you see this documentation?
A What this documentation was I do not know, but I did see a collection by Vaernet, a collection of literature, and of the solubility of the tablets with mathematical calculations.
Q Dr. Kirchert's affidavit, which has already been submitted, which is HPO 7; Poppendick Exhibit No. 9; reports on this matter of Vaernet's documentation and it is my intention now to read this Document regarding Vaernet's method:
1) Re. Dr. Vaernet's method of treatment:
"Grawitz and Kaltenbrunner had talked about the possibilities of applying the Vaernet hormone preparation and submitted suggestions thereon to the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler. One of these suggestions was to sell that preparation abroad on the black market and thus to obtain foreign currency. It was also proposed to promise these preparations to foreign agents as a reward for useful information. So far as I know, these suggestions were rejected by Himmler.
"After that had happened Grawitz gave me the Vaernet file for orientation so that I would be informed in case Kaltenbrunner should raise any queries.
"I was at the time in charge of the medical care of the members of the Reich Security Main Office.
"From studying the file, I gathered the following, as far as I still remember:
"Dr. Vaernet, a Danish physician, had used a hormone gland preparation, produced by him, with a large number of his Danish private patients. Quite a number of cases were described in the file, which showed the excellent result of this preparation. It was intended for: impotence, geriatric diseases, and finally homosexuality. The gland itself was planted beneath the abdominal skin, a completely harmless operation, and was supposed to be effective for about one year. After a period of one year, a new gland would have to be implanted.
"Grawitz told me when he gave me the file that Dr. Vaernet was going to place his process at the disposal of German medical authorities. Nothing is known to me personally about an application of this treatment in Germany.
"In the file were also mathematical calculations about the size and the type of cover of the gland in connection with the period of its absorption in the human body.
"After I had read the file I made a note to that effect returned the file to Grawitz. A discussion with Kaltenbrunner did not materialize."
Q What is your attitude towards these so-called experiments of Vaernet, were these experiments or simply methods of treatment?
A They weren't experiments. In contradistinction the German "Versuch" is a much broader term than the German word "experiment." The word "Versuch" is used not only in the sense here as the prosecution uses it as the experiments, but it is used daily in every hospital and every clinic. When any method of treatment in the Charitee doesn't lead to success then Dr. His said, now we will try an experiment with such and such a method." In other words, the word "Versuch" does not have the same connotation as the word "Experiment" used literally. And of course in this connection professor Rostock, as an expert, testified about the crystal implantation, and recently Dr. Horn made statements on this subject, who was an eye witness of this treatment, and both said it was a question of an internationally known method of treatment that was altogether harmless.
DR. BOEHM: In connection with the implantation of synthetic glands I submit HPO 10 and 11, both excerpts from scientific publications. These are only two of the many publications in this filed, and which describe implantation as one of the methods of hormone therapy. I submit an excerpt from Clinical Endocrinology, as Poppendick Exhibit, No. 11, to be found on page 27. I should like to read a part of this excerpt:
"Excerpt from A Jores "Clinical Endocrinology" (Klinische Endocrinologie".
"A manual for physicians and students by Arthur Jores, Dr. med.
habil./Hamburg.
Berlin, Published by Julius Springer, 1939, page 300:
Therapy with sex hormones.
a. Physiological preface.
.....
Some years ago, by the clarification of the chemical constitution of the sex hormones, the way was opened for their synthetic production, it did not take long until synthesis was achieved, thus opening a large and new filed for therapy.
....
.....
There can be no doubt that by means of chemically pure sex hormones it is possible to compensate fully for the functions of the gonads both in the castrated animal and in the human castrate....." I Omitted reading 12 lines, and take up in the middle of the thirds paragraph at "The Implantation of Crystals."
"The implantation of Crystals, first introduced by Parkes and Deanesly and later repeated by Schoeller and others, proved that the better effect of esters is due to the above mentioned factors. Crystal implantation shows a clear superiority of the pure substance compared with the esters. In the experiments made by Schoeller and Gehrke, the implantation of 1 mg testosterone had a 14 higher effect than the same dose given by injection. The effect of crystal implantation also lasts much longer; the maximum effect is reached later;....."
Now, page 304:
"Therapy with male sexual hormones.
"Treatment by means of the preparation concerned has, besides the effect on the sexual sphere, a number of other effects.
"First there is a general stimulation, particularly in the case of aging persons."
