Q. No further questions. The witness may be withdrawn so far as I am concerned.
DR. MARX: (For Schroeder and Becker-Freyseng) BY DR. MARX:
Q. Your Honor, I ask permission to ask a few questions of this witness.
You just stated you know that Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher on orders from the Luftwaffe carried out experiments. How do you know this?
A. Rascher told me that himself.
Q. May I ask when he told you that?
A. As I remember it was 1942.
Q. Do you know the month?
A. No.
Q. Did you know that this Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher was transferred by Himmler from the Luftwaffe to the SS?
A. I found that out here from the documents.
Q. Did you know it at the tine, when Rascher gave you that information?
A. No.
Q. Did you know at that time he had already been working for quite a time in Dachau, or was he just beginning his intended work in Dachau?
A. Unfortunately I cannot tell you that.
Q. No further questions.
MR. HARDY: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: If there are no further questions of this witness, the witness maybe excused.
MR. HARDY: Your Honors, before the defense of Rudolf Brandt continues, Mr. McHaney wishes to address the Court:
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is excused.
MR. McHANEY: May it please the Tribunal, I should like to raise the questions with respect to the film "I accuse" which has been requested by the defense. It arrived, in Nurnberg a week or so ago, and since that date there has been a preview shewing of it both to the defense counsel and the Prosecution I say that this film "I accuse" has been previewed by both defense and prosecution.
I am quite confident that the film is entirely inadmissible in this suit and in this action, but I would like at this time to ask if Dr. Froeschman, or any of the other defense counsel, insist on making a formal tender of the film, the proper time for the objection would be on the occasion when it is offered, but unfortunately that would be entirely too late to be of any use, because the sound track of this film must be recorded on a disc, and then the interpreters interpret the German into English and make a running account of it in order to be able to permit the Court to follow the sound track in court when the film is exhibited, since this is a long and exceedingly dull film, which runs in the neighborhood of two hours and fifteen minutes, it will, of course, be a long and laborious job of interpreting this film, consequently I would like to raise my objection before that work is done, if there is any intention on the part of Dr. Froeschman to offer the film.
DR. FROESHMANN: I ask to be permitted to refer to these objections by the Prosecution this afternoon at the beginning of the session.
THE PRESIDENT: Tribunal will hear Council at 1.30 this afternoon about this matter, if any questions arises, one possible solution is that the Tribunal could view the film to determine its materiality. Either the entire Tribunal or portion of the Tribunal might be appointed to have a preliminary view of it. That matter may be presented to the Tribunal at 1.30 this afternoon.
MR. McHANEY: I think the Tribunal's suggestion is an excellent one because, of course, it will be impossible for you to rule on the matter, unless you wish to do so in a statement, to the Prosecution or the Defense. On the other hand it is very long, and as I think it is exceedingly dull. It is a fictional film, not a clinical film. Consequently you may wish to send a commission to view it.
THE PRESIDENT: It would give the court an opportunity to determine whether it had any probative value at all, even though it was in the German language would it not, Mr. McHaney?
MR. McHANEY: I think that you could very easily determine that Your Honor
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel for the defendant Brandt may proceed.
DR. KAUFMANN: I now ask your permission to call the defendant Rudolf Brandt.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Rudolf Brandt will take the witness stand.
JUDGE SEBRING: Please raise your right hand and be sworn: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. KAUFMANN:
Q. When were you born?
A. 2 June 1909 in Frankfurt on the Oder.
Q. Will you please briefly describe your career?
A. For three years I attended the Mittelschule in Frankfurt. I then attended the Reformrealgymnasium in ny hone town. This Reformrealgymnasium I attended until my graduation in 1928. My intended profession was that of becoming a stenographer in the Reichstag. A closed course of study was necessary to achieve this and, in addition, sufficient stenographic speed. I studied law in Berlin and Jena, and left the University after passing my doctoral examination in the summer of 1933. The theme of my doctor's thesis was a question of the law of authorship. I come from a rather poor family. My father was, first of all, a, locksmith with the German railroad and at the end he was a minor. I had to earn my way through college on a so-called working scholarship, but I have grateful memories of my parents who had considerable sacrifices on their own part and made it possible for me to attend the university and who also during my period of study gave me more pecuniary support than they were really able to. My first work on this working scholarship consisted of very laborious work as telephone stenographer in a newspaper office. From the beginning of November 1928 to the end of May 1930, I, although I was still a student, was being employed as official stenographer in the 'Ankete' Committee of the Reich Economic Council at that time.
