It happened without any particular case or without indicating any certain procedure. Whether he came back to that subsequently or during the war, I do not remember. At any rate, it did not occur in my presence, but I am of the conviction that he did that especially in view of the personality of Himmler.
Q. And you state it is also your conviction that this must have been so because even Himmler would hot have undertaken such things without being covered by Hitler; is that right?
A. I only drew a parallel with Martin Bermann and I should like to remind you about my discussion regarding Pastor Niemoeller. It is possible that the discussion between Himmler and the Fuehrer could have been carried on in a similar manner. It may well have been that the Fuehrer said something like that quite generally and Himmler then understood it and applied it to some specific case and then on his own initiative continued to deal with it.
Q. Herr Brandt, I know you have boon interrogated many times, but I would like to ask you if you remember having been interrogated on this same subject, about a Hitler order, in August of 1945 possibly by a British officer.
A. I don't know that any order went from Hitler in that form in 1945.
Q. You did not understand me. I asked you if you remember having been interrogated by a British officer in 1945 on this same subject of medical experiments?
A. In August of 1945; it is possible.
Q. Here is a report I have in front of me, it indicates that you stated: first, that Hitler himself had ordered condemned criminals to be used for medical experiments; and secondly, that nobody should be punished for obeying orders; is that an accurate account?
A. I can do nothing with these two sentences.
THE PRESIDENT: Has the witness been shown a copy of this Document in German?
MR. MCHANEY: If it please the Tribunal, I don't attach such importance to the evidence necessary and I will just withdraw the question. This is simply an interrogation report, it is not a verbatim report of the interrogation. It shows March 24, 1945 by Major Gill. It was done by an organization known as FIAT, a Field Intelligence Allied Technical organization.
THE PRESIDENT: Where was it made?
MR. MCHANEY: At a camp known as Dustbin rather close to Frankfurt. I am not sure of the exact name of the city, however, we will not offer this Document in evidence. I am simply trying to refresh the witness' recollection and I am asking him now about this Hitler order and whether or not it was actually issued.
THE PRESIDENT: The counsel can ask the witness if he knows of any such order and if he remembers any such order at this time.
BY MR. MCHANEY:
Q. Herr Brandt, have you told us all you know about this order of Hitler, about which you stated it was your conviction that it was issued; do you know any more about it than you have already told us?
A. I don't know an order in that form. With reference to this interrogation of Captain Gill, which possibly originated after a number of discussions, it must be a formulation which he made for his own purposes, namely, a repetition of what I have said. These questions were put to me at the same time that the chart originated about my functions and physicians when only partly true statements were made.
Q. Herr Brandt, did you know a Keitel order that the army was to have nothing to do with experiments on human beings?
A. No, I don't know that order either.
Q. If he did not in fact issue such an order, how do you explain that Keitel knew that medical experiments were being carried out on human beings and that you did not?
A. This possibly is similar to yesterday's remarks about mental institutions in the eastern territory. Those things could have been discussed during conferences on the situation in connection with the daily reports on the various illnesses, etc., and at such opport unities these experiments could well be mentioned. I assume that if Keitel received reports through suck a channel, I think it is quite possible that any results of suck experiments wero reported to Himmler to Hitler and this was done in connection with such conferences on the situation; therefore, Keitel got to know about it. Those conferences on the situation were usually of great length and they often lasted for hours and Hitler himself often spoke for hours. During suck an opportunity it is quite possible that some such thing was mentioned.
Q. Herr Brandt, I want to remind you of document No. 1309.
THE PRESIDENT: Before proceeding with the examination of the witness on these documents, the Tribunal will recess.
( A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Court Room will please find their scats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
May it please Your Honors, the defendant Oberheuser has availed herself cf the permission granted earlier today by the Tribunal and is, at the present time, absent from the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: The Secretary General will note for the record the absence of the defendant Oberheuser pursuant to excuse by the Tribunal.
BY MR. McHANEY:
Q Herr Brandt, I have handed to you Document No. 1309 which has been introduced as Prosecution Exhibit 326. It concerns biological warfare and is an official note signed by Klieve concerning a conversation with Professor Blome on 23 February 1944. Do you find the sentence about the middle of the first paragraph where it says: "By request cf Field marshal Keitel, the armed forces arc not to have a responsible share in the experi ments since experiments will also be conducted on human beings"?
A Yes, I have found the sentence.
Q Keitel was not a doctor, was he?