I begin now, with the last paragraph of this document:
"On cases of eunuchoidism and weakness of potency, not of a purely physical nature, the necessary dose is generally smaller. In such cases, Venzmer for instance recommends 5-50 mg of testosterone propionate per dose and a total of about 10 injections. ..... ..... The improvement in general conditions, physical elasticity, and the feeling of physical fitness are particularly noticeable. Eroticism (Eretisierung) does not occur. These observations indicate therapeutic use of male sex hormones particularly in cases of senile complaints and premature impotence. Here, also, the results reported are very good."
Document HOP 11 is an excerpt form the "Schweizerische medizinische Wochenschrift", an article by Dr. Mueller. This is on page 29, and I put it in as Poppendick Exhibit No. 12 Here also I should like to read a few excerpts. I quote:
"Excerpts from 'Swiss Medical Weekly" (Schweizerische medizinische Wochenschrift' No. 25, 24 June 1944)."
THE PRESIDENT: Do you find it necessary to read any portion of this exhibit into the record? Is it not enough to refer to it as an exhibit?
DR. BOEHM: Perhaps I don't have to read it, but I should like to read one paragraph of about eight lines, This is on page 3, page 675, at page 31 of the Document Book.
"Page 675:
"Hormones bodies under high pressure (e.g. hydraulic) but solid single crystals in particular, will naturally offer longer resistance to the process of solution than loosely pressed substances..... ... With regard to its effect, the implantation of hormones is similar to the principle which could best be called 'Glandular prothesis'. As with the intact organ whose natural function is to be replaced (e.g. the replacement of the ovary by implantation of estradiol in the case of castration), the crystal, in an infinitesimal division, in a continious flow of small, so-to-speak physiological doses of hormones, has the same effect...Only thus can it be explained that with 'glandular' prothesis' Excellent therapeutic results can be obtained."
The originals of these exhibits, can, if you wish, be seen.
Q In the course of its case the Prosecution, aside from the experiments mentioned in the indictment, mentioned also blood coagulating experiments; you were not called particularly responsible for this, but I should nevertheless like to ask you, did you know about the coagulating experiments carried on in Dachau?
A No, I knew nothing of these polygal experiments.
Q Did you know the word "polygal" at all?
A The word I have heard somewhere or another.
Q Did you know that polygal was produced in the Ahnenerbe?
A That might have been mentioned once also, but I don't know any details.
Q If you heard that experiments were being undertaken with drug what would you have supposed that meant, that is to say you have though they were in any way clinical experiments?
A It never would have occurred to me to think of something that was not permissible for the testing of coagulants, as surgical rooms in a hospital provide that adequate material.
Q Document 614 was put in by the prosecution as Exhibit 245, English Document Book, 11, page 25, where there is mention of an article by Rascher on the use of Polygal 10 in the Munich Medical Weekly Rascher was accused of not having submitted this work to the Reich Physician for approval; did you see this manuscript?
A The manuscript or work by Rascher I never saw. If I had I should have remember it.
Q Furthermore, the Prosecution put in a report on the biochemical treatment of sepsis in which it is said that sepsis was induced artificially in a number of persons. This is Document NO-409, Prosecution Exhibit 249, English Document Book 11, page 57. Do you know this report that is here in question?
A No.
Q In Grawitz's papers there was a paper on artificial infection. This is Prosecution Exhibit 251 in Document Book 11, page 62, NO-984. Did you know about this case history?
A No, I did not.
Q And there is Document 114, Exhibit 324, page 13 of the English Document Book referring to biological warfare. This is a letter from Grawitz to Himmler and there is also mention of a memorandum in this letter. Did you know of this letter or of this memorandum, or did you have any knowledge of this question at all?
A No, I didn't know the letter, and I didn't know anything about the whole question.
Q Further you are accused under Point 4 of being a member of the SS. As a member of the SS did you take part in any excesses such as the prosecution of the Jews in '33 or '38?
A I never took part in any such excesses as a member of the SS.
Q In the course of the case the Prosecution mentioned many experiments that were either directly or indirectly associated with Grawitz. In view of your high rank would you not have known of these experiments?
A I had my rank as chief physician of the R. & S. Main Office, and my rank was proportionate to my position. You can draw no deductions from my rank with regard to my activities in Grawitz's office nor regarding knowledge of what happened in Grawitz's sphere. The doctors of the Rasse und Siedlungs Main Office were transferred to the Reich Physician, not so that they could work under the Reich Physician, but they were to continue to be active in the Rasse und Siedlung Office.