After the examination in December 1933 I became telephone stenographer in the German Information Service but only for ten days. The Chief of the office Staff of the SS was at that time in search of a good stenographer. A friend of mine arranged the employment. My new employer had no difficulties in breaking my contract with the German Information Service (DNB). I began my new activity in the office of the Chief of Staff of the SS as clerk on the 11th of December 1933, with a monthly salary of 120 marks. About six weeks previous to that, I had entered the Allgemeine SS. I had already jointed Party in the year 1932. In January 1934 Himmler dictated a few letters to me when he was in Berlin for two or three days. Previous to that I had neither seen Himmler nor did I know anything about his personality. On the suggestion of his Adjutant, SS-Sturmbannfuehrer, and later SS-Obergrupennfuehrer, Karl Wolf, I went to the Reichsfuehrer's Headquarters in Munich, and I began my service on the 15th of February 1934 as clerk for Himmler and his three Adjutants. When in April of 1934 Himmler took over the Gestapo and went to Berlin he took me along. It was my job to take letters for Himmler and Wolf. Moreover, in the first three months, first three or four months, I had to answer the telephone in the anti-room and to announce visitors. Gradually the staff was enlarged. Roughly, from October 1934 on I wrote only for Himmler alone. This was when I was 25 years old. I took dictation and until roughly the end of 1934, I myself typed up the letters. However, after the files became more and more, I dictated, what had been dictated to me to a stenotypist. I began my service in the SS as an SS man. In 1944 I became Standartenfuehrer, after I had gone through all the subordinate ranks for some length of time or other.
Q. Witness, let no interrupt a moment. We want to make it clear what rank you had in the Allgemeine SS and in the Waffen SS.
A. In the Allgemeine SS I was Standartenfuehrer. This rank can be compared only in an exterior way with that of a Colonel in the Wehrmacht. And in the Waffen SS I was Oberscharfuehrer, that is to say, a rank that correspond roughly to the German Sergeant, or for that matter, the American Sergeant.
Q. Did you serve in the Waffen-SS?
A. Yes. In 1935 I went through a courst of training for four or five months in the Standarte Deutschland. Then in December 1940 I went through a short term course with the Standarte Westland, and from the end of March to the Middle of May 1941 I was with the Leibstandarte in the Greek campaign.
Q. No, please continue to describe your career in the personal staff.
A. About 1937 or 1938 for purely technical reasons I was called according to Table of Organization personal referent in the personal staff.
Q. What did this word "personal referent" mean?
A. The only reason for it was to give me some sort of title in the Table of Organization.
Q. We shall return to this, but perhaps you can Make it clear already whether this word "personal referent" had at any time any meaning of advisor?
A. Neither at the beginning nor at the end did it have any meaning of personal advisor.
Q. I am going to submit a sketch to you. You are simply to say whether it is accurate. You have heard what the witness Heine said about it. You are abbreviate this sketch if you wish to. I have already given this sketch Exhibit No. 1.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, is this the chart which was numbered Exhibit 2, Counts.
DR. KAUFMANN: It was Number 2, yes.
BY DR. KAUFMANN:
Q. Is this sketch correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you make this sketch? Draw it up?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you please tell us your last salary in your position as Personal Referent?
A. At the end I was paid as a civil servant, from 1940 on when I entered the civil service, and at the end I was receiving the salary of a Ministeriat (Ministerial Counsel.)
Q. How high was that salary?
A. It was somewhat more than 800 marks a month.
Q Did you have any other income?