A No.
Q How do you explain that Keitel, Chief of the High Command of the Wehrmacht, would knew about such a matter as this while you state to this Tribunal that you have no knowledge of systematic use of human beings in medical experimentation?
A I assume that Keitel obtained this knowledge from the discussions of the situation, which have already been mentioned, at which these things were apparently also discussed. These were basic questions of biological warfare which were certainly discussed in this connection.
Q But, Herr Brandt, isn't it perfectly obvious from this sentence that Keitel had some knowledge of previous experimentation on concentration camp inmates and that ho know that these biological warfare experiments were something of the same sort and he know that he did not wish to be associated with them himself and so issued this order?
A. It must be added that this was a report on a discussion between Klieve and Blome. It is assumed in the question which is asked of me that what is stated here corresponds to the facts. I believe one should ask Hr. Klieve and possibly Mr. Blome about this discussion.
Q Herr Brandt, you have been asked by your own counsel about supporting this Posen Institute of Blome's which was concerned with questions of biological warfare. Was this vast support which you assured Blome you would give simply in the nature of helping him with construction problems?
A It was only help in regard to construction questions, not in connection with biological warfare, but in view of his institute which he intended to. establish there for the General production of vaccine, I nay call it that. I said that the inquiry to which this document refers was between Blome and me by telephone and that a question of biological warfare and possibly any further resulting human experiments were certainly not discussed by telephone. I have also said that I wrote a letter at that time to the construction office which was helping in these natters in the Ministry for Armament and War Production and asked that Mr. Blome night be helped to establish his institution. In this respect, in connection with human experiments and so forth, there was nothing more between me and Blome.
Q What was this serum that he was to manufacture?
A I cannot say exactly what kind of serum it was. I only remember an institute in which he wanted to make arrangements to be able to produce various scrums. Fr n later discussions I knew that he considered developing various substitute products, but I cannot give any exact information about that either.
Q Will you look at the second sentence in the second paragraph where it starts, "In particular, Professor Blome sees an obstacle in the employment of the Chemical Warfare Section of the Army Ordnance Office. Therefore, he wishes to make the suggestion to the Reichs Marshal and Generalarzt Professor Brandt that the association be dissolved and he be permitted, not through the interposition of the Chemical Warfare Section of the Amy Ordnance Office, to requisition airplanes for experimental purposes directly from the Air Force Ministry."
Why should he mention your name in connection with a suggestion that the Association Blitzarbeiter be dissolved?
A I do not know. Perhaps he himself will be best able to say why he did that. He certainly did not report the matter to me, and I could even assume that he did not report it to the Reich Marshal. The name, Blitzableiter, I learned of for the first time through this document, 1309, itself. I never heard it before.
Q Did you have any connection with this chemical warfare section?
A Chemical warfare? With the chemical warfare section I had a certain amount of connection under the anti-chemical warfare program which began in 1944. It was a testing station for the necessary defense materials, and in connection with Luftwaffe Ministry's own testing stations, but it was certainly a different group of people who worked on these matters than the ones connected with this matter.
Q Well, Herr Brandt, I rather thought that you had something to do with chemical warfare and Lost problems before Gearing's order of 1 March 1944. How long were you connected with this chemical warfare section of the Army Ordinance Office?
A There was a Colonel Hirsch, whom I believe I met for the first time in the middle of March '44. I did not know him before then.
Q Well, Herr Brandt, this document is dated 23 February 1944 and I must assume that you were therefore interested in chemical warfare problems before the order of 1 March 1944 that has already been mentioned in the record?
A I have already said that this question was certainly outside of that. The decree, because of which Mr. Sievers visited me at that time, it was dated 1 March. In my opinion the question of Blitzableiter and my connection with the Blitzableiter is to be traced back to Blome's idea, who approached me about his general institute, and the reference that he wants to report to the Reich Marshal and Generalsarzt Dr. Brandt that the association will be dissolved and so forth has no justification in my opinion, has no basis in fact. Mr. Blome could not have had any reason to think that I had anything to do with the central office for the "W H Prufstelle 9" before that, and I myself do not remember that I met these gentlemen for any other reason.
Q Herr Brandt, did you have any connection with any experiments with gas prior to 1 March 1944?