A. In addition I received a supplement of roughly 175 marks a month from the Personal Staff. This arrangement was made because men in the staff leaders of the Waffen-SS and also members of the police - of the same rank, but with much less work to do, were receiving more than I was.
Q. You were also appointed a Ministerialrat?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, what was your function under that capacity?
A. From 1943 on - in the summer Himmler became Minister of Interior, and after his appointment he charged me to take care of the work in the so-called Ministerial Bureau or Office. This was, for all practical purposes, the liaison office between him and Staatssekretaer Dr. Stuckardt, respectively the Ministry of the Interior, since during the war these two offices had been kept separate.
Q. You just spoke of your salary which really was too low. Now, did you have any other income?
A. I had no property except that which, like any other careful person, I had been able to save through the course of the years and that, at the end, was eleven or twelve thousand marks. But I owned no real property nor automob nor anything else.
Q. Now, please describe the whole sphere of your work, the extent of it, and then describe any normal working day?
A. Let me add that I was never really officially appointed personal Referent. There was no document to that effect, and the position of Personal Referent it was first that of a referent, and then of a department chief, and the of a main department chief. My tasks in this position were to tell Himmler what letters had come for him, either in the so-called "important mail" namely, the mail that he read himself - or by reporting to him what letters and come for him or through reading him a part or the whole of a letter that was addressed to him. Secondly, I had to receive his instructions, taking them down in verbatim notes or in our line, which I then provided with a salutation and " conclusion and drew up in the form of a letter or a teletype. Thirdly, I had to receive instructions that were to be passed on immediately by telephone. Fourthly, I had to take care of conferences with SS men, the dependents of SS men, and with members of the civil population who had asked for an appointment with Himmler in order to present complaints, suggestions and such. The position of Personal Referent is probably not the same everywhere. It depends on the nature and character of he Personal Referent's chief.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the Tribunal notes that in this chart - Rudolf Brandt's Exhibit 2 - that in the fourth block from the left, in the lower Brandt is described as "Personal Department" (PERSONAL). In the *nth block from the left we find "Department Chief of Personal Staff" spelled the same way. In the tenth block we have again "personal Department". Now, in English we have two words "personal" and "personnel" which have a different meaning. The Tribunal would like to be enlightened as to whether the words contained in Brandt's Exhibit 2 - if any one of them should be construed as "personnel" or if they arc all properly translated in the word "personal".
MR. HARDY: May it please Your Honor, during my examination of the witness Meime I made a note in my chart that the ninth block and tenth block were to be changed to "personnel".
THE PRESIDENT: I made the same note myself but I am not altogether sure that counsel for both parties would agree that that is correct.
BY DR. KAUFMANN:
Q. Mr. Brandt, did you hear what the court just said?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what they are talking about?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you then, in a few sentences, clear this matter up. Would you like to have the sketch?
A. Thank you, I have it. The tenth block there is designated "Personnel Department". That was the department that took care of all personnel matters in the Personal Staff. The department in the block just ahead corresponds roughly to my job or to my specialty. Here are included the Personal Referent in the Personal Staff. In other words, the person who took care of personal matters involving the Personal Staff.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal now understands that Block 4, Rudolf Brandt, means Personal Staff, and that in Black 10, the word should properly be tra ted as "Personnel Department". In the German text of the chart before the Tribunal different words arc used. The translators will doubtless take note the different words - one translated "personal" and one translated "personnel BY DR. KAUFMANN:
Q. Thank you.
Please continue in your description of your position and of a normal word day.
A. All right. I just said that the Personal Referent depended on the nature and character of his immediate boss. At any rate, this designation was not chosen for myself nor did I have it introduced because my position was be important as to make it absolutely necessary. If that had been the case, then Himmler should have had to appoint me officially as his Personal Referent. Moreover, it would have been necessary, as in the case of all other Person Referents, for me to draw up my own letter-head with the expression "Reichsfuehrer SS" and underneath that the words "Personal Referent. Neither I nor any one else in the staff gave any thought to such an idea because nothing was changed in what I was doing. Moreover, both at that time and later I was aware of my limitations.
It was my job to take care of visits, complaints, congratulations, thanks, and so forth, that were directed to Himmler from the population and from the SS itself. Witness Heine has already testified that Himmler had given the senior 15,000 SS men the right to avoid regular channels and to turn to him directly, but independently of that there were enumerable visits from all members of the SS. I was also responsible for taking care of the congratulations and birthday presents, Christmas presents, Easter presents, presents when somebody was born, that Himmler sent out, also his regular gifts of books to higher SS men and later to some of the Wehrmacht generals. Furthermore, I had to supervise the numerous welfare measures that Himmler arranged for in various local branches of the SS, Particularly in connection with the deaths in SS men's families. These were the things that fell under my real job. Mostly applications on the part of the SS men and civilians were not yet ready for an immediate decision on Himmler's part. It was necessary to ask questions, to inquire into details, or to find the attitude that the superior or some official office had toward any particular matter. Himmler instructed me only to submit all such letters to him after all doubtful matters had been cleared up. Also the correspondence in connection with Himmler's many God ch.ild.ren tC'k un a great deal of my time. Also letters to congratulate mothers of SS men who were having their second, third, or fourth child during the war. I sent the mothers of these children, on Himmler'-s orders, a telegram of congratulations, and also told them that they would receive as a gift from Himmler a box containing fruit juices for the mothers themselves, and that the children themselves would receive a porcelain candlestick, In almost all of these cases/these of children this one letter of congratulation led to the development of a copious correspondence. The mothers, whose husbands were most of them at the front, were greatly Pleased by Himmler's show of interest.
Q. Witness, let me interrupt for a moment. I believe you could be a little more brief in this and could concentrate on telling us what further fields you had to take care of in this job and then to emphasize to what extent you really finished off these matters and what function you had and what function Himmler had.
A. Himmler reserved for himself the right to decide also on natters which concerned the individual main offices. The witness Meine has already mentioned that there were twelve main offices and he also said with the exception of four of then correspondence from the other main offices went through my office to Himmler. The four exceptions were the SS Supreme Main Office (Fuehrungshauptamt), SS Judges Department, the Main Office Order Police (ORPO), and Security Police; whereas, the correspondence which I just mentioned was really my main field of work, I should like to characterize this second group of mail as the official and office nail. Then as a third category there is also the so-called alien nail, if I nay so characterize it. That nail included all natters of a strictly technical nature. For instance, reports and letters from the Chief of the Fernmeldewesen, other technical reports, letters, reports, suggestions from the Reichsarzt SS, and other Physicians in all fields of medicine, and also as regards experiments and research. All of these were natters that were completely alien to what went on in my actual field of work and were also alien to the regular inter-office nail. And in point of view of numbers of these natters I have just mentioned were negligible in connection with the others.
In this connection I should like to describe the normal correspondence with the WVHA and the Ahnenerbe, which is frequently mentioned and which occurs in the. documentation of this case. I should like to do this in order to prove that the letters were, in the first Place, very few in number, as compared with the other regular correspondence, and that also they formed an exception to the general rule. For example, correspondence was carried on with the WVHA on such subjects as how to prepare fruit juices.
Q. Witness, I have to interrupt you again. Please limit yourself to telling us to what extent you participated in the correspondence that was really a part of your office, and to what extent you had anything to do with the research and experiments.
I think it is correct that you should tell the Court just what your relation was to these various departments or "branches.