A In the fall of '43 I was informed about general laboratory experiments which a Professor Bickenbach had made. These were experiments such ashed been done in Strasbourg and I believe in Heidelberg too, and these are the only ones which occur to me in this connection. I also know that I no longer remember the date I was informed in a conversation that experiments had been conducted on cadets in the Military Medical Academy, but those are tilings which had nothing to do with the problem of "W H Prufstelle 91.
Q How did it come about that Bickenbach's experiments were reported to you? What interests did you have in his gas experiments?
A I had no interest in his gas experiments. I met Bickenbach for another reason, for a different reason, and then when we met again he informed me about what he had done.
Q And what did you do with respect to Bickenbach's reports? Did you have any other association with him?
A Later I helped him to arrange a laboratory in Strasbourg.
Q And that's the laboratory we heard some mention about from one of the witnesses from Strasbourg, was it not, Herr Brandt?
A I assume that it was the same one.
Q Do you recall that the witness Schmidt testified that there were rumors in Strasbourg that Bickenbach was experimenting with gas in one of the old forts ?
A Yes, I remember that.
Q Do you also recall that he said that those rumors included the use of human beings by Bickenbach?
A No, I do not remember that from the testimony of the witness Schmidt, and it might have been a rumor, I don't know, but it is improbable since Bickenbach himself had approached me on the question of animals and I myself made every effort to get suitable experimental animals. And I do not believe that the fact that animal experiments are conducted justifies the conclusion that animal experiments are conducted in order that human experiments may be conducted.
The problem is rather of the opposite sort. Animal experiments are conducted because one is convinced that they are right in themselves and can lead to a result.
Q Did you ever visit Bickenbach's experimental station in Strasbourg?
A I do not know that he had an experimental station in Strasbourg. I looked at an electrical apparatus in Strasbourg, the cyclotron. I believe it was one of the only ones of tins type what we had in Germany; it was finished but it was not used.
Q Do you deny any knowledge that Bickenbach did experiments on human beings with gas?
A He conducted animal experiments and he approached me expressly in order to obtain animals. I was only able to help him to a limited extent. It was very difficult for the to obtain animals, and before I met him, Bickenbach had only conducted animal experiments. The question of human experiments was something which was not discussed at this time. The experiments which he had begun, before the war I believe he wanted to continue, and these experiments were significant bug only in rather theoretical beginnings.
Q But so far as you know Bickenbach did not experiment on human beings?
A Bickenbach did not conduct any experiments on human beings.
Q Why were you. so interested in Bickenbach's work that you went to considerable trouble to secure experimental animals for him?
A. The task which he had set himself was a special one and it seemed quite justified to support this work. I was only able to help him in the year 1944 after he himself had established this laboratory for himself.
Q Let's look again at the document before you, 1309? at the bottom of the second paragraph we find the language: "Especially necessary is and examination of our vaccine, the pestilential virus, plague vaccine in particular. Experiments must, accordingly, be made on human beings. Furthermore certain Misconception concerning the effect of maximum doses of several poisons can be corrected only by experiments on human beings. As soon as Professor Blome has conferred with the Reich Marshal and Generalsarzt Professor Brandt, he will notify me."
Did Blome confer with you about these virus vaccine experiments on human beings?
A No.
Q Did he confer with you about the poison experiments?
A No.
Q Let's turn to the next page of the document; the memorandum dated 22 May 1944 directed to Blitzableiter. In the last sentence it says: "Furthermore a nebulizer with motor drive has been built which ssterilizes and disinfects the air in the room. The apparatus can also be used simultaneously for the purpose of decontamination. As soon as the various experiments have been completed the apparatus will be demonstrated to the association."
Herr Brandt, is that the apparatus in connection with the decontamination of poisoned water that you have previously mentioned in direct examination?
A. (Cont'd.) There is a difference in discussing the machine teds to decontaminate air and apparatus to decontaminate water.
Q Do you know whether a German law provides for imprisonment in concentration camps of criminals tried by ordinary German courts?
A. No.
Q You were a condemned criminal in April of 1945. were you not?
A Yes.
Q Sentenced to death for the alleged treason; is that right?
A Yes.
Q I assume that you do not regard your trial as a fair one -- that is the trial for treason?
A No, because the sentence had been established beforehand.
Q Herr Brandt, of your own personal experience with German criminal justice, must you not conclude that hundreds cf thousands of concentration camp inmates were improperly incarcerated and condemned to death?
A On the basis of my own experience I am convinced that that is so.
Q How many concentration camps have you visited?