A. In this connection I should like to mention a collection of statistics in order to make this situation more or less clear. Among the documents of the Prosecution I listed roughly 113 matters that are associated with either Himmler's name or my own. Of these 33 were directed to Himmler and written by him. Directed to me and. written to me were 64. Moreover, six of the documents are in there which I received from other offices for my attention. The other 10 must be separated from the 113 because they were not any special matters but copies of Himmler's letters which I had to submit on his orders. If one has heard during the course of these proceedings from the prosecution how one occurrence after the next is brought into association with me, and then after one read the documents one would get the impression that in these events and occurrences that these matters were the central point of my work, as if that was the only thing I concerned myself with. However, the opposite is the truth because these matters lay outside my real field, of activity. In the years 1938 and 1939 statistical data were drawn up in the personal staff in regards to matters that were worked on in the personal staff, in other words, who worked on what. It was ascertained that my department did by far most of the work with regard to mail. Even at that time the number of outgoing letters from my department was roughly three to four thousand a month, and in some months more than four thousand. The witness Meine has given statistics for the years after that.
I would like to mention only an average number of 3,500 letters a month. Compare that with the 113 documents which were here mentioned, in order that you yet a clear picture of just what the relationship is here. For the years 1941 to 1944, you can see that with this monthly average of 3,500 outgoing letters that the total rose to 160,000. Now compare this number 160,000 with the number 113. In this comparison down through the individual years you conceive more or less the following: in 1942, or rather 1941, 42,000 outgoing letters to which you must compare five documents in the document book: 70 documents in the year 1942 compared with 42,000 outgoing letters in 1942; as I said 1943, 20 documents in the document hock against 42,000 outgoing letters and the same number is true for 1944.
Now I don't want to break this down according to every month, but let us take a lock at the four months during which the largest number of documents appear in the document bock. For August, 1942 we will take an average of 3,500 outgoing letters cf which there arc twelve documents in the document book. In April and October of 1942 a monthly average of 3,500 outgoing letter as compared with 10 documents for each month. In September of 1942 3,500 monthly average versus nine. I believe that these numbers prove how far these matters really lay from my real sphere cf work and what a minimum role they played in point cf view cf numbers.
THE PRESIDENT: During the morning recess, counsel may advise his client as to the essential matters which are material to this inquiry and in which the Tribunal is concerned and how to state these matters as briefly as possible.
The Tribunal will now be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. KAUFMANN: Mr. President, I was just being told that I am to be shorter in conducting my examination; and I shall certainly adhere to this and respect the wish of the Tribunal. I ask you to take into consideration, however, that I intended to get finished today at any rate.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, the remarks of the Tribunal were not intended as a reprimand to counsel at all. Neither is it the desire of the Tribunal to limit in any wise this defendant or any defendant in the presentation of evidence pertinent and material to his defense.
BY DR. KAUFMANN:
Q Witness, you were saying before, when describing your sphere of work, that medical research work did not belong to it. These matters were alien to your task; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Well, how can you explain that in the case of a number of documents your name can be found under such documents? Had your particular position in the office of Himmler anything to do with it, or was it a decisive factor that you yourself were informed about these matters?
A The latter wasn't the case in any way. The reason that these alien things came to me varies. In addition to a number of other affairs, Himmler was very interested in medical matters. Whenever physicians approached him or whenever they were recommended to him, he personally established contact with them or referred them to Reichsarzt Dr. Grawitz, who was then ordered to give Himmler a report. This occurred orally very frequently; and in some other cases it was done by way of writing. Still another reason for that, I would say, was the fact that whenever Himmler conducted conferences, he often called me into his office rather than call his secretary, in order to give me some order regarding a telephone conversation in the presence of his visitors, sometimes to dictate a teletype to me, or told me how to dictate a letter to my secretary.
Beyond that he would often say to the visitor, "Whenever you have any questions to put to me of a material, personal, or factual nature, just write to Dr. Brandt or give him a call.
He can always be reached and can inform me immediately. On principle, every official conference of Himmler was concluded by Himmler's asking about the personal affairs of his visitor. He asked him about the state of his health, about the members of his family, about his economic situation, and so forth. At these times I was also called in to his office and received orders, which ran something like this. -- I think I mentioned these orders before; and I won't have to repeat them now. Repeatedly directives were given in order to supply additional funds for vacation expenses; or in a case where any visitors had not had any children from their marriage, I was to give Prof. Knauss' address in Prague to those visitors.
Q Witness, with reference to the sphere of medical research, the field which is under indictment here-- did you have any authority to issue directives?
A I neither had a right to issue orders in the medical sphere nor in any ether sphere. I was never in a position to make my own decisions even in my own sphere of work. Whatever went out to various agencies could be traced back to a decision by Himmler, a decision which he reserved himself in every case.
Q Did you at any time or at any opportunity develop your own thoughts and materialize your own decisions with reference to human experiments? May be I can formulate it in a different manner. Did you ever originate the thought in your brain to undertake experiments on human beings?
A I would never have arrived at any such idea.
Q witness-
A Especially since I never dealt with scientific questions for lack of interest.
Q Did you at any time speak to Rascher? Did you ever discuss details with him with reference to experiments on human beings?
I did speak to Rascher a few times but never about human experiments which he intended to carry through.
Q Do you maintain the same statement with reference, to Dr. Ding-Schuler
A I never knew Dr. Ding-Schuler.
Q Is the same true of Prof. Gebhardt? Did you ever discuss any details with him at any one time? Did you ever speak to Prof. Gebhardt about barman experiments at all?
A I spoke neither to Prof. Gebhardt nor to any ether person about experiments on human beings.
Q And that holds true of the defendant, Wolfgang Sievers?
A Yes, that is true in the case of Sievers.
Q And how about Prof. Hirth?
A I saw Prof. Hirth once or twice when he visited Himmler. Beyond his introduction, I didn't speak to him.
Q Could you say the same thing about Prof. Hagen?
A I did net knew Prof. Hagen. I don't remember having had any exchange of correspondence with him. The official letters which I had to send to the respective persons by order of Himmler I am not considering when making that statement about discussion, for in these cases I acted according to an order and directive of Himmler which I transmitted.
Q Now, Mr. Brandt, in the document books there are a number of documents to be found which are marked secret. Be it that there were ordinary secret matters, top secret matters of military secret matters. Now when working on those matters, by dictating a letter or by giving a signature, did that always happen by the express order of Himmler?
A Only by order of Himmler. I couldn't sign in any other manner.
Q Would you maintain that your activity, as for instance by giving signatures with reference to medical matters, could not be evaluated in any other way than the mere work of a stenographer, of a passive co-worker?
A In my opinion, it can not be evaluated in any other way, since I neither have any expert knowledge nor am I acquainted with the connections of all these affairs. I only transmitted what Himmler dictated to me or what Himmler told me about.
Q Could you at any time avoid to carry out Himmler's orders without endangering your life?
AAccording to what was customary, that would not have been possible.
Q Now, witness, would you please describe as exactly and shortly and briefly as possible how your daily work with Himmler was carried on? Say, at first, when did your work start? When did you end it? How many hours a. day did you work?
A My working day started mostly before seven o'clock in the morning -since I was in the habit of getting up very early. Himmler, on the other hand, worked until late at night. He worked , as a rule, until two o'clock in the morning. And only when he finished his day, then my day could come to an end, too. In this manner I worked for fifteen to sixteen hours per day, on the average, no matter whether it was Sunday or weekday.
Q Did you ever get any vacation?
A Yes, but for the years 1939 and 1940, where there was a pause of almost two years, I was sent on vacation every year for four weeks.
Q And then tell us more about the working day. How did it continue?
A The manner has already been described and I don't have to repeat it in detail. In the morning. I had until nine thirty to review the work of the preceding day, and to dictate one letter or another. At nine thirty the courier arrived and then the mail had to be sorted out for Himmler, which he had to have on his desk.
Professor Gebhardt recently said that the courier arrived at night. I just wanted to explain that this varied at the different headquarters. As a rule, the mail arrived in the morning since we were at the East Prussian headquarters. In the West, on the other hand, mail only arrived at night. Himmler, as a rule, got up at ten o'clock in the morning after having slept for eight hours. He had breakfast very briefly and my presence was demanded. During these few minutes no official matters were discussed. He often dictated teletypes or letters during that period of time and then he shaved. During these fifteen to twenty minutes I had my own opportunity to report about my mail of the day. This was a habit which had crystallized from the very early trips during peacetime, and it became a permanent institution in the case of the field headquarters.