A I did not visit concentration carps exactly; once I was with Hr. Dickenbach; I was outside the camp of Natzweiler where he had his animal station, and had set up an emergency laboratory which he wanted to give up and he wanted to show no what it was all about. On this occasion we were at the camp itself and we picked up some administrative official there who conducted us. Then, as far as I recall, it was during the war; I went through the camp Mauthausen, when the stone quarries were to be examined and the Fuehrer was in the neighborhood.
Q Were these the only two concentration camps you have ever been in?
A These were the camps which I saw.
Q Had you ever been in Saxon Hausen or Granienburg?
A I was in Oranion urge once before the war.
Q You were never there during the war?
A I think it was before the war; perhaps in August or July, 1939.
Q Have you ever been in Dachau as the witness Neff testified?
A No.
Q Have you ever been in Buchenwald?
A I was not in Buchenwald.
Q I am glad to hear you mention that you had been in Natzweiler in connection with Dr. Dickenbach; you neglected to say anything about that when we discussed Bickenbach a few minutes ago, and we will return to that subject a little later. Now, Herr Brandt, do you remember having been interrogated in my presence on 5 November 1946; at the interrogation-the interrogation you went over with your attorney last Tuesday afternoon; the document that was introduced in the record. That was Document No. 1730, Prosecution's Exhibit 441. I don't have a German copy to hand you right at oho moment, but I just want to review with you some answers you gave mo on that occasion, and to ask you then if you still maintain the correctness cf the answers you gave. The question was put to you to give us a grief statement of what you know concerning medical experiments on human beings. You answered: "There is nothing else I could say besides that which has already been recorded here and which was said in the course of the interrogation by the persons interrogated."
The next question was: "I only would like to know what you know about these experiments" Answer: "I only knew about the experiments of following this matter came to my knowledge only after I was arrested in day of last year" Question:
And what did you know before yon were arrested Answer: "Before my arrested in day of last year I know the matter Dr. Gebhardt and Dr. Wiseler emphasized, I refer to the question Mrugowsky anything else in The way of experiments did not come to my knowledge. I had no contact with any of the offices, institutions and persons which played a part therein, nor did I knew them previously. Herr Pohl and I met for the first time when he passed the death sentence on me as President of him Summary Court."
Question: "What I would like to knew is what you had to do with the experiments." Answer: "I had nothing to do with them."
Question: "What do you know about Mrugowski?" Answer: "I said that Mrugowski was attending this meeting and was explaining some problems concerning the decontamination of water."
Question: "Did you know before of any experiments being made on human beings?" Answer: "As I have already stated the matters were Gebhardt's."
Question: "Do you know that Gebhardt was making experiments on human beings previous to 1943?" Answer: "In 1943 he gave a lecture at the Military Academy. He spoke about experiments on human beings."
Question: "What did Mrugowski tell about experiments made on human beings?" Answer: "Mrugowski was only explaining matters concerning decontamination of water."
Question: "Were these experiments concerning decontamination ever made on human beings?" Answer: "I am of the opinion that people drank this water."
Question: "Has anybody else carried through experiments besides Mrugowski?" Answer: "That I do not know."
Question: "Do you know anything about low pressure experiments?" Answer: "No."
Question: "Do you know anything about typhus experiments?" Answer: "No."
Question: "Do you know anything abut bone experiments?" Answer: "No, I cannot say anything at all about that; I did not hear of these things."
Question: "Do you know anything about the Lest Experiments?" Answer: "No."
Question: "Do you know anything about the work in experiments at the University of Strasbourg?" Answer: "I heard about it once, but these were not experiments on human beings. Sievers went to me once only and told me about experiments on animals made by Prof. Hirt; it was a very short visit only. I talked to Prof. Hirt and he showed me microscopic slides of rabbits, but no word was uttered then concerning biological experiments on human beings."
Question: "But you told us that you had no contact at all with these SS people, and new you say that these people have Visited you." Answer:
"Seivers visited, me just once. That Prof. Hirt is an SS nan is not known to me to this day."
Q Her Brandt, do you have anything to add to what was stated in that interrogation, or to what has been so far stated by you in connection with experimentation on human beings?
A I should like to go back to these experiments of Pro. Hirt once more. The report of the findings cf the Final Report. I read, here carefully: If one is locking for the question of human experiments, one could got the impression that they definitely were made. If one considers the question from a chemical point cf view and wants to make his observations in that respect, then this question of human experiments, expecially in connection with concentration camps would not be recognized, When I visited Prof. Hirt I did. not talk t him about experiments on human beings; and after that I did not become aware of any fact that night indicate then.
Q Witness, I want to put a report made by Hirt to you. This is document NO 099 and was introduced as Prosecution Exhibit 266. Can you say whether this is the report which you received from Sievers?
A I assume that it is this report.
Q And you, I think, have already admitted that if one reads this report carefully, one reaches the conclusion that experiments were carried out with Lost on human beings; is that right?
A That is quite possible.
Q Have you also observed that mention is made of heavy, medium, and light wounds caused by Lost?
A Differentiations were made between the various types of wounds with reference to their severity, general symptoms and local symptoms.
Q You had mentioned in an earlier stage of the interrogation that you did not think that Lost experiments were dangerous. Does not this report indicate to you that some of the experimental subjects were rather severely injured?
A This report is not a report of findings about individual experimental subjects. It is a general report, from which one can conclude, however, that supplementing previous general experience and evidence, further experiments can be made. I have said that the Lost experiments, as generally conducted and as I knew them, as they have been described to me in the Military academy, are unimportant, at first painful local skin symptoms, which later heal. In the meantime I have seen literature on the subject which confirms this.
Q Well, Herr Brandt, you did read this report, and you got it from Sievers in April 1944, did you not?
A I read it later. At that time I merely received it.
Q Did you read it before you visited Hirt in Strasbourg?
A Yes, I no doubt read it before that.
Q And didn't you observe upon reading it, just as you have now observed here, that it was perfectly obvious that he had experimented on human beings?
A I did not examine the report to that effect. I examined it to see whether there was anything for me to do in connection with the result, and what seemed significant to me was the reference to vitamins.
Q Yes, it says, does it not, that the "organism stands the best chance of absorbing the damage caused by Lost if there is a large vitamin reserve in the body"? Didn't you further Hirt's experiments after reading this report?
A No, this final report had established the result, and at that time I attempted to create a certain vitamin reserve, seeing in that a certain protection. I did not support Hirt himself.
Q You deny that you and Rostock issued priority orders concerning Hirt's Lost experiments?
A I do not understand what you mean by "priority orders".
Q Did you issue any orders to any institution concerning Hirt's expert ments with gas?
A I don't know.
Q Herr Brandt -
A Do you mean any mention of Hirt's results or the fact that vitamin reserves were important?
Q No, I mean, did you issue any orders supporting research by Hirt with gas?
A I don't recall that I did. On the contrary, from a statement that has been made now that Hirt is supposed to have complained that I did not help him. I am not aware that I gave Hirt any special aid or special support of any kind. It might be that there was something in the Institute, since the name of Rostock was mentioned. It might be in connection with the general demands on the Institute from the University, addressed to Rostock, but I do not remember anything of that kind.
Q But you do not exclude the possibility that somewhere along the line there may have been some support by your office of Hirt's work?
A I don't know. I can only say that I do not remember anything of the kind. It might have been something to do with the question of vitamins. That might have been possible. I just said that I tried to create a vitamin reserve.
Q Herr Brandt, can it not be definitely concluded from the report given on the sulfanilamide experiments by Gebhardt that those experimental subjects were deliberately infected with gas bacillus and gangrene in order to test the effectiveness of sulfanilamide?
A If experiments were conducted with certain infections, they were certainly conducted, if sulfanilamide was used, therapeutically, in order to show the effectiveness of sulfanilamide.
Q Do you see any reason for the necessity of artificially infecting women with gas gangrene when you had thousands of German soldiers who had such infections?
A It might in such a case be a very precise question which caused such an experiment.
Q But do you see any reason now, or can you give us any reason why these experiments could not have been carried out on German soldiers who had been wounded?
A It was perhaps necessary because one wanted to have quite clear differentiations, definite conditions of the wounds. I have already pointed out once before that the question of sulfanilamide was a problem to all of us and that the idea, of having a wounded soldier accompanied, as it were, from the time he was wounded until he was healed is a solution, but that the comparative effect of sulfanilamide is more difficult -- the realization of the effect is mere difficult because the conditions of each wound are different. I could speak of these more easily if I knew mere precisely the events from the side of the people who actually carried out the experiments. The onesided presentation makes it difficult to judge because those who participated for example, Dr. Fischer, I know personally as human beings, and I am convinced that they would have been willing to Conduct such experiments only for definite reasons or under definite conditions. It was certainly not merely the desire to conduct experiments. It would perhaps be easier for me to answer the question when those who have participated in the sulfanilamide experiments have spoken themselves.
Q Witness, isn't it a fact that this Lost gas decree or chemical warfare decree which you received from Goering on 1 March 1944. concerned itself not only with gas masks, but also the treatment of wounds caused by gas?
A It referred to the apparatus against poison gas in general, That included decontamination including calcium chloride and other drugs.
Q But did it include medical therapy of gas wounds?
A It did not include therapy, but it included the materials for therapy.
Q Well, witness, how can it include materials for therapy such as drugs-I assume you have drugs in mind -- unless there has also been some study as to how effective such drugs and material are on wounds caused by gas?
A It did not include the studies. I said that originally it included only gas masks and that in the course of time the program was expanded* As far as the drugs needed for the treatment of gas wounds was not established only until 1944, the methods of treatment in general are the same as in the First World War and have not changed in principle. New gases have been added. The effectiveness of these new gases was not quite clear and special experiments were certainly necessary.
Q Can you suggest any reason why this decree of 1 March 1944, which you sent to Himmler, should have been forwarded to Grawitz and Sievers if it didn't concern Lost experimentation and gas experimentation?
A I certainly did not pass it on to Sievers and Grawitz. I only a approached Himmler. I have already said that I approached Himmler because the Reich Ministry of the Interior was competent for certain measures of air raid precautions, of the air raid police, and because I needed information on the need of air raid precaution apparatus. It was passed on to these two gentlemen by Rudolf Brandt, apparently because they misjudged the situation. He was presumably of the opinion that because I had passed on this decree as a doctor it was a medical matter. It was, in principle, not a medical matter but it was my task in the controlling of production.
Q Herr Brandt, I want to put to you an extract from the Sievers' Diary for 1944. This was Document 3546-PS, Prosecution Exhibit 123. On the 2nd of February 1944, Sievers made the following entry.
"Met Professor Bickenbach in Karls Ruhe and he put his research work under the control of General Commissioner Professor Dr. Brandt. Discussion with SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Hirt. Professor Dr. Bickenbach, without instructions from Hirt and Professor Stein contacted General Commissioner Professor Dr. Brandt concerning the phosgene experiments that were in Natzweiler with him. Commissions to be withdrawn. For our part, Natzweiler is to be closed."
Tell the Tribunal what "phosgene" is, witness.
A Phosgene is a chemical warfare agent in gas form which can be used in gas form.
Q What was the Professor Bickenbach doing with the research station at Natzweileiler?
A He had been given animals at Natzweiler and had conducted his animal experiments there. There was obviously a tense relationship between him and Hirt so that he wanted to disassociate himself from the group there. He asked me to help him and I did help him then to establish this laboratory which was independent of Natzweiler. It was near Strassburg. And there he wanted to resume his phosgene experiments and ha didn't begin to work -- later his work was broken off through the war conditions; about in September.
Q Herr Brandt, is it not a fact that Bickenbach was performing phosgene experiments on inmates of the Natzweiler camp?
A Bickenbach conducted animal experiments there.
Q What kind of animals did he use?
A He had dogs. I did not see the experiments there myself. I visited him. I saw cat experiments in Franzecki. I assume that there may have been cat experiments too. When I was there, that was in February; we were there only and about ten minutes and he showed me the kennels and the cages to give me an idea of the extent of this experimental station in Natzweiler; in comparison with what he intended to establish in Franzecki.
Q Bickenbach was a Strassburg University Professor like Hirt and Hagen, wasn't he?
A He worked at the Polyclinic in Strassburg, the Medical Polyclinic. Hagen was the hygienist.
Q was Dickenbach an SS man?
A I do not know that.
Q Do you know that the Strassburg University was in effect an SS University, don't you?
A No, I do not know that either. The only SS members that I know, according to the documents here, where Hirt himself was an SS man.
Q Witness, since we are talking about the Sievers' Diary of '44, I would like to put another entry to you, this one dated 1 June. "To Dachau, SSHauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Ploetner and SS-Unterscharfuehrer Eben. Answer of Inquiry concerning Polygol from Professor Rostock. By order of the Deputy of the General Commissioner for Medical and Health Matters." Do you know that Rostock got in touch with Sievers concerning polygol which had been developed at Dachau?