Subsequently I dealt with the orders which I received in the meantime, and I was currently called into Himmler's office from morning until late at night in order to receive orders for telephone conversations, teletypes, letters, etc. In addition to this work I had to deal with conferences with visitors, conferences with my own officials, letters had to be dictated, and in this manner the day passed very quickly.
Mealtimes were kept very short, perhaps thirty-five to forty minutes, lunch and dinner, and when the time had come after dinner for everybody else to relax, to read a book, the work continued for Himmler and that meant that it had to continue for me, too.
Q. And now we come to the discussion of the outgoing mail, and I am going to speak about a number of document books. Tell me quite generally how the outgoing mail was handled. Himmler, of course, signed a number of letters during the day, but they were only very few. Most signatures were given by you and Meine, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now if you are looking at these documents whereupon you find your signature, how can you explain that your signature can be found underneath these documents, when you consider the contents of these documents as being criminal? Can that be explained by the fact that the lack of time played a part, or can you give us another explanation?
A. The witness, Meine, stated already yesterday that Himmler only signed his name at the very last moment. The courier could only get to the train in time by racing at the risk of breaking his neck. When Himmler finally made his signatures, there was no longer any tine to read his letters. I could only limit myself to sign the copies which my secretary submitted to me in all haste. I had no misgivings in that respect since Himmler had signed the original.
Q. Witness, now a number of your letters have the initials "BR," and I would say that this was your initial. Must I conclude therefrom that these letters were directly dictated by you, or could it have been possible, considering Himmler's habit of working, that Himmler dictated these letters personally and that this file note was used in addition to that so that it today appears as if these letters had really originated from you?
A. That happened, too. Generally, however, the situation was where I received dictation from Himmler and then transmitted these notes to my secretary
Q. Can you recall where Himmler dictated teletypes and where these teletypes were not signed with his name but with somebody else's name and where the other person only received knowledge of his signature after the teletype had already left?
A. Yes, that happened to me on frequent occasions, and I am convinced that there are yet a number of teletypes of which I don't know anything even today, although they do bear my name.
Q. Witness, I shall now discuss a few letters coming from the Document Book No. 6. This document refers to sterilization experiments. When putting questions to you regarding these documents, I am interested in establishing whether or not you had known the contents of these documents, whether you had read these documents. I am referring to the letters which you wrote at that time. I am interested in knowing whether you had recognized the seriousness of the letters which you had signed. I will ask that the document volume No. 6 be handed over to you. I ask you to turn to page 6 in the German book, and page 5 in the English book. It is Document 036, Exhibit 143. This is a letter given you by Himmler on the 10th of March, 1942, at the Fuehrer Headquarters. The letter is directed to Pohl and was signed by Himmler. Then a copy of that letter was transmitted by you to Grawitz.
In this letter Himmler discusses the possibility of experiments on human criminal persons,as he says, who had to be sterilized in any case.
Do you recall that document?
A. I don't remember the document. This has been submitted to me during the trial, and I assume, that since it bears my signature, I must have seen it at that time.
Q. Now would you please look at page 13, Document No. 044, Exhibit 151, and you will find a file notation with your signature. This notation refers to a conversation which you had with Pohl, and it says in the second but last paragraph -- I quote:
"The Reichsfuehrer also requests that with the ingredients of this plant on hand, sterilization experiments should now in any case be carried out in the concentration camps."
So you remember this file notation and the entire event as a result of which it was made?
A. No, the same applies here as in the previous document. In that case one might add that the word "consultation" cannot be accepted in its usual meaning. I was not in any way on the same level as Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. I had to approach him as an Obersturmbannfuehrer, and as was true in all these cases, I had directives of Himmler recorded in my note book which I read to Pohl. Therefore "a consultation" would be a wrong way of expressing